Cookie fucking problem

[Nick the Gr33k]

Hello i having the following code to try and retrieve the visitor's
saved cookie form the browser.

[CODE]
# initialize cookie and retrieve cookie from clients browser
try:
cookie = cookies.SimpleCookie( os.environ['HTTP_COOKIE'] )
cookieID = cookie['name'].value
except:
cookieID = 'visitor'
[/CODE]

It works as expected except form the fact from when the visitor enters
my webpage(superhost.gr) by clicking a backlink of another webpage.

Then even if the cookie exists in his browser for some reason the try
fails and except take actions.

Can somebody explain why this is happening?

You can see this action yourself by hitting:

1. superhost.gr as a direct hit
2. by clicking superhost.gr's backlink from ypsilandio.gr/mythosweb.gr

You will see than in 2nd occasion another ebtry will appear in the
database here:

http://superhost.gr/?show=log&page=index.html

[Chris Angelico]

Oh! Now you have a quite different problem. I'm sure your email spam
will have plenty of offers from lovely ladies who are willing to
satisfy your needs, you really don't want to be getting intimate with
cookies.

And if that's not what you meant, then kindly refrain from posting
duplicate threads just to add profanity to the subject line. Thanks!

ChrisA

[Ben Finney]

Nick the Gr33k <nikos...@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello i having the following code to try and retrieve the visitor's
> saved cookie form the browser.

The fact that you've posted Python code does not make this a Python
question. Your issue is with HTTP cookies, as you have been told several
times.

This is irrelevant to the Python discussion group, yet you keep
clamouring here for attention. Please do not ask here for education
about HTTP again.

--
\ “I have yet to see any problem, however complicated, which, |
`\ when you looked at it in the right way, did not become still |
_o__) more complicated.” —Paul Anderson |
Ben Finney

[Yaşar Arabacı]

I didn't follow the thread, I am sorry if this is duplicate, but don't
catch all Exceptions, catch only the ones you expect, so that you can
identify unexpected errors:

cookie = cookies.SimpleCookie( os.environ['HTTP_COOKIE'] )

try:

cookieID = cookie['name'].value

except KeyError:
cookieID = 'visitor'

--
http://ysar.net/

[Mark Lawrence]

On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:

Buy a sex manual.

--
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

[Nick the Gr33k]

Στις 26/10/2013 5:34 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>
> Buy a sex manual.
>

No need, i can practice with your mother.

--
What is now proved was at first only imagined! & WebHost
<http://superhost.gr>

[Mark Lawrence]

On 26/10/2013 15:55, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
> Στις 26/10/2013 5:34 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>>
>> Buy a sex manual.
>>
> No need, i can practice with your mother.
>

An interesting combination of stupid, tight fisted and a necrophiliac.

[Nick the Gr33k]

Στις 26/10/2013 6:21 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
> On 26/10/2013 15:55, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>> Στις 26/10/2013 5:34 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>>>
>>> Buy a sex manual.
>>>
>> No need, i can practice with your mother.
>>
>
> An interesting combination of stupid, tight fisted and a necrophiliac.
>

Αντε απο εδω ρε αφιονισμενη πουτσοτριχα.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 26/10/2013 16:25, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
> Στις 26/10/2013 6:21 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>> On 26/10/2013 15:55, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>>> Στις 26/10/2013 5:34 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>>> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Buy a sex manual.
>>>>
>>> No need, i can practice with your mother.
>>>
>>
>> An interesting combination of stupid, tight fisted and a necrophiliac.
>>
> Αντε απο εδω ρε αφιονισμενη πουτσοτριχα.
>

I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
the longer it'll take you to get your website working. Did you ever
stop to think about that? Or are you too busy trolling hundreds of
other mailing lists in parallel with this? T

Thinking about my late mum I reckon she'd forgotten more about websites
than you've ever learned, and she knew nothing about them.

Keep wasting your time here moron, I'm really getting into top gear with
you now.

[Ned Batchelder]

On 10/26/13 11:21 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 26/10/2013 15:55, Nick the Gr33k wrote:

>> Στις 26/10/2013 5:34 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>>>
>>> Buy a sex manual.
>>>
>> No need, i can practice with your mother.
>>
>

> An interesting combination of stupid, tight fisted and a necrophiliac.
>

The only way to stop Nikos threads is to stop responding. Your replies
are part of the problem here. Please stop.

