When someone from Britain speaks, Americans hear a "British accent"...
muldoon
and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
"American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
Be blunt. We Americans need to know. Should we try to change the way we
speak? Are there certain words that sound particularly goofy? Please
help us with your advice on this awkward matter.
BJ in Texas
Which of the British accents?
BJ
Grant Edwards
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence.
That depends on the accent. I believe that's probably true for
the educated south of England, BBC, received pronunciation. I
don't think that's true for some of the other dialects from
northern areas (e.g. Liverpool) or the "cockney" accent.
> Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to represent
> their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
I too have always wondered about this.
> Be blunt. We Americans need to know. Should we try to change
> the way we speak? Are there certain words that sound
> particularly goofy? Please help us with your advice on this
> awkward matter.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Mr and Mrs PED, can
at I borrow 26.7
visi.com
Michael Hoffman
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>
> Be blunt. We Americans need to know.
To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python. Surely
selecting the right forum to use indicates more sophistication and high
intelligence than the way one speaks. ;-)
--
Michael Hoffman
Grant Edwards
> muldoon wrote:
>> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
>> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
>> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
>> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>>
>> Be blunt. We Americans need to know.
>
> To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
Monty Python was mostly Brits?
> Surely selecting the right forum to use indicates more
> sophistication and high intelligence than the way one speaks.
> ;-)
Well, there is that...
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Hello... IRON
at CURTAIN? Send over a
visi.com SAUSAGE PIZZA! World War
III? No thanks!
Jarek Zgoda
>>To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
>
> Monty Python was mostly Brits?
Wasn't they all Brits?
--
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/
Grant Edwards
> Grant Edwards napisał(a):
>
>>>To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
>>
>> Monty Python was mostly Brits?
>
> Wasn't they all Brits?
Nope. Terry Gilliam was from Minneapolis.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! RELAX!!... This
at is gonna be a HEALING
visi.com EXPERIENCE!! Besides,
I work for DING DONGS!
muldoon
This is from California, not far from where they did the old atomic
bomb tests. Be tolerant. Mutation you know.
Now, what forum would you recommend? Any help would be appreciated.
Devan L
Google.
Robert Kern
> Now, what forum would you recommend? Any help would be appreciated.
Not here. Beyond that, you're on your own.
--
Robert Kern
rk...@ucsd.edu
"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter
Grant Edwards
> Thats like posting about Google here because the newsgroup is hosted on
> Google.
Except the newsgroup isn't "hosted on Google", and it's far
less interesting than Monty Python.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! "THE LITTLE PINK
at FLESH SISTERS," I saw them
visi.com at th' FLUROESCENT BULB
MAKERS CONVENTION...
Mike Holmans
tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>On 2005-06-28, muldoon <bria...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
>> and high intelligence.
>
>That depends on the accent. I believe that's probably true for
>the educated south of England, BBC, received pronunciation. I
>don't think that's true for some of the other dialects from
>northern areas (e.g. Liverpool) or the "cockney" accent.
>
>> Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to represent
>> their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
>> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>
>I too have always wondered about this.
Since you've acknowledged that it's only the RP accent which gets that
respect in the US (and since I speak it, I rather enjoy my visits
across the pond) and others are either cute or obvious hicks, it
shouldn't be a surprise that the same applies to the wide range of
accents used by Americans.
The strong Appalachian accent of the guide who took us round some
caves in WV last year was the epitome of unsophistication - although
what he said was extremely informative and delved into some advanced
science.
My wife's an Okie, but she speaks the US equivalent of RP - the one
used by newsreaders on the main terrestrial TV networks and which is
commonly thought to be used mostly in Ohio and other places just south
of the Great Lakes. If there's such a thing as a standard "American
accent", that's it. It neither sounds dumb nor clever - just American.
Some of those sonorous slow talkers from the South, and majestic bass
African-Americans like James Earl Jones or Morgan Freeman, have far
more gravitas than any English accent can: to us, such people sound
monumental.
But most of the obviously regional accents in the US sound cute or
picturesque, while the ones Americans tend to regard as hick accents
just sound comical.
The problem which a lot of fairly-midstream American accent users face
is that it's the same sort of thing which Brits try and imitate when
they want to suggest a snake-oil salesman. At bottom, an American
accent doesn't mark someone out to a Brit as dumb or unsophisticated,
but the immediate suspicion generated is that they're a phony and
likely to be saying stuff without much regard for its accuracy.
Cheers,
Mike
Jarek Zgoda
>>>>To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
>>>Monty Python was mostly Brits?
>>
>>Wasn't they all Brits?
>
> Nope. Terry Gilliam was from Minneapolis.
Are you sure there are no Brits in Minneapolis?
Michael Hoffman
> Michael Hoffman wrote:
>>muldoon wrote:
>>
>>>Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
>>>and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
>>>represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
>>>"American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>>>
>>>Be blunt. We Americans need to know.
>>
>>To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python. Surely
>>selecting the right forum to use indicates more sophistication and high
>>intelligence than the way one speaks. ;-)
> This is from California, not far from where they did the old atomic
> bomb tests. Be tolerant. Mutation you know.
First you say "be blunt," now you say "be tolerant?" Make up your mind!
;-)
--
Michael Hoffman
c d saunter
Well you could draw a tenuous Python link on the headache inducing subject of
trying to remember which spelling is which when doing
something like:
thirdparty_module_1.color = thirdparty_module_2.colour
>>> from __future__ import sane_spelling :-)
cds
James Stroud
"trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn word they say. British talk
sounds like gibberish to me for the most part. Out of all of these movies,
the only thing I ever could understand was something like "I've got the beast
in my sights misses Pennymoney". Haaar! Wow, that's a good one.
I think James Bond did it for Americans. He always wore a dinner jacket and
played a lot of backarack--which is only cool because you have to bet a lot
of money. Anyway, if you insist on making distinctions between the backwoods
of apalachia and european aristocracy, I should remind you of the recessive
genetic diseases that have historically plagued europe's nobility.
--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095
Grant Edwards
>
>>>>>To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
>>>>Monty Python was mostly Brits?
>>>
>>>Wasn't they all Brits?
>>
>> Nope. Terry Gilliam was from Minneapolis.
>
> Are you sure there are no Brits in Minneapolis?
There are plenty of Brit's in Minneapolis. My favorite radio
DJ is one of them.
Perhap's Gilliam has lived in Britain long enough to be
considered a Brit, but he was born in Minneapolis, graduated
from College in LA, and didn't move to Britain until he was
something like 27. I believe he has British citizenship, so if
that's the criterion, he's a Brit now. However, back when he
was in Monty Python, he'd only lived in England for few years.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! How's it going in
at those MODULAR LOVE UNITS??
visi.com
Erik Max Francis
> My wife's an Okie, but she speaks the US equivalent of RP - the one
> used by newsreaders on the main terrestrial TV networks and which is
> commonly thought to be used mostly in Ohio and other places just south
> of the Great Lakes. If there's such a thing as a standard "American
> accent", that's it. It neither sounds dumb nor clever - just American.
The linguistic term for that accent, by the way, is General American.
> The problem which a lot of fairly-midstream American accent users face
> is that it's the same sort of thing which Brits try and imitate when
> they want to suggest a snake-oil salesman.
And due to overcorrection, typically do a really bad job of it :-).
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
If I had never met you / Surely I'd be someone else
-- Anggun
Grant Edwards
> I think James Bond did it for Americans. He always wore a
> dinner jacket and played a lot of backarack--which is only
> cool because you have to bet a lot of money. Anyway, if you
> insist on making distinctions between the backwoods of
> apalachia and european aristocracy,
What, you think they sound the same?
