Guido at Google

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JB

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Dec 21, 2005, 6:18:04 AM12/21/05
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It seems that our master Guido van Rossum had an offer from google and
he accepted it!!

long life to Guido & Goole ! many things to come ;)

ju²

Fuzzyman

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Dec 21, 2005, 6:44:33 AM12/21/05
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That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
your paranoia levels).

You got any references on that ?

I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
course).

I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)

All the best,

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

Harald Armin Massa

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Dec 21, 2005, 9:06:43 AM12/21/05
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> It seems that our master Guido van Rossum had an offer from google and
> he accepted it!!

Isn't Guido-Sans official title BDFL? *wink*

whatever, if it's true, congratulations and best wishes. Now there is
one *bot and the BDFL at google, we have still 3 bots in the wild, do
we?

Suggesting to name a Rigobot ....


Harald

Alex Martelli

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Dec 21, 2005, 11:47:42 AM12/21/05
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Fuzzyman <fuzz...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> your paranoia levels).
>
> You got any references on that ?

I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
sits about 15 meters away from me;-).


> I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
> actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
> into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
> course).

The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't
me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open
source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering
manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can
read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from
us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure
that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of
the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-).


> I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)

We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see
that changing overnight. But, we'll see.


Alex

Fuzzyman

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Dec 21, 2005, 11:57:07 AM12/21/05
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Alex Martelli wrote:
> Fuzzyman <fuzz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> > your paranoia levels).
> >
> > You got any references on that ?
>
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
>

Cool - pass on my regards and thanks to him. ;-)

>
> > I was just thinking that the open source offerings from google are
> > actually pretty pitiful - considering the time investment they have put
> > into developing software systems. (Summer of Code not-withstanding of
> > course).
>
> The key technical person for opensource at Google isn't Guido and isn't
> me -- rather, I'd focus on Greg Stein (whose contributions to open
> source have been very wide-ranging, and who's been our engineering
> manager for opensource for quite a while now... not a secret, you can
> read about that on Greg's own blog). If you want more opensource from
> us, he's most probably the best person to bug about it!-). I'm sure
> that, being the chairman of the Apache Software Foundation (the VP of
> the ASF is also a Google employee), he can bend your ears about that;-).
>

Well, employing key open-source personnel and supporting them in their
work *probably* counts as helping the open-source world.

OTOH they (you...) must have worked on/with tremendous systems - like
load balancing software as one example off the top of my head. I guess
these are the competitive edge of google - and also there is a lot of
work turning in house systems into 'released' ones, even if the will is
there.

Even so - the code that has been directly released by google is
relatively slender.

>
> > I wonder if this heralds google finally upgrading from Python 2.2 ;-)
>
> We currently use multiple versions of Python, and I personally don't see
> that changing overnight. But, we'll see.
>

I've no axe to grind on that one.

All the best,

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

>

> Alex

Nicola Musatti

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Dec 21, 2005, 12:02:42 PM12/21/05
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Alex Martelli wrote:
> Fuzzyman <fuzz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's potentially very good news. (Or slightly sinister -depending on
> > your paranoia levels).
> >
> > You got any references on that ?
>
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).

Tsk, tsk, all that brainpower sitting so close together. That's not the
way to do risk management! I think you should suggest scattering
resources worldwide... now, it just so happens that there's an empty
five floor building a block and a half from my home...

By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern,
formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we
mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend
continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions
opening everywhere else :-)

Cheers,
Nicola Musatti

rbt

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Dec 21, 2005, 1:36:42 PM12/21/05
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Alex Martelli wrote:
> I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> sits about 15 meters away from me;-).

For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.

Martin P. Hellwig

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Dec 21, 2005, 1:42:56 PM12/21/05
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Well they could have used google for that ;-)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=15+meter+in+feet&btnG=Google+Search

--
mph

Kamilche

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Dec 21, 2005, 2:21:18 PM12/21/05
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Well, congrats to Google! I think they're the lucky ones, to get him,
and you, both. :-)

Jack Diederich

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Dec 21, 2005, 2:44:19 PM12/21/05
to pytho...@python.org

Right, so that is about three and a half stone?