--Ned.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:27:03 +0300, Nick the Gr33k wrote:

>> Can somebody explain why this is happening?

Yes, anyone who reads the answer that was given the first time you asked
this question will be able to explain why this is happening. The answer
hasn't changed from the first time you asked, or the second time, or the
third time. And it will remain the same answer the next time you ask.

You can ask this question ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times,
and the answer will not change. Go back and read the responses from the
first time you asked. That was only a few weeks back. Read them. If you
don't understand the answer, feel free to point out which part of the
answer you don't understand. If you just repeat the question, you will
get the same answer again: read the answer given the first time you asked.


--
Steven

[rusi]

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:20:40 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
> I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
> the longer it'll take you to get your website working. Did you ever
> stop to think about that? Or are you too busy trolling hundreds of
> other mailing lists in parallel with this? T
>
>
> Thinking about my late mum I reckon she'd forgotten more about websites
> than you've ever learned, and she knew nothing about them.
>
> Keep wasting your time here moron, I'm really getting into top gear with
> you now.

I happen to be among those who find your humour funny, Mark including the appositeness of your first rejoinder on this thread, considering the subject title.

After that its tasteless and disgusting.
So...
If you want to be funny please desist
[If you want to be disgusting you may persist]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:34:23 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 26/10/2013 14:27, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
>
> Buy a sex manual.

Mark, please resist the urge to bait Nick with insults. As entertaining
as they may be, they don't actually help reduce the problem.



--
Steven

[Mark Lawrence]

I promise to stop baiting this complete and utter moron when I observe
that nobody on this group says a single word to him as that's the only
message that he'll understand. Any word to him from anybody and I
reserve the right to join in.

[Mark Lawrence]

Sorry me old son but my humour has developed over 40 years to cover how
naturally quiet and shy I am, it ain't gonna change now.

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 26-10-13 18:19, Mark Lawrence schreef:

> On 26/10/2013 17:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> I promise to stop baiting this complete and utter moron when I observe
> that nobody on this group says a single word to him as that's the only
> message that he'll understand. Any word to him from anybody and I
> reserve the right to join in.

I fear this strategy is not stable. Just suppose most people follow this
strategy but someone reacts to Nikos anyhow. Now suddenly a lot of
people feel they have the right to join in. And of course these
reactions will feed this feeling.

I understand you feel you don't have to keep silent if others aren't
but I wish your trigger would be less sensitive.

--
Antoon Pardon

[Zero Piraeus]

:

On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 04:27:03PM +0300, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
> [... the same thing, yet again, with added profanity ...]

Stop that right now. You have been told repeatedly:

1. That this is the wrong forum to address your problem.

2. What other avenues to explore to fix it.

3. To stop reposting the same question over and over again.

... and now you're adding expletives to the subject line of a post which
will be read in a workplace environment.

If you can't learn your trade, at least learn some basic respect for
others.

-[]z.

--
Zero Piraeus: coram publico
http://etiol.net/pubkey.asc

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 26-10-13 18:00, Steven D'Aprano schreef:

So? I haven't seen any reaction to Nikos reducing the problem. So if
that is your criterium, you should stop reacting yourself and ask
everyone else to stop reacting.

--
Antoon Pardon

[Stephan Vladimir Bugaj]

I rarely ever post here.

But I wanted to say that people responding to this Nikos troll makes reading this list a nuisance.

You've never ever been successful in convincing him to behave, and it's been going on for quite a while now.

I remain subscribed for occasional interesting new idioms and tips, but always have to sift through this nonsense.

And all of you who take the bait are as much a part of the problem as the troll.

Just ignore the guy.

S

[Mark Lawrence]

On 26/10/2013 18:23, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 26-10-13 18:19, Mark Lawrence schreef:
>> On 26/10/2013 17:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>> I promise to stop baiting this complete and utter moron when I observe
>> that nobody on this group says a single word to him as that's the only
>> message that he'll understand. Any word to him from anybody and I
>> reserve the right to join in.
>
> I fear this strategy is not stable. Just suppose most people follow this
> strategy but someone reacts to Nikos anyhow. Now suddenly a lot of
> people feel they have the right to join in. And of course these
> reactions will feed this feeling.
>
> I understand you feel you don't have to keep silent if others aren't
> but I wish your trigger would be less sensitive.
>

I wish I didn't have a combination of Asperger Syndrome, Chronic Fatigue
Syndrome and Clinical Depression but sadly I'm stuck with the lot :(

Regardless of what others (rusi?) said earlier I'll keep my sense of
humour going, it least that helps me to survive :)

[Ben Finney]

Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
> the longer it'll take you to get your website working.

Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it in
this forum.

--
\ “I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and |
`\ despise the groups they identify with and belong to.” —George |
_o__) Carlin, 2007 |
Ben Finney

[Ben Finney]

Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> I wish I didn't have a combination of Asperger Syndrome, Chronic
> Fatigue Syndrome and Clinical Depression but sadly I'm stuck with the
> lot :(

I wish you didn't have those. Please don't saddle this forum with the
result.

--
\ “And if I laugh at any mortal thing, / 'Tis that I may not |
`\ weep.” —“Lord” George Gordon Noel Byron, _Don Juan_ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 26-10-13 23:43, Ben Finney schreef:

> Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
>> the longer it'll take you to get your website working.
>
> Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it in
> this forum.

Would you mind telling this to others too. AFAICS Chris Angelico is just
as much baiting Nikos, as Mark Lawrence is. But I don't see you reacting
to Chris. So it seems you don't have a problem so much with baiting as
long as the baiting is done in a way you find acceptable.

Personnaly I don't see much difference between the two, so if you allow
Chris baiting Nikos, I don't see why Mark should hold back.

--
Antoon Pardon

[rusi]

Thanks for your contribution.
Hope you will stay for more interesting stuff -- like python -- questions or answers is fine.
See… when there's x% good stuff and 100-x% BS, we can all do our little bit to improve the statistics.

[Ben Finney]

Antoon Pardon <antoon...@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:

> Op 26-10-13 23:43, Ben Finney schreef:

> > Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it
> > in this forum.
>
> Would you mind telling this to others too.

I'm not in any special position of power here; I'm not beholden to
address every instance of bad behaviour or none at all. Any member of
this community can apply the same social pressure, and together we can
cover as many of them as we choose.

I have no particular objection to you responding to those instances of
bad behaviour that I've omitted.

--
\ “Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code |
`\ will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live.” —John |
_o__) F. Woods |
Ben Finney

[rusi]

On Monday, October 28, 2013 4:56:38 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> I'm not in any special position of power here; I'm not beholden to
> address every instance of bad behaviour or none at all. Any member of
> this community can apply the same social pressure, and together we can
> cover as many of them as we choose.

Democracy and all that is good stuff for arm-chair philosophising.
On this list, as in real life, everyone is equal and some people are more equal.
So…

I think you are more influential here than the majority out here
And you are using that to try to keep some order out here -- for which thanks
(from me at least)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 14:30:52 +0100, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 26-10-13 23:43, Ben Finney schreef:
>> Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
>>> the longer it'll take you to get your website working.
>>
>> Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it in
>> this forum.
>
> Would you mind telling this to others too. AFAICS Chris Angelico is just
> as much baiting Nikos, as Mark Lawrence is.

Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear. There is a difference between
the answer you want and the answer you need.

> But I don't see you reacting
> to Chris. So it seems you don't have a problem so much with baiting as
> long as the baiting is done in a way you find acceptable.
>
> Personnaly I don't see much difference between the two, so if you allow
> Chris baiting Nikos, I don't see why Mark should hold back.

Here's an analogy:

Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
Person B: "No. Clean it yourself. Here's the vacuum cleaner."
Person A: "CLEAN MY ROOM!!!"
Person B: "No. You made the mess, you're old enough to clean it yourself."

Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
Person C: "You're stupid and ugly and I hope you die!"

Do you see the difference yet?



--
Steven

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 28-10-13 00:26, Ben Finney schreef:

> Antoon Pardon <antoon...@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>
>> Op 26-10-13 23:43, Ben Finney schreef:

>>> Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it
>>> in this forum.
>>
>> Would you mind telling this to others too.
>

> I'm not in any special position of power here; I'm not beholden to
> address every instance of bad behaviour or none at all.

Fine. But if what people see, is that you address specific people
instead of specific behaviour then don't expect your addressing
to carry much weight.

> Any member of
> this community can apply the same social pressure, and together we can
> cover as many of them as we choose.