> I should remind you of the recessive genetic diseases that
> have historically plagued europe's nobility.
If don't think the English are willing to laugh at the
nobility, you must not have seen the "Twit of the Year" skit or
the election skit with what's-his-name (pronounced "mangrove
throatwarbler").
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I wonder if I should
at put myself in ESCROW!!
visi.com
Grant Edwards
>> The problem which a lot of fairly-midstream American accent users face
>> is that it's the same sort of thing which Brits try and imitate when
>> they want to suggest a snake-oil salesman.
>
> And due to overcorrection, typically do a really bad job of it :-).
That reminds me of a character in one of the old Dr. Who
series. I thought this character had some sort of speach
impediment. After a few episodes I caught a few cultural
allusions made by the character and it finally dawned on me the
the character was supposed to be an _American_.
I assume that when I try to speak with a British accent I sound
just as bad to a Brit.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Why is everything
at made of Lycra Spandex?
visi.com
Peter Hansen
> Grant Edwards napisał(a):
>
>>> To be blunt, I have no idea what this has to do with Python.
>>
>>
>> Monty Python was mostly Brits?
>
>
> Wasn't they all Brits?
I think one was a lumberjack (but he's okay),
which would make him a Canadian, eh?
Peter Maas
> Now, what forum would you recommend? Any help would be appreciated.
alt.culture.us.*
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas, M+R Infosysteme, D-52070 Aachen, Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.M. Kuchling
Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:
>> cool because you have to bet a lot of money. Anyway, if you
>> insist on making distinctions between the backwoods of
>> apalachia and european aristocracy,
>
> What, you think they sound the same?
I think that backwoods American speech is more archaic, and therefore is
possibly closer to historical European speech. Susan Cooper uses this as a
minor plot point in her juvenile novel "King of Shadows", which is about a
20th-century Southern kid who goes back to Elizabethan times and ends up
acting with Shakespeare; his accent ensures that he doesn't sound *too*
strange in 16th-century London.
--amk
Tim Golden
| I think that backwoods American speech is more archaic, and
| therefore is possibly closer to historical European speech.
| Susan Cooper uses this as a minor plot point in her juvenile
| novel "King of Shadows", which is about a 20th-century
| Southern kid who goes back to Elizabethan times and ends up
| acting with Shakespeare; his accent ensures that he doesn't
| sound *too* strange in 16th-century London.
Aha! Bit of North American parochialism there. The fact
that he's a "Southern kid" doesn't say "from the southern
states of North America" to everyone. All right, in fact
it's clear from the context, but I just fancied having a
jab.
In fact, I rather like the fact that he can truthfully
claim to come from Falmouth, which his hearers (including
Queen Elizabeth!) understand to mean the town in the West
Country [of England] whereas in fact he means the town
in Carolina (apparently).
TJG
|
| --amk
| --
| http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
|
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Steven D'Aprano
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
Which American accent?
Texan? Georgian cracker or Maine fisherman? New York taxi driver? Bill
Clinton or Jesse Jackson or George W Bush? California Valley girl,
Arkansas redneck or boyz from th' hood? Paris Hilton or Queen Latifah?
> Be blunt. We Americans need to know. Should we try to change the way we
> speak? Are there certain words that sound particularly goofy? Please
> help us with your advice on this awkward matter.
Speaking as an Australia, the typical "film voice" (eg Harrison
Ford, Tom Cruise, etc) doesn't sound unsophisticated. In fact, when we
hear it, it doesn't sound like an accent at all, such is the influence of
Hollywood. (Which is linguistically impossible, of course, since *every*
way of speaking is by definition an accent.) The Hollywood voice is a
mixture of West Coast and very light mid-Western.
But as for the rest of you, yes, you sound -- strange. It depends on the
specific regional accent. At best, just different. At worst, dumber than a
box of hammers. Which is of course unfair: there is no connection between
accent and intelligence. But by gum, some accents just sound dumber than
others. My fiancee, from Ireland, has worked and lived in the USA for half
her life, and to her you all sound like Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy.
Lest anyone gets offended, I should point out that every English-speaking
country have accents which are considered by others to mark the speaker as
a thick yokel. In Ireland, they look down on Kerrymen. In England, even
Yorkshiremen look down on Summerset, Devon and Dorset accents. And there
is nothing as thick-sounding as a broad Ocker Aussie accent.
But don't worry, there is one thing we all agree on throughout the
English-speaking world: you Americans don't speak English.
There are a few things that you can do to help:
Herb starts with H, not E. It isn't "ouse" or "ospital" or "istory". It
isn't "erb" either. You just sound like tossers when you try to pronounce
herb in the original French. And the same with homage.
Taking of herbs, there is no BAY in basil. And oregano sounds like Ray
Romano, not oh-reg-ano.
And please, fillet of fish only has a silent T if you are speaking French.
Aluminium is al-u-min-ium, not alum-i-num.
Scientists work in a la-bor-atory, not a lab-rat-ory, even if they have
lab rats in the laboratory.
Fans of the X-Men movies and comics will remember Professor Charles
Xavier. Unless you are Spanish (Kh-avier), the X sounds like a Z: Zaviour.
But never never never Xecks-Aviour or Eggs-Savior.
Nuclear. Say no more.
--
Steven.
Dan Sommers
Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> wrote:
> On 2005-06-28, James Stroud <jst...@mbi.ucla.edu> wrote:
>> I think James Bond did it for Americans. He always wore a
>> dinner jacket and played a lot of backarack--which is only
>> cool because you have to bet a lot of money. Anyway, if you
>> insist on making distinctions between the backwoods of
>> apalachia and european aristocracy,
> What, you think they sound the same?
As a recent transplant to Appalachia, I have heard that some linguists
speculate that because of the region's cultural isolation, perhaps the
locals here do actually speak as they did (and as their ancestors in
England did) a few hundred years ago.
Regards,
Dan
--
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
Alan Kennedy
> Some of those sonorous slow talkers from the South, and majestic bass
> African-Americans like James Earl Jones or Morgan Freeman, have far
> more gravitas than any English accent can: to us, such people sound
> monumental.
On a related note, have you ever seen any of the original undubbed Star
Wars scenes with Darth Vader, with the original voice of the English
actor who played him, Dave Prowse (The Green Cross Man, for those who
remember ;-)
Problem was, Mr. Prowse has a pronounced West Country accent. Imagine
it: Darth Vader (in the voice of Farmer Giles): "You are a Rebel, and a
Traitor to the Empire". Hilarious :-D, and impossible to take seriously.
Thankfully they overdubbed it with James Earl Jones, "Born in
Mississippi, raised in Michigan", who produced one of the finest and
most memorable voice performances in modern cinema.
get-orff-moy-lahnd-ly y'rs
--
alan kennedy
------------------------------------------------------
email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan
Michael Hoffman
> Herb starts with H, not E. It isn't "ouse" or "ospital" or "istory". It
> isn't "erb" either. You just sound like tossers when you try to pronounce
> herb in the original French. And the same with homage.
Strangely enough there are Brits who pronounce "hotel" without an H at
the beginning. And even those who pronounce it with an H sometimes say
"an hotel" rather than "a hotel" because it used to be pronounced
starting with the vowel!
Similarly, the Brits should note that "idea" does not end in an "r" and
that "Eleanor" does.
--
Michael Hoffman
Tim Churches
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>
> speak? Are there certain words that sound particularly goofy? Please
> help us with your advice on this awkward matter.
To true Pythonistas, the only regional English accent which denotes
sophistication and high intelligence is the Dutch-English accent.
