Are there any "perl.newbie" group or forum?
Hauk Langlo
afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
and leave you guys alone.
Hauk Langlo
--
----------------------------------
Hauk Langlo
Ha...@forumnett.no
http://www.forumnett.no/~hauk
(+047) 93438940
----------------------------------
Dave Barnett
>
> I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
> afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time.
<$0.02>
Being told to read the f*&king manual (RTFM) is this groups way of
'teaching you to fish', rather than just feeding you. (You know the old
adage: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish,
and he'll eat for a lifetime.)
> I'm not an
> expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> might be of a basic nature to some.
comp.lang.perl.misc is here to allow you to ask your questions, but it
is not here to answer stupid[*] ones.
> If you know about something like
> that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
> and leave you guys alone.
The posters of this group do not want you to 'go away and leave you guys
alone'. What they are trying to do is seperate the corn from the schaff
(sp?). In other words, if you can't read the documentation (whether you
understand it or not), then you shouldn't be programming.
Some general rules that will help you in your quest to understand perl:
1) Read the fine manual
2) perldoc is your friend
3) perldoc perldoc will provide some useful information about perldoc
4) perldoc perl will give you a table of contents of what perldoc can
tell you.
5) when you post a message, include a snippet (10-20) lines of code
that demonstrates the problem you are having.
6) If you are asking something because you don't understand what you
read, make sure to state that, and be clear about what it is that you
are having problems with. Saying 'print "Hi\n";' doesn't work tells us
nothing. Doesn't work meaning: erased all files from your hard drive,
gave you a headache, caused your machine to present the 'blue screen of
death'....
7) Use the web. http://www.perl.com is your friend
The posters of this group are more than willing to help those who are
willing (and trying) to help themselves.
>
> Hauk Langlo
</$0.02>
HTH.
Cheers,
Dave
* stupid meaning: not-researched, not thought about, no evidence of any
research being done .... e.g. How do I print something to my screen?
would be an example of a 'stupid' question. A moments worth of
reading/research would have yielded you the answer.
--
Dave Barnett Software Support Engineer (281) 596-1434
No need to tell me the incredibly obvious, the merely obvious will do
nicely, thank you.
Patrick Timmins
Hauk Langlo <ha...@forumnett.no> wrote:
> I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
> afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
> expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
> that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
> and leave you guys alone.
RTFM! perlfaq2 (Obtaining and Learning about Perl):
What are the Perl newsgroups on USENET? Where do I post questions?
:) <- note
Patrick Timmins
$monger{Omaha}[0]
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
James Ludlow
>
> I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
> afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
> expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
> that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
> and leave you guys alone.
Yes there is. It's called Deja News.
http://www.dejanews.com/home_ps.shtml
Every FAQ and question you can possibly imagine has probably already
been asked, and here's the archive for them. This is no substitute for
the FAQ or the docs, but it is a great resource to use before actually
posting to Usenet. Most times, you'll either find the answer directly,
or find a pointer to the location in the docs to look.
In the power search, enter comp.lang.perl.misc for a forum, and then
enter your search words at the top.
For instance, in the case of finding out how to randomize an array, try
the keywords "array randomize" (without the quotes).
While reading an actual post, look for the "view thread" button. This
will give a more Usenet-like view of the thread in question. It makes
it easier to follow the flow of the questions and answers.
There's actually quite a lot you can do with this search engine. Say
you're not sure if your question is really a perl question or not. You
can use a forum name like "comp.*". You'll likely get too many results,
but the key here is to look at the group names that come up. This will
give you an idea of where to actually ask your question. Now you can go
back and narrow down the forum field to the appropriate group.
Work with this search engine for a while, and it will definitely pay
off.
--
James Ludlow (lud...@us.ibm.com)
Disclaimer: This isn't technical support, and all opinions are my own.
John Porter
>
> I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
> afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
> expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
> that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
> and leave you guys alone.
You will not be happy, then, to learn that this is actually a FAQ
itself. It has been beaten to death, over and over again.
It's a bad idea. If you want to know why, I suggest you do a
simple search of comp.lang.perl.misc at Deja News.
If the effect of yelling RTFM is to make people reluctant to post
Frequently Asked Questions, then that is a Good Thing.
Perhaps they'll be more likely to try to find the answer somewhere
else, such as in the copious documentation that comes with every
installation of Perl.
Maybe you should read this newsgroup for a week, and get
an idea for what kinds of things we like to talk about.
--
John "Many Jars" Porter
baby mother hospital scissors creature judgment butcher engineer
Craig Berry
: I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
: afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time.
They need have no fear if they've R'd TFM, of course. Even those who read
it but do not understand what they read, or read it but miss the relevant
section, or read the wrong manual are treated kindly. It's those who have
clearly not made any effort *at all* to answer their questions using
Perl's comprehensive, well-written doc who get themselves flamed -- and
rightfully so.
: I'm not an
: expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
: discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
: might be of a basic nature to some.
There is, and you posted to it. Read the doc, read the FAQs, and if you
still find yourself puzzled, ask clpm! I've never *ever* seen a question
that began along the lines of "I read about foo in the perlbar manpage,
but when I tried baz with it I was surprised to see quux..." get flamed.
Never.
: If you know about something like
: that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
: and leave you guys alone.
We don't want any Perl users going away. We need all the intelligent,
thoughtful participants we can get.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cbe...@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| "Ripple in still water, when there is no pebble tossed,
nor wind to blow..."
Jürgen Pünter
>
>I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
>expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
>discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
>that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
>and leave you guys alone.
<sigh>
AFAIK, it was never a problem to ask 'basic questions'
in this group.
However, what you might mean is 'questions that have been
asked and answered 1000s of times already' - in short FAQs.
I believe this difference has been made very clear to you in
the past (judging from what I could get from DejaNews). Sam
Holden and Casper Clause told you similar things a short time
ago when you asked about shuffling an array.
Now, if you still insist on using clpm as your personal
helpdesk, asking FAQs etc., you should expect to be treated
to a lot of RTFM, use perldoc, read the FAQ...
HTH
Juergen Puenter
Michael J Gebis
}Being told to read the f*&king manual (RTFM) is this groups way of
}'teaching you to fish', rather than just feeding you. (You know the old
}adage: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish,
}and he'll eat for a lifetime.)
Aha! Read the fishing manual.
--
Mike Gebis ge...@ecn.purdue.edu mge...@eternal.net
Rick Koehler
>Dave Barnett <bar...@houston.Geco-Prakla.slb.com> writes:
>
>}Being told to read the f*&king manual (RTFM) is this groups way of
>}'teaching you to fish', rather than just feeding you. (You know the
old
>}adage: Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish,
>}and he'll eat for a lifetime.)
>
>Aha! Read the fishing manual.
Ah, yes! Now we can say "Read the Fishing Manual" instead of upsetting
someone's sensibilities. RTFM can be shortened to GF, for "Go Fish".
=8^)
As a matter of fact, why don't we totally automate, and respond thusly:
C perldoc
GF
HTH
It would save a lot of bandwidth and energy.
This idea of fishing could open new ground, fertile new fields for
various religious wars ... "What is the better way to fish, bait-casting
with
a Java spinning reel, or trout fishing with Perl using snippets you've
tied yourself".
or maybe ... "Catch-and-Release" as applied to the concept of
encrypting code/free software/selling your Perl-derived app.
Yup, I believe we have a winner here. Plus, we all know how much
fish like a little peanut butter.
Sorry, gotta go take my medicine now.
madame philosophe
documentation. I have spent a LOT of money and time on Perl Books (name one I
proabably have it). I have trawled newsgroups, as well as the webpages at
perl.com, .org etc.
These do not help newbies, unless a person spends DAYS looking for the
anwser. In the mean time, it marches on.
I've emailed Lincoln Stein, who was much more helpful than this list, so much
so it shocked me. But even he is very busy and has a patience quotient.
People seek the newsgroups because they need help, not because they are
stupid.
If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup? Or why don't you
"professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout? As the web grows
there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me for saying so.
I myself ended up here because clpm is listed in the O Reilly Books.
(Actually the address they put in the book no longer exists and when I
emailed them about it they sent me here, much to my dismay.) Then I ended up
back here because someone in another group recommended I come here for CGI.pm
help. This is what WE go through.
So if we newbies are such a pain in the ass, you can look to elements that
are not just the blame of we who are in search of know-how. Granted there are
some very lazy people out there, but then this is trait is supposed to make a
good Perl programmer according to Father Wall...
I would love to write a decent Perl book or publish a Perl Faq. When I have a
free moment I may do it. I've read such crap I can't believe it. It's as
though one is supposed to know Perl already in order to know about it. I'm
certain this is NOT what any of the "true blue Perl ancient scribers" had in
mind.
I realize I am opening myself up for flaming, but I'm ready for you kind of
cowards. Just go ahead and knock the battery off my shoulder!!!
However, what I'm more interested in is solutions than combat. If this is a
FAQ then let it be one. If it is some sort of clique, get over yourselves!
It doesn't take a lot of brains to take pot shots to well meaning people.
And I'm sure you are all much more intelligent than that.
What will you do?? The newbies cometh...
