Automation

[Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira]

I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

[bob gailer]

You could start by explaining what those terms mean. They have no direct
relationship to Python.

Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum theory? Telephony?

P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?

Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.

--
Bob Gailer
919-636-4239
Chapel Hill NC

[renato.barbos...@gmail.com]

http://pastebin.com/N9dgaHTx

With this program I can read a csv file with 3 columns, in one of these columns I need to read the value more high and multiply by 0.632 and with result, search in the same column by a value that aproximate with this result, and then return the vector position.

[Mark Lawrence]

According to http://www.acronymfinder.com there are only 85 meanings for
PV, 75 for MV and a mere 290 for SP so simply take your pick :)

--
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

[Johannes Findeisen]

On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 14:19:48 -0200

Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:

> I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate
> Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion

> about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

Did you looked at http://www.python-excel.org/ ?

May this can help you solving your problem. Since you are not
explaining what you want to do I can really not help you more. And I
don't use Excel too.

And maybe ask the people over at
http://groups.google.com/group/python-excel if they can help you.

Regards,
Johannes

[bob gailer]

On 11/3/2013 4:48 PM, renato.barbos...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://pastebin.com/N9dgaHTx
>
> With this program I can read a csv file with 3 columns, in one of these columns I need to read the value more high and multiply by 0.632 and with result, search in the same column by a value that aproximate with this result, and then return the vector position.

Oh ... will you please explain in good English and a lot more detail. I
can only begin to guess from that what you want. Guessing wastes all our
time.

[Denis McMahon]

Why use Python? Why not simply write excel to do the calculations?

Assuming PV, MV and SP are in columns, you simply need to write your
equations for Kp, Ki and Kd so that they reference the relevant columns,
and then past them down the whole spreadsheet.

Seems to me like you're using a sledgehammer to shell a peanut.

--
Denis McMahon, denismf...@gmail.com

[MRAB]

On 03/11/2013 21:53, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/11/2013 21:22, bob gailer wrote:

>> On 11/3/2013 11:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:
>>> I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
>>> calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
>>> suggestion about how can I do this?

>> You could start by explaining what those terms mean. They have no direct
>> relationship to Python.
>>
>> Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum theory? Telephony?
>>
>> P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?
>>
>> Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.
>>
>
> According to http://www.acronymfinder.com there are only 85 meanings for
> PV, 75 for MV and a mere 290 for SP so simply take your pick :)
>

If you put all "PV MV SP" into Google you get results about Process
Dynamics/Control. Does that help? :-)

[bob gailer]

Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his problem so we
can offer solutions.

[rusi]

You need something like this?

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5425210/shortcut-to-apply-a-formula-to-an-entire-column-in-excel

[Dan Stromberg]

On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira <renato.barbos...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

You're being rather vague, so my answer is vague too.  I won't attempt to deal with the formulas for your conversions - apparently that's your business.

But for dealing with xls files, I recommend saving to and reading from .csv files; Python deals great with these.

If you're not concerned about getting (further) locked into a dying, binary-only platform, you could use xlrd and xlwt though.

It looks like xlrd runs on 2.x and 3.x, while xlwt is still 2.x only - that's another reason to go with csv, which works well with 2.x and 3.x for reading and writing.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 04/11/2013 00:16, bob gailer wrote:
> Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his problem so we
> can offer solutions.
>

It's also the job of the responder to help if possible, e.g. by
providing some context with their messages, which is clearly absent above.

[Denis McMahon]

For some reason OP is now continuing the conversation with my by email
and adding me to his social networks.

To the OP - observation - in the original post you said .xls file,
not .csv file. If your data is in .csv format, you should have said so,
not called it an .xls file.

If you ant to convert your .csv containing columns a, b and c into a .csv
containing columns a, b, c, x, y and z, then the solution is to read your
existing .csv file one line at a time, calculate the extra values x, y
and z, and then write the 6 values to a new file.

You might want to delete the old file and rename the new one to the old
name when you finish, that might be part of the implementation
requirements.