For those wishing to practice their faux-Dutch-English accent
(absolutely necessary if you are to be taken seriously at any
Python-related gathering, no matter where in the world it is held),
some examples to emulate can be found here (needs Quicktime):
http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/dutch0.html
and here:
http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail545.html
http://www.itconversations.com/shows/detail559.html
Tim C
Luis M. Gonzalez
> That depends on the accent. I believe that's probably true for
> the educated south of England, BBC, received pronunciation. I
> don't think that's true for some of the other dialects from
> northern areas (e.g. Liverpool) or the "cockney" accent.
What's exactly the "cockney" accent?
Is it related to some place or it's just a kind of slang?
I'm not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that it is common in
some parts of London, and that it is a sign of a particular social
class, more than a regionalism. Is that true?
Brian
Very well written... I enjoyed reading your post!
Brian
---
Grant Edwards
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> That depends on the accent. I believe that's probably true for
>> the educated south of England, BBC, received pronunciation. I
>> don't think that's true for some of the other dialects from
>> northern areas (e.g. Liverpool) or the "cockney" accent.
>
> What's exactly the "cockney" accent?
http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/CockneyEnglish.html
> Is it related to some place or it's just a kind of slang? I'm
> not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that it is common
> in some parts of London, and that it is a sign of a particular
> social class, more than a regionalism. Is that true?
I think it's both.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Uh-oh!! I forgot
at to submit to COMPULSORY
visi.com URINALYSIS!
Gafoor
> But don't worry, there is one thing we all agree on throughout the
> English-speaking world: you Americans don't speak English.
>
> There are a few things that you can do to help:
>
> Herb starts with H, not E. It isn't "ouse" or "ospital" or "istory".
> It isn't "erb" either. You just sound like tossers when you try to
> pronounce herb in the original French. And the same with homage.
>
> Taking of herbs, there is no BAY in basil. And oregano sounds like Ray
> Romano, not oh-reg-ano.
>
> And please, fillet of fish only has a silent T if you are speaking
> French.
'T' is always silent in the USA.
- Innernet
- Twenny
Simon Brunning
> What's exactly the "cockney" accent?
> Is it related to some place or it's just a kind of slang?
A cockney is a *real* Londoner, that is, someone born within the City
of London, a.k.a The Square Mile. More specifically, it's someone born
"within the sound of Bow Bells" - i.e. close to St Mary le Bow, London
- <http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=EC2V+6AU>. This is within the
theoretical sound of Bow Bells, you understand - there have been
frequent and lengthy periods during which Bow Bells have not been rung
at all. There are in fact no longer any hospitals with maternity units
within the sound of Bow Bells, so there will be vanishingly few
cockneys born in future.
Strangely enough, this makes *me* a cockney, though I've never lived
in the square mile, and my accent is pretty close to received. I do
*work* in the City, though!
The cockney accent used to be pretty distinct, but these days it's
pretty much merged into the "Estuary English" accent common throughout
the South East of England.
> I'm not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that it is common in
> some parts of London, and that it is a sign of a particular social
> class, more than a regionalism. Is that true?
Cockney was London's working class accent, pretty much, thought it was
frequently affected by members of the middle classes. Estuary English
has taken over its position as the working class accent these days,
but with a much wider regional distribution.
How off topic is this? Marvellous!
--
Cheers,
Simon B,
si...@brunningonline.net,
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/
Luis M. Gonzalez
Being myself an argentine with spanish as mother tongue and a very bad
English, it's hard foro me to tell the difference between accents. I can
hardly tell an Irish from an English...
But what I did tell is the broad range of different accents within London
when I visited the city in 2001.
Some people seemed to speak very clear to me, and others seemed to be
speaking german!
And as far as I know, all these people were british, not immigrants (and
very hard to find indeed...).
Cheers,
Luis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Brunning" <simon.b...@gmail.com>
To: "Luis M. Gonzalez" <lui...@gmail.com>
Cc: <pytho...@python.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: When someone from Britain speaks, Americans hear a "British
accent"...
On 29 Jun 2005 15:34:11 -0700, Luis M. Gonzalez <lui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's exactly the "cockney" accent?
> Is it related to some place or it's just a kind of slang?
A cockney is a *real* Londoner, that is, someone born within the City
of London, a.k.a The Square Mile. More specifically, it's someone born
"within the sound of Bow Bells" - i.e. close to St Mary le Bow, London
- <http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=EC2V+6AU>. This is within the
theoretical sound of Bow Bells, you understand - there have been
frequent and lengthy periods during which Bow Bells have not been rung
at all. There are in fact no longer any hospitals with maternity units
within the sound of Bow Bells, so there will be vanishingly few
cockneys born in future.
Strangely enough, this makes *me* a cockney, though I've never lived
in the square mile, and my accent is pretty close to received. I do
*work* in the City, though!
The cockney accent used to be pretty distinct, but these days it's
pretty much merged into the "Estuary English" accent common throughout
the South East of England.
> I'm not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that it is common in
> some parts of London, and that it is a sign of a particular social
> class, more than a regionalism. Is that true?
Cockney was London's working class accent, pretty much, thought it was
Graham Fawcett
> Speaking as an Australia, ...
> [snip]
> But don't worry, there is one thing we all agree on throughout the
> English-speaking world: you Americans don't speak English.
And lest you feel Steven's observation don't bear much weight, keep in
mind that he is speaking as an entire continent. ;-)
But, speaking as Antarctica, I must disagree. I don't think the Keepers
of the Canon of the English Language(tm) would hold up either your
Strine or our Canadian regional accents as examples of Real English
Pronunciation(tm). But that's the kind of thing that canon-keepers
obsess about, while the rest of us just get along and communicate with
one another. (By "us", I mean "us people", not "us continents" -- I
stopped speaking as Antarctica a few lines back.)
keep-your-stick-on-the-ice'ly yours,
Graham
Benji York
> keep-your-stick-on-the-ice'ly yours,
Is that a Red Green reference? Man, I didn't think this could get any
more off-topic. :)
python-needs-more-duct-tape'ly yours,
Benji
Grant Edwards
> Well, yes, it is kinda off topic, but very interesting...
> Being myself an argentine with spanish as mother tongue and a
> very bad English, it's hard foro me to tell the difference
> between accents. I can hardly tell an Irish from an English...
> But what I did tell is the broad range of different accents
> within London when I visited the city in 2001.
>
> Some people seemed to speak very clear to me, and others
> seemed to be speaking german!
I'm an American who grew up watching plenty of BBC, and I run
into afew native Londoners whom I have hard time understanding.
I don't ever remember having troubly understanding people
outside the city.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I KAISER ROLL?! What
at good is a Kaiser Roll
visi.com without a little COLE SLAW
on the SIDE?
Tom Anderson
> python-needs-more-duct-tape'ly yours,
You're in luck: Python 3000 will replace duck typing with duct taping.
tom
--
I know you wanna try and get away, but it's the hardest thing you'll ever know
Tom Anderson
> On 29 Jun 2005 15:34:11 -0700, Luis M. Gonzalez <lui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's exactly the "cockney" accent? Is it related to some place or
>> it's just a kind of slang?
>
> The cockney accent used to be pretty distinct, but these days it's
> pretty much merged into the "Estuary English" accent common throughout
> the South East of England.
I grew up in Colchester, in the heart of Essex, the homeland of Estuary
English; i was recently told by a couple of Spanish colleagues that i
sounded just another colleague who has a Cockney accent.
Although, in fact, my parents aren't Essexen, and i left the county seven
years ago, so my accent is weird hybrid of Estuary and RP, and the
colleague isn't a real Cockney - i think he's from east-north-eastern
London - but he does overcompensate pronounciation-wise, so i don't know
what it all means.
