Congressional Actions threatens programmer pay rates encore

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Walker Rowe

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
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Do you want to write code for $15 per hour? That might be your future if
you do not lobby Congress regarding yet another expansion of the H1B visa
law. As you know last year Congress increased the number of H1B visas so
that 135,000 foreign computer programmers could come to the United States.
In previous years that program was limited to 65,000 people. But the
135,000 programmer cap was reached in the first five months of this year, so
Silicon Valley is clamoring for more.

The market is good now and you are making lots of money. But what will you
do when we have another recession? And how will you find a job make if your
résumé is buried under and avalanche of Indian, Chinese, Filipino, and
European curriculum vitae.

It stymies the mind why even liberal, pro-labor members of Congress, like
Senator Barbara McCulsky, would embrace this threat to our livelihoods. To
understand these sentiments you have to consider that the next presidential
election looms over the horizon. Democrats and Republicans alike are
clamoring for the attention and campaign contributions of Microsoft,
PriceWaterhouseCoopers, Lucent Technologies and other huge importers of
expatriate talent. Congress will do whatever Silicon Valley wants because
their support is crucial to control of Capitol Hill and the loss or
retention of the White House.

So our efforts to influence this debate are made heavy stacked up against
big moneyed computer firms who want to hire cheap offshore labor. But if
you and your friends write to your representative perhaps we can make change
some opinions. Please forward this e-mail to all of your peers and post it
in C++, Oracle, UNIX, Peoplesoft, and all the usenets and listserv Internet
sites that you can find.

The last time I wrote about this pocket money issue, hundreds of smug
Europeans and contract programming Asians flamed me with hate mail. They
accused me of Pat Buchanan style protectionism or, worse, racism. That
indeed is an ugly slur. So let me counter the forthcoming wave of animosity
with some well-reasoned words of my own.

To my European friends I would say why don't you improve your own economy
and quit doffing off ours? :"On the dole", isn't that what you Brits say?
To the French and Germans I say why protect your farmers with subsidized
crops. Your European and French parliaments are dominated by Socialists.
Your 17% VAT tax stymies free enterprise and hinders entrepreneurs. Quit
taxing your citizens so heavily. Give your employers the right to fire
workers and allow your businesses to award stock options. Then you won't
have to suffer 20% unemployment in Spain. What happened to the
freedom-loving ideas of the French revolution? In 1789 the words "liberté,
egalité, fraternité" meant freedom from the clutches of bureaucracy. Bring
back Voltaire and Robespierre and toss out Jacque Delors.

But as we all know Europeans are only the most vocal lot of high tech
immigrants. By far the biggest abusers of our generous immigration laws
wish to attract little attention and tend to remain mum. These are the
Indians. Fully 42% of H1B visa go to overseas Indians. Why don't you
Indians practice a little capitalism in Delhi and Bombay and rid your
economy of socialist law? I don't dislike you personally-I have many Indian
friends and enjoy reading V.S. Naipal and Salman Rushdie. And "Karma Sutra"
was a hell of a movie. But when you flock here by the millions I must
protest.

To help frame this debate, the American reader of this letter needs some
historical perspective of India and the Indian diaspora. During the 1970
while the United States fought a proxy war with the Russians in Afghanistan
Indian was a Soviet ally. The Indian economy was and in many ways today
remains officially socialist. Coca-Cola could not even sell their products
there. You could buy a Coke in Katmandu but in India they had to slap a
non-American label on their product lest they offend the local soda pop
bottler. And now Indian threatens world peace with their reckless
experiments with nuclear weapons. No doubt their scientists garnered the
know how to build these bombs from American universities.

East African and Fiji Island have log been overrun by Indians. Kenya was so
thoroughly disgusted by their presence that they kicked out the entire
Indian population in the 1970s. The president did not like that the thrifty
Indians lived their lives completely apart from Kenyan culture. The money
that they made they sent back home. Their young men flew home to Indian to
find a bride. If you want to read about this episode in history read the
Indian writer Srinivas Naipal's "North of South: An African Journey".