Peter Hansen

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Dec 21, 2005, 4:43:52 PM12/21/05
to pytho...@python.org
Jack Diederich wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote:
>
> Right, so that is about three and a half stone?

You're probably** thinking of rods, as a stone is a measure of weight.

http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+rods

--

** More likely you're just pulling our legs. :-)

Peter Hansen

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Dec 21, 2005, 4:40:15 PM12/21/05
to pytho...@python.org

Google can do that too, of course. <wink>

http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet

(49.2125984 feet to be more precise)

-Peter

Rocco Moretti

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Dec 21, 2005, 5:14:16 PM12/21/05
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Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg)

15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...)
590 inches
49 feet
16 yards
0.0093 miles
0.008 nautical miles
3 rods
0.075 furlongs
1800 barleycorns
147.63 hands
66 spans
33 cubits
13 ells
8.2 fathoms
75 links
0.75 chains
0.0027 leauges
0.03 li
0.081 stadia
4.8e-16 parsecs
1e-10 astronomical units
5e-8 lightseconds
2.8e11 Bohr radiuses
9.2e35 Plank lenghts

and probably most appropriately (being dutch):

1.5 roede

In other words "a stone's throw away".

Gerard Flanagan

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Dec 21, 2005, 5:39:55 PM12/21/05
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Rocco Moretti wrote:

> Jack Diederich wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:36:42PM -0500, rbt wrote:
> >
> >>Alex Martelli wrote:
> >>
> >>>I don't think there was any official announcement, but it's true -- he
> >>>sits about 15 meters away from me;-).
> >>
> >>For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.
> >
> >
> > Right, so that is about three and a half stone?


> Stone is a measure of weight, not distance. (14 pounds, ~6.35 kg)

No, _meters_ are a measure of weight.

15 meters (150 decimeter, 1500 cm, etc ...)
590 inches
49 feet

147.63 hands
900.7 fingers
1150.64 toes
~3.5 stone

qed

geddit?

Dave Hansen

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Dec 21, 2005, 6:21:39 PM12/21/05
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:14:16 -0600 in comp.lang.python, Rocco Moretti
<roccom...@hotpop.com> wrote:

[...]

You forgot

8.81419673 smoots

Regards,

-=Dave

--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

Bengt Richter

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Dec 21, 2005, 8:01:08 PM12/21/05
to

Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation
of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion
is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason.
At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
Maybe things have changed since then ;-)

>>> 15e3/25.4/12
49.212598425196852

Appears to be the google number

But the official conversion

>>> 1000/39.37
25.400050800101603

is not _exactly_ 25.4 mm/inch
so the distance from Martellibot to BDFL should
more exactly be

>>> 15*39.37/12
49.212499999999999

Send bug report to google ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter

nnor...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 21, 2005, 8:07:39 PM12/21/05
to
Nicola Musatti wrote:
>
> By the way, I hear that you've become collegues also with Matt Austern,
> formerly of Apple, and Danny Thorpe, formerly of Borland. I guess we
> mere mortals don't stand a chance of being hired, but if the trend
> continues there are going to be a lot of very interesting positions
> opening everywhere else :-)

Ha! I'm still trying to figure out who let me in. Everyone has some
chance.
Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
about a one-way ticket to Mexico.

The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)

n

Greg Stein

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Dec 21, 2005, 8:30:46 PM12/21/05
to
Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our
software. While we've released some stuff
(code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to
do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult.
Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make
it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen)

But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd
like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community.
Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've
provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
organizations.

And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source
community. We're working on it!

Cheers,
-g

Jim Benson

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Dec 21, 2005, 8:30:03 PM12/21/05
to Bengt Richter, pytho...@python.org
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Bengt Richter wrote:

> >>
> >> For Americans: 15 meters is roughly 50 feet.
> >
> >Google can do that too, of course. <wink>
> >
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+15+meters+to+feet
> >
> >(49.2125984 feet to be more precise)
> >
> Actually that looks like it's based on the approximation
> of 25.4 mm/inch, whereas I believe the legally defined US conversion
> is 39.3700 inches/meter. They're close. British is 39.3701 for some reason.
> At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
> Maybe things have changed since then ;-)
>

Actually they did change...My 54th edition lists the change that
as of July 1 1959, by definition, 1 inch is exactly 25.4 mm.