It's also complicated by the fact that Essex actually has two completely
different accents - the town accent, which is Estuary and is pretty much
derived from emigrants from East London, and the country accent, which is
indigenous, and very similar to the Suffolk and Norfolk accents. I grew up
in a village and went to school (and went drinking etc) in the nearby
town, so i was exposed to a different accents at different times of day!
>> I'm not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that it is common in
>> some parts of London, and that it is a sign of a particular social
>> class, more than a regionalism. Is that true?
>
> Cockney was London's working class accent, pretty much, thought it was
> frequently affected by members of the middle classes. Estuary English
> has taken over its position as the working class accent these days,
> but with a much wider regional distribution.
blimey guvnor you is well dahn on ar muvver tung, innit?
> How off topic is this? Marvellous!
Spike Milligan did an excellent sketch in the style of a TV
pop-anthropology documentary visiting the strange and primitive Cockanee
people of East London. It was part of one of his Q series; i'm not sure
which, but if it was Q5, then it would have had a direct impact on the
Monty Python team, since that series basically beat them to the punch with
the format they'd planned to use, forcing them to switch to the
stream-of-consciousness style that became their trademark and which is the
basis for python's indentation-based block structure. Therefore, if it
hadn't been for the quirks of the Cockney accent, we'd all be using curly
brackets and semicolons. FACT.
Tom Anderson
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Herb starts with H, not E. It isn't "ouse" or "ospital" or "istory". It
>> isn't "erb" either. You just sound like tossers when you try to
>> pronounce herb in the original French.
Yes, i find this insanely irritating.
>> And the same with homage.
>
> Strangely enough there are Brits who pronounce "hotel" without an H at
> the beginning. And even those who pronounce it with an H sometimes say
> "an hotel" rather than "a hotel" because it used to be pronounced
> starting with the vowel!
That's an interesting one. In most English accents, and i think in RP,
it's "a hotel"; dropping of the aitch and the accompanying shift to 'an',
as in "an 'otel" is a symptom of Estuary english. However, as you say,
there is some weird historical precedent for pronouncing the 'h' but also
using 'an', as in "an hotel", which is practiced only by the
self-consciously posh (including, often, newsreaders), and sounds
completely absurd.
> Similarly, the Brits should note that "idea" does not end in an "r" and that
> "Eleanor" does.
How about carrier?
Mark Lawrence
muldoon wrote:
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>
> Be blunt. We Americans need to know. Should we try to change the way we
> speak? Are there certain words that sound particularly goofy? Please
> help us with your advice on this awkward matter.
I believe that all Americans should learn at least one British accent,
so start with one in Welsh or Gaelic, once they've mastered this then
try English.
Kindest Regards.
Mark Lawrence.
p.s. this is why I love c.l.py.
George Sakkis
> if it hadn't been for the quirks of the Cockney accent, we'd all be using curly
> brackets and semicolons.
+1 QOTW
George
Bill
> Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full monty" or
> "trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn word they say. British talk
> sounds like gibberish to me for the most part.
Have you had your hearing checked recently? Seriously. I have a hearing
defect and speakers from the UK give me by far the most difficulty.
People speaking English as a second language are more understandable.
James Stroud
problems. I have difficulty recognizing speech of any kind with my right ear.
Amazing to think that this would be enhanced for British, but it would be
consistent with my experience, which seems similar to yours.
James
--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095
Terry Hancock
No silly, it's "duck typing", not duct taping!
--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com
Chan.F...@oracle.com
frui'
cricke'
or replaced with D in the US ..
budder
ledder
Stephen Kellett
Chan.F...@oracle.com writes
>T can be silent in England too ..
>
>frui'
>cricke'
Both of those words (fruit and cricket) have the letter T sounded.
Stephen (Nationality: English).
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Christos TZOTZIOY
<bria...@dslextreme.com> might have written:
> Now, what forum would you recommend? Any help would be appreciated.
alt.usage.english?
alt.languages.english?
alt.english.usage?
uk.culture.language.english?
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Dear Paul,
please stop spamming us."
The Corinthians
Christos TZOTZIOY
<tw...@urchin.earth.li> might have written:
>On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Benji York wrote:
>
>> python-needs-more-duct-tape'ly yours,
>
>You're in luck: Python 3000 will replace duck typing with duct taping.
I would bet that somewhere in the "Ingliy-spiking werld" both terms
sound exactly the same.
Darkfalz
> Americans consider having a "British accent" a sign of sophistication
> and high intelligence. Many companies hire salespersons from Britain to
> represent their products,etc. Question: When the British hear an
> "American accent," does it sound unsophisticated and dumb?
>
> Be blunt. We Americans need to know. Should we try to change the way we
> speak? Are there certain words that sound particularly goofy? Please
> help us with your advice on this awkward matter.
I find this amusing even when they have the most cockney, ghetto
English accent, Americans still find it "sophisticated".
And yes, seppos sound like dumb fucks to the entire rest of the world.
Grant Edwards
> I find this amusing even when they have the most cockney, ghetto
> English accent, Americans still find it "sophisticated".
No they don't. Americans have pretty much the same stereotypes
about regional English accents that the average Brit does.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Do you guys know we
at just passed thru a BLACK
visi.com HOLE in space?
Paul Boddie
> Some of those sonorous slow talkers from the South, and majestic bass
> African-Americans like James Earl Jones or Morgan Freeman, have far
> more gravitas than any English accent can: to us, such people sound
> monumental.
Yes, get James Earl Jones together with some people speaking in
(Standard) British English accents and the impression you get is
almost Imperial...
Paul
Richie Hindle
[Chan]
> T can be silent in England too ..
>
> frui'
> cricke'
[Stephen]
> Both of those words (fruit and cricket) have the letter T sounded.
>
> Stephen (Nationality: English).
Not necessarily - in my native accent they'd be replaced with glottal stops.
Richie (Nationality: West Yorkshire 8-)
(Having a daughter has improved my speech - I'm much more careful about
enunciating my words properly so that she doesn't pick up my bad habits.)
--
Richie Hindle
ric...@entrian.com
Nick Efford
> I'm an American who grew up watching plenty of BBC, and I run
> into afew native Londoners whom I have hard time understanding.
> I don't ever remember having troubly understanding people
> outside the city.
But have you encountered regional dialects? - e.g. from the north
of the country, where you get both a strong accent, very different
from London speech, and the use of different words.
For example, folk in parts of the north-east will say "canny"
instead of "careful", "gannin" instead of "going", "bonny lass"
instead of "pretty girl". The question "Do you know what I mean?"
expressed phonetically in Geordie (one of the north-eastern dialects)
becomes "Ya knaa what ah mean, leik?"
Nick
DaveM
wrote:
>Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full monty" or
>"trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn word they say. British talk
>sounds like gibberish to me for the most part.
Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that British voices
(outside of the movies) are often subtitled, while first-generation
Americans whose English is. um, limited, are not.
Try pretending the British accents are from naturalised US citizens. That
should do the trick.
DaveM
Grant Edwards
>>Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full
>>monty" or "trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn
>>word they say. British talk sounds like gibberish to me for the
>>most part.
>
> Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that
> British voices (outside of the movies) are often subtitled,
> while first-generation Americans whose English is. um,
> limited, are not.
What?!? I've never seen a British voice (inside or outside of
the movies) subtitled -- with the exception of one of a
nightclub scenes in one movie (I think it was Trainspotting)
where the dialog was inaudible because of the music.
While we're off this topic again topic, I was watching a BBC
series "Space Race" the other night. The British actors did a
passable job with the American accents in the scenes at Fort
Bliss in Texas, but the writers wrote British English lines for
them to speak in their American accents.