Indians come to the U.S. to find work and enjoy our democracy. Their
country claims to be the largest democracy on earth. But the way they treat
each other is hardly democratic. Indian culture is divided into castes-the
untouchables are at the bottom and the brahmins at the top. People of one
caste do not marry or mingle with members of another caste. In Indian most
marriages are arranged and accompanied by a dowry. In some cases, if the
dowry paid in gold is not enough to please the husband then the bride is
tossed onto a pire and burned to her death.

If you want to know what the English thought of the Indians during the
British Raj then you should read George Orwell's "Burmese Days". (Burma is
not actually Indian but these people are Indians. I forget if Burma was
once called East India but Pakistan was West India until 1970.) During the
British Raj the Indians were not allowed to join the English clubs. They
lived under a system of apartheid and were frequently referred to using the
n-word. Horrible I know, but that is their history.

So to you European and Indian programmers I say stay over their and brighten
up your own economy by embracing the ideas of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald
Reagan style capitalism. They did it in Hong Kong. They did it in
Singapore. If you create some jobs over there you wont need to work here.
Then we will welcome you as tourists and you can even come to my house. We'
ll share some mango pickles and green chilis.

Regards,

Walker Rowe

Rick Delaney

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
[posted & mailed]

Walker Rowe wrote:
[much idiocy snipped]

Thanks, now the constant barrage of FAQs here doesn't seem so
intolerable. Please find somewhere else to troll with this garbage.
This group is for discussion about the Perl programming language. Your
post had NOTHING to do with that.

--
Rick Delaney
rick.d...@home.com

Kim Saunders

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
>The market is good now and you are making lots of money. But what will you
>do when we have another recession? And how will you find a job make if
your
>résumé is buried under and avalanche of Indian, Chinese, Filipino, and
>European curriculum vitae.


Uh huh... well if you're as good as you think you are, yours will stand out
no matter how much money you want.

>To my European friends I would say why don't you improve your own economy
>and quit doffing off ours? :"On the dole", isn't that what you Brits say?
>To the French and Germans I say why protect your farmers with subsidized
>crops. Your European and French parliaments are dominated by Socialists.
>Your 17% VAT tax stymies free enterprise and hinders entrepreneurs. Quit
>taxing your citizens so heavily. Give your employers the right to fire
>workers and allow your businesses to award stock options. Then you won't
>have to suffer 20% unemployment in Spain. What happened to the
>freedom-loving ideas of the French revolution? In 1789 the words "liberté,
>egalité, fraternité" meant freedom from the clutches of bureaucracy. Bring
>back Voltaire and Robespierre and toss out Jacque Delors.


Ooh! Socialists! Evil! You yanks wouldn't know a thing about politics, or
anything remotely different from what you've got. As proven by your stupid
holy wars on communism, drugs, etc that haven't got you anywhere, and merely
demonstrated your ignorance.

The fact is there's more to life than numbers. So what, there's 20%
unemployment in spain? Maybe they aren't prepared to enflict 3rd world
poverty on their citizens so that a few can be filthy rich? Or am I starting
to sound like an evil "Socialist"?

>But as we all know Europeans are only the most vocal lot of high tech
>immigrants. By far the biggest abusers of our generous immigration laws
>wish to attract little attention and tend to remain mum. These are the
>Indians. Fully 42% of H1B visa go to overseas Indians. Why don't you
>Indians practice a little capitalism in Delhi and Bombay and rid your
>economy of socialist law? I don't dislike you personally-I have many
Indian
>friends and enjoy reading V.S. Naipal and Salman Rushdie. And "Karma
Sutra"
>was a hell of a movie. But when you flock here by the millions I must
>protest.


Salman Rushdie lives in england. Although I don't suppose you'd care to look
further than his name?