Jim


Peter Hansen

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Dec 21, 2005, 9:47:29 PM12/21/05
to pytho...@python.org
Bengt Richter wrote:
[roughly "an inch is not exactly 25.4mm"]

> At least according to my dusty 37th Edition Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (c) 1955.
> Maybe things have changed since then ;-)

Wikipedia concurs with Jim, though it says the official change dates
from 1958.

Better throw that old book out, as it's also likely to be missing any
reference to useful elements such as Lawrencium (1961), and Hassium
(1984), not to mention Ununnilium, Ununumium and Ununbium (94, 94, 96
respectively) or the most recently discovered element, which the PSU
tried to supp

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Anand

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Dec 22, 2005, 1:26:35 AM12/22/05
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This is very good news. I wish Guido all the best!

I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing
IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon.
Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to
counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-)

-Anand

Ilias Lazaridis

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Dec 22, 2005, 1:47:09 AM12/22/05
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Greg Stein wrote:
> Yeah... we recognize that we could certainly open-source more of our
> software. While we've released some stuff
> (code.google.com/projects.html), there is a LOT more that we want to

http://code.google.com/projects.html

> do. Getting engineers' 20% time to do that has been difficult.
> Thankfully, we know how to fix that and got the okay/headcount to make
> it happen. (IOW, it isn't a lack of desire, but making it happen)

When a company like Google open's sources, this means simply nothing
more than:

- the software is not critical to their business (e.g. core-software)
- the internal resources cannot ensure further development

See IBM, SUN and others, which have done the same thing.

> But even if we haven't been able to open-source as much code as we'd
> like, we *have* been trying to be very supportive of the community.
> Between the Summer of Code and direct cash contributions, we've
> provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
> organizations.

I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects.

Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process) and
documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like "class")

e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model?

Even Ruby has one:

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png

-

> And we have a couple other ideas on how to help the open source
> community. We're working on it!

The open-source-community can help Google, too!

E.g.: Google needs an public Issue-Tracking-System.

I needed around 30 emails and 2 months until google-groups-support
removed a bug which broke(!) existent links to google archives. (cannot
find the topic. Simply search your support-archives to see the desaster).

With publicity, the team would have removed the bug within one week.

> Cheers,
> -g

And finally:

If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr. van
Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of Python
will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by Google -
van Rossum will follow, so simple).

I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully
Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model?

Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it does
not pass in its current implementation):

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html

-

I have around one year to await.

Will see.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

bon...@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2005, 2:02:04 AM12/22/05
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I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty
of either organisations of such size ?

Alex Martelli

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:03:10 AM12/22/05
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<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge,
that Java, for example, is pretty high "in the priority of an
organization" (guess which one?) whose size (number of employees) is, I
believe, quite a bit larger than Google's. Microsoft used to have a
"particular programming language" (Visual Basic) in quite a strategic
role in their array of products, and although you'd now have to consider
a small set instead (including C#) it seems to me they still do. As for
Google, well, I believe there is exactly one (1) person you'll find
identified on the web as both a "Google Fellow" AND a Google
vice-president, and his page from when he was a professor at UCSB
(before he joined Google) is still on the web, too: guess what field his
research was in...? But I guess this is about programming languages in
general, rather than "a particular one" (and indeed, neither MS, nor
Google, nor the other organization above mentioned, have ever been
"single-programming-language" cultures [net of the very early times when
Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...).


Alex

bon...@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:14:02 AM12/22/05
to
The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed
to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or
not intended), there isn't much I can do.

Gary Herron

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Dec 22, 2005, 2:48:55 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.

Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
it a better language in *our* eyes.

So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
should we listen?

Gary Herron

bon...@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:25:00 AM12/22/05
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Gary Herron wrote:
> You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.
>
> Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
> It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
> our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
> If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
> join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
> it a better language in *our* eyes.
>
> So how about it... What's your complaint, what's your solution, and why
> should we listen?
>
Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if
that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
language in general. Can it still be called python ?