For example: In British English one uses a plural verb when the
subject consists of more than one person. Sports teams,
government departments, states, corporations etc. are
grammatically plural. In American, the verb agrees with the
word that is the subject, not how many people are denoted by
that word.
In sports (thats "sport" for you Brits):
American: Minnesota is behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
British: Minnesota are behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
In politics:
American: The war department has decided to cancel the program.
British: The war department have decided to cancel the program.
And so on...
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! I think I am an
at overnight sensation right
visi.com now!!
Mike Meyer
> On 2005-10-06, DaveM <asm...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>>Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full
>>>monty" or "trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn
>>>word they say. British talk sounds like gibberish to me for the
>>>most part.
>> Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that
>> British voices (outside of the movies) are often subtitled,
>> while first-generation Americans whose English is. um,
>> limited, are not.
> What?!? I've never seen a British voice (inside or outside of
> the movies) subtitled -- with the exception of one of a
> nightclub scenes in one movie (I think it was Trainspotting)
> where the dialog was inaudible because of the music.
Maybe they were dubbed? I know America International dubbed the first
version of "Mad Max" that they imported into the US. Then again,
American International is well-know for their quality.
<mike
--
Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
Grant Edwards
>>> Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that
>>> British voices (outside of the movies) are often subtitled,
>>> while first-generation Americans whose English is. um,
>>> limited, are not.
>>
>> What?!? I've never seen a British voice (inside or outside of
>> the movies) subtitled -- with the exception of one of a
>> nightclub scenes in one movie (I think it was Trainspotting)
>> where the dialog was inaudible because of the music.
>
> Maybe they were dubbed?
I don't think so. Where exactly did you see all these
sub-titled British TV/movies?
In all the British movies and TV shows I've seen in the US, the
British actors sound the same as the do on British TV. I don't
recall ever going to a theater in England, but I've seen plenty
of TV in England. To me the dialog sounds the same as it does
in the US.
> I know America International dubbed the first version of "Mad
> Max" that they imported into the US. Then again, American
> International is well-know for their quality.
That could be.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! LIFE is a
at never-ending INFORMERCIAL!
visi.com
Rick Wotnaz
news:867jcqo...@bhuda.mired.org:
> Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com> writes:
>> On 2005-10-06, DaveM <asm...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>>>>Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full
>>>>monty" or "trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn
>>>>word they say. British talk sounds like gibberish to me for
>>>>the most part.
>>> Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that
>>> British voices (outside of the movies) are often subtitled,
>>> while first-generation Americans whose English is. um,
>>> limited, are not.
>> What?!? I've never seen a British voice (inside or outside of
>> the movies) subtitled -- with the exception of one of a
>> nightclub scenes in one movie (I think it was Trainspotting)
>> where the dialog was inaudible because of the music.
>
> Maybe they were dubbed? I know America International dubbed the
> first version of "Mad Max" that they imported into the US. Then
> again, American International is well-know for their quality.
A couple of nights ago, I was amused and amazed to see subtitles
during NBC news interviews with some good citizens of Louisiana. I
don't know what NBC was thinking. I didn't think the accents were
especially thick, either. I had no difficulty understanding the
spoken words except in one stretch where background noise obscured
some bits. I've certainly heard some New Yorkers with harder-to-
understand speech, though without subtitles. I suppose I could be
fooling myself in thinking I understood them.
--
rzed
Neil Hodgson
> Where exactly did you see all these
> sub-titled British TV/movies?
I've noticed this too when travelling but can't recall precise
details. Perhaps it is on the international versions of American
channels such as CNN which are commonly watched by people with less
English and hence less ability to handle accents.
Neil
DaveM
>On 2005-10-06, DaveM <asm...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>>Frankly, I can't watch Shakespeare or movies like "the full
>>>monty" or "trainspotting" because I can't understand a damn
>>>word they say. British talk sounds like gibberish to me for the
>>>most part.
>>
>> Not just you. It always amuses me in trips to the US that
>> British voices (outside of the movies) are often subtitled,
>> while first-generation Americans whose English is. um,
>> limited, are not.
>
>What?!? I've never seen a British voice (inside or outside of
>the movies) subtitled -- with the exception of one of a
>nightclub scenes in one movie (I think it was Trainspotting)
>where the dialog was inaudible because of the music.
I noticed this watching news footage rather than imported shows. I haven't
seen 'Trainspotting', but I have seen Scottish accents subtitled
(unnecessarily) on English TV, to understandable anger across the border -
so this isn't uniquely a US phenomenon, to be fair.
<snip>
>For example: In British English one uses a plural verb when the
>subject consists of more than one person. Sports teams,
>government departments, states, corporations etc. are
>grammatically plural. In American, the verb agrees with the
>word that is the subject, not how many people are denoted by
>that word.
>
>In sports (thats "sport" for you Brits):
Yes.
> American: Minnesota is behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
> British: Minnesota are behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
True.
>In politics:
> American: The war department has decided to cancel the program.
> British: The war department have decided to cancel the program.
Not sure about this one. They may be used interchangeably as neither strikes
me as sounding "odd".
DaveM
Steve Holden
>
>>For example: In British English one uses a plural verb when the
>>subject consists of more than one person. Sports teams,
>>government departments, states, corporations etc. are
>>grammatically plural. In American, the verb agrees with the
>>word that is the subject, not how many people are denoted by
>>that word.
>>
>>In sports (thats "sport" for you Brits):
>
savings of 20%", which usage is common in America?
There aren't any universal rules, except possibly "British people speak
English while Americans don't". Nowadays relatively few people on either
side of the Atlantic even know the difference between a collective noun
and a plural, so there's little hope of them being able to correctly
apply any rule there might be (and yes, I split that infinitive just to
annoy any pedants who may be reading).
>
> Yes.
>
>
>>American: Minnesota is behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
>> British: Minnesota are behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
>
>
> True.
>
>
>>In politics:
>
>
>> American: The war department has decided to cancel the program.
>> British: The war department have decided to cancel the program.
>
>
> Not sure about this one. They may be used interchangeably as neither strikes
> me as sounding "odd".
>
Then again, there's room for infinite disagreement about these topics. I
mentioned a while ago that I disliked the English on a bumper sticker I
liked, which read
"Some village in Texas is missing their idiot".
Several people defended this, saying that a village could use the plural
possessive "their". I personally found it odd (and essentially
non-grammatical) not because either the singular or plural forms should
be mandated but because this one manages to mix them up. So
"Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
would be better (though it sounds like the kind of thing only the idiot
alluded to would say), while my preferred choice would be
"Some village in Texas is missing its idiot".
Then again, what can you expect from a country whose leader pronounces
"nuclear" as though it were spelled "nucular"? I suppose it's only a
matter of time before they change the spelling just like they did with
"aluminium".
tongue-in-cheek-ly y'rs - steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
Steven D'Aprano
> and yes, I split that infinitive just to
> annoy any pedants who may be reading
*Real* pedants will know that English is not Latin, does not follow the
grammatical rules of Latin, and that just because split infinitives are
impossible -- not forbidden, impossible -- in Latin is no reason to forbid
them in English.
The linguist Steven Pinker calls the sort of people who claim split
infinitives are bad English "language mavens", and he doesn't mean it as
a compliment. See, for example, chapter 12 in his book "The Language
Instinct".
[snip]
> "Some village in Texas is missing their idiot".
>
> Several people defended this, saying that a village could use the plural
> possessive "their".