>To help frame this debate, the American reader of this letter needs some
>historical perspective of India and the Indian diaspora. During the 1970
>while the United States fought a proxy war with the Russians in Afghanistan
>Indian was a Soviet ally. The Indian economy was and in many ways today
>remains officially socialist. Coca-Cola could not even sell their products
>there. You could buy a Coke in Katmandu but in India they had to slap a
>non-American label on their product lest they offend the local soda pop
>bottler. And now Indian threatens world peace with their reckless
>experiments with nuclear weapons. No doubt their scientists garnered the
>know how to build these bombs from American universities.


Oh no! We can't sell our yank drink all over the universe! Perish the
tought! Commie bastards at work again???

Well, I come from australia, and your president has just put a 40% tariff on
australian lamb imports. You are a yank, so you can't see what americans do
to protect themselves. 40% is a HELL of a tariff. And how many lamb farmers
is this protecting??? A handful. There is barely any industry to protect.
The USA is one of the worst offenders when it comes to subsidising their own
farmers, we don't do it at all. Which means that YOU are PAYING MONEY to
make us uncompetitive.

So, india isn't allowed to restrict your drink, but you're allowed to
restrict imports of workers and produce? You have absolutely no idea how the
world actually works at all. Yanks seem incabable of seeing anything that
doesn't involve them.

>Indians come to the U.S. to find work and enjoy our democracy. Their
>country claims to be the largest democracy on earth. But the way they
treat
>each other is hardly democratic. Indian culture is divided into castes-the
>untouchables are at the bottom and the brahmins at the top. People of one
>caste do not marry or mingle with members of another caste. In Indian most
>marriages are arranged and accompanied by a dowry. In some cases, if the
>dowry paid in gold is not enough to please the husband then the bride is
>tossed onto a pire and burned to her death.


The USA is divided into castes, the rich, who can afford hospitals, health
care, and education, and the poor, who can't and don't stand a chance.
People who are poor and can't get an education in a school without massacres
can't get work and build their way up to the standard of the rich. Is this
"Democracy". Is "Democracy", USA style about tolerance? The kind of
tolerance that is paranoid enough to bribe and fight wars with countries
that happen to have a different political system? Is that really democracy?
Or am I just a "Socialist". Democracy, eh. Who was the last president that
wasn't WHITE or MALE? Given that democracy is about people representing
themselves, that would mean that, as in a democracy, you would have 50% of
your presidents female, and 10% black. Or is 100% of the population all
while males?

>If you want to know what the English thought of the Indians during the
>British Raj then you should read George Orwell's "Burmese Days". (Burma is
>not actually Indian but these people are Indians. I forget if Burma was
>once called East India but Pakistan was West India until 1970.) During the
>British Raj the Indians were not allowed to join the English clubs. They
>lived under a system of apartheid and were frequently referred to using the
>n-word. Horrible I know, but that is their history.


A huh. And now to YOUR history. How did all the blacks come to the USA? By
their own free will, I suppose? (that's what you do in a "democracy", isn't
it?) I don't suppose people down south have ever used the "n-word"? Let
alone chaining someone who could be described with the "n-word" to the back
of a truck and dragging him to his death on the road? No, surely not! Not in
our precious, perfect, egalitarian "democracy"? Don't suppose there's any
members of the old KKK un the USA?

>So to you European and Indian programmers I say stay over their and
brighten
>up your own economy by embracing the ideas of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald
>Reagan style capitalism. They did it in Hong Kong. They did it in
>Singapore. If you create some jobs over there you wont need to work here.
>Then we will welcome you as tourists and you can even come to my house.
We'
>ll share some mango pickles and green chilis.


Right. Well, I have no problem with your restricting immigration. Just
realise that while the USA has a face of democracy, freedom, and all that
crap, that's not what it's really like. Sure, it probably is if your white
and rich. But YOU have commited plenty of restrictions on trade yourself,
and you cry because you can't sell coke as coke in india.

KimS


Trond Michelsen

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
[Posted and CC'd]

Walker Rowe <limit_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7odof9$1jt$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...


> So to you European and Indian programmers I say stay over their and
brighten
> up your own economy by embracing the ideas of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald
> Reagan style capitalism. They did it in Hong Kong. They did it in
> Singapore. If you create some jobs over there you wont need to work here.
> Then we will welcome you as tourists and you can even come to my house.
We'
> ll share some mango pickles and green chilis.