I am not saying that it is a better way(my guess is not) but just that
the first sentence seems to be overly generalized.

Alex Martelli

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:28:37 AM12/22/05
to
<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> > > > I wonder if this has got to do something with Microsoft developing
> > > > IronPython. Incidentellay it is reaching a 1.0 release pretty soon.
> > > > Perhaps Google has some cards up their sleeve. What other best way to
> > > > counter this than to hire the big fish himself ? :-)
...

> > > I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty
> > > of either organisations of such size ?
...

> > Interesting question. I would expect, without any inside knowledge,
...

> > "single-programming-language" cultures [net of the very early times when
> > Basic was MS's only product, of course;-)]...).
> >
> The question was specifically to the previous question it is responsed
> to and if its context or meaning have been read otherwise(intended or
> not intended), there isn't much I can do.

The funny idea that Google would hire Guido to "counter" Microsoft's
hiring of Jim Hugunin 1+ year ago didn't particularly need debunking,
but you chose to comment on it with a "question" which I thought was
worth answering, since you chose to phrase it so very generally, and
since it appeared to be intended as a "rhetorical question" hinting at
what I consider a wrong idea in the general case. Far from "there not
being much you can do", if you're interested in avoiding possible
misunderstandings you can easily choose to express yourself more
precisely and specifically, rather than vaguely and generically...


Alex

Bengt Richter

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:38:42 AM12/22/05
to

I had been using 25.4mm/inch myself, but decided to look it up, and
found that I had been using the "wrong" value -- now actually proving
to be right after all, after the definition change of 1958(1959?).

Google found an NIST page:

http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/appenB.html

Where it says:
"""
B.6 U.S. survey foot and mile

The U. S. Metric Law of 1866 gave the relationship 1 m = 39.37 in (in is
the unit symbol for the inch). From 1893 until 1959, the yard was defined
as being exactly equal to (3600/3937) m, and thus the foot was defined as
being exactly equal to (1200/3937) m.

In 1959 the definition of the yard was changed to bring the U.S. yard and
the yard used in other countries into agreement. Since then the yard has
been defined as exactly equal to 0.9144 m, and thus the foot has been
defined as exactly equal to 0.3048 m. At the same time it was decided that
any data expressed in feet derived from geodetic surveys within the United
States would continue to bear the relationship as defined in 1893, namely,
1 ft = (1200/ 3937) m (ft is the unit symbol for the foot). The name of
this foot is "U.S. survey foot," while the name of the new foot defined in
1959 is "international foot." The two are related to each other through
the expression 1 international foot = 0.999 998 U.S. survey foot exactly.

In Sec. B.8 and Sec. B.9, the factors given are based on the international
foot unless otherwise indicated. Users of this /Guide/ may also find
the following summary of exact relationships helpful, where for
convenience the symbols /ft/ and /mi,/ that is, ft and mi in
italic type, indicate that it is the /U.S. survey foot/ or /U.S.
survey mile/ that is meant rather than the international foot (ft) or
international mile (mi), and where rd is the unit symbol for the rod and
fur is the unit symbol for the furlong.

1 /ft/ = (1200/3937) m
1 ft = 0.3048 m
1 ft = 0.999 998 /ft/
1 rd, pole, or perch = 16 1/2 /ft/

40 rd = 1 fur = 660 /ft/
8 fur = 1 U.S. survey mile (also called "statute mile") = 1 /mi/ = 5280 /ft/
1 fathom = 6 /ft/
1 international mile = 1 mi = 5280 ft
272 1/4 /ft/**2 = 1 rd**2

160 rd**2 = 1 acre = 43 560ft**2
640 acre = 1 /mi/**2
"""
(I changed italics to be indicated by /italic/ slashes, and superscript by **,
as well as changing special characters for a quarter and half to 1/4 and 1/2.
Hope I didn't typo ;-)

Anyway, 25.4 mm/inch it is. Nice to revert to that, after an unsettling diversion ;-)
NIST ought to have it right, right? Or is there an intelligent design version now? ;-/

Regards,
Bengt Richter

bon...@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2005, 3:40:16 AM12/22/05
to
As I said, I cannot do anything in how you want to intepret that and
how you can read it as "rhetorical question"(could be just that it is
from me), there really is nothing I can do other changing the mail name
which I am intended to.