"Several people" being the idiots missed by the villages? :-)
> I personally found it odd (and essentially
> non-grammatical) not because either the singular or plural forms should
> be mandated but because this one manages to mix them up. So
>
> "Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
>
> would be better (though it sounds like the kind of thing only the idiot
> alluded to would say),
Absolutely. "Some villages" would work, but not village singular.
> while my preferred choice would be
>
> "Some village in Texas is missing its idiot".
Yes, that's the puppy.
I think where the people are getting confused is that it is (arguably)
acceptable to use "their" in place of "his or her", as in:
"Should the purchaser lose their warranty card..."
Some of the more conservative grammarians argue against that construction,
many accept it in informal speech or writing but not formal, and a few
(like myself!) argue that it is time to get with the 21st century and just
accept it even in formal language. If it was good enough for Willie
Shakespeare, it is good enough for me.
--
Steven.
Richie Hindle
[Steve]
> and yes, I split that infinitive just to
> annoy any pedants who may be reading
[Steven]
> *Real* pedants will know that English is not Latin, does not follow the
> grammatical rules of Latin, and that just because split infinitives are
> impossible -- not forbidden, impossible -- in Latin is no reason to forbid
> them in English.
Your previous post to this thread was chock-full of split nominatives: "The
Hollywood voice", "the specific regional accent", "the English-speaking
world", "the original French". And you call yourself a grammarian.
--
Richie Hindle
ric...@entrian.com
Steve Holden
> [Steve]
>
>>and yes, I split that infinitive just to
>>annoy any pedants who may be reading
>
>
>
>>*Real* pedants will know that English is not Latin, does not follow the
>>grammatical rules of Latin, and that just because split infinitives are
>>impossible -- not forbidden, impossible -- in Latin is no reason to forbid
>>them in English.
>
>
> Hollywood voice", "the specific regional accent", "the English-speaking
> world", "the original French". And you call yourself a grammarian.
>
you force us to make up our own minds.
Or is "the green tomato" also unacceptable?
regards
Steve
Richie Hindle
[Richie]
> Your previous post to this thread was chock-full of split nominatives: "The
> Hollywood voice", "the specific regional accent", "the English-speaking
> world", "the original French". And you call yourself a grammarian.
[Steve]
> I am presuming this post was meant to be a joke?
It was.
> No smileys, though, so you force us to make up our own minds.
Yes. 8-)
> Or is "the green tomato" also unacceptable?
It ought to be considered unacceptable by people who think that "to
correctly apply" is unacceptable, which is the point that Stephen was
making:
> *Real* pedants will know that English is not Latin, does not follow the
> grammatical rules of Latin, and that just because split infinitives are
> impossible -- not forbidden, impossible -- in Latin is no reason to forbid
> them in English.
Split nominatives like "the green tomato" are also impossible in Latin, but
no-one seems to object to their use in English.
--
Richie Hindle
ric...@entrian.com
Rocco Moretti
>> On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:33:43 -0000, Grant Edwards <gra...@visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>> For example: In British English one uses a plural verb when the
>>> subject consists of more than one person. Sports teams,
>>> government departments, states, corporations etc. are grammatically
>>> plural. In American, the verb agrees with the
>>> word that is the subject, not how many people are denoted by
>>> that word.
>
> There aren't any universal rules, except possibly "British people speak
> English while Americans don't".
I believe you overgeneralize. :)
A Welshman would likely be offended if you implied he spoke English, and
the Scots are notorious for only speaking English when they have too. (I
remember a news story some years back about a Scottish "lad" who was
fined/imprisoned for replying to an official court representative with
"Aye" rather than "Yes".) For that matter there are plenty of people in
Cornwall and even in London (Cockney) who speak something that is only
called "English" for lack of a better term.
Grant Edwards
>>For example: In British English one uses a plural verb when the
>>subject consists of more than one person. Sports teams,
>>government departments, states, corporations etc. are
>>grammatically plural. In American, the verb agrees with the
>>word that is the subject, not how many people are denoted by
>>that word.
>>
>>In sports (thats "sport" for you Brits):
>
> Yes.
>
>> American: Minnesota is behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
>> British: Minnesota are behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
>
> True.
>
>>In politics:
>
>> American: The war department has decided to cancel the program.
>> British: The war department have decided to cancel the program.
>
> Not sure about this one. They may be used interchangeably as neither strikes
> me as sounding "odd".
It could be that both are used in British English and I only
notice the "have" usage. In US English it's always "has"
because "deptartment" is considered singular:
"departement has" and "departements have"
For some reason I find this sort of thing fascinating enough to
have download the entire "story of English" series off Usenet...
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! Now we can
at become alcoholics!
visi.com
Grant Edwards
>>>In sports (thats "sport" for you Brits):
>>
> OK, so how do you account for the execresence "That will give you a
> savings of 20%", which usage is common in America?
Dunno. Like much else in English (both American and British)
"that's just the way it is".
> Then again, there's room for infinite disagreement about these
> topics.
Which makes it an ideal Usenet thread. :)
> I mentioned a while ago that I disliked the English on a
> bumper sticker I liked, which read
>
> "Some village in Texas is missing their idiot".
That would definitely be "is" and "its" in the US.
> Several people defended this, saying that a village could use
> the plural possessive "their". I personally found it odd (and
> essentially non-grammatical) not because either the singular
> or plural forms should be mandated but because this one
> manages to mix them up. So
>
> "Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
At least that one is consistent, though it sounds "wrong" to US
ears.
> would be better (though it sounds like the kind of thing only
> the idiot alluded to would say), while my preferred choice
> would be
>
> "Some village in Texas is missing its idiot".
>
> Then again, what can you expect from a country whose leader
> pronounces "nuclear" as though it were spelled "nucular"?
Don't get me started on _that_ one. I found it particularly
horrifying that Jimmy Carter pronounced it "nucular" -- he had
studied nuclear engineering at the naval acadamy, and should at
least be able pronounce the word.
> I suppose it's only a matter of time before they change the
> spelling just like they did with "aluminium".
:)
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Oh my GOD -- the
at SUN just fell into YANKEE
visi.com STADIUM!!
Steve Holden
>>Then again, what can you expect from a country whose leader
>>pronounces "nuclear" as though it were spelled "nucular"?
>
>
> Don't get me started on _that_ one. I found it particularly
> horrifying that Jimmy Carter pronounced it "nucular" -- he had
> studied nuclear engineering at the naval acadamy, and should at
> least be able pronounce the word.
>
>
>>I suppose it's only a matter of time before they change the
>>spelling just like they did with "aluminium".
>
>
> :)
>
rather than the nuclear ones.
regards
Steve
Dave Hansen
wrote:
>On 2005-10-07, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
[...]
>>
>> "Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
>
>At least that one is consistent, though it sounds "wrong" to US
>ears.
The Germans have a word for it (sounds "wrong"): Sprachgefuhl,
literally a feeling for the language.
[...]
>
>Don't get me started on _that_ one. I found it particularly
>horrifying that Jimmy Carter pronounced it "nucular" -- he had
>studied nuclear engineering at the naval acadamy, and should at
>least be able pronounce the word.
"I was talking to my daughter, Amy, last night..."
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
Terry Hancock
> OK, so how do you account for the execresence "That will give you a
> savings of 20%", which usage is common in America?
In America, anyway, "savings" is a collective abstract noun
(like "physics" or "mechanics"), there's no such
noun as "saving" (that's present participle of "to save"
only). How did you expect that sentence to be rendered?
Why is it an "execresence"?
By the way, dict.org doesn't think "execresence" is a word,
although I interpret the neologism as meaning something like
"execrable utterance":
dict.org said:
> No definitions found for 'execresence'!