--
Denis McMahon, denismf...@gmail.com

[renato.barbos...@gmail.com]

Thanks for all the help, I finished the program, follow the download link and a brief explanation of the same (in Portuguese, my native language), I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.

http://mundodacana.blogspot.com.br/2013/11/programa-para-calculo-de-constantes-pid.html

Python commands :D

[Rick Johnson]

On Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:32:46 PM UTC-6, Denis McMahon wrote:
> Seems to me like you're using a sledgehammer to shell a peanut.

And hopefully he knows whether or not he has a peanut allergy
before he commits to enjoying the fruits of his labor.

[Rick Johnson]

bob gailer wrote:
> Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum
> theory? Telephony?
>
> P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?
>
> Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.

bob later gailer wrote:
> Oh ... will you please explain in good English and a lot
> more detail. I can only begin to guess from that what you
> want. Guessing wastes all our time.

bob even later gailer wrote:
> Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his
> problem so we can offer solutions.

bob gailer always writes:
> Bob Gailer
> XXX-XXX-XXXX
> XXXXXX XXXX XX

Urm Bob, i'm see you're getting off to a "wonderful" start
here, but it might behoove you to know that including any
personal contact information in your emails in not a good
idea. In fact it's quite dangerous.

This is a PUBLIC group after all, and not only is that
information available to ALL group members (for better or
worse) but it's available to everyone on the internet.

Just uh, FYI there fella.

Cheers.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbos...@gmail.com wrote:
> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.
>

I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)

[Alister]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:10:02 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbos...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have
>> generated.
>>
>>
> I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
> extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
> pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
> should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)

As a native of England I have to agree
it is far to arrogant to expect everyone else to be able to speak good
English when I can barley order a beer in any other language.
(even or especially in the USA)




--
Only through hard work and perseverance can one truly suffer.

[Chris Angelico]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeparatedByACommonLanguage

ChrisA

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:

> As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant to expect
> everyone else to be able to speak good English when I can barley order a
> beer in any other language. (even or especially in the USA)

Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)

No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error to make.
The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain similar to wheat or
oats. Also "far too arrogant".

But yes, English is a tricky language. Who would imagine that "ghoti"
could legitimately be pronounced "fish"?

"gh" sounds like F, as in "enough" (enuf)

"o" sounds like I, as in "women" (wimmin)

"ti" sounds like SH, as in "station" (stayshun)



--
Steven

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:10:02 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbos...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have
>> generated.
>>
>>
> I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
> extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
> pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
> should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)

Words like "sorry", "pardon me", etc. are the social grease to smooth out
interactions between people. Instead, I read such apologies as a flag
that we ought to make allowances for any grammatical or spelling errors
they may make, rather than to interpret them as signs of laziness or
stupidity.

I'm inclined to forgive nearly any language error from somebody who is
trying their best to communicate, while people who merely cannot be
bothered to use language which is at least an approximation to
grammatically correct, syntactically valid, correctly-spelled sentences
inspire similar apathy in me. If they can't be bothered to write as well
as they are capable of, I can't be bothered to answer their questions.

A few minor errors is one thing, but when you see people whose posts are
full of error after error and an apparent inability to get English syntax
right, you have to wonder how on earth they expect to be a programmer?
Compilers are even less forgiving of errors than is my wife, and she once
kicked a man to death for using a colon where a semi-colon was required.
(Only joking. He didn't actually die.)

This doesn't apply to people who gave some sort of sign that they're
doing the best that they can, whether it is due to inexperience,
dyslexia, being Foreign *wink*, or even broken keyboard. ("Nw kyboard is
on ordr, pls xcus my lack of lttr aftr D and b4 F.")

But it does amuse me when non-native English speakers apologise, then
write a post which is better written, more clear, and far more articulate
than the native English speakers :-)


--
Steven

[Paul Rudin]

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp....@pearwood.info> writes:

> A few minor errors is one thing, but when you see people whose posts are
> full of error after error and an apparent inability to get English syntax
> right, you have to wonder how on earth they expect to be a programmer?

The irritating thing is apparent lack of care. A post is written once
and will be seen (perhaps not read) by many people. People post with the
intention of others reading their words. If they can't be bothered to
take a little care in writing, why should we spend time reading?

[Mark Lawrence]

Semi-colons or more accurately the lack of them, used to be the bain of
my life. Good old CORAL 66 had its BEGIN, END and COMMENT (maybe in
single quotes?), but there was no ENDCOMMENT, no guesses how it was
spelt. Could have retired years ago...