John Porter wrote:
> Hauk Langlo wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
> > afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
> > expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> > discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> > might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
> > that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
> > and leave you guys alone.
>
Marc Bissonnette
says...
>
>AFAIK, it was never a problem to ask 'basic questions'
>in this group.
>
>However, what you might mean is 'questions that have been
>asked and answered 1000s of times already' - in short FAQs.
<snip>
>Now, if you still insist on using clpm as your personal
>helpdesk, asking FAQs etc., you should expect to be treated
>to a lot of RTFM, use perldoc, read the FAQ...
I'll add my .02 here, too :)
I agree with all the responses to this thread: RTFM is definitely the best way
to go about it before posting to clpm. Personally, my order of searching for
answers is the following:
1) Is it in Learning Perl? if no then =>
2) Is it in Programming Perl? if no then =>
3) Is it retrievable via DejaNews? (And 75% of them are :) if no then =>
5) Is it being discussed in CLPM? if no then =>
6) Is it being discussed in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi? if no then =>
7) Can I find samples of code from other scripts via the web? if no then =>
8) Post to CLPM
If this seams time consuming, it's really much shorter than posting to Usenet
then waiting for your ISP (especially if you have a crummy newsfeed) to post
any asnwers. Best of all, the above eight steps have led me to learn a ton of
Perl tricks along the way :) :) :)
So there's my .02 (Though it's in canadian funds, so only about .01 american)
--
Marc Bissonnette
InternAlysis
Corporate Internet Research and Results!
http://www.internalysis.com
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> These do not help newbies, unless a person spends DAYS looking for the
> anwser. In the mean time, it marches on.
I would disagree with this statement. Everyone learns differently and
each must in turn find the best way to educate themselves. Sadly, there
is no magic cream or pill one can take to accomplish this. I tried
osmosis in college with O-chem and it didn't quite work as advertised.
Usenet has been around for a bit and its true that it used to be a
quiter, smaller more techie kind of place, it is still much the same.
Newbies, flaming, personalities. We sometimes tend to forget that there
are people behind the keyboard and all that comes with it. So, my best
advice would be to keep reading and post away. No pain, no gain. Get out
the asbestos suit and c'mon in. With a will, there is a way and with
desire, no goal is unattainable.
> It doesn't take a lot of brains to take pot shots to well meaning people.
> And I'm sure you are all much more intelligent than that.
Abigail makes some of the most delicious 'pot shots' sometimes and she
is pretty bright from what I gather. Brains rarely guarantees patience
and humility.
e.
"All of us, all of us, all of us trying to save our immortal souls, some
ways seemingly more round-about and mysterious than others. We're having
a good time here. But hope all will be revealed soon." R. Carver
madame philosophe
Abigail wrote:
> madame philosophe (m...@mkt2mkt.com) wrote on MDCCCLXIII September MCMXCIII
> in <URL:news:361AB178...@mkt2mkt.com>:
> ++
> ++ If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
> ++ doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup? Or why don't you
> ++ "professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout? As the web grows
> ++ there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me for saying so.
>
> *PLONK*
>
> Start a newsgroup yourself.
>
Am I qualified to do so? Time will tell....
As far as people's responses to my posting, I thank you for your civility. It's
been more so than I'm accustomed to.I do think that my brain is damaged enough to
learn this stuff, however. So no need to get personal...
I've been *PLONK*'d loads thank you. In fact I can do it in my sleep.
One reason I feel qualified is that I'm beginning to dream in Perl.
*PLONK* is the sound of the last perl book book falling on my head as I .....
zzzzzz......
> Abigail
> --
> perl -wle 'print "Prime" if (1 x shift) !~ /^1?$|^(11+?)\1+$/'
David A. Black
Hauk Langlo <ha...@forumnett.no> writes:
>I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
>afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
>expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
>discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
>might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
>that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
>and leave you guys alone.
But what good would it do to have beginners trying to answer each
others' questions?
I (intermediate Perl programmer, I like to think) spend a fair amount
of time helping people out, including people who need a boost to grasp
something that is explained in the documentation but just isn't coming
clear to them. But there's a sort of ground zero of checking things
that everyone really should do before posting. Of course one might
miss something, but still - grepping perlfaq* for "random" or "array"
or "shuffle" would have at least gotten you started.
Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about reading the documentation.
To put yourself in the right frame of mind, imagine that the docs
hadn't existed until today. Then, suddenly, someone calls you and
excitedly says, "Guess what?! Tens of thousands of words about the
Perl programming language, by its creators and maintainers, just
appeared for free on your hard disk!!" Think how thrilled you'd be.
David Black
dbl...@saturn.superlink.net
(P.S. See Nathan Torkington's semi-weekly "FAQ: ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS"
post.)
Abigail
in <URL:news:361AB178...@mkt2mkt.com>:
++
++ If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
++ doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup? Or why don't you
++ "professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout? As the web grows
++ there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me for saying so.
*PLONK*
Start a newsgroup yourself.
Abigail
Craig Berry
: I am a person who has spent a very very long time looking at Perl
: documentation. I have spent a LOT of money and time on Perl Books (name one I
: proabably have it). I have trawled newsgroups, as well as the webpages at
: perl.com, .org etc.
And nobody who can show they've made intelligent use of such references
ever gets flamed.
: These do not help newbies, unless a person spends DAYS looking for the
: anwser. In the mean time, it marches on.
If it's taking you days to find answers to simple questions in the Perl
doc and (good) Perl books, then one or more of these statements is true:
1) You're not cut out for this field. Not everyone has the mutant brain
chemistry required to grok programming.
2) By sheer random (bad) luck, you have all the wrong books. Toss 'em and
get the Llama, the Camel, and other books generally recommended on
clpm.
3) You haven't learned how to use reference materials well. Get familiar
with the indices of your paper books, and grep (or another search tool)
for your electronic doc.
: I've emailed Lincoln Stein, who was much more helpful than this list, so much
: so it shocked me. But even he is very busy and has a patience quotient.
:
: People seek the newsgroups because they need help, not because they are
: stupid.
I'm sorry, but people who ask FAQs are either stupid or rude; on the
whole, I have more sympathy for the stupid ones, as rudeness is a choice.
: If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
: doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
This has been discussed to death. Feel free to launch alt.perl.newbies,
but it'll almost certainly devolve into a stew of newbies giving each
other incorrect information and horrible advice.
: Or why don't you
: "professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout?
Why? We welcome newbies through gurus here -- so long as everyone does
their homework. I can assure you that those times I've posted something
stupid (broken code, an incorrect statement about Perl), I've been flamed
just like any FAQ-asking newbie. Well, perhaps a bit less intensely
flamed, but that's because (I hope) I've built up some clpm positive karma
by *not* doing dumb things most of the time.
: As the web grows there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me for saying so.
Great! And the door is open. But just as the question "What's two plus
two?" would be unwelcome in an algebra class, the question "How do I split
a line on whitespace?" is unwelcome in clpm. You're expected to bring
*some* (easily available, distributed-with-Perl) knowledge to this table.
: I myself ended up here because clpm is listed in the O Reilly Books.
: (Actually the address they put in the book no longer exists and when I
: emailed them about it they sent me here, much to my dismay.) Then I ended up
: back here because someone in another group recommended I come here for CGI.pm
: help. This is what WE go through.
I'm not sure I follow. What did you want to find out, that the CGI.pm doc
(combined with basic Perl literacy) didn't cover, which we were unwilling
to answer?
: So if we newbies are such a pain in the ass, you can look to elements that
: are not just the blame of we who are in search of know-how. Granted there are
: some very lazy people out there, but then this is trait is supposed to make a
: good Perl programmer according to Father Wall...
Yes, but you'll note that he uses the term in a very special way. Is it
lazier to look for an answer in a book already on your shelf, or a doc
already on your hardrive, and have the answer in five minutes, or to ask
on clpm, risking your good name in the Perl community for an answer that
might take hours or days to arrive, and might be wrong?
: I would love to write a decent Perl book or publish a Perl Faq.
Do!!
: When I have a free moment I may do it.
...but I imagine it'll take more than a moment. :)
: I've read such crap I can't believe it. It's as
: though one is supposed to know Perl already in order to know about it. I'm
: certain this is NOT what any of the "true blue Perl ancient scribers" had in
: mind.
Have you read the Llama? That's the 'onramp' to Perl, IMHO. The other
doc doesn't waste your time re-explaining every element of the language
everywhere it's used. I consider this a feature.
: I realize I am opening myself up for flaming, but I'm ready for you kind of
: cowards. Just go ahead and knock the battery off my shoulder!!!
Hope you don't consider this a flame; it's not. I'm attempting to
reorient your worldview.
: However, what I'm more interested in is solutions than combat. If this is a
: FAQ then let it be one.
Well, more of a meta-FAQ, I guess.
: If it is some sort of clique, get over yourselves!
Nah, we're far too power-mad to do that.
: It doesn't take a lot of brains to take pot shots to well meaning people.
: And I'm sure you are all much more intelligent than that.
:
: What will you do?? The newbies cometh...
I'm hoping they'll all become good Netizens, and productive members of the
Perl community. I'll do what I can to help them on the path.