Cheers,
Terry
--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com
Duncan Smith
So English is spoken only in the South East of England, except London?
I think you should also disbar the queen (unless she's already
classified as a Londoner), due to her apparent confusion between the 1st
person singular and 1st person plural :-).
Duncan
Fredrik Lundh
> By the way, dict.org doesn't think "execresence" is a word,
> although I interpret the neologism as meaning something like
> "execrable utterance":
>
> dict.org said:
> > No definitions found for 'execresence'!
however, 'excrescence' appears to be a perfectly cromulent word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2004/08/22.html
http://www.wordsmith.org/words/excrescence.html
maybe dict.org just needs to work on their "did you mean" algorithm?
</F>
Steve Holden
> On Friday 07 October 2005 03:01 am, Steve Holden wrote:
>
>>OK, so how do you account for the execresence "That will give you a
>>savings of 20%", which usage is common in America?
>
>
> In America, anyway, "savings" is a collective abstract noun
> (like "physics" or "mechanics"), there's no such
> noun as "saving" (that's present participle of "to save"
> only). How did you expect that sentence to be rendered?
> Why is it an "execresence"?
>
gumball for $80 I have achieved a saving of 20%.
> By the way, dict.org doesn't think "execresence" is a word,
> although I interpret the neologism as meaning something like
> "execrable utterance":
>
> dict.org said:
>
>>No definitions found for 'execresence'!
>
>
Nonetheless, Google finds 369 hits for "execrescence" and 67 for
"execresence".
My Complete Oxford is still packed in a cardboard box, so I can't offer
any more convincing evidence.
If there isn't such a word, all I can say is there *ought* to be :-)
Terry Hancock
>
> [snip]
> > "Some village in Texas is missing their idiot".
> >
> > I personally found it odd (and essentially
> > non-grammatical) not because either the singular or plural forms should
> > be mandated but because this one manages to mix them up. So
> >
> > "Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
> >
> > "Some village in Texas is missing its idiot".
>
> Yes, that's the puppy.
>
> I think where the people are getting confused is that it is (arguably)
> acceptable to use "their" in place of "his or her", as in:
In a Texas dialect, "their" is construed to mean "singular third person
of indeterminate gender". It's considered rude to use "it" to apply to
a sentient, and "his or her" is "PC" (and therefore a great sin ;-) ).
What's going on up above, is that "village" is being construed as
singular, but also sentient, since it's a group of people.
This is a simplification, since the actual grammar fluctuates -- I think
this is in the process of happening as the language evolves. Self-conscious
Texans simply try to avoid using constructs with an indeterminate third
person singular, substituting plurals wherever possible. So it's not
very consistent -- and quite a few of us attempt to assimilate our
speech to what we think is "Standard American English".
But you *will* occasionally hear pronouns here which do not occur in
"proper" English, such as "theirself" -- which shows what's going on
in the speaker's mind. They know the subject is singular, it's just
that you didn't realize that "their" could *be* singular. :-)
You also see there, the tendency to normalize reflexive pronouns to
the possessive + self form:
myself ourselves
yourself y'all's selves
hisself theirselves
herself
theirself
itself
Whereas so-called "proper" English is inconsistent (read "broken"):
myself ourselves
yourself yourselves
himself themselves
herself
his or her self
itself
The same thing happened to "you", of course, ages ago, which is why
we almost never use the ONE TRUE singular 2nd person, which is "thou".
In fact, hardly anyone remembers the correct thou conjugations of verbs
anymore. Or even that it *is* singular. I read an really annoying
book once which kept trying to say things like "thou are" -- if
you're going to use "thou", at least conjugate correctly!
It's "thou art".
Of course, just to keep y'all on your toes, we Texans have not only
construed "their" to singular, but also "you", and added a new
plural "y'all". As in "Why can't y'all get y'all's selves together
and understand that how a person talks is their own business."
"Innit?"
Terry Hancock
> >Don't get me started on _that_ one. I found it particularly
> >horrifying that Jimmy Carter pronounced it "nucular" -- he had
> >studied nuclear engineering at the naval acadamy, and should at
> >least be able pronounce the word.
Well, there's your problem. He learned from engineers. Engineers
can't speak English. I was instructed in my "Engineering Statics"
class that a three-dimensional structure connecting non-coplanar
points in space was called a "tetrahedragon".
I am not kidding. This actually happened.
Grant Edwards
> Of course, just to keep y'all on your toes, we Texans have not only
> construed "their" to singular, but also "you", and added a new
> plural "y'all".
AFAICT, in many parts of "The South", y'all is now used in the
singular (e.g. "y'all" is used when addressing a single
person), and "all y'all" is the plural form used when
addressing a group of people collectively.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! If elected, Zippy
at pledges to each and every
visi.com American a 55-year-old
houseboy...
Grant Edwards
> Well, there's your problem. He learned from engineers. Engineers
> can't speak English. I was instructed in my "Engineering Statics"
> class that a three-dimensional structure connecting non-coplanar
> points in space was called a "tetrahedragon".
Watch out for the fire-breathing kind. They're especially
dangerous since they have multiple faces, so there's no
"behind" from which to sneak up upon them from... of... to.....
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! Nipples, dimples,
at knuckles, NICKLES,
visi.com wrinkles, pimples!!
Dave Hansen
wrote:
>Terry Hancock wrote:
>> On Friday 07 October 2005 03:01 am, Steve Holden wrote:
>>
>>>OK, so how do you account for the execresence "That will give you a
>>>savings of 20%", which usage is common in America?
>>
>>
>> In America, anyway, "savings" is a collective abstract noun
>> (like "physics" or "mechanics"), there's no such
>> noun as "saving" (that's present participle of "to save"
>> only). How did you expect that sentence to be rendered?
>> Why is it an "execresence"?
>>
>Precisely because there *is* such a thing as a saving. If I buy a $100
>gumball for $80 I have achieved a saving of 20%.
FWIW, my dictionary has a usage note:
/Savings/ (plural noun) is not preceded by the singular /a/, except
loosely:"The price represents a savings (properly /saving/) of ten
dollars." In the foregoing, considered as an example in writing,
/savings/ is unacceptable to 89 per cent the Usage Panel.
(Words enclosed in /slashes/ represent italics.)
The dictionary? "The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language, New College Edition."
Still sounds wrong to me, though.
Dave Hansen
<han...@anansispaceworks.com> wrote:
>On Friday 07 October 2005 01:31 pm, Dave Hansen wrote:
Actually, I didn't, though I did respond to it. Please watch your
attributions.
Thanks,
Terry Hancock
> Precisely because there *is* such a thing as a saving. If I buy a $100
> gumball for $80 I have achieved a saving of 20%.
Nope, that's incorrect American. ;-)
You can say "I bought a $100 gumball for $80, saving 20%," or
"If I buy a $100 gumball for $80, I have achieved a savings of 20%."
(Although, you lose points for style with "achieved", and those
are awfully expensive gumballs). ;-)
Jack Diederich
> On 2005-10-07, Terry Hancock <han...@anansispaceworks.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, just to keep y'all on your toes, we Texans have not only
> > construed "their" to singular, but also "you", and added a new
> > plural "y'all".
>
> AFAICT, in many parts of "The South", y'all is now used in the
> singular (e.g. "y'all" is used when addressing a single
> person), and "all y'all" is the plural form used when
> addressing a group of people collectively.
>
http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_50.html
A map from a US dialect survey. Click around for many more questions.
The question was a bit broken, it did not list "all y'all" and its
most glaring omission was "yous guys" The Philly responders selected
the next best option of "yous"
It is a bit odd that You'uns, yins, and yous are confined to Pennsylvania
and very distinct east-west regions inside PA at that (Pittsburgh vs
Philly orbits).