What is your meaning of "wrong idea in the general case" ?

Alex Martelli

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Dec 22, 2005, 4:08:09 AM12/22/05
to
<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> > > > > I wonder how high a particular programming language is in the prioirty
> > > > > of either organisations of such size ?
...
> from me), there really is nothing I can do other changing the mail name
> which I am intended to.

Sorry, can't parse this (I doubt it's English).

> What is your meaning of "wrong idea in the general case" ?

In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of
your "question" above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and
grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as
rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular
programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size
similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I
tried showing with several examples displaying "particular programming
languages" having high strategical priorities for organizations with
many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger
size] than Google's).

An example of rhetorical question:
"Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
*extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
employees?"

In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an
opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that
(and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical
questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.


Alex

Steve Holden

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Dec 22, 2005, 4:11:42 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU

Bengt Richter

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Dec 22, 2005, 4:24:51 AM12/22/05
to

So I found, which makes me happy, because I had been assuming 25.4
for a long time. (I'm not happy about saying "I believe the legally
defined conversion..." since I had only just tried to verify 25.4
and found that I was "wrong." I guess something told me to hedge with that "maybe" ;-)

FWIW, my first reference was my trusty old Random House American College Dictionary
(that I used in high school) dictionary, which also says 39.37 in/meter.
But it's copyrighted 1949. They used to make real reference books with good paper ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter

EP

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Dec 22, 2005, 4:40:20 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
bon...@gmail.com wrote:

I do not know how badly Google needs a particular programming language
Python, but in that I believe the IT world at large could really use
Python, more Python, both as it exists and as it might evolve to be, I
would like to mention that Python, the language, could really use a high
profile industry champion.

Java => Sun
.Net => Microsoft
C# => Microsoft
Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
Python => ________ ?


These kind of alliances may not improve the bytecode, but they sure
influence what programmers get to use day in and day out.

Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright.


EP

bon...@gmail.com

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Dec 22, 2005, 4:48:25 AM12/22/05
to

Alex Martelli wrote:
> In the general case, it's pretty general;-). In the specific case of
> your "question" above quoted (interpreting the mis-spelled words and
> grammatical errors to the best of my modest ability), reading it as
> rhetorical means it's in fact intended as a statement (that a particular
> programming language cannot have high priority for organizations of size
> similar to MS's and Google's), and such a statement is incorrect (as I
> tried showing with several examples displaying "particular programming
> languages" having high strategical priorities for organizations with
> many thousands of employees, including one with more personnel [larger
> size] than Google's).
So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like
a press release mentioning Guido has been hired.

>
> An example of rhetorical question:
> "Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
> one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
> *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
> employees?"
>
> In this example, the question is phrased to hint at how silly such an
> opinion would be, and therefore imply that you can't really think that
> (and must have ulterior motives for so suggesting, etc etc). Rhetorical
> questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
> all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
> less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.

Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is
quite netural to me as a "I don't agree with you" without indication of
silliness, just a style of writing.

Ray

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 4:49:32 AM12/22/05
to
EP wrote:
> Congrats, Guido. Thanks for Python and may your future at Google be bright.

Congrats to BDFL too--may the future of his and his creation be bright
indeed!

Ray

>
>
> EP

Fuzzyman

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 6:57:12 AM12/22/05
to

I salute your contribution to the world of open source in general.

I'm hopeful that the employing Guido will lead to a more tangible bias
in favour of Python ;-)

All the best,

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

> Cheers,
> -g

Peter Hansen

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 7:01:02 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
bon...@gmail.com wrote:
> So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> impact to Google ?

Since when is Python in a standstill?

By all accounts I've seen, and personal observation over the last five
years, it's use is growing rapidly, and the language itself (including
in that word the libraries, tools, etc.) is continuing to evolve and
improve.