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> One reason I feel qualified is that I'm beginning to dream in Perl.
>
> *PLONK* is the sound of the last perl book book falling on my head as I .....
Hrm...You just simply must be a troll.
e.
Michael J Gebis
}If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
}doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
You've made a common mistake. People don't flame you because they
want you to leave; hell, it's GREAT fun to flame somebody, and if you
leave, you spoil the fun. In fact, getting flamed isn't even what really
annoys you!
What does annoy you is that nobody sticks up for you after you get
unfairly flamed. It's actually great fun to get flamed and
then have loads of folks stick up for you. Unfortunately, years of
trivial questions, off-topic posts (and if you haven't noticed yet,
I'm quite off-topic), and pointless repetition have left most people
desensitized and vaguely resentful of the same old story.
Imagine the town bar from your favorite post-apocalypse,
end-of-the-world, mid-80's sci-fi movie. _Solarbabies_ doesn't
count. The villagers in the movie aren't bad people, but they've seen
way too many visitors pop in, make a big mess, and leave without so much
as a contribution to the town water bank. Now you show up. If you waltz
in like the young Luke Skywalker, nobody will want anything to
do with you. Unless, of course, they need somebody to tease.
Take my advice: Be Obi-Wan. Be Han Solo, or Chewie, or Greedo.
Heck, you can even be a member of the band. Just don't be Luke.
He's a dork.
Shambo Pfaff
movie to which you refer is late 70's, not mid-80's.
May the Schwartz be with you.
John Moreno
> Abigail wrote:
>
> > madame philosophe (m...@mkt2mkt.com) wrote
> > ++
> > ++ If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions..
> > ++ why doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup? Or why don't you
> > ++ "professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout? As the web
> > ++ grows there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me
> > ++ for saying so.
> >
> > *PLONK*
> >
> > Start a newsgroup yourself.
> >
>
> Am I qualified to do so? Time will tell....
Anybody using a newsreader that is able to create the right headers is
"qualified" to do so - you aren't using such a newsreader but several
are available for you to do so (actually I guess it'd be possible to do
it without a newsreader that can create the headers, but that'd be a bit
more difficult).
The problem is that there is no demand for a newsgroup where people go
to not get perl help.
"Hey I don't know how to split on white space using perl, how do I not
find out how to do that?", "Go to alt.lang.per.newbie - they won't be
able to tell you how to do that, and if they try the answer will be
wrong", "Sounds great, just what I was looking for".
--
John Moreno
madame philosophe
1. I shouldn't start a newsgroup
2. You guys aren't as mean as once thought.
3. Though snide, can be reasonable.
4. Have given me a better understanding what on earth the problem is.
What I don't understand is this:
If someone is posting a "dumb" question (If there is such a thing),
why not just ignore it? Treat it like spam?
Instead of the subject line: How to Find The Perl FAQ
Say something more for newbies, like: Need Help With Perl? Here's What To
Do...
or even better: Newbies: How To Use This Newsgroup
As far as the "user inyourface" it could diminish some of the more earnest
learners from having to humiliate themselves.
Comments?
mp
Randal Schwartz
Shambo> May the Schwartz be with you.
"looks like your schwartz is bigger than mine". :)
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <mer...@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger mer...@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
Patrick Timmins
madame philosophe <m...@mkt2mkt.com> wrote:
> What I don't understand is this:
>
> If someone is posting a "dumb" question (If there is such a thing),
> why not just ignore it? Treat it like spam?
(Almost) no question will be totally ignored. If one of the true
experts does not respond, the Siren call of the naked question in
tens of thousands of news readers around the world will be too
seductive for one or more "up and coming" Perl types to resist.
They'll indulge their urge to help out ... they'll want to share
what they've recently learned with someone else. They'll post
wantonly, until they've sated their need to "fix" your problem.
Unfortunately, since they themselves are still learning much,
they will often leave you with a "little surprise" when they've
finished, in the form of a bug or two. The true experts will then
have to wade in to clean up, since DejaNews and other archives
are storing all of this forever. Otherwise the bugs and perverted
thinking could spread and contaminate countless other newbies
out there trying to learn Perl.
The safest way to go is to abstain. Read the newsgroup for a month
or more while you're learning Perl before you ever even think of
posting a question. Instead of turning to others, just satisfy
yourself with the Perl docs that are right there on your hard drive!
No false promises. No perverted code. No bugs to watch out for.
This is what the experts and the rest of us are trying to tell
newbies. Don't be a statistic in this epidemic of foolishness. Learn
from others that *have* been where you are, and save yourself
alot of pain and suffering on your way up the Perl ladder:
read the FAQ's and docs that came with your Perl. The best answers
to most of your questions have been with you all along! There's
no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place
like home.
Patrick Timmins
$monger{Omaha}[0]
Omaha, NE - "The Emerald City"
John Moreno
> Well it seems that
>
> 1. I shouldn't start a newsgroup
That's probably wise.
> 2. You guys aren't as mean as once thought.
>
> 3. Though snide, can be reasonable.
Hopefully true.
> 4. Have given me a better understanding what on earth the problem is.
>
> What I don't understand is this:
>
> If someone is posting a "dumb" question (If there is such a thing),
> why not just ignore it? Treat it like spam?
Because unlike with spam - prompt action can (as with you) enlighten the
poster and enable him to avoid asking any more "dumb" questions.
> Instead of the subject line: How to Find The Perl FAQ
>
> Say something more for newbies, like: Need Help With Perl? Here's What
> To Do...
>
> or even better: Newbies: How To Use This Newsgroup
Because "FAQ" is the standard way of saying both of those things for any
group - one of the first things you should do when reading or posting to
a group is look up the FAQ. A dejanews search for "faq" in a newsgroup
should /always/ be one of your first steps before asking a question in
it ESPECIALLY if you think the answer is probably simple.
> As far as the "user inyourface" it could diminish some of the more earnest
> learners from having to humiliate themselves.
>
> Comments?
What needs to happen is for the RTFM and FAQ to become such common ideas
that people actually DO RTFM and look for the FAQs. The "inyourface" is
intended to help spread them.
--
John Moreno
John Porter
>
> People seek the newsgroups because they need help, not because they
> are stupid.
The issue is about maximizing the value of this (or any) newsgroup,
both to the querant, and to others. Being lazy is not an excuse --
cute aphorisms not withstanding.
> If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.
> why doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
This question has already been discussed, and answered.
Many times.
But you wouldn't know that, would you?
> As the web grows there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT.
No, it's not that simple.
"People are going to come and deposit bodily excretions in your
sandbox. Get used to it." No, I'm sorry. There are trends which
must be resisted, however futile it turns out to be.
> It doesn't take a lot of brains to take pot shots to well meaning people.
You would know...
Pat Luther
>Comments?
Yeah: As a new user of perl myself, (suddenly thrust into it here :-)
I've found this newsgroup pretty valuable just the way it is.
A couple of my questions were answered rather snidely, true, but even
the "This question has been answered a hundred times before. Why don't
you go read the perl faq (http://language.perl.com/faq) before bothering
us?" type answers were useful in that it did communicate the information
that:
1. There *is* a perl faq.
2. It could answer the question I had.
3. Where to find it (now bookmarked on my browser :-)
So, to anyone trying to figure out some way to make perl do what you
want it to do, if you want a civil response, I'd recommend:
1. Try guessing first, see if you can make it work. Sometimes you'll
stumble on the answer, but you'll probably narrow the question down
a bit so you can be more specific.
2. Look it up in the Camel book (but of course, questions like "How come
my output isn't in the right order" can't really be indexed :-)
3. Search the perl faq at http://language.perl.com/faq (Now that you know
it exists and where to find it).
4. Just ignore any responses to your post that aren't helpful.
??pat
--
--
Pat Luther t_p...@qualcomm.com http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~pluther
"Reality? Illusion? One thing I've learned is to always present
a moving target." -Jack Flanders
Craig Berry
: 2. You guys aren't as mean as once thought.
Rats, we'll have to try harder. :)
: 3. Though snide, can be reasonable.
When backed to the wall and given no other option, yes, sometimes.
: 4. Have given me a better understanding what on earth the problem is.
:
: What I don't understand is this:
:
: If someone is posting a "dumb" question (If there is such a thing),
: why not just ignore it? Treat it like spam?
I do treat it like spam. I instantly turn a spam mail/post into a complaint
to the source's ISP emailed via abuse.net. Ignoring problems hoping
they'll go away doesn't work well in an anarchic community like the net.
We, each of us, *are* the police force, the fire department, the trash
collectors. If we don't do the job, there's no 'authority' that will do
it for us.
I do not wish clpm to be overrun by FAQs; thus, I take active steps to
avoid this happening.
Uri Guttman
>>>>> "Shambo" == Shambo Pfaff <sha...@bacon-and-spam.timeoutny.com> writes:
Shambo> May the Schwartz be with you.
RS> "looks like your schwartz is bigger than mine". :)
randal,
he was quoting from "spaceballs", mediocre star wars spoof by mel brooks.
but you probably knew that.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ----------------- SYStems ARCHitecture and Software Engineering
Perl Hacker for Hire ---------------------- Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting
u...@sysarch.com ------------------------------------ http://www.sysarch.com
The Best Search Engine on the Net ------------- http://www.northernlight.com
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> he was quoting from "spaceballs", mediocre star wars spoof by mel brooks.