OK, I don't feel like discussing politics or American supremacy, at least
not in this group, but I just have to point out that I disagree
wholeheartedly with just about everything you wrote here.

--
Trond Michelsen

Gary O'Keefe

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
Walker Rowe wrote:

[ a whole load of knee-jerk sillyness snipped ]

>To my European friends I would say why don't you improve your own economy
>and quit doffing off ours? :"On the dole", isn't that what you Brits say?

What we say these days (thanks to the eternally pleasant Norman
Tebbit) is "get on your bike." He'd be a pal of yours, being an
ignorant and stupid man prone to mistaking racism and protectionism
for libertarian idealism.

>To the French and Germans I say why protect your farmers with subsidized
>crops.

This is a question. You end questions with a question mark: '?'.
That's an easy question to answer as well - it's easier to pay them
hush money than have them parking their tractors in Parisian streets
every day.

>Your European and French parliaments are dominated by Socialists.
>Your 17% VAT tax stymies free enterprise and hinders entrepreneurs. Quit
>taxing your citizens so heavily. Give your employers the right to fire
>workers and allow your businesses to award stock options.

They do. Duh! As for the tax, it pays for the NHS, which is handy.

What gets me is that you actually believe this sort of post may
actually get read and cause a difference in the beliefs of the
readers, rather than just getting their backs up.

>Then you won't
>have to suffer 20% unemployment in Spain. What happened to the
>freedom-loving ideas of the French revolution? In 1789 the words "liberté,
>egalité, fraternité" meant freedom from the clutches of bureaucracy. Bring
>back Voltaire and Robespierre and toss out Jacque Delors.

Bring back dead, brutal murderers? Hmmm. This is the most reactionary
nonsense that I have heard on usenet for a while. Listen carefully:

1. These people are dead
2. They've been dead for nearly 200 years
3. That was a long time ago
4. We have no time machines
5. We can't go back into the past

Do you get it? The past is gone. There's no going back. So why don't
you try living in the 20th century while it's here.

>But as we all know Europeans are only the most vocal lot of high tech
>immigrants. By far the biggest abusers of our generous immigration laws
>wish to attract little attention and tend to remain mum. These are the
>Indians. Fully 42% of H1B visa go to overseas Indians. Why don't you
>Indians practice a little capitalism in Delhi and Bombay and rid your
>economy of socialist law? I don't dislike you personally-I have many Indian
>friends and enjoy reading V.S. Naipal and Salman Rushdie. And "Karma Sutra"
>was a hell of a movie. But when you flock here by the millions I must
>protest.

[ pointless and deeply flawed racist diatribe snipped ]

Now we get to the point. At last. Here are your arguments:

1. Indians are different from me
2. They have different customs and practises
3. They burn their wives to death if not paid enough (?!)
4. They are commies
5. I like indians when they are 'Uncle Toms'
6. I don't like indians when they're better than me at something
7. They are in the US now! Run for the hills! Don't forget your gun!

You forgot:

8. They are in league with
The Homosexuals
The Jews
The Elders of Zion
The Military-Industrial Complex
The Illuminati
The Greys
9. White is right! Unite and fight!

Jesus. I am the most conservative person I know, but you are a nut! I
believe in freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of
movement, property rights, and competition but all you seem to believe
in is the most negative, exclusionary, narrow-minded,
I'm-alright-Jack, not-in-my-back-yard shite.

Go away you nasty little man.

Gary (a scottish contractor - and if you have a problem with that then
I'm gonna get Braveheart on yo' ass!)
--
Gary O'Keefe
ga...@onegoodidea.com

You know the score - my current employer has nothing to do with what I post

David Cassell

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Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
Kim Saunders wrote:
[unattributed loony wrote:]

> >To my European friends I would say why don't you improve your own economy
[snip]

> Ooh! Socialists! Evil! You yanks wouldn't know a thing about politics, or
> anything remotely different from what you've got. As proven by your stupid
> holy wars on communism, drugs, etc that haven't got you anywhere, and merely
> demonstrated your ignorance.