Yes and can be as effective as as a cow cathing rabbits.

> I have no particular objection to you responding to those instances of
> bad behaviour that I've omitted.

You are missing the point. I don't think it would be very effective if
I would start critisising people I don't like and wouldn't address the
same behaviour from people I am sympathic with. That would just turn
this group in tribal factions.

Personnaly I don't mind baiting but if I feel there grows some kind of
consensus that baiting is considered off limits I'll reframe myself
and may even help to enforce it. However when I see the addressing
of baiting is limited to specific people, then all I see is an
expression of personal dislike.

--
Antoon Pardon.

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 28-10-13 08:44, Steven D'Aprano schreef:

> On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 14:30:52 +0100, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> Op 26-10-13 23:43, Ben Finney schreef:
>>> Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> I could almost feel sorry for you. But the more of your time I waste
>>>> the longer it'll take you to get your website working.
>>>
>>> Feel free to occupy your time with baiting Nikos. But *do not* do it in
>>> this forum.
>>
>> Would you mind telling this to others too. AFAICS Chris Angelico is just
>> as much baiting Nikos, as Mark Lawrence is.
>
> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear. There is a difference between
> the answer you want and the answer you need.

Yes Chris is baiting. That he also provides contributions that are
helpful, doesn't contradict other contributions are baiting. It is even
possible for a helpful contribution to be baiting. If you know that a
generally helpful contribution, will probably just invite Nikos to
plead, insist, whine, ... that you solve the problem for him then you
are baiting him just as well.

>> But I don't see you reacting
>> to Chris. So it seems you don't have a problem so much with baiting as
>> long as the baiting is done in a way you find acceptable.
>>
>> Personnaly I don't see much difference between the two, so if you allow
>> Chris baiting Nikos, I don't see why Mark should hold back.
>
> Here's an analogy:
>
> Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
> Person B: "No. Clean it yourself. Here's the vacuum cleaner."
> Person A: "CLEAN MY ROOM!!!"
> Person B: "No. You made the mess, you're old enough to clean it yourself."
>
> Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
> Person C: "You're stupid and ugly and I hope you die!"
>
> Do you see the difference yet?

That difference is only important the first few times. If you already
suggested the vacuum cleaner countless times and you know that
suggesting the vacuum cleaner will result in a temper tantrum then
after a while, you suggesting the vaccuum cleaner is just as much
baiting. Sure it is more subtle and people who don't know the situation
may not see it, but for those who know what is likely going to happen
the difference is insignificant.

We all know that whatever answer you give to Nikos, that if it doesn't
completly solve his answer for him in a way he likes, he wil just
return and demand more. So limiting your contribution to information
that was already provided and which IHE didn't help, is baiting.

So stop excusing this kind of behaviour under the guise that it is
helpful. It isn't.

--
Antoon Pardon

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 26-10-13 23:22, Mark Lawrence schreef:

> On 26/10/2013 18:23, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 26-10-13 18:19, Mark Lawrence schreef:
>>> On 26/10/2013 17:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>>> I promise to stop baiting this complete and utter moron when I observe
>>> that nobody on this group says a single word to him as that's the only
>>> message that he'll understand. Any word to him from anybody and I
>>> reserve the right to join in.
>>
>> I fear this strategy is not stable. Just suppose most people follow this
>> strategy but someone reacts to Nikos anyhow. Now suddenly a lot of
>> people feel they have the right to join in. And of course these
>> reactions will feed this feeling.
>>
>> I understand you feel you don't have to keep silent if others aren't
>> but I wish your trigger would be less sensitive.
>>
>

> I wish I didn't have a combination of Asperger Syndrome, Chronic Fatigue
> Syndrome and Clinical Depression but sadly I'm stuck with the lot :(

I can't help you with your wish. You can help with mine. Do you think
I am unreasonable in what I wish for?

> Regardless of what others (rusi?) said earlier I'll keep my sense of
> humour going, it least that helps me to survive :)

Sure, the question is how you are going to use it. If we all follow
your strategy, sense of humour or not, the net result will be a lot
of people feeling righteous about their contributions to the list all
expecting the others to curb their behaviour first and resulting in
a big mess.