> but you probably knew that.
Uri, don't be such a dork ;) And it wasn't so mediocre. Mel rulez man! I
laughed :)
Blazing Saddles...who could forget? *giggle* May the schwartz be with
you ;). Daphne Zuniga as Princess Leia....The whole Hopi
motif....*sigh*, I'm too easily amused.
e.
Craig Berry
: >>>>> "RS" == Randal Schwartz <mer...@stonehenge.com> writes:
: >>>>> "Shambo" == Shambo Pfaff <sha...@bacon-and-spam.timeoutny.com> writes:
: Shambo> May the Schwartz be with you.
:
: RS> "looks like your schwartz is bigger than mine". :)
:
: randal,
: he was quoting from "spaceballs", mediocre star wars spoof by mel brooks.
: but you probably knew that.
And so (nearly) was Randal. I believe the original line, spoken by Lord
Dark Helmet, was "I see your schwartz is as big as mine...but do you know
how to use it?" :)
Jeff Zucker
no, seasoned posters should not be required to answer the same old
questions again and again. But ...
Let's look at this as a signal to noise ratio: for every "clueless"
posting on clpm, there are two or three flame resposnes to it, which
makes three or four worthless messages on the group. What about the
value of resounding silence? I ask a stupid question and no one bothers
to reply, hmm, maybe I should rephrase it more intelligently or try
somewhere else.
Heck, I enjoy a good flame as much as the next person, but I don't
really enjoy the endless, pointless flames on the same RTFM topic - it
sours the tone of the group and multiples the number of messages I scan
and wish I hadn't. I don't really think the perl community is made up
of 12 year old boys (of all genders and ages) but some days it sure
sounds like that.
- Jeff Zucker
dtu...@pobox.com
Hauk Langlo <ha...@forumnett.no> wrote:
>I'm not an
> expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
> discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
> might be of a basic nature to some.
It has been my observation that this newsgroup IS open to all, newbies,
'middies,' and experts. What prompts the RTFM replies is people asking
questions that a quick search of www.perl.com or dejanews, or the like would
answer. If you do alittle work for yourself and miss the answer, you'll get
an answer. (Been on both sides of that.)
Besides, if someone gets a RTFM reply to their question, so what? received a
few myself and it didn't break any bones. :-)
cheers,
david
Randal Schwartz
Craig> And so (nearly) was Randal. I believe the original line, spoken by Lord
Craig> Dark Helmet, was "I see your schwartz is as big as mine...but do you know
Craig> how to use it?" :)
Yes, that's the line I was mismembering. :)
Oh, and Uri, you have "stealth cc's". I've killfiled people for that.
Please don't do that. (Your mail copy to me wasn't marked as "also
posted", so I replied to you privately before seeing it in the
newsgroup. Evil.)
I R A Aggie
+ Let's look at this as a signal to noise ratio: for every "clueless"
+ posting on clpm, there are two or three flame resposnes to it, which
+ makes three or four worthless messages on the group. What about the
+ value of resounding silence?
Because someone less clueful will pipe up, and give an answer. An
answer that may be wrong, BTW.
James
madame philosophe
John Porter wrote:
> madame philosophe wrote:
> >
> > People seek the newsgroups because they need help, not because they
> > are stupid.
>
> The issue is about maximizing the value of this (or any) newsgroup,
> both to the querant, and to others. Being lazy is not an excuse --
> cute aphorisms not withstanding.
Yes, I agree.
>
>
> > If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.
> > why doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
>
> This question has already been discussed, and answered.
> Many times.
> But you wouldn't know that, would you?
Ha Ha.
>
>
> > As the web grows there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT.
>
> No, it's not that simple.
>
> "People are going to come and deposit bodily excretions in your
> sandbox. Get used to it." No, I'm sorry. There are trends which
> must be resisted, however futile it turns out to be.
Oh, come ON!!! Are you telling me nebie questions are likened to excrement?
Shame on you.
I would hate to think if such a thing were to happen in real life. But
actually it does...ever been to Paris? They love their dogs there...(If
you've seen the movie Ready to Wear" they have a lot of fun with the "stepping
in dog poo in Paris" jokes.) Paris is so wonderful that you do get used to the
poo, and you learn to have the atennas up to walk around it. Paris is a
wonderful sandbox and the poo is there to stay.
I know this is getting away from Perl, but you brought up the sandbox and I
think if Perl could be Paris and I were an expert rather than a just a pert, I
too would be used to poo.
>
>
> > It doesn't take a lot of brains to take pot shots to well meaning people.
>
> You would know...
I know you are.. but what am I? ;=}
mp
Craig Berry
: > "People are going to come and deposit bodily excretions in your
: > sandbox. Get used to it." No, I'm sorry. There are trends which
: > must be resisted, however futile it turns out to be.
:
: excrement? Shame on you.
Folks, if we don't start using precise language to discuss this issue,
we're sunk. Nobody (whose posts I've seen) is comparing *all* newbie
questions to excrement. Quite a few of us are comparing *FAQs* (typically
posted by newbies) to excrement, or spam, or other messy, annoying things.
You can't rationally debate this topic until you make a clear division
between the postings of ignorant but well-intentioned newbies who have
made the best use they know how of all resources at their disposal, and
the postings of those who ask FAQs because they can't be bothered to read
any of the available doc before asking thousands of people to do their
homework for them.
John Porter
>
> (Almost) no question will be totally ignored. If one of the true
> experts does not respond, the Siren call of the naked question in
> tens of thousands of news readers around the world will be too
> seductive for one or more "up and coming" Perl types to resist.
This, sadly, is not true -- at least not for all types of questions.
I track many questions that go unanswered. Not newbie questions,
interesting ones; such as --
"Perl on the AS/400"
<35F8023A...@copart.com>
This question has been asked many times in the last year or
so; but apparently no AS/400 Perl experts inhabit clpm.
"Class as Datatypes?"
<3606A5A0...@us.oracle.com>
"Perl, SWIG, CORBA?"
<36091B75...@uni-paderborn.de>
"OO: How to make "dual" natured package"
<ptru31w...@olkikukka.uta.fi>
"anyone using gtk/perl???"
<36186329...@earthlink.net>
And many others.
I keep waiting for some knowledgeable person to post an answer;
but some questions just seem to get lost in the noise.
John Porter
>
> John Porter wrote:
>
> > madame philosophe wrote:
> > > If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.
> > > why doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
> >
> > This question has already been discussed, and answered.
> > Many times.
> > But you wouldn't know that, would you?
>
> Ha Ha.
What other conclusion could I draw? You have obviously not
read any of the many kilobytes this newsgroup has generated
in the past on this subject.
> > "People are going to come and deposit bodily excretions in your
> > sandbox. Get used to it." No, I'm sorry. There are trends which
> > must be resisted, however futile it turns out to be.
>
> Oh, come ON!!! Are you telling me nebie questions are likened to excrement?
> Shame on you.
Shame on you for thinking that it couldn't be.
This is a cooperative community; we have standards of conduct.
Asking FAQs is like dumping garbage in our playground.
> Paris is a wonderful sandbox and the poo is there to stay.
Not sure what else I can say except clpm isn't Paris.
Maybe clpm is New York City.
They have dog poo laws in New York City.
> I think if Perl could be Paris and I were an expert rather than a just
> a pert, I too would be used to poo.
Hopefully some day soon you *will* be an expert. If so,
don't be surprised to find that your tolerance of litter
has waned a little.
Bart Lateur
>Oh, and Uri, you have "stealth cc's". I've killfiled people for that.
>Please don't do that. (Your mail copy to me wasn't marked as "also
>posted", so I replied to you privately before seeing it in the
>newsgroup. Evil.)
I think that in that case, the e-mail has a "Newsgroups" header. Well,
in a post/e-mail-that-bounced, by me, I could see it in the bounced
message. I can see it in an cc-ed post/e-mail I got from you, too. Dare
I say that it is the general case?
"If in doubt, check the headers!"
Bart.
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> What other conclusion could I draw? You have obviously not
> read any of the many kilobytes this newsgroup has generated
> in the past on this subject.
The only conclusion I can draw is that this person simply must be a
troll.
> Not sure what else I can say except clpm isn't Paris.
The law of the commons could apply here. Scoopers are handy things.
e.
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> "If in doubt, check the headers!"
It's a common courtesy. Who has time to scrutinise the headers for every
bit of mail. Geesh.
e.
Randal Schwartz
Bart> I think that in that case, the e-mail has a "Newsgroups" header. Well,
Bart> in a post/e-mail-that-bounced, by me, I could see it in the bounced
Bart> message. I can see it in an cc-ed post/e-mail I got from you, too. Dare
Bart> I say that it is the general case?
Bart> "If in doubt, check the headers!"
There's no such thing as "Newsgroups" in RFC822... it's quite possible
that I could send mail to you that has "newsgroups:" but does *not* get
posted. Therefore, there's still no clue that "newsgroups" is exactly
equal to "this got posted in news".