-Peter

Cameron Laird

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 8:08:02 AM12/22/05
to
In article <1135239900.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
.
.
.

>Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if
>that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
>group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
>know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
>language in general. Can it still be called python ?
.
.
.
While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.

bon...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 8:18:45 AM12/22/05
to
The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name,
as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ?
Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from
Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only
way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very
similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not
using this model.

Luis M. González

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 8:38:29 AM12/22/05
to
> Java => Sun
> .Net => Microsoft
> C# => Microsoft
> Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
> Python => ________ ?

I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical
- Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing
applications in Python.
His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.

Carsten Haese

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:10:34 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 07:01, Peter Hansen wrote:

> bon...@gmail.com wrote:
> > So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> > words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> > impact to Google ?
>
> Since when is Python in a standstill?

I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of "If
Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact
to Google?" but didn't know how to ask it correctly.

-Carsten


Renato

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:11:28 AM12/22/05
to
For what is worth,
all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
installer) are written in Python, too.

So RedHat, too, has a big interest in Python :-)

--
Renato Ramonda

Graham Fawcett

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:12:56 AM12/22/05
to
Cameron Laird wrote:
> In article <1135239900.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> <bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> .
> >Well, this may be the CPython way of open source but I don't know if
> >that is "Open source" in general. Another way is that if someone(or
> >group) don't like the current state of a project, they fork. I don't
> >know if that is possible in the context of python, and programming
> >language in general. Can it still be called python ?
> .
> While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
> observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
> unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
> mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.

...though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the
early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas.

Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an "open" HLL with a vast number of
implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a
spec and there's no canonical implementation.

This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of
yore:

<Thaddeus Olczyk> So python will fork if ActiveState starts
polluting it?

<Brian Quinlan> I find it more relevant to speculate on whether
Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities
riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1]

Merry _('Christmas') to all,
Graham

----
[1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-April/037142.html

Graham Fawcett

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:18:52 AM12/22/05
to
Steve Holden wrote:

> > Nicola Musatti wrote:
> > Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
> > about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
> >
> I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
[suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!

Graham

Steve Holden

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:19:11 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
Well the name "Python" is a trade mark of the Python Software
Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
"Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
cease-and-desist letter.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/

bon...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:29:01 AM12/22/05
to

Steve Holden wrote:
> Well the name "Python" is a trade mark of the Python Software
> Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
> "Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
> cease-and-desist letter.
>
That is what I expect but don't know to what extend. Can it be called
PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc
?

What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
and make modifications then call it Sneak ?

Carsten Haese

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:34:52 AM12/22/05
to bon...@gmail.com, pytho...@python.org

Most of your question can be answered by reading the license. Section 3
of version 2 of the PSF license states:
"""
3. In the event Licensee prepares a derivative work that is based on
or incorporates Python or any part thereof, and wants to make
the derivative work available to others as provided herein, then
Licensee hereby agrees to include in any such work a brief summary of
the changes made to Python.
"""

In other words, you can change Python to your liking and distribute the
changed version, as long as you tell people how it differs from Python.
Since the changed version is different from Python, calling it Python
would be a) boneheaded and b) as Steve Holden points out, a trademark
violation. Note that section 7 states that "This License Agreement does
not grant permission to use PSF trademarks or trade name in a trademark
sense to endorse or promote products or services of Licensee, or any
third party" and the Python name is a trademark of the PSF.

So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
choices:
1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
accepted into the "official" Python version, or
2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.

Hope this clears things up,

Carsten.


bon...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:43:35 AM12/22/05
to

Carsten Haese wrote:
> So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
> choices:
> 1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
> accepted into the "official" Python version, or
> 2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
> different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
> permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
> the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.
>
> Hope this clears things up,
>
Thanks, though I don't have urgent need(if at all) to see changes in it.

Steve Holden

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 9:43:39 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
Far answers to this and all other (as far as I can determine)
hypothetical questions please refer to the license.

Thomas Wouters

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 10:18:34 AM12/22/05
to
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:18:52 -0800, Graham Fawcett wrote:

> Steve Holden wrote:
>> I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
> [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]
>
> Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
> you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
> cabal!

