Python surpasses Perl in TIOBE index

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marcpe...@gmail.com

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Dec 4, 2007, 10:08:11 AM12/4/07
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This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
interested in this:

http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

Marc

George Sakkis

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Dec 4, 2007, 10:24:14 AM12/4/07
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Cool (assuming these numbers actually mean something), but this has
more to do with Perl's fall than Python's increase:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Perl.html.
Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

George

Duncan Booth

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Dec 4, 2007, 10:50:30 AM12/4/07
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George Sakkis <george...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

Given that the ratings are relative it may simply indicate that C++ is
standing still while the others run ahead.

Paul Rudin

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Dec 4, 2007, 11:07:14 AM12/4/07
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George Sakkis <george...@gmail.com> writes:


> Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

I don't really find surprising that low level languages lose ground at
the expense of higher level ones. The developer-time/run-time
trade-off tends to move in favour of higher level languages as
hardware gets faster and cheaper.

George Sakkis

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Dec 4, 2007, 11:46:28 AM12/4/07
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On Dec 4, 11:07 am, Paul Rudin <paul.nos...@rudin.co.uk> wrote:

Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
high level language (hell, some consider even C high level). I'd be
more interested though how well do these numbers correlate with actual
penetration (new projects, job openings, etc.)

George

Paul Rudin

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Dec 4, 2007, 12:03:54 PM12/4/07
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George Sakkis <george...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Dec 4, 11:07 am, Paul Rudin <paul.nos...@rudin.co.uk> wrote:
>> George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:
>> >http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html
>>
>> I don't really find surprising that low level languages lose ground at
>> the expense of higher level ones. The developer-time/run-time
>> trade-off tends to move in favour of higher level languages as
>> hardware gets faster and cheaper.
>
> Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
> high level language (hell, some consider even C high level).


I guess it's all relative.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HighLevelLanguage includes the words:

The term "High Level Language" was originally used to distinguish
things like FortranLanguage from things like assembly
language. Therefore, originally "high level language" very much
included Fortran, Basic, COBOL, Snobol, PL/I, and a little later, C.

Observing that such languages are not very high level compared with
e.g. Prolog, YACC, Lex, ML, Haskell, etc, some people started
calling the older high level languages "low level languages", or
qualifying them as "higher level languages", etc.


> more interested though how well do these numbers correlate with actual
> penetration (new projects, job openings, etc.)

I dunno, but I'm pretty sure that the number of Python jobs has
increased.

I don't think it's just about the "level" of the language tho',
e.g. in some ways the language (Common) Lisp is at least as "high
level" as the language Python and has certainly been around longer.
But the former lacks the same range of standard libraries for actually
getting stuff done and lacks a de facto standard implementation. (I'm
not trying to start a Lisp vs. Python flame war here.)

Lou Pecora

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Dec 4, 2007, 4:44:56 PM12/4/07
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In article
<7e117be5-4308-43ae...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
marcpe...@gmail.com wrote:

> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

But dreaded Ruby is coming up fast. Run Away! Run Away!

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

--
-- Lou Pecora

Lou Pecora

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Dec 4, 2007, 4:45:44 PM12/4/07
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In article
<75e8931d-87fa-45a3...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
George Sakkis <george...@gmail.com> wrote:

How about Visual Basic going up?

--
-- Lou Pecora

greg

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Dec 4, 2007, 7:18:11 PM12/4/07
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George Sakkis wrote:
> Well we Python folks are spoiled but for most people C++ counts as a
> high level language

Well, some parts are high-level, but it's full of very
deep elevator shafts for you to accidentally fall
into...

A truly high-level language also *doesn't* have low
level parts (or at least doesn't expose them unless
you explicitly ask it to).

--
Greg

Daniel Fetchinson

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Dec 5, 2007, 12:46:04 AM12/5/07
to pytho...@python.org


Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
attributed to?