Sure you can say your piece when you notice there is still a substantial
respons to Nikos and that you don't feel the need to keep quiet as long
as that is going on. But if you think that a single word from anyone
to Nikos is enough to make you feel righteous about responding, then
your behaviour becomes part of the problem.

--
Antoon Pardon

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2013-10-27, Ben Finney <ben+p...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> I have no particular objection to you responding to those
> instances of bad behaviour that I've omitted.

So you omitted them, eh?

You just omitted the body of the letter, that's all! You've left
out the body of the letter, that's all. Yours is not to reason
why, Jamison. You've left out the body of the letter!

...

Fine. Send it that way, and tell them the body will follow.

--
Neil Cerutti

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear.

So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and
just encourage more posts from Nikos. I'm sure the _intent_ is
different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I guess you guys got
at BIG MUSCLES from doing too
gmail.com much STUDYING!

[Grant Edwards]

I think that's hit the nail on the head. Any reponse to Nikos
produces the _exact_ same result: Nikos's web site is still broken,
Nikos still has no clue what's going on or what to do, and we get more
posts from Nikos. None of the responses are helping Nikos, none of
them are solving problems. Some of them are more entertaining that
others, but that's highly subjective.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I'm not an Iranian!!
at I voted for Dianne
gmail.com Feinstein!!

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
>> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear.
>
> So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and
> just encourage more posts from Nikos. I'm sure the _intent_ is
> different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical.

I still maintain that I'm not *baiting* him, though. Maybe it would be
better overall if I never even try to help him, but sometimes I just
get all paladiny... it feels wrong to *not* answer. And yeah, I know
pallies are fairly often doing the wrong thing just to be Lawful Good.
The weird bit is, I generally consider myself to be Chaotic Good... or
Chaotic Neutral even. I'm not a paladin at all!

ChrisA

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 28-10-13 15:38, Chris Angelico schreef:

> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
>>> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear.
>>
>> So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and
>> just encourage more posts from Nikos. I'm sure the _intent_ is
>> different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical.
>

> I still maintain that I'm not *baiting* him, though.

I don't care. Maybe you can find some semantical rule, that will
give your behaviour an other etiket than "baiting", in the end
the effect on the list is the same, with Nikos feeling entitled
to insist to get an answer.

And if we want this to be a welcoming community, then we have to
care about the effects and not about the semantical category. So
should you want this to be a welcoming community, then you are
focussing on the wrong point.

> Maybe it would be
> better overall if I never even try to help him, but sometimes I just
> get all paladiny... it feels wrong to *not* answer.

What do you mean it feels wrong not to answer? Do you participate in
every subject? Do you engage at least everybody? Do you answer every
question that went unanswered? As far as I can see the answer is no
to each of these questions, so how come it feels wrong to not answer
Nikos?

--
Antoon Pardon

[rusi]

On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:14:50 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Here's an analogy:
>
> Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
> Person B: "No. Clean it yourself. Here's the vacuum cleaner."
> Person A: "CLEAN MY ROOM!!!"
> Person B: "No. You made the mess, you're old enough to clean it yourself."
>
>
> Person A: "Clean my room for me!"
> Person C: "You're stupid and ugly and I hope you die!"
>
>
> Do you see the difference yet?

Since we are exchanging analogies (analogy to exchanging anecdotes?) here's mine.

----------------
Mommy: Johnny your room needs to be cleaned up
Johnny: Yes Mom
(A few days later)
Mommy: Johnny your room's a real mess. Are you going to clean it?
Johnny: Yes Mom.
Mommy: When are you going to?
Johnny: Uh uh… Tomorrow
(Many tomorrow's more and Mommy-doing-basic-survival cleaning later…)
Mommy: Johny today's a Sunday. I expect your room thoroughly cleaned today!
Johnny: Uh uh…

(10 am as Johnny is going out with 'friends'…)

Mommy: I expect your room clean before you go out today!
Johnny: I'll be back in just 15 minutes. Only 15 minutes. Please Mom!
Mommy: Johnny if your room is not cleaned today, there will be no lunch
Johnny: Uh uh
Mommy: You heard me right? No lunch if your room is a mess.
Johnny: Ok

(15 minutes stretches to 4 hours)

Johnny: Mom! I am hungry!
Mommy: Remember? No food until your room is cleaned up.
Johnny: MOM! Im HUNGRY! I'll do it after lunch!
Mommy: There's no food -- neither for you nor me -- until your room's done.

