Python Enterprise Objects

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Wenshan Du

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May 8, 2002, 9:47:31 PM5/8/02
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hi,all
I like python very much, but I find that python is not very suitable
for enterprise application for now. So, I make a project named Python
Enterprise Objects for enterprise application at sourceforge.net. I
want it to be a replacement of J2EE, or Mirosoft .Net framework. Some
API will added. I need some advice about how to make this dream to
fact.
You can see my project at:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/peo
Thanks a lot.

Ian Bicking

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May 8, 2002, 10:27:52 PM5/8/02
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On Wed, 2002-05-08 at 20:47, Wenshan Du wrote:
> hi,all
> I like python very much, but I find that python is not very suitable
> for enterprise application for now. So, I make a project named Python
> Enterprise Objects for enterprise application at sourceforge.net. I
> want it to be a replacement of J2EE, or Mirosoft .Net framework. Some
> API will added. I need some advice about how to make this dream to
> fact.

Maybe a good place to start would be by writing a document to explain
why enterprise objects are necessary, and how they differ from present
Python facilities. I haven't used Java myself, but I've tried more than
once to figure out what J2EE was about. Mostly I've just found endless
buzzwords, but when people have tried to explain it without those it
seems to come down to being a mechanism for distributing code.

Anyway, Java makes a lot of fuss about a lot of things that Python just
does, without any fuss. So maybe you can explain what enterprise
objects are, and why they are needed, and why you can't accomplish the
same things with existing Python facilities.

Ian


Christopher Browne

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May 9, 2002, 1:34:21 AM5/9/02
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In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, Ian Bicking <ia...@colorstudy.com> transmitted:

J2EE seems mostly a way of letting Sun charge lots more in licensing
fees :-(.

More seriously, it tends to involve tighter integration between the
language environment and "database stuff" so that when you invoke
methods, they are rather more likely to be tied to objects that are
persistent even against fairly severe failure.

You start up the server again, and a lot of the objects will be able
to recover themselves.

The context for this sort of thing (frankly, _anything_ beyond "plain
old Java") needs to involve pointing a finger at what it is to be
applied to.

It would be worth "pointing fingers" and saying that an "Enterprise
Python" would involve things such as:
-> Safe support for multithreading;
-> Good support of transactional data stores (whether of SQL or
Berkeley DB style).

Ensuring those sorts of things is quite different from "Robustifying
Java" projects...
--
(concatenate 'string "aa454" "@freenet.carleton.ca")
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/java.html
"CANADA: 132 years in the same location! Open to serve you 24 hours
per day, 7 days per week. Now with 3 Territories!"

Ian Bicking

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May 9, 2002, 2:13:16 AM5/9/02
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On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 00:34, Christopher Browne wrote:
> More seriously, it tends to involve tighter integration between the
> language environment and "database stuff" so that when you invoke
> methods, they are rather more likely to be tied to objects that are
> persistent even against fairly severe failure.

So, J2EE is sort of an object-relational mapper? Or a framework for
creating such a mapper? I.e., a middleware-creation-toolkit?

Ian


Irmen de Jong

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May 9, 2002, 3:54:36 AM5/9/02
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"Wenshan Du" <pyt...@dohao.org> wrote in message
news:e786d63d.0205...@posting.google.com...

> hi,all
> I like python very much, but I find that python is not very suitable
> for enterprise application for now. So, I make a project named Python
> Enterprise Objects for enterprise application at sourceforge.net. I
> want it to be a replacement of J2EE, or Mirosoft .Net framework. Some
> API will added. I need some advice about how to make this dream to
> fact.


Have you taken a look at ZOPE at all? (http://www.zope.org/Documentation).
This may already be wat you want.


F. GEIGER

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May 9, 2002, 4:43:28 AM5/9/02
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> Have you taken a look at ZOPE at all?
(http://www.zope.org/Documentation).
> This may already be wat you want.

...or Webware, especially with its MiddleKit? Have a look at
webware.sourceforge.net!

Cheers
Franz

"Irmen de Jong" <ir...@NOSPAMREMOVETHISxs4all.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:abd9vt$jnm$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...

Paul Boddie

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May 9, 2002, 11:51:26 AM5/9/02
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Ian Bicking <ia...@colorstudy.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1020924858...@python.org>...

J2EE is so many things, but I'll try and summarise them instead of
pointing you back to the Sun J2EE site, which is almost as
badly-designed as Sun's other sites.

In many respects, J2EE attempts to address the same kinds of areas
that various Python Web frameworks (blatant promotion of Web page -
see below) cover:

Servlets - server-side programs which respond to requests, typically
over HTTP, although other protocols aren't exactly ruled out.

JSP (JavaServer Pages) - a presentation technology which is much like
ASP and countless "Python Server Pages" technologies.

EJB (Enterprise JavaBeans) - unlike the much-hyped, but easy-to-grasp
JavaBeans concept, components written to the EJB specifications
specifically attempt to cover the area of "business logic", and
provide support for things like transactions involving many different
objects and databases.

Object-relational support is only really addressed in "container
managed entity beans" which form a small part of the whole EJB thing.
Prior to version 2.0 of the EJB specification, the "container managed"
part - meaning that the mapping to relational database tables was done
on your behalf - was more or less a toy, in my opinion, because there
apparently wasn't a standard way of describing relations between
objects.