>
> This doesn't apply to people who gave some sort of sign that they're
> doing the best that they can, whether it is due to inexperience,
> dyslexia, being Foreign *wink*, or even broken keyboard. ("Nw kyboard is
> on ordr, pls xcus my lack of lttr aftr D and b4 F.")

I had another wonderful day yesterday hacking foreigners to bits and
burning them, great fun. Is the last part above in parentheses meant to
be related to a broken keyboard or is it simply modern textspeak?

>
> But it does amuse me when non-native English speakers apologise, then
> write a post which is better written, more clear, and far more articulate
> than the native English speakers :-)
>

I wish you'd written "clearer" rather than "more clear", this would have
shown that your English is good like what mine is.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-11-14, Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbos...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.
>
> I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
> extremely difficult language.

It's certainly not necessary from anybody for whom English is not a
first language -- and that's usually pretty easy to guess based on
domains and personal names.

There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking English
and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but they never do.

So a good rule of thumb is:

If you think maybe you need to apologize for your English, you don't

If it never occurred to you that you need to apologize, you might.

;)

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Let's all show human
at CONCERN for REVERAND MOON's
gmail.com legal difficulties!!

[Grant Edwards]

Just because English is your second language it doesn't mean you don't
need to pay attention to what keys you're hitting and proof-read a
posting before hitting "send".

And yes, people can _easily_ tell the difference between errors caused
by being lazy/sloppy and errors caused by writing in a second
language.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Let me do my TRIBUTE
at to FISHNET STOCKINGS ...
gmail.com

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> And yes, people can _easily_ tell the difference between errors caused
> by being lazy/sloppy and errors caused by writing in a second
> language.

Yes, and even among people for whom English is the first language,
idioms can cause offense. On another list I'm on (Savoynet), one
person got somewhat offended at someone apparently calling him
completely ignorant, when actually no such slight was intended.
Welcome to English, where we all use the same words (mostly) but you
really need to be careful talking about knocking someone up...

ChrisA

[Alister]

And "Bumming a fag" can be taken completely the wrong way.



--
Some programming languages manage to absorb change, but withstand
progress.
-- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2013-11-15, Steven D'Aprano

<steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:
>> As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant
>> to expect everyone else to be able to speak good English when
>> I can barley order a beer in any other language. (even or
>> especially in the USA)
>
> Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)
>
> No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error
> to make. The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain
> similar to wheat or oats. Also "far too arrogant".

I just learned about this kind of error yesterday while browsing
the programming reddit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

--
Neil Cerutti

[Alister]

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:53:58 +0000, Neil Cerutti wrote:

> On 2013-11-15, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp....@pearwood.info>
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:
>>> As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant to expect
>>> everyone else to be able to speak good English when I can barley order
>>> a beer in any other language. (even or especially in the USA)
>>
>> Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)
>>
>> No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error to make.
>> The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain similar to wheat
>> or oats. Also "far too arrogant".

Damn Spell checker, at least it chose a good pun I could almost get away
with claiming it was deliberate ;-)

But also proves the point that if an Englishman can make simple mistakes
after nearly half a century of usage then the no native speakers should
be admired for doing as well as they do,

>
> I just learned about this kind of error yesterday while browsing the
> programming reddit!
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

except I was not correcting/criticising a grammatical error but defending
those than make them.





--
Lawrence Radiation Laboratory keeps all its data in an old gray trunk.

[Alister]

and if you haven't seen it before :-

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn
mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.





--
Liar:
one who tells an unpleasant truth.
-- Oliver Herford

[xDog Walker]

On Friday 2013 November 15 06:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
> There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking English
> and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but they never do.

Can you supply an example of the form such an apology might take?

--
Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque wet
strainers.

[Tim Chase]

On 2013-11-15 13:43, xDog Walker wrote:
> On Friday 2013 November 15 06:58, Grant Edwards wrote:

> > There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking
> > English and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but
> > they never do.
>

> Can you supply an example of the form such an apology might take?

"I'm sorry that, despite growing up steeped in the language, I can't
manage to put together two coherent thoughts or practically apply any
of the spelling/grammar/punctuation/capitalization lessons provided
at no cost to me throughout 12+ years of academic instruction."