If in doubt, get a clue. :)
John Moreno
> Randal Schwartz wrote:
>
> >Oh, and Uri, you have "stealth cc's". I've killfiled people for that.
> >Please don't do that. (Your mail copy to me wasn't marked as "also
> >posted", so I replied to you privately before seeing it in the
> >newsgroup. Evil.)
That's weird - I thought Gnus was configured to do the right thing (i.e.
add the message).
> I think that in that case, the e-mail has a "Newsgroups" header. Well,
> in a post/e-mail-that-bounced, by me, I could see it in the bounced
> message. I can see it in an cc-ed post/e-mail I got from you, too. Dare
> I say that it is the general case?
>
> "If in doubt, check the headers!"
Headers are irrelevant - some newsreaders include "Newsgroups" when they
mean "this is a reply to a message that was posted", others include it
when they mean "this message was also posted". Unless you happen to
know which is which (and that someone hasn't changed the behavior of
their copy), the "Newsgroups" header by itself is of null value (if it's
included along side a Posted-And-Mailed header it has meaning, but then
again in that case you don't have to rely upon the header to tell you
whether it was posted or not do you?).
--
John Moreno
madame philosophe
> but some questions just seem to get lost in the noise.
>
> John "Many Jars" Porter
> baby mother hospital scissors creature judgment butcher engineer
Yeah!!!!
MP
madame philosophe
Craig Berry wrote:
> madame philosophe (m...@mkt2mkt.com) wrote:
> : > "People are going to come and deposit bodily excretions in your
> : > sandbox. Get used to it." No, I'm sorry. There are trends which
> : > must be resisted, however futile it turns out to be.
> :
> : Oh, come ON!!! Are you telling me newbie questions are likened to
> : excrement? Shame on you.
>
madame philosophe
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> ...and what pray tell is a troll?
A troll is someone whom we are not quite sure as to their authenticity
and whom we suspect is deliberately stirring the group. I was laughing
at one point. If you aren't a troll we'll make you an honorary one.
madame 'h. clpm troll' philosophe. :)
e.
James Ludlow
>
> ...and what pray tell is a troll?
"troll" as in "trolling" for attention
It means that the purpose of the post is to incite a flamewar rather
than a rational discussion.
--
James Ludlow (lud...@us.ibm.com)
Disclaimer: This isn't technical support, and all opinions are my own.
Ronald J Kimball
> And so (nearly) was Randal. I believe the original line, spoken by Lord
> Dark Helmet, was "I see your schwartz is as big as mine...but do you know
> how to use it?" :)
Hey, look, we're getting closer to the actual quote with every message!
"I see your schwartz is as big as mine. Now let's see how well you
*handle* it."
--
_ / ' _ / - aka - r...@coos.dartmouth.edu
( /)//)//)(//)/( Ronald J Kimball chip...@m-net.arbornet.org
/ http://www.ziplink.net/~rjk/
"It's funny 'cause it's true ... and vice versa."
Michael J Gebis
}madame philosophe wrote:
}> ...and what pray tell is a troll?
}A troll is someone whom we are not quite sure as to their authenticity
}and whom we suspect is deliberately stirring the group. I was laughing
}at one point. If you aren't a troll we'll make you an honorary one.
}madame 'h. clpm troll' philosophe. :)
Elaine, I checked, and it doesn't appear you have the authority to
bestow honorary troll status. Would you mind checking your settings?
It looks like the server is ok.
--
Mike Gebis ge...@ecn.purdue.edu mge...@eternal.net
Casper Kvan Clausen
> If the people at this group are tired of hearing the same questions.. why
> doesn't someone start a newbie perl newsgroup?
Because that isn't fair. The question should be this:
"If people ask questions that are already in the FAQ, and aren't happy
with just being pointed to the answer contained therein, why don't they
start a newbie perl newsgroup?"
> Or why don't you
> "professionals" migrate to another more stylin' hangout? As the web grows
> there will be more newbies. GET USED TO IT. And don't shoot me for saying so.
There will be more newbies, but that does NOT mean that everybody should
just lean back and go, "well, there'll be more newbies anyway, so we might
as well give up". The very fact that newbies are growing in number makes
it more important than ever that we try to help them in their education. I
think that what you're not understanding is this: Pointing someone to the
FAQ or the docs is _the best possible help_. What RTF(M|FAQ) answers are
doing is helping the newbie not only with his immediate problem, but with
finding solutions to future problems.
> I would love to write a decent Perl book or publish a Perl Faq. When I have a
> free moment I may do it.
May I ask what's wrong with the current FAQ? Also, what kind of book is it
you feel is missing?
> However, what I'm more interested in is solutions than combat. If this is a
> FAQ then let it be one. If it is some sort of clique, get over yourselves!
Well, then I don't understand why you're posting this:
PerlFAQ.pod:=head2 How do I shuffle an array randomly?
It is an FAQ, and was answered as such. No clique involved.
Kvan.
-------Casper Kvan Clausen------ | 'Screw you guys, I'm going home!
----------<c...@dmi.dk>---------- | Talking poo is where I draw the
Lokal 544 | line!'
I do not speak for DMI, just me. | - Eric Cartman.
Russell Schulz
bart.me...@ping.be (Bart Lateur) writes:
>> Oh, and Uri, you have "stealth cc's".
>
> I think that in that case, the e-mail has a "Newsgroups" header.
this is likely, but: it also happens in simple replies (with Larry's
own rn, if memory serves) -- so this is useless data.
> "If in doubt, check the headers!"
no. if cc:ing, add the correct headers:
Posted-And-Mailed: yes
configure your news software to generate it, and your mail software
to look for it.
--
Russell...@locutus.ofB.ORG Shad 86c
I R A Aggie
Clausen <c...@dmi.dk> wrote:
+ On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, madame philosophe wrote:
+ > As the web grows there will be more newbies.
+ There will be more newbies,
Sorry fellow weather-person[*], but I disagree with both you and our
philospher. Newbies eventually grow up, or they give up in frustration.
However, once they've grown up, they're not newbies any more.
Eventually they'll start chanting the mantra: FAQ FAQ FAQ. :)
+ but that does NOT mean that everybody should
+ just lean back and go, "well, there'll be more newbies anyway, so we might
+ as well give up".
*ding*ding*ding* If we give up, we just end up creating a permanent sub-class
called 'newbies' who'll come to expect to get their answers on a silver
plate.
James
I R A Aggie
<m...@mkt2mkt.com> wrote:
+ ...and what pray tell is a troll?
Someone who says something blatantly flammable, knowing full well its
flammable, simply for the sake of getting hot-tempered people to fill
the newsgroup with flames...
James
John Porter
>
> ...and what pray tell is a troll?
I'm certain this is a FAQ; but not of this newsgroup...
John Porter
>
> John Porter wrote:
>
> > What other conclusion could I draw? You have obviously not
> > read any of the many kilobytes this newsgroup has generated
> > in the past on this subject.
>
> The only conclusion I can draw is that this person simply must be a
> troll.
Strange, I don't find that conclusion inescapable.
IMHO, there is a wide world of difference between self-styled
philosophers, and trolls like George Vogon Reese.
madame philosophe
> philospher. Newbies eventually grow up, or they give up in frustration.
> However, once they've grown up, they're not newbies any more.
>
> Eventually they'll start chanting the mantra: FAQ FAQ FAQ. :)
>
> + but that does NOT mean that everybody should
> + just lean back and go, "well, there'll be more newbies anyway, so we might
> + as well give up".
>
> *ding*ding*ding* If we give up, we just end up creating a permanent sub-class
> called 'newbies' who'll come to expect to get their answers on a silver
> plate.
Sure I agree, one should not expect to ask a question and get the answer on a
silver platter.
There's no learning going on there.
But how much jumping through hoops should a person go through as they are
learning Perl?
How much humiliation from just being darned ignorant?
I don't want to be a viking, I just want to ask a question to the right people
in the right way.
Would there be a way of programming the software so that a posting for perl
faqs, and newsgroup protocols always landed at the top of the list of postings?
I see that Tom Phoenix regularly posts a How to use the Perl Faq, but unless you
stumble on it it's hard to find in the muddle!
mp
madame philosophe
> > free moment I may do it.
>
> May I ask what's wrong with the current FAQ? Also, what kind of book is it
> you feel is missing?
One that doesn't assume you are an idiot, or a dummy, and one that doesn's assume
you have a degree in computer progamming and can program in C, C++, etc. etc.
Somewhere in the middle.
>
>
> > However, what I'm more interested in is solutions than combat. If this is a
> > FAQ then let it be one. If it is some sort of clique, get over yourselves!
>
> Well, then I don't understand why you're posting this:
>
> PerlFAQ.pod:=head2 How do I shuffle an array randomly?
>
> It is an FAQ, and was answered as such. No clique involved.
Sorry don't know what you mean. Are you saying that I posted that?
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> Strange, I don't find that conclusion inescapable.
> IMHO, there is a wide world of difference between self-styled
> philosophers, and trolls like George Vogon Reese.
Reese is Reese. I suspect this person is well known to the group and
playing the anti-abigail routine. I could be wrong, but my intuition
says likely. It's entertaining. :)
e.