-jack
Terry Hancock
> On 2005-10-07, Terry Hancock <han...@anansispaceworks.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, there's your problem. He learned from engineers. Engineers
> > can't speak English. I was instructed in my "Engineering Statics"
> > class that a three-dimensional structure connecting non-coplanar
> > points in space was called a "tetrahedragon".
[typo: the word "four" is missing above in the definition]
> Watch out for the fire-breathing kind. They're especially
> dangerous since they have multiple faces, so there's no
> "behind" from which to sneak up upon them from... of... to.....
Well, yeah, although the correct pronunciation is apparently
"te-tra-HEE-dra-GON".
(Wishing I had figured out how to type IPA symbols so you could
fully appreciate that ;-) ).
It was very distracting, though, subvocalizing "tetrahedron" constantly
during this guy's lectures. I suppose that might've contributed
to my poor grade in this class (I left engineering altogether very
shortly thereafter).
Grant Edwards
> "What word(s) do you use to address a group of two or more people?"
> http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_50.html
> A map from a US dialect survey. Click around for many more questions.
Cool. While we're on the topic, has anybody else noticed that
"guys" is acceptible and commonly used to refer to a group of
women, but the singular "guy" is never used to refer to a
single woman (and most of the women I've asked think that "gal"
or "gals" is insulting). Likewise, "dude" is often used when
addressing a female but almost never when speaking about one in
the third person.
> The question was a bit broken, it did not list "all y'all" and its
> most glaring omission was "yous guys" The Philly responders selected
> the next best option of "yous"
>
> It is a bit odd that You'uns, yins, and yous are confined to Pennsylvania
> and very distinct east-west regions inside PA at that (Pittsburgh vs
> Philly orbits).
Eastern and Western Pennsylvania are practically different
countries when it comes to language and culture.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! ... The waitress's
at UNIFORM sheds TARTAR SAUCE
visi.com like an 8" by 10" GLOSSY...
Jack Diederich
I'll buy that, I'm from Eastern PA (half PA Dutch) and I've only been
to Pittsburgh once. There is a very good reason for this, the six hour
drive is the same as from Philly to Boston (through NJ, NY, CT and into
MA). Alternatively you can drive from Philly to DC to Philly or
Philly to New York to Philly to New York in the same amount of time.
-jack
Luis M. Gonzalez
Grant Edwards ha escrito:
> While we're off this topic again topic, I was watching a BBC
> series "Space Race" the other night. The British actors did a
> passable job with the American accents in the scenes at Fort
> Bliss in Texas, but the writers wrote British English lines for
> them to speak in their American accents...
Continuing with this off-topic thread about british accent and
movies...
I've always asked myself why do Hollywood movies about the Roman Empire
show the Emperors and all the nobles speaking with british accent?
They were italians for God's sake!
Anyway, I can't imagine Julius Caesar speaking like Vito Corleone...
mensa...@aol.com
Of course not! Vito Corleone was Sicilian.
Steven D'Aprano
> Continuing with this off-topic thread about british accent and
> movies...
> I've always asked myself why do Hollywood movies about the Roman Empire
> show the Emperors and all the nobles speaking with british accent?
> They were italians for God's sake!
You would rather they speak in an Italian accent?
> Anyway, I can't imagine Julius Caesar speaking like Vito Corleone...
:-)
The BBC adaptation of "I, Claudius" had all the upper-class Romans
speaking in posh English accents (think of Queen Victoria), and the
servants, soldiers, slaves etc speaking in Cockney and other working-class
accents.
This, by the way, is closer to the historical truth than many people
imagine. The Latin we learnt in school was so-called "Classical Latin".
Your average Roman centurion spoke something that was to Classical Latin
as your boyz in the hood speaks to standard American English.
In the recent movie "Alexander the Great", which was nowhere near as bad
as the reputation it got (okay, it wasn't that good, but neither was it
bad), they did a similar thing. The Greeks spoke in very polished
English accents, while the Macedonians (who by their own admission had
been goat herders only to generations before) spoke in broad
Irish/Scottish accents, and the lower class they were, the thicker the
accent.
--
Steven.
Steve Holden
> On Friday 07 October 2005 03:44 pm, Steve Holden wrote:
>
>>Precisely because there *is* such a thing as a saving. If I buy a $100
>>gumball for $80 I have achieved a saving of 20%.
>
>
> Nope, that's incorrect American. ;-)
>
> You can say "I bought a $100 gumball for $80, saving 20%," or
> "If I buy a $100 gumball for $80, I have achieved a savings of 20%."
>
> (Although, you lose points for style with "achieved", and those
> are awfully expensive gumballs). ;-)
>
embiggening prices.
Steve Holden
> Rocco Moretti wrote:
[...]
>
> So English is spoken only in the South East of England, except London?
> I think you should also disbar the queen (unless she's already
> classified as a Londoner), due to her apparent confusion between the 1st
> person singular and 1st person plural :-).
>
themselves in the first person plural.
Oscar Wilde understood this. When he boasted that he could speak
extempore for a minute on any subject of a challenger's choosing someone
shouted "The Queen", to which he replied "The Queen, sir, is not a subject".
Michael
...
> Or is "the green tomato" also unacceptable?
>
Of course it is. We all know* it should be "the green fried tomato", or "the
killer tomato".
:-)
(is it me, or is the subject line for this thread silly? After all, what
accent would you expect from someone in the UK? However, that said, the
concept of a *single* British accent is a silly as the idea. Sillier even
than the suggestion that the two lines below are British vs American:
> American: Minnesota is behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
> British: Minnesota are behind 7-0. The Vikings are behind 7-0.
Or even these lines:
> American: The war department has decided to cancel the program.
> British: The war department have decided to cancel the program.
A better one might be:
> British: "They installed tunnelling for the petrol pipes made of grey
> coloured aluminium."
> American: "They installed tunneling for the gas pipes made of gray
> colored aluminum."
(I think :-) I do my best with grammar, but can fail spectactularly, more
often than I'd like :)
Bad grammar flies at the same speed as the pedants who decide that the way
that other people talk is wrong. If the majority of people use a language
one way, and a small number of people say "you're wrong", who's right?
Is it the people who speak the language in a shared way that they all
understand, or the people who are setting rules based on how people *used*
to speak and *used* to define words? (NB, I *did* say majority above ;-)
Does /human/ language _require_ backwards compatibility?
;-)
Michael.
Michael
>
> Well, yeah, although the correct pronunciation is apparently
> "te-tra-HEE-dra-GON".
>
As opposed to a "te-tra-SHE-dra-GON" ?
;-)
Michael.
Steve Horsley
> Then again, there's room for infinite disagreement about these topics. I
> mentioned a while ago that I disliked the English on a bumper sticker I
> liked, which read
>
> "Some village in Texas is missing their idiot".
>
> possessive "their". I personally found it odd (and essentially
> be mandated but because this one manages to mix them up. So
>
> "Some village in Texas are missing their idiot"
>
> alluded to would say), while my preferred choice would be
>
> "Some village in Texas is missing its idiot".
>
Strangely, the one that scans most naturally to me is the first
one. Maybe its because the sentence starts by talking of a
village in Texas singular point on a map, but the idiot in the
second half is one of many inhabitants who have noticed his
absence. Yes, it is mixing singular and plural from a syntactic
point of view, but not so badly after interepretation into mental
images.
The one that always makes me grit my teeth is "You have got to,
don't you?". Well no, I do NOT got to, actually. Shudder!
Steve, Brung up in norf London.