Harumph. Non-native speakers get my extensive compassion--English
really is a nutso language, and any attempt to use it for
communicating should be lauded in the face of that challenge.
However, native speakers have a higher bar, IHMO.

-tkc

[Larry Hudson]

Not to start another flame-war (I hope), but our Greek friend is a good example of that. It's
not surprising he has so much trouble with his code.

However, that's just a side comment. I wanted to mention my personal peeve...

I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native English-speakers to use 'to' in
place of 'too' (to little, to late.), "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and 'there'
in place of 'their' (a foot in there mouth.) There are similar mis-usages, of course, but those
three seem to be the most common.

Now, I'm a 76-year-old curmudgeon and maybe overly sensitive, but I felt a need to vent a bit.

-=- Larry -=-

[Mark Lawrence]

On 16/11/2013 02:01, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
> Given that "English" contains remnants of latin (from the Roman
> occupation), saxons (a germanic tribe), angles (another germanic tribe),
> danish (after the joining of the anglo-saxon), other vikings (norse), then
> the norman invasion (which was a mix of norse and old french), etc. -- the
> overlapping of orthographic elements is no surprise.
>

I'm trying to work out what the(?) language should be called given the
above list. Sure "English" is derived from those "angles", but by the
time you've derived all the other names and strung them all together,
phew, what a mouthful. It's best not to go there, yes?

Also consider how the language has changed from Chaucer, through
Shakespear, Dickins and now J.K. Rowling.

Then there's the centre of the universe, "Breamore" is prounced
"Bremmer" and used to be spelt "Bremmer". Don't ask :)

[William Ray Wing]

On Nov 16, 2013, at 1:17 AM, Larry Hudson <org...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[byte]

>
> However, that's just a side comment. I wanted to mention my personal peeve...
>
> I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native English-speakers to use 'to' in place of 'too' (to little, to late.), "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and 'there' in place of 'their' (a foot in there mouth.) There are similar mis-usages, of course, but those three seem to be the most common.
>
> Now, I'm a 76-year-old curmudgeon and maybe overly sensitive, but I felt a need to vent a bit.
>
> -=- Larry -=-
>

And my personal peeve - using it's (contraction) when its (possessive) should have been used; occasionally vice-versa.

-Bill

[Roy Smith]

In article <mailman.2714.1384611...@python.org>,

William Ray Wing <w...@mac.com> wrote:

> And my personal peeve - using it's (contraction) when its (possessive)
> should have been used; occasionally vice-versa.

And one of mine is when people write, "Here, here!" to signify
agreement. What they really mean to write is, "Hear, hear!", meaning,
"Listen to what that person said".

[Paul Smith]

The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
"lose". These words are not related, and they don't sound the same.
Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least once a
day.

[Andrew Berg]

On 2013.11.16 11:02, Paul Smith wrote:
> The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
> "lose". These words are not related, and they don't sound the same.
> Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least once a
> day.

Don't be surprised if such people pronounce them the same; a lot of such errors are caused by learning incorrect pronunciation.
For example, people often write 'should of' because that is what they hear (and what they end up saying).

--
CPython 3.3.2 | Windows NT 6.2.9200 / FreeBSD 10.0

[MRAB]

On 17/11/2013 03:44, Andrew Berg wrote:
> On 2013.11.16 11:02, Paul Smith wrote:
>> The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
>> "lose". These words are not related, and they don't sound the
>> same. Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least
>> once a day.
> Don't be surprised if such people pronounce them the same; a lot of
> such errors are caused by learning incorrect pronunciation. For
> example, people often write 'should of' because that is what they
> hear (and what they end up saying).
>

I get annoyed by those who say "pronounciation"...

[Chris Angelico]

I decided a while ago that my life would be alot better[1] if I didn't
get annoyed at misuse of English, but instead used it as a source of
amusement. Oddities can be found everywhere... our hymn book at church
has one nasty oops where a "not" is mistyped as "now", rather changing
the sense of the sentence. And sometimes it doesn't even take a single
letter of difference - someone who'd recently been doing all the
touristy stuff around Europe was discussing the historical Battle of
Thermopylae, and said "Some of us were there (pause) earlier this
year" - several people began snickering in the pause.