But my mind was unclear and shaky. Nothing
was happening. Everything was happening. Life
was a stone, grinding and sharpening. - R. Carver -
madame philosophe
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton wrote:
> John Porter wrote:
>
> > Strange, I don't find that conclusion inescapable.
> > IMHO, there is a wide world of difference between self-styled
> > philosophers, and trolls like George Vogon Reese.
I would guess from your post that a George Reese is a meta-troll from
the sound of it.
May I never witness such a person's post.
(wasn't that the name of the guy on original Superman TV Show? I heard
he killed himself because he REALLY thought he was Superman, leaping
buildings and confronting trains, that macho stuff)
> Reese is Reese. I suspect this person is well known to the group and
> playing the anti-abigail routine. I could be wrong, but my intuition
> says likely. It's entertaining. :)
Because I have such respect for your posts Elaine, I would not want to
cause you a reason to question your intuition.
However I would have to say Mr. Jars is probably more correct that I'm a
flamboyant poster, rather than a troll imposter! :)
mp
madame philosophe
OK, so I don't know the particulars of newsreaders... could it be the first message
sent to the newsreader? Or is this really a ridiculous question???
I'm just thinking about making life easier for newbies as well as non-newbies.
(That's not to say that I think my such pondering is the first to contemplate such a
solution to such a problem, I'm sure it has.)
What about implementing a color feature the way the Netscape Mail software can change
the color of a subject header. Then...I did think about the lovely <blink> tag....
:)
Randal Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "madame" == madame philosophe <m...@mkt2mkt.com> writes:
>
> madame> ...still WOULD it be possible to program something that would
> madame> keep the FAQ, and ng proto's at the top of the newsgroup?
>
> What does "top" mean when there are about 60 different newsreaders,
> all with their own policy on sorting?
madame philosophe
>
> madame> What about implementing a color feature the way the Netscape
> madame> Mail software can change the color of a subject header.
> madame> Then...I did think about the lovely <blink> tag.... :)
>
> Really? All my text is in black and white. A color wouldn't help
> here.
Then you should make it blink ;)
mp
Randal Schwartz
madame> I see that Tom Phoenix regularly posts a How to use the Perl
madame> Faq, but unless you stumble on it it's hard to find in the
madame> muddle!
There's not much muddle in comp.lang.perl.announce, in which Tom's
fine post gets posted about once a week or so. (I see to that.)
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> Because I have such respect for your posts Elaine, I would not want to
> cause you a reason to question your intuition.
Oh come now, darling. Intuition isn't fact but feeling with a bit of
instinct. I always reserve the right to be wrong. :)
> However I would have to say Mr. Jars is probably more correct that I'm a
> flamboyant poster, rather than a troll imposter! :)
C'est la vie. If I am wrong, we will buy you a beer at any boston.pm
meeting you should find yourself attending.
e.
Ronald J Kimball
> OK, so I don't know the particulars of newsreaders... could it be the
> first message sent to the newsreader? Or is this really a ridiculous
> question???
Yes, it is a ridiculous question. You can't control how a random news
server handles your message, nor how a random news reader handles it
once it is received.
> I'm just thinking about making life easier for newbies as well as
> non-newbies. (That's not to say that I think my such pondering is the
> first to contemplate such a solution to such a problem, I'm sure it has.)
That's true, and it is a good idea. Unfortunately, there's no way to
implement this particular suggestion
> What about implementing a color feature the way the Netscape Mail software
> can change the color of a subject header. Then...I did think about the
> lovely <blink> tag....
Umm... So you want us to implement a color feature in every news reader
on every hard drive in existence? That is, I'm afraid, even more
ridiculous.
I R A Aggie
<m...@mkt2mkt.com> wrote:
+ Netscape Mail software
This is an oxymoron on an order approaching 'Microsoft Works'...
:)
James
I R A Aggie
<m...@mkt2mkt.com> wrote:
+ But how much jumping through hoops should a person go through as they are
+ learning Perl?
Until the first instinct is to look at the on-line documentation, or
the books immediately at hand. As a random sample, I currently have
the Camel (Programming Perl), the Ram (Perl Cookbook) and the Owl
(Mastering Regular Expressions) books on my computer desk. Oh, and
the Rommel Papers, for a little light reading. I guess you could call
that the Tank Book... :)
+ How much humiliation from just being darned ignorant?
I dunno.
+ I don't want to be a viking, I just want to ask a question to the right people
+ in the right way.
See the quote at the end of my post...
+ I see that Tom Phoenix regularly posts a How to use the Perl Faq, but
+ unless you stumble on it it's hard to find in the muddle!
Dejanews and the various WWW search engines? I'm going to give AltaVista
the following string: "Perl FAQ"...hmmm...found 2559 matches...hmmm...this
one looks interesting...recent date...
<url:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/perl-faq/>
Great Leapin' Camels! There is Tom P's FAQ right at the top!
A new site to add to the arsenal.
James
-------------begin quote---------------
Date: 09 Nov 1995 02:57:30 GMT
From: m...@plover.com (Mark-Jason Dominus)
Subject: Re: system() question
There are a lot of reasons, many of which get repeated over and
over again, many of which don't. Some of the reasons you hear a lot
are: Questions are incoherently phrased. Questions have the form `my
code doesn't work' and don't include the code. Questions include the
code, and it's 200 lines long, and comp.lang.perl is not a debugging
service. Nobody knows the answer to the question. The question is so
badly punctuated that nobody can bear to read it. Questions aer
written by a non-native speaker of English and the native speakers who
are trying to understand it can't. (That's a shame, but it does
happen. I often wish that these people would post in their native
languages. I'd love to see more discussion in languages other than
English. Some Dutch guy tried posting all his comp.lang.c articles in
Dutch a few years ago, and all the Americans flamed him. How
humiliating for me!)
Apart from these oft-mentioned reasons are many others that are
not so often discussed, because anyone who tries to bring them up gets
flamed. But it's the truth: I know the reason I don't answer more
questions is because so many of them questions are so damn stupid.
They're stupid in a lot of different ways, but they're still stupid.
I don't want to suggest that that's why your questions go unanswered.
I don't know what you're asking. No doubt the reason your questions
go unanswered is because they're so deep and interesting that nobody
really knows the answer.
The most common stupid question is the one from someone who has
some high-level problem that they need solved. They have an idea that
they'd like to do it in perl, and they don't really know perl. So
instead of learning perl, they post to comp.lang.perl.misc.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't have any problems answering the
questions of someone who's trying to learn perl. I love THOSE
qusetions. But these people don't seem to be asking useful questions
for that.
Today, for example, I saw a question from a guy who wants to get a
list of hostnames out of nslookup. `How do I do that?' he says. And
it's hard to know what to make of that. What does he mean? Does he
not know how to open a pipe? Is his `open' command failing? What's
going on here? I can't give a useful answer without understanding the
problem. Having your `open' fail is a problem. Wanting to list
hostnames is not a problem; it's a desire.
Here are some similar questions that would have made more sense to me:
1. ``I'm a lazy asshole and I can't be bothered to learn to
program myself, but I know if I post here you'll give me
something for free.''
(OK, fair enough. At least I can send him a rate card.)
2. ``I'm trying to use `open' to talk to nslookup, but...
...here's my code; what's wrong?''
(Good question.)
3. ``I know perl has a `system' command for running programs,
but I can't see how to get my commands into nslookup
once I have run it.''
(Good question.)
4. ``I'm trying to use `getprotobynumber' to talk to nslookup...''
(Good question.)
See, I'm not just biting people's heads off, here. #4 is a good
question, because it gives me something to work with. OK, he has a
very weird idea about interprocess communication, but that's
ignorance, and that's what we're here to correct. He doesn't know
about `open'; I can refer him to the manual.
Here's another example: Some guy wants to assemble a list of email
addresses . ``How do I do that?'' he wants to know. Well, duh. Get a
big pad of paper and read news for a couple days and write down all
the addresses you see. Problem solved. What's it doing in
comp.lang.perl?
Oh, you wanted to do it in perl. Well, I guess I'd open a socket
to the NNTP server and send it some XHDR commands for the `From'
lines. But that's not Perl; you could do that in any language. I
could do it in Bourne Shell for you if I'm allowed to use a little
external thingie to handle the socket parts for me. What's it doing
in comp.lang.perl?
Oh, you wanted us to write the program for you? Wait, let me send
you my rate card.
Someone posted yesterday asking how to get the data from a file
where the start and end of the data is marked by keywords. Same thing
going on here. ``Well, here's how you solve your problem: First you
go take an introductory class in programming and learn to write
programs in some language. Then you go to the bookstore and buy this
book by Wall and Schwartz, it's really good. Read the book carefully
and try out the examples. Then if you still have general questions
like `How do I do this' instead of `I thought that this code would do
X but instead it does Y' you hire a professional to write your program
for you. Or you could just skip right to step 3. Want my rate
card?''
The worst stupid questions are the ones that come from people who
have no business asking them. The most perfect example of this that I
could have imagined was in comp.unix.questions a couple of years ago.
Some guy came and asked how you could tell if a file is a hard link.