Really, the benefit of J2EE is the standardisation of the way people
write their server-side applications; that's something which we
haven't yet seen in the Python community, but then there's still a lot
of diversity on top of J2EE in terms of frameworks which actually
provide application-specific solutions to real-world problems.

Blatant Web site promotion:

http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html

At some point, I'll work on and upload the Python vs. J2EE comparison
document I was writing.

Paul

Cameron Laird

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May 9, 2002, 12:23:41 PM5/9/02
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In article <23891c90.02050...@posting.google.com>,
Paul Boddie <pa...@boddie.net> wrote:
.
.
.

>J2EE is so many things, but I'll try and summarise them instead of
>pointing you back to the Sun J2EE site, which is almost as
>badly-designed as Sun's other sites.
.
[more description, all
of it excellent]
.

.
>Blatant Web site promotion:
>
> http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html
>
>At some point, I'll work on and upload the Python vs. J2EE comparison
>document I was writing.
>
>Paul

Listen to Paul. He's right on target.

There is an addendum I think imperative: J2EE's market
is IT managers, not developers like us. 'Least, that's
the impression almost all of J2EE gives me, and a far
more parsimonious explanation of the facts than any
alternative. So, as even Zope has only a primitive
marketing plan, in comparison, there's no real Python
equivalent to J2EE.

J2EE does have some neat technology inside. It can be
quite hard getting to it, though.
--

Cameron Laird <Cam...@Lairds.com>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
Personal: http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html

bru...@tbye.com

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May 9, 2002, 1:39:04 PM5/9/02
to
On 9 May 2002, Paul Boddie wrote:

> J2EE is so many things, but I'll try and summarise them instead of
> pointing you back to the Sun J2EE site, which is almost as
> badly-designed as Sun's other sites.

[snip J2EE summary]

Bless you! Finally, a non-hype answer that we can get our minds around.

> At some point, I'll work on and upload the Python vs. J2EE comparison
> document I was writing.

Please do!

-Dave

Bill Tate

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May 10, 2002, 9:32:33 AM5/10/02
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pyt...@dohao.org (Wenshan Du) wrote in message news:<e786d63d.0205...@posting.google.com>...

While I applaud your intent (re: "replacement of J2EE or.. .NET") - I
would kindly suggest you bear in mind what your up against. All hype
aside, Java is and/or will offer solutions from the embedded and
mobile device levels all the way up to corporate IT systems.

At the embedded device level, concerns about Java's
"non-deterministic" nature are being addressed by the new Real Time
Java spec. I think you can pretty much take it for granted that Java
will eventually have a very good footing both in the embedded and
mobile device markets. Check out the #1 RTOS vendor VxWorks and see
what they're saying about java. If I'm not mistaken, you have most,
if not all, the major telecom vendors (Nokia, et.al.) shipping
products with java as well. Recently, there has been a fair amount of
material published about "Java on Silicon" which suggests that we will
continue to see the speed issue addressed.

I'll ignore the desktop applications because, quite frankly, you need
only look at where most of the major corporate application tools are
going to imagine that java's virtual non-existence on the desktop is
not going to be a real limiting factor. If your servers and small
devices are running java, and you also have strong support for
xml/soap/web services, the story is a fairly compelling one.

I don't wish to dissuade you, but I would caution you to carefully
consider what pieces are "missing" from the python "enterprise" puzzle
before you go tilting at windmills :>) Good luck.

Ian Bicking

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May 10, 2002, 4:08:38 PM5/10/02
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On Fri, 2002-05-10 at 08:32, Bill Tate wrote:
> While I applaud your intent (re: "replacement of J2EE or.. .NET") - I
> would kindly suggest you bear in mind what your up against. All hype
> aside, Java is and/or will offer solutions from the embedded and
> mobile device levels all the way up to corporate IT systems.

All of this is incidental. The premise of posting to this list, and of
creating the project, is that there's something worth doing here, and
worth doing in Python. What position Java is in doesn't really matter.
Negativity be gone!

Of course, the very use of the word "enterprise" implies that our
insular joy may mean little that cold, barren land. That's why I try
not to touch that stuff -- life is more fun elsewhere.

Ian


Dave Kuhlman

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May 10, 2002, 5:28:46 PM5/10/02
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Ian Bicking wrote:
[snip]

> Of course, the very use of the word "enterprise" implies that our
> insular joy may mean little that cold, barren land. That's why I
> try not to touch that stuff -- life is more fun elsewhere.
>
> Ian

"Enterprise" means different things to different people. Focus on
the "S" in SME (small to medium enterprise) and I can imagine the
need for a reasonably light-weight toolkit for implementing Web
services that can be customized easily. Small businesses such as
dentist offices, boutique (and non-franchise) stores, etc might
provide a target for Python and an easy to adapt toolkit whereas
hiring a crew of Java programmers and purchasing a large platform
(e.g. Websphere or WebMethods) might be less than attractive.

Python already has many of the pieces of this toolkit (XML tools,
app servers such as Webware and Twisted and SkunkWeb, etc). It
will be gaining more of the needed infrastructure over the next
year or so.

- Dave

--
Dave Kuhlman
dkuh...@rexx.com
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman

Paul Boddie

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May 13, 2002, 1:34:40 PM5/13/02
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bru...@tbye.com wrote in message news:<mailman.1020963076...@python.org>...

Alright, here it is:

http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_modules_enterprise.html

It's obviously incomplete, and the information is rather similar to
what I presented earlier in this thread, but it's a start. Feedback is
welcome to the usual address. ;-)

Paul

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