ChrisA

[1] Bahahahaha, trolled you!

[Andrew Berg]

On 2013.11.16 22:16, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I decided a while ago that my life would be alot better[1]

For those who haven't yet seen it:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

[Neil Cerutti]

On 2013-11-16, Larry Hudson <org...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> However, that's just a side comment. I wanted to mention my
> personal peeve...
>
> I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native
> English-speakers to use 'to' in place of 'too' (to little, to
> late.), "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and
> 'there' in place of 'their' (a foot in there mouth.) There are
> similar mis-usages, of course, but those three seem to be the
> most common.
>
> Now, I'm a 76-year-old curmudgeon and maybe overly sensitive,
> but I felt a need to vent a bit.

The cases where written and spoken English diverge are hotbets of
word usage problems. I'm glad the issue doesn't exist for
programming languages, which thankfully don't really have a
colloquial or spoken version.

Written English probably changes much slower than spoken English,
and we have the curmudgeon's to thank.

--
Neil Cerutti

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-11-16, Larry Hudson <org...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> And yes, people can _easily_ tell the difference between errors
>> caused by being lazy/sloppy and errors caused by writing in a second
>> language.
>>
> Not to start another flame-war (I hope), but our Greek friend is a
> good example of that. It's not surprising he has so much trouble
> with his code.
>
> However, that's just a side comment. I wanted to mention my personal
> peeve...
>
> I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native
> English-speakers to use 'to' in place of 'too' (to little, to late.),
> "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and 'there' in place of
> 'their' (a foot in there mouth.) There are similar mis-usages, of
> course, but those three seem to be the most common.

And I'm convinced that the more proficient the typist, the more often
one makes those sorts of mistakes when composing text. If you've got
to hunt and peck on the keyboard, then you've got to actually think
about how each word is spelled, and you realize which one you're
actually typing. If you're a proficient touch typist (and are typing
something on-the-fly rather than transcribing), I think the "sound" of
the word is more directly connected to the fingers without benefit of
grammatical conext invervening to choose the correct homonym.

I don't make those mistakes typing on a phone (where I have to
actually think about the act of typing), but I do make them with a
regular keyboard, where I don't have to think about mechanics of
typing the words.

OTOH, maybe that's just me...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I am having FUN...
at I wonder if it's NET FUN or
gmail.com GROSS FUN?

[David Robinow]

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...

> I don't make those mistakes typing on a phone (where I have to
> actually think about the act of typing), but I do make them with a
> regular keyboard, where I don't have to think about mechanics of
> typing the words.
>
> OTOH, maybe that's just me...

It's me too. I certainly know the difference between 'there' and
'their', etc. but that fact is not always reflected in my typing.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 16/11/2013 17:02, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 10:11 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
> "lose". These words are not related, and they don't sound the same.
> Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least once a
> day.
>

Somebody published a link to this poem some months back, I think it's
worth repeating http://www.i18nguy.com/chaos.html

[Gregory Ewing]

Neil Cerutti wrote:
> Written English probably changes much slower than spoken English,
> and we have the curmudgeon's to thank.

The curmudgeon's what? :-)

--
Greg

[Steven D'Aprano]

The curmudgeon's cudgel of course.

*wack* "Will you speak proper now or wot?"


--
Steven

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> and if you haven't seen it before :-
>
> Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
> waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
> the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
> mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn
> mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

And the obligatory response:

Iltnsegnetiry I'm sdutynig tihs crsrootaivnel pnoheenmon at the
Dptmnearet of Liuniigctss at Absytrytewh Uivsreitny and my
exartrnairdoy doisiervecs waleoetderhlhy cndairotct the picsbeliud
fdnngiis rrgdinaeg the rtlvaeie dfuictlify of ialtnstny ttalrisanng
sentences. My rsceeerhars deplveeod a cnionevent ctnoiaptorn at
hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il taht dosnatterems that the
hhpsteyios uuiqelny wrtaarns criieltidby if the aoussmpitn that the
prreoecandpne of your wrods is not eendetxd is uueniqtolnabse.
Aoilegpos for aidnoptg a cdocianorttry vwpiienot but, ttoheliacrley
spkeaing, lgitehnneng the words can mnartafucue an iocnuurgons
samenttet that is vlrtiauly isbpilechmoenrne.