My jaw flapped open and it's stayed open since then. I couldn't have
been any more stumped if he'd asked why Bodhidharma came from the
West. What do you say to this guy? Do you tell him the truth, that
all files are hard links, that even symbolic links are hard links?
He's not going to understand you; you might as well keep your mouth
shut. Do you tell him the truth, that the answer won't do him any
good because he doesn't know what a hard link is, so why did he bother
asking in the first place? No, that'll just make him mad. I followed
that message for the next couple weeks, and nobody said anything.
What could you say? The guy had no business asking the question and
no use for the answer. Maybe the right answer would have been to cut
off his finger or something. I dunno.
Some questions get ignored because they're boring. Someone asked
today how to compare two variables (I assumme he means the contents of
those variables) to see if they're exactly the same. You've gotta be
in an awfully good mood to take the time to answer that. Maybe
someone will. Maybe I will.
If I answer that one today, maybe he'll be back tomorrow asking
how to check to see if two variables contain different values. Maybe
I won't. What I find incredible is that if you tell these people to
go read the manual and come back in two weeks, you sometimes get
jumped on for not being helpful to beginners. Bah. If everyone told
these people to go read the manual, they'd eventually figure out that
that's what you have to do ,and then I wouldn't have to spend so much
of my life dealing with incompetent programmers.
Some questions are logically nonsensical because the querent
thinks they know more than they do. A lot of these have the form
``How do I use X to accomplish Y?'' There's nothing wrong with this,
except that sometimes X is a chocolate-covered banana and Y is the
integration of European currency systems. I always get stuck on
these, probably because I can't get rid of the idea that the person
really has a good reason for wanting to use X. I know a half-dozen
easy simple ways to accomplish Y, but I can't imagine what X has to do
with it. This is a problem for me in my day job, too. Clients are
always saying to me ``We want to use product X to do multimedia
development on the world-wide web,'' and all I can think is ``Well,
gee, what would you want to go and do that for?'' Sometimes it turns
out that they want to do it because they want to impress the
manufacturers of X, and I don't work on those jobs.
The flip side of this is a questions like ``I want to accomplish
X, but I don't want to use Y. What can I use instead?'' Which,
again, is sometimes reasonable, and then sometimes X is closing a
filehandle and Y is the `close' function.
The questions I like the best are the ones that go like this:
``I want to accomplish X.
I thought that the following code fragment would do it:
...
But instead it does Y.
Why is that?''
This one is also pretty good:
``I want to accomplish X.
I thought I might be able to use facility Y.
But Y doesn't seem like it's quite right,
because of Z.
What should I use instead of Y, or how can I overcome Z?''
When I ignore these, it's usually because I don't know the answer.
There were an awful lot of them today. It makes me very happy.
There you go; a 160-line dissertation on why questions go unanswered.
Now don't let me hear you saying nobody ever answers your questions.
madame philosophe
Date: 09 Nov 1995 02:57:30 GMT
From: m...@plover.com (Mark-Jason Dominus)
Subject: Re: system() question
> There you go; a 160-line dissertation on why questions go unanswered.
> Now don't let me hear you saying nobody ever answers your questions.
Hey thanks alot ! I found this email extremely helpful.
Perhaps I will be able to ask more intelligent questions because of it. And I'm
being sincere!
mp
Casper Kvan Clausen
[">>" is me, and ">>>" is madame]
> > May I ask what's wrong with the current FAQ? Also, what kind of book is it
> > you feel is missing?
>
> One that doesn't assume you are an idiot, or a dummy, and one that doesn's assume
> you have a degree in computer progamming and can program in C, C++, etc. etc.
> Somewhere in the middle.
A Perl book for non-programmers, which takes its audience seriously.
This would seem to fit the Llama book. [Disclaimer: I did not learn Perl
via the Llama book, so this is based on hearsay].
> Sorry don't know what you mean. Are you saying that I posted that?
No. I thought you were referring to someone else's posting, and were
saying that one should let FAQs be FAQs in general. Since that was exactly
what had been done with the shuffle-posting, I was somewhat surprised.
Now on to more interesting things, since this discussion seems to be done.
Kvan, glad it is.
Randal Schwartz
Casper> A Perl book for non-programmers, which takes its audience seriously.
Casper> This would seem to fit the Llama book. [Disclaimer: I did not
Casper> learn Perl via the Llama book, so this is based on hearsay].
No. The Llama is not designed for non-programmers. I specifically
presume at least an understanding of basic concepts (variable, array,
subroutine, algorithms). Otherwise, the book would have been about
twice as long (I've written programming for non-programmers before...
and it gets more wordy :).
Having said that, I've heard of a number of people that have
successfully used the llama to learn Perl as their first programming
language. I can only presume that they were naturally talented or
perhaps a programmer in a previous lifetime or something. :-)
David Adler
<fl_a...@thepentagon.com> wrote:
>the Camel (Programming Perl), the Ram (Perl Cookbook) and the Owl
>(Mastering Regular Expressions) books on my computer desk. Oh, and
>the Rommel Papers, for a little light reading. I guess you could call
>that the Tank Book... :)
For heaven's sake, don't give O'Reilly any ideas! :-)
Dave, waiting for the Brannock Device book...
--
David H. Adler - <d...@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"That's one of the tragedies of this life: that the men most in need
of a beating up are always enormous." - John D. Hackensacker III
madame philosophe
What books would you recommend for intelligent independently studious non-programming
programmers??
Best,
madame p
pa...@hansenhanley.demon.co.uk
wrote:
>I'm sure there are a lot of people reluctant to post questions here
>afraid of having "RTFM" yelled in their face each time. I'm not an
>expert myselfe and I would really like to know if there are any
>discussion forums etc where it is actually legal to ask questions that
>might be of a basic nature to some. If you know about something like
>that, please let me know and me and probably a lot of other will go away
>and leave you guys alone.
>
>Hauk Langlo
Hauk, let me put you right
Firstly, you are at an immediate disadvantage being from Norway -
everyone will automatically assume you are a troll
B. you are posting to comp.lang.perl.cosy.clique, where the habit is
not to answer a question, but to explain why the question shouldn't
have been asked in the first place, preferably by complaining at great
length about waste of bandwidth, avoiding direct mention of Perl in
preference to superannuated American film directors of whom you may
not have heard, telling you what a great favour they are doing you by
discouraging you, while at the same time trying to develop a
personality.
iii. when someone responds "just my 2 cents worth", it is best to
regard this as an overvaluation.
Fourthly, you need to keep a keen eye open for the logical
inconsistency. Now I'm not a professor of logic (well I am actually),
but when someone says "I'm sorry, but people who ask FAQs are either
stupid or rude" you have to ask yourself whether they've considered
that Qs are only FAQs because someone has been stupid or rude enough
to A them F. In fact you might consider that since the F element is
relative, it is your duty to keep asking FAQs on an F basis, in order
to keep them in the canon. An alternative strategy would be to ask
lots of non-FA Qs, so that the current FAQs become relatively less F,
drop out of the FAQ document through lack of use, and you can then hit
the group with your ex-FA Q.
To sum up, er... learn Java.
(anyone any thoughts on which is better, Perl or Java?)
-paul
Randal Schwartz
madame> See I knew the llama book was not for non-programmers.
madame> What books would you recommend for intelligent independently studious non-programming
madame> programmers??
bleh. This was stealth-cc'ed to me. And I already answered it
in email now.
So for those of you that killfile people that stealth-cc, time
to nail m...@mkt2mkt.com as one of those.
<sigh>
madame... please STOP that.
madame philosophe
if I have done a stealth cc it was an accident. Please accept my apology, as I know not how I
did it.
I'm using Netscape Mail so if anyone would like to *PLONK* me over the head and tell me what I
am doing incorrectly PLEASE do!
mp
Randal Schwartz wrote:
> bleh. This was stealth-cc'ed to me. And I already answered it
> in email now.
>
> So for those of you that killfile people that stealth-cc, time
> to nail m...@mkt2mkt.com as one of those.
>
> <sigh>
>
> madame... please STOP that.
--
-madame philosophe
"I am not a troll!"
- famous last words before the
guillotine of comp.lang.perl.misc
She's here to save the world from herself...
I R A Aggie
<m...@mkt2mkt.com> wrote:
+ See I knew the llama book was not for non-programmers.
You're not a programmer, but want to learn Perl?
Ok. Become a programmer, first. Then learn Perl, at which point either
the Llama or the Camel may be suitable.
Perl can be a hideous death-trap to the unwary, the unskilled, or the
inexperienced. It can also be a thing of beauty.
James
I R A Aggie
pa...@hansenhanley.demon.co.uk wrote:
+ To sum up, er... learn Java.
So, the java crowd has a higher tolerance of FAQ's?
James - not for long...
madame philosophe
> inexperienced. It can also be a thing of beauty.
>
> James
I would prefer to be a thing of beauty!!!
or rather $beauty->param('madame');
madame philosophe
Is this OK???
PS I have also set my browser to wrap at 60 chars. Is this working?
Randal Schwartz wrote:
>
> >>>>> "madame" == madame philosophe <m...@mkt2mkt.com> writes:
>
> madame> As I wrote Randal directly,
>
> and oddly enough, marked the *NEWS* but not the *MAIL*!