Calm down, Kim. Just take a deep breath and remember. This bozo
doesn't
*have* any `European friends'. I doubt he has any friends whatsoever,
if
he has to post c@#p like this on usenet.

As an American who isn't insane, let me apologize for this schmuck.
Now just call him a Nazi, and we'll end the thread. :-)

David
--
David Cassell, OAO
cas...@mail.cor.epa.gov
Senior Computing Specialist
mathematical statistician

Kim Saunders

unread,
Aug 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/6/99
to
>Calm down, Kim. Just take a deep breath and remember. This bozo
>doesn't
>*have* any `European friends'. I doubt he has any friends whatsoever,
>if
>he has to post c@#p like this on usenet.
>
>As an American who isn't insane, let me apologize for this schmuck.
>Now just call him a Nazi, and we'll end the thread. :-)


Indeed. I just felt the need to explain to him that, althoug I'm sure it's a
nice place, etc, and there are lots of nice good ppl like yourself there,
it's not as brilliant as it superficially thinks it is. That was all, many
yanks are rather obsessed with their brilliant country, democracy, freedoms,
etc, when in reality they take this to extremes to deny it to many. Let's
all carry guns to make the place safer! Yup... Now that he has a dose of
reality, perhaps he can see the world for what it is. Nobody's perfect, not
even the USA..

KimS


Joseph Hertzlinger

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Aug 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/8/99
to
On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:31:00 -0400, Walker Rowe <limit_h...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Do you want to write code for $15 per hour?

Is this a help-wanted ad?

>That might be your future if
>you do not lobby Congress regarding yet another expansion of the H1B visa
>law. As you know last year Congress increased the number of H1B visas so
>that 135,000 foreign computer programmers could come to the United States.
>In previous years that program was limited to 65,000 people. But the
>135,000 programmer cap was reached in the first five months of this year, so
>Silicon Valley is clamoring for more.

Are you advocating government regulations?

>It stymies the mind why even liberal, pro-labor members of Congress, like
>Senator Barbara McCulsky, would embrace this threat to our livelihoods.

Liberals have a self-image of themselves as anti-authoritarian.
Sometimes they follow through on that.

>The last time I wrote about this pocket money issue, hundreds of smug
>Europeans and contract programming Asians flamed me with hate mail.

Nothing from libertarians?

>To my European friends I would say why don't you improve your own economy
>and quit doffing off ours?

Why do you want to imitate them with anti-capitalist regulations?

>To help frame this debate, the American reader of this letter needs some
>historical perspective of India and the Indian diaspora. During the 1970
>while the United States fought a proxy war with the Russians in Afghanistan
>Indian was a Soviet ally. The Indian economy was and in many ways today
>remains officially socialist. Coca-Cola could not even sell their products
>there. You could buy a Coke in Katmandu but in India they had to slap a
>non-American label on their product lest they offend the local soda pop
>bottler.

Are you claiming we must restrict immigration from socialist countries?
That would have kept Ayn Rand out.

>East African and Fiji Island have log been overrun by Indians. Kenya was so
>thoroughly disgusted by their presence that they kicked out the entire
>Indian population in the 1970s.

That sounds familiar somehow ...

>If you want to know what the English thought of the Indians during the
>British Raj then you should read George Orwell's "Burmese Days".

Will this thread be renamed "900 QUOTES FAMOUS MEN HAVE SAID ABOUT !ND!@NS"?

>So to you European and Indian programmers I say stay over their and brighten
>up your own economy by embracing the ideas of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald
>Reagan style capitalism.

I think that should include deregulating labor markets.

ObPerl: It is especially inappropriate to post this rant advocating that
America should abandon the tradition of being a nation of immigrants on a
newsgroup dedicated to a computer language which consists of ideas that
have immigrated from other computer languages. (That was far-fetched,
wasn't it?)


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