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aoilegpos for aidnoptg a cdocianorttry vwpiienot but, ttoheliacrley
> spkeaing, lgitehnneng the words can mnartafucue an iocnuurgons
> samenttet that is vlrtiauly isbpilechmoenrne.

isbpilechmoenrne. I totally want to find an excuse to use that word
somewhere.. It just looks awesome.

Paradoxically, it's actually more likely that a computer can figure
out what you're saying here. In fact, I could easily write a little
script that reads /usr/share/dict/words (or equivalent) and attempts
to decode your paragraph. Hmm. You know what, I think I will. It's now
0958 UTC, let's see how long this takes me.

Meh. I did something stupid and decided to use a regular expression.
It's not 1020 UTC, so that's 21 minutes of figuring out what I was
doing wrong with the regex and 1 minute solving the original problem.
But here's your translated paragraph:

-- cut --
Interestingly I'm studying this controversial phenomenon at the
Department of Linguistics at Absytrytewh University and my
extraordinary discoveries wholeheartedly contradict the picsbeliud
findings regarding the relative difficulty of instantly translating
sentences. My researchers developed a convenient contraption at
hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il that demonstrates that the
hypothesis uniquely warrants credibility if the assumption that the
preponderance of your words is not extended is unquestionable.
Apologies for adopting a contradictory viewpoint but, theoretically
speaking, lengthening the words can manufacture an incongruous
statement that is virtually incomprehensible.
-- cut --

It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
"hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:

words = {}
for word in open("/usr/share/dict/words"):
word=word.strip().lower()
transformed = word if len(word)==1 else
word[0]+''.join(sorted(word[1:-1]))+word[-1]
words.setdefault(transformed,set()).add(word)
words.setdefault(transformed.capitalize(),set()).add(word.capitalize())

import re
for line in open("input"):
line=line.strip()
for word in re.split("(\W+)",line):
try:
transformed = word if len(word)==1 else
word[0]+''.join(sorted(word[1:-1]))+word[-1]
realword=words[transformed]
if len(realword)>1: realword=repr(realword)
else: realword=next(iter(realword))
line=line.replace(word,realword)
except LookupError: # catches three errors, all of which mean
we shouldn't translate anything
pass
print(line)


Yeah, it's not the greatest code, but it works :)

ChrisA

[Ian Kelly]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
> "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
> as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
> maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:

It's been posted widely on the Internet, and you can probably find the
full solution by googling it up. For now, I'll just leave the hints
that the name of the university is Welsh, and that the second word
above is spelled in the British way, which is probably why your script
couldn't find it in a dictionary.

[Mark Lawrence]

On 19/11/2013 08:53, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>> and if you haven't seen it before :-
>>
>> Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
>> waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
>> the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
>> mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn
>> mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
>

> And the obligatory response:
>
> Iltnsegnetiry I'm sdutynig tihs crsrootaivnel pnoheenmon at the
> Dptmnearet of Liuniigctss at Absytrytewh Uivsreitny and my
> exartrnairdoy doisiervecs waleoetderhlhy cndairotct the picsbeliud
> fdnngiis rrgdinaeg the rtlvaeie dfuictlify of ialtnstny ttalrisanng
> sentences. My rsceeerhars deplveeod a cnionevent ctnoiaptorn at
> hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il taht dosnatterems that the
> hhpsteyios uuiqelny wrtaarns criieltidby if the aoussmpitn that the
> prreoecandpne of your wrods is not eendetxd is uueniqtolnabse.

> Aoilegpos for aidnoptg a cdocianorttry vwpiienot but, ttoheliacrley
> spkeaing, lgitehnneng the words can mnartafucue an iocnuurgons
> samenttet that is vlrtiauly isbpilechmoenrne.
>

How did you get onto my system and steal my code, it's under copyright
you know? :)

[Mark Lawrence]

On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
> "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
> as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
> maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:
>

I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the
teaching of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name
when it's put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be
turning in her grave :)

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>
>> It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
>> "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
>> as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
>> maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:
>>
>
> I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the teaching
> of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name when it's
> put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be turning in her
> grave :)

Oh, I recognized Aberystwyth (though I can't spell it without the help
of a search engine), it was the second I wasn't sure about. (Though
Ian was right - I was working with a limited dictionary, which is why
it didn't pick that one up.) I guessed Scots for the second one
because it didn't look Welsh and it seemed plausible to get a
mostly-English paragraph with one Welsh name and one Scots word.
Wrong, but hopefully not so implausibly wrong as to cause gyration of
the encephalographically-challenged.

Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
came up in a fantasy name generator.

Okay, maybe that's not exactly fair, but I'd still be curious to know
how many of you know Aussie place names :)

ChrisA

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Mark Lawrence <bream...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>
>> It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
>> "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
>> as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
>> maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:
>>
>
> I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the teaching
> of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name when it's
> put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be turning in her
> grave :)

Oh, I think I see where the misunderstanding may have been. I said
"It" couldn't figure those out, meaning the script; one of them isn't
a word at all, another one is a place name (and therefore not in its
dictionary), and one happened to be a form of the word that it didn't
have (as it had the equivalent with a 'z'), and I wasn't able to
figure it out myself either. But I grokked the university's name no
trouble. No other university has that many y's and so few other
vowels. :)

ChrisA

[Walter Hurry]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:48:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> I guessed Scots for the second one because it
> didn't look Welsh and it seemed plausible to get a mostly-English
> paragraph with one Welsh name and one Scots word.

The word is *Scottish*. I think that's what Mark was driving at.

[Chris Angelico]

Oh. I've heard both, thought "Scots" was a valid term for the
language. My apologies. Scottish, then.

ChrisA

[Alister]

the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch is
a type of whisky.


--
You should never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for
freedom and liberty.
-- Henrik Ibsen

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch is
> a type of whisky.

Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-August/030264.html

Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you
in on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

ChrisA

[Alister]

To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
approximation there of)



--
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

[Alister]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

[Alister]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

[Alister]

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

[Mark Lawrence]

On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
> can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
> came up in a fantasy name generator.
>
> Okay, maybe that's not exactly fair, but I'd still be curious to know
> how many of you know Aussie place names :)
>

An interesting comparison as your country is slightly larger than ours,
but I suspect we've actually many more place names. Still with no
search engine at all, I've heard of Parramatta so they must have one or
more sports teams, so sticking a pin onto my screen I'll guess at
Cerinabbin, close or must try harder?

[Tim Golden]

On 19/11/2013 13:50, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
>> can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
>> came up in a fantasy name generator.

I thought that's how they came up with Australian place names normally?

TJG

[Mark Lawrence]

Thinking about it perhaps "fantasy name generator" is a modern day,
politically correct term for an Aussie who's had too many beers? That
would put the question above firmly into context.

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Tim Golden <ma...@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
> On 19/11/2013 13:50, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>>> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>>> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
>>> can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
>>> came up in a fantasy name generator.
>
> I thought that's how they came up with Australian place names normally?

Certainly not. The early white settlers had a very sophisticated
technique for naming places, and one that showed great respect for the
prior owners of the land: find the nearest person with darker skin
than yours, point to the surrounding area, and say "What's this place
called?". That's why most Australian place names translate to, in the
local language of the area, "Huh?" or "What do you mean?" or "I
haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, old chap", or
occasionally "Place of the Elbow" or "Dung Heap" once they figured out
how easy these people were to troll.

No, the fantasy name generators are used in the US of A. And Canada
just picks someone else's place name and adds "-eh" to it.

ChrisA

[MRAB]

You need to distinguish between "Scottish English" and "Scots", the
latter being related to English, but isn't English, much as Danish is
related to Swedish, but isn't Swedish.

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:06 AM, MRAB <pyt...@mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> You need to distinguish between "Scottish English" and "Scots", the
> latter being related to English, but isn't English, much as Danish is
> related to Swedish, but isn't Swedish.

Ah. When I referred to a "Scots" word, I was talking about the Gaelic
language, which has a number of delightfully expressive terms just
waiting to be borrowed!