Johnny: (begins to scream bawl throw an tantrum)
Mommy: (screams back)

Neighbours are disturbed (Its Sunday afternoon!) They force their way in.
Immediately Johnny's tune changes -- all weak and tearful.

Johnny: Ive had no food… for days…
Neighbours: Whoa?! Whats happening?
Johnny: Mommy's VERY angry with me. And I dont even know why (sob)!

(Too bewildered to protest or retort… Mom soon finds herself marched off to the police station for child-abuse)

[Ned Batchelder]

On 10/28/13 11:07 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:

Op 28-10-13 15:38, Chris Angelico schreef:

> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> On 2013-10-28, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>

>>> Chris is not baiting Nikos, he is giving him useful information that
>>> unfortunately Nikos doesn't want to hear.

>>
>> So he's replying to Nikos with responses that aren't helping Nikos and
>> just encourage more posts from Nikos.  I'm sure the _intent_ is
>> different than Mark's, but unfortunately, the result is identical.

> 

> I still maintain that I'm not *baiting* him, though.

I don't care. Maybe you can find some semantical rule, that will
give your behaviour an other etiket than "baiting", in the end
the effect on the list is the same, with Nikos feeling entitled
to insist to get an answer.

And if we want this to be a welcoming community, then we have to
care about the effects and not about the semantical category. So
should you want this to be a welcoming community, then you are
focussing on the wrong point.

I agree it is probably best to err on the side of ignoring Nikos.  But there is a distinction between (say) Chris' response and Mark's.  The effect on Nikos is the same, but the effect on other readers, especially readers new to the list, is very different.

We've already seen a few new people explicitly asking, "is this what usually happens on this list?" and they weren't referring to the Chris-style response, they were referring to the Mark-style response.

If we want this to be a welcoming community, we have to understand that there are many more readers than there are authors, and the impression we make on them matters too.  Responding negatively, no matter how humorously, is not going to improve the group.  It might amuse the regulars, but it is not building a strong and welcoming community.  I also happen to think that responding negatively won't even achieve its stated purpose of making the help-vampire go away.

--Ned.

[rusi]

On Monday, October 28, 2013 10:38:45 PM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
> We've already seen a few new people explicitly asking, "is this what
> usually happens on this list?" and they weren't referring to the
> Chris-style response, they were referring to the Mark-style
> response.

Here's the post of Vladimir Bugaj earlier in this same thread:

> I rarely ever post here.
>
> But I wanted to say that people responding to this Nikos troll makes reading
> this list a nuisance.

> You've never ever been successful in convincing him to behave, and it's been
> going on for quite a while now.

> I remain subscribed for occasional interesting new idioms and tips, but
> always have to sift through this nonsense.

> And all of you who take the bait are as much a part of the problem as the troll.

> Just ignore the guy.

---------
How do you read this that he minds the 'Mark-style' post more than the 'Chris-style' post?

[Ned Batchelder]

First, let's keep in mind that I am also in favor of completely ignoring help vampires, including Nikos.  I agree with Vladimir that we should just ignore him.

The posts I was thinking of started with Daniel Stojanov:

    "I just signed up the this mailing list. To the regulars, is this what normally happens on this list?"
    https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/656639.html

and the next day, Ravi Sahni said in response:

    "Lurker here: I too was wondering whether I have got into the wrong place"
    https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/656695.html

When people walk through the door, we should speak well to them.  If they are trouble, we should deal with them without it turning into a negative storm.  Remember that there are people looking in the windows trying to decide whether to come through the door.

--Ned.

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:22:09 -0400, Ned Batchelder wrote:

> When people walk through the door, we should speak well to them. If
> they are trouble, we should deal with them without it turning into a
> negative storm. Remember that there are people looking in the windows
> trying to decide whether to come through the door.

+1


--
Steven

[Steven D'Aprano]

Was that the letter made out to the solicitors Hummerdinger,
Hummerdinger, Hummerdinger, Hummerdinger, and McCormack? As I recall, not
only did the secretary leave out one of the Hummerdingers, but he left
out the most important one.



--
Steven

[Neil Cerutti]

Yep, from, "Animal Crackers." Although I believe it's,
"Hunger-Dunger." You were close though. You were close though,
and I bet you still are. ;)

--
Neil Cerutti