No, you don't understand. There is no PSU, and Steven doesn't know about
them (since it doesn't exist), and he nor I were held captive by the PSU,
since it doesn't exist. Nor is there, in fact, a PSU. Please stop
spreading rumours about the PSU. Not that you would be hunted down and
silenced forcefully by the PSU, which doesn't exist, if you continued to
spread such malignant lies about the existance of the non-existant PSU,
which doesn't exist, of course. Because it doesn't exist. So it wouldn't
be able to do that. Trust me.

Not-brainwashed-after-a-long-but-utterly-unsuspicious-and-PSU-unrelated-absense'ly
y'rs,
--
Thomas Wouters <tho...@xs4all.net>

Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread!

Peter Hansen

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 10:21:22 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org

At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
haven't seen him since.

While I'm worried for him personally, all I can say is that I think it's
a darn good thing for the community...

...I mean, that he's not the PyCon conference chair this year!

-Peter

Tim Peters

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 10:49:15 AM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
[bon...@gmail.com]
> ...

> What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
> and make modifications then call it Sneak ?

Of course they _could_ do that, and even without making modifications
beyond the name change. If you want to know whether it's legal,
that's a different question. Take a copy of the Python license to
your lawyer and buy an opinion worth hearing ;-)

rbt

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 11:47:36 AM12/22/05
to
Alex Martelli wrote:

> Rhetorical
> questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
> all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
> less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.

Also, email doesn't convey rhetorical questions that well. Facial
expressions and body movement aid the audience in picking up on things
such as this... maybe Google can fix that too ;)

rbt

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 11:55:19 AM12/22/05
to

Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans?

Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be
applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having
James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;)

Alex Martelli

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:03:49 PM12/22/05
to
<bon...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
> words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
> impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like

And so can I, as an insider, when I communicate with people who are not
employed by Google nor have signed non-disclosure agreements.

> a press release mentioning Guido has been hired.

If only press releases count, then I believe Google has made few hires
in 2005 -- Elliot Schrage, Johnny Chou, and Vint Cerf, would be about
it, I believe (e.g., I can't even see any press release specifically
about our hiring Kai Fu Lee at http://googlepress.blogspot.com, though
he's mentioned in the press release about Chou).


> > An example of rhetorical question:
> > "Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
> > one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
> > *extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
> > employees?"

...


> Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is

Then you don't know what "rhetorical question" means; you'll find many
explanations on the web, but one of my favorite is "a question that
conveys a point rather than expects an answer", which is exactly what
this example IS. ((I don't personally find it all that surprising that
you don't know what a given English expression means)).

> quite netural to me as a "I don't agree with you" without indication of
> silliness, just a style of writing.

As I said, and I quote:

> > Rhetorical questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing

although they can be overused, or weakened if they're fuzzy or badly
expressed. More specifically, a rhetorical question may often be used
"for effect" and emphasis, as several of the definitions you'll find on
the web mention.


Alex

Alex Martelli

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:03:49 PM12/22/05
to
Carsten Haese <car...@uniqsys.com> wrote:

Answering generically rather than on the basis of any inside
information, like for any other technology, a lot would depend on how
other technologies "competing" for similar uses are faring.

If _every_ programming language were suddenly to undergo the same
"standing still", then the technological stasis would affect every
company using programming languages, regardless of their specific
technology choices: productivity growth would slow across the board (not
stop, of course -- cfr. e.g. Tenner's "Our Own Devices" for very
readable analysis of the effects of the developments of technology
versus technique) but the competitive situation would be unaffected.

If, on the other hand, technology X was to suddently stand still while
competing technology Y keeps showing real improvements, this would
progressively tilt the competitive playing field against companies
heavily invested in X and not in Y; eventually such companies would have
to pay the costs of switching to Y, or suffer a deterioration in their
competitive position.

That Google's heavily invested in Python is hardly inside information (I
believe we have a quote to that effect by Peter Norvig on python.org).