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Python.html

Daniel Fetchinson

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Dec 5, 2007, 12:51:50 AM12/5/07
to pytho...@python.org
> Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
> attributed to?
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Python.html

It seems the huge peak has to do something with the huge dip in Java
at around the same period:

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Java.html

Chicken-or-egg problem I guess :)

Roy Smith

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Dec 5, 2007, 12:57:15 AM12/5/07
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In article <mailman.1928.1196833...@python.org>,
"Daniel Fetchinson" <fetch...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Anyone has an idea what the huge peak around the middle of 2004 can be
> attributed to?

There's a Q/A section at the bottom of
http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index which covers this:

Q: What happened to Java in April 2004? Did you change your methodology?
A: No, we did not change our methodology at that time. Google changed its
methodology. They performed a general sweep action to get rid of all kinds
of web sites that had been pushed up. As a consequence, there was a huge
drop for languages such as Java and C++. In order to minimize such
fluctuations in the future, we added two more search engines (MSN and
Yahoo) a few months after this incident.

Carl Banks

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Dec 5, 2007, 1:22:12 AM12/5/07
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On Dec 4, 10:24 am, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cool (assuming these numbers actually mean something), but this has
> more to do with Perl's fall than Python's increase:http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Perl.html.

I'd say that's even better news.

> Even more amazing is the rate C++ is losing ground:http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/C__.html

This might be the best of all.


Carl Banks

Deltantor

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Dec 5, 2007, 1:33:57 AM12/5/07
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Real programmers use brainfuck.

Kidding of course, I believe someone should use the language they like
and that fits the purpose of the program they are writing. All
programming languages have their ups and downs. Brainfuck is just all
downs :(

BlueBird

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Dec 5, 2007, 7:34:26 AM12/5/07
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I find Ohloh comparisons also useful:
http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?commit=Update&l0=python&l0_0=-1&l1=ruby&l2=perl&measure=commits

What it highlights is that the number of python programmer is growing
quicker than the number of perl programmers.

George Sakkis

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Dec 5, 2007, 4:18:40 PM12/5/07
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On Dec 5, 7:34 am, BlueBird <p...@freehackers.org> wrote:
> On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, marcpenni...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
> > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
> > interested in this:
>
> >http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> > Marc
>
> I find Ohloh comparisons also useful:http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?commit=Update&l0=python&l0_0=-...

>
> What it highlights is that the number of python programmer is growing
> quicker than the number of perl programmers.

Not necessarily; it shows that the count of monthly commits by open
source developers is growing, which might be mostly thanks to
relatively few dedicated committers rather than an overall increase in
the population.

Another interesing point is that the gap with PHP is narrowing too:
http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=&l0=perl&l1=php&l2=python&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update

George

Carl Banks

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Dec 6, 2007, 6:50:10 AM12/6/07
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On Dec 5, 4:18 pm, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 5, 7:34 am, BlueBird <p...@freehackers.org> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, marcpenni...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > This is *not* an attempt to start yet another Python-versus-
> > > AnyOtherProgrammingLanguage flame war, but I thought people might be
> > > interested in this:
>
> > >http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> > > Marc
>
> > I find Ohloh comparisons also useful:http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?commit=Update&l0=python&l0_0=-...
>
> > What it highlights is that the number of python programmer is growing
> > quicker than the number of perl programmers.
>
> Not necessarily; it shows that the count of monthly commits by open
> source developers is growing, which might be mostly thanks to
> relatively few dedicated committers rather than an overall increase in
> the population.

I think it's probably more to do with the opinion of version control
is held in by the Python and Perl communities.

Less pejoratively, Perl's main strength is simple throwaway or single-
task scripts that (paraphrasing the perl man page) require a bit more
complexity than sed or awk; these sorts of things don't really need
version control. Python is more geared to complex applications, so
version control comes into play a lot more. It's not a surprise that
Python would have more commits then, even back as far as 2000 when
Perl was the shizzle.


Carl Banks

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