>
> Ugh. Please learn NOT to send mail that is also posted unless
> the MAIL is marked that it is also POSTED.
>
> <sigh>
Randal Schwartz
madame> As I wrote Randal directly,
and oddly enough, marked the *NEWS* but not the *MAIL*!
Ugh. Please learn NOT to send mail that is also posted unless
the MAIL is marked that it is also POSTED.
<sigh>
--
Randal Schwartz
Russ> [...] and Perl isn't that good of a language to learn how to program in
Russ> (yes, I know some people with strong qualifications disagree with me on
Russ> that score...).
You won't find me disagreeing. Maybe that means I don't have strong
qualifications. :)
Mark-Jason Dominus
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>Perl isn't that good of a language to learn how to program in
Really? Who disagrees?
I ask because I've never actually seen anyone express that opinion,
and I've often wanted to try it and see what the result was.
Casper Kvan Clausen
You can do a search for "learning programming" on DN, with the author
field set to k...@forum.swarthmore.edu, who started a thread on this in
January.
To sum up, my personal feeling is that Perl is as good a language as any
to learn first. Using -w and strict, it really isn't ill-behaved at all.
That said, I kind of like the idea of starting off people with a
functional language. ML, for instance, is very clear and suitable for
learning programming.
Kvan.
-------Casper Kvan Clausen------ | 'I haven't seen an Englishman take a
----------<c...@dmi.dk>---------- | blow like that since Hugh Grant!
Lokal 544 |
I do not speak for DMI, just me. | - Football announcer.
Joergen W. Lang
> On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:31:26 -0500, I R A Aggie
> <fl_a...@thepentagon.com> wrote:
>
> >the Camel (Programming Perl), the Ram (Perl Cookbook) and the Owl
> >(Mastering Regular Expressions) books on my computer desk. Oh, and
> >the Rommel Papers, for a little light reading. I guess you could call
> >that the Tank Book... :)
>
> For heaven's sake, don't give O'Reilly any ideas! :-)
>
> Dave, waiting for the Brannock Device book...
mind you ! there's _germans_ reading this thread ;-))
Joergen
--
To reply by email please remove _munged_ from address Thanks !
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything is possible - even sometimes the impossible"
HOELDERLIN EXPRESS - "Touch the void"
Greg Bacon
Randal Schwartz <mer...@stonehenge.com> writes:
: >>>>> "Russ" == Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> writes:
:
: Russ> [...] and Perl isn't that good of a language to learn how to program in
: Russ> (yes, I know some people with strong qualifications disagree with me on
: Russ> that score...).
:
: You won't find me disagreeing. Maybe that means I don't have strong
: qualifications. :)
...or that you're just affirming the consequent. :-)
Greg
--
Improve the postal system -- mail their pay checks!
Greg Bacon
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> writes:
: Perl not being a good first language seems practically self-evident to me,
: so I'm not sure how well I can argue the point. Of course, I personally
: followed the semi-traditional programming learning track of the 80s (BASIC
: to Pascal to C to a wide smattering of stuff ranging from LISP to shell to
: COBOL, and then finally Perl).
I can see both sides of the argument. One side is that you don't learn
to change your car's oil by hiring a mechanic to do it for you. The
other side is that Perl's handling of the details allows the student to
focus on the problem itself and not tangentially related implementation
issues.
In my experience, people have the most trouble in introductory
programming classes because they aren't accustomed to thinking in the
small steps that most traditional teaching languages mandate. It seems
to me that Perl would be nice as a teaching language because it would
allow novices to think in steps of a more natural size. Larry designed
Perl to make programming easier for programmers, right?
There are lots of reasons why C is a non-ideal teaching languages, but
it seems like most CS curricula use it. (Of course, this may well be
an argument against using C. :-) There are even some that have switched
and are switching to Java. I suppose the desire is to optimize for
future usefulness.
I've said before (with mjd sounding approval--I think merlyn also
expressed a similar notion) that Perl could work well as a teaching
language provided that the instructor is willing to use a subset of
Perl (which is Officially Ok by Larry :-) and tell the occasional
lie (i.e. this is The Way to do it). We could test this hypothesis
if someone were to write an introduction to programming textbook that
used Perl (or at least a CS-ly pure subset) and the publisher were
able to convince a few universities to try it out. Given the proper
combination of author and instructor, it could work well.
Any takers? :-)
Greg
--
Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed
regularly and for the same reason.
-- Gerry Brooks
Mike West
Casper Kvan Clausen, c...@dmi.dk writes:
>ML, for instance, is very clear and suitable for learning programming.
"ML" ? Microsoft Lingo ? Multi Level? Mini Lisp ? Macho Language ?
Must be a TLA. (two letter acronym, not to be confused with a
TLA, a three letter acronym...)
John Porter
>
> I would prefer to be a thing of beauty!!!
> or rather $beauty->param('madame');
Or rather,
$madame = new Beauty;
How about;
my @affections;
tie @affections, 'Beauty';
tied(@affections)->isa('Joy') while 1;
--
John "Many Jars" Porter
baby mother hospital scissors creature judgment butcher engineer
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> See I knew the llama book was not for non-programmers.
The Llama book is about as simple as it gets. Besides, in the big
picture, programming is no different than any other discipline. How did
you learn anything that you know which you taught yourself? I took years
of piano lessons but it was my own interest in the music which made the
difference between mediocre and concert level. The book is but one tool
among many which you can use to teach yourself.
> What books would you recommend for intelligent independently studious
> non-programming programmers??
Intelligent independently studious people never need to ask that
question.
e.
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> This was sent to discussion only...
Netscape newsreader is evil and will not do this as supercite will. Some
people are more sensitive about this than others and most prefer not to
be mailed at all.
> PS I have also set my browser to wrap at 60 chars. Is this working?
ick. 74 is standard.
e.
Abigail
<URL:news:6vvqc6$3t3$4...@info.uah.edu>:
++ In article <yl7ly55...@windlord.stanford.edu>,
++ Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> writes:
++ : Perl not being a good first language seems practically self-evident to me,
++ : so I'm not sure how well I can argue the point. Of course, I personally
++ : followed the semi-traditional programming learning track of the 80s (BASIC
++ : to Pascal to C to a wide smattering of stuff ranging from LISP to shell to
++ : COBOL, and then finally Perl).
++
++ I can see both sides of the argument. One side is that you don't learn
++ to change your car's oil by hiring a mechanic to do it for you. The
++ other side is that Perl's handling of the details allows the student to
++ focus on the problem itself and not tangentially related implementation
++ issues.
I disagree. Perl gives you a whole bunch of tools to use, but that only
confuses the novice programmer: he doesn't know what the pick. Knowing
which tool to pick is more important than the implementation of the details.
++ In my experience, people have the most trouble in introductory
++ programming classes because they aren't accustomed to thinking in the
++ small steps that most traditional teaching languages mandate. It seems
++ to me that Perl would be nice as a teaching language because it would
++ allow novices to think in steps of a more natural size. Larry designed
++ Perl to make programming easier for programmers, right?
^^^^^^^^^^^
I think that says it all. Perl is to make programming easier for
*programmers*. People learning how to program aren't programmers
yet. You can make a truck whose design goal is to make it easier to
drive for drivers - that doesn't mean said truck is ideal to take
driving lessons in.
++ There are lots of reasons why C is a non-ideal teaching languages, but
++ it seems like most CS curricula use it. (Of course, this may well be
++ an argument against using C. :-) There are even some that have switched
++ and are switching to Java. I suppose the desire is to optimize for
++ future usefulness.
I'd prefer using Java over C, but neither would be my choice. I would
go for either something from the school of Wirth (Pascal, Modula), LPC
or maybe even some pseudo code.
Abigail
--
perl -we '$@="\145\143\150\157\040\042\112\165\163\164\040\141\156\157\164".
"\150\145\162\040\120\145\162\154\040\110\141\143\153\145\162".
"\042\040\076\040\057\144\145\166\057\164\164\171";`$@`'
Tad McClellan
: In article <ylww658...@windlord.stanford.edu>,
: Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
: >(yes, I know some people with strong qualifications disagree with me on
: >that score...).
: Really? Who disagrees?
: I ask because I've never actually seen anyone express that opinion,
: and I've often wanted to try it and see what the result was.
Teaching Perl as a first language is high on my list of
"projects yearning to be free".
Even though I know that it is a Bad Idea!
It is clear to me, from past threads on this subject, that the consensus,
which I agree with, is that Perl is not a good first language.
OTOH, some folks just will not learn programming before learning
Perl.
They just won't.
Even though lots of qualified people agree that it is a Bad Idea,
they still won't.
If the "qualified people" agree on this pseudo code:
if (you_want_to_be_a_good_programmer || expect_to_get_paid_for_programming)
{learn programming with some other language first}
else
{learn programming while learning Perl}
Then there are a large, and growing, number of folks in the
else clause. ;-)
They just want to spiffy up their web page, or tweek some reports,
or any of the other myriad things that Perl is good for.
But they are not willing to invest in a real "program of study"
on how to program.
The demand is there despite it being a bad thing.
--
Tad McClellan SGML Consulting
ta...