Of course, this pretty obvious analysis treats "Python" as a whole
technology -- it doesn't particularly care whether "improvements" come
to the language per se, to the libraries, to the implementation, etc, it
just takes as "improvement" any change that does enhance existing users'
productivity (indeed, changes that do so without requiring any training
or much work, such as compiling an unchanged language to faster code,
might have more immediate impact than new language features, which would
only enter into use slowly and gradually).


Alex

Alex Martelli

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:07:26 PM12/22/05
to
Renato <renato....@gmail.com> wrote:

> all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
> Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
> redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
> software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
> installer) are written in Python, too.

BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those
developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-).


Alex

Graham Fawcett

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:07:21 PM12/22/05
to
Peter Hansen wrote:
> Graham Fawcett wrote:
> > Steve Holden wrote:
> >>>Nicola Musatti wrote:
> >>>Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
> >>>about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
> >>I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
> >
> > [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]
> >
> > Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
> > you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
> > cabal!
>
> At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
> trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
> haven't seen him since.

There is no Steve Holden, and he has never been at war with Eurasia.
Remove the P, S and U keys from your keyboard immediately.

double-plus-good'ly yours, ...umm... doble-l-good'ly yor,

Graham

Kent Johnson

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:08:54 PM12/22/05
to
Cameron Laird wrote:
> While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
> observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
> unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
> mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.

If you are maintaining that page - JPython is now called Jython and has a web site at
http://www.jython.org.

Kent

Brian van den Broek

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:29:04 PM12/22/05
to pytho...@python.org
Graham Fawcett said unto the world upon 2005-12-22 08:18:

> Steve Holden wrote:
>
>>>Nicola Musatti wrote:
>>>Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
>>>about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :-)
>>>
>>
>>I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
>
> [suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

There one weapon is surp

Ilias Lazaridis

unread,
Dec 22, 2005, 12:38:12 PM12/22/05
to
Gary Herron wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>> Greg Stein wrote:
[...]

>>> provided a LOT of support to a large number of open source
>>> organizations.
>>
>> I hope that you invest some time to _organize_ the Open Source Projects.
>>
>> Starting with Python and it's project-structure (e.g. build-process)
>> and documentation (e.g. ensuring standard-terminology is kept, like
>> "class")
>>
>> e.g.: where can I find an UML diagramm of the Python Object Model?
>>
>> Even Ruby has one:
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png
[...]

>> And finally:
>>
>> If Mr. van Rossum is now at Google, and Python is essentially a Mr.
>> van Rossum based product, then most possibly the evolution-speed of
>> Python will decrease even more (Google will implement things needed by
>> Google - van Rossum will follow, so simple).
>>
>> I mean, when will this language finally become a _really_ fully
>> Object-Oriented one, with a clean reflective Meta-Model?
>>
>> Thus I can see Python pass this this _simple_ evaluation (which it
>> does not pass in its current implementation):
>>
>> http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html
>>
>> -
>>
>> I have around one year to await.
>
> You don't appear to understand Open Source very well.

I understand some of the several (partly contrary) meanings of "Open
Source".

> Python is the way it is because we, the community, *like* it that way.
> It evolves in directions that we (all) decide it is to evolve. Guido is
> our leader in this because we trust him and *choose* to follow his lead.
> If you want something changed you don't wait and you don't whine, you
> join the community with a reasoned argument for why your idea would make
> it a better language in *our* eyes.
>
> So how about it... What's your complaint,

As expressed above, I am afraid about pythons evolution-speed and futher
evolution in general.

a) Missing clear and concise documentation, e.g. of Python Object Model,
like UML diagramm:

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby/TheRubyObjectModel.png

b) Leadership (Board/Leader) should engourage change suggestions and
analytical feedback, whilst accepting "analyst-role" in addition to
"implementors-roles" (_both_ are contributions! This should be
communicated by the Board/Leader to the Communicty):

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/f5cd74aa26617f17

c) I mean, when will python become _really_ fully Object-Oriented, with
a clean reflective Meta-Model? Thus it will pass this simple evaluation:

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html

> what's your solution,

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/textual.html
http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html

[alpha status, comments via email or contact-form are welcome]

> and why should we listen?

Cause this would increase the evolution-speed of python.

This would contribute to its success.

> Gary Herron

.

--
http://lazaridis.com