ChrisA

[Chris Angelico]

Here's a response from a full-blooded Scot on the subject.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Derrick McCLURE <j.d.m...@virgin.net> wrote:
> No, Chris, you haven't been led astray. The language is referred to as
> Scots, not Scottish. There is an academic journal called Scottish Language,
> which I edited for many years, but the meaning of that is "language in
> Scotland" - it publishes articles on Scots, Gaelic, and English as used in
> Scotland.

So there you are. Your piece of random linguistics trivia for the day. :)

Enjoy!

ChrisA

[Chris Angelico]

By the way: I've since been corrected, and what I meant was not
actually the Scottish Gaelic language but the one that is actually
referred to as "Scots". My clarification was unhelpfully unclear, and
I apologize.

ChrisA

[Grant Edwards]

While I certainly couldn't read that at normal speed, there were only
a few words that I had to stop and actually puzzle over...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! ... My pants just went
at on a wild rampage through a
gmail.com Long Island Bowling Alley!!

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
> can call it.

Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! If I had a Q-TIP, I
at could prevent th' collapse
gmail.com of NEGOTIATIONS!!

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
>> can call it.
>
> Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.

Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
which teams are real and which are integer.

ChrisA

[Tim Golden]

On 20/11/2013 16:19, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>>> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>>> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
>>> can call it.
>>
>> Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.
>

> Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
> which teams are real and which are integer.

Which one was it, by the way? (Which was the fake place name?) Did I
miss an email in this gripping series?

TJG

[Chris Angelico]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Tim Golden <ma...@timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
> On 20/11/2013 16:19, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>>> On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>>>> ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>>>> Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
>>>> can call it.
>>>
>>> Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.
>>

>> Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
>> which teams are real and which are integer.
>
> Which one was it, by the way? (Which was the fake place name?) Did I
> miss an email in this gripping series?

I got a private email guessing (correctly), but nobody who actually
_knew_, and nobody who was able to deduce the answer based on the
structure of the words, which means I picked a sufficiently plausible
fake :) But the actual fake is Cerinabbin, utterly and completely made
up for the post. Parramatta is apparently known to a few people - it's
in Sydney; Warrnambool and Mordialloc are both places in Victoria.

ChrisA

[Walter Hurry]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:33:02 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> But the actual fake is Cerinabbin

You might have included Woolloomooloo in the list!

[Grant Edwards]

Anybody from the early days of TCP/IP networking on PC-DOS and Mac OS
would also recognize Wollongong even if they couldn't tell you where
it was.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I had pancake makeup
at for brunch!
gmail.com

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:58:27 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:48:10 +1100, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com>
> declaimed the following:

>
>>Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
>>ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
>>Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you

>>can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one came
>>up in a fantasy name generator.
>>
>>

> Parramatta reads like a accented "parameter"
>
> Cerinabbin and Mordialloc sound like names from the Welsh influenced
> Arthurian mythos: cf: Ceredwyn, Mordred (or a new word for a core dump
> caused by memory faults: morte-alloc, death in allocation)


Cerinabbin is the fake name, although there is a suburb Morrabbin in
Melbourne (and Darebin as well, which is pronounced "Darra Bin" not "Dare
Bin").

Many placenames in Australia are borrowed from the UK, or named after
British Royalty or explorers. Melbourne itself was, for a short time,
named "Batmania", after the explorer John Batman. Others are based on
native Australian Aboriginal words or placenames, such as Wagga Wagga,
Woolloomoloo (a real place with an imaginary university, notable for the
famous Monty Python Philosopher's Sketch), Coolangatta, Kalgoorlie, Moe
(pronounced "Mo-e", not "Mow"), Koo Wee Rup, Didjabringabeeralong, and
our capital city, Canberra.

Actually, Didjabringabeeralong is a town in the land of Fourecks (or XXXX
for those who can't spell), invented by Terry Pratchett for the novel
"The Lost Continent". But the others are real.

For a serious look at Australian placenames named after Australian
Aboriginal words, see wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names_of_Aboriginal_origin


--
Steven

[Tim Delaney]

On 21 November 2013 11:58, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp....@pearwood.info> wrote:

For a serious look at Australian placenames named after Australian
Aboriginal words, see wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_place_names_of_Aboriginal_origin

Just noticed that my town was missing - added it:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittagong,_New_South_Wales

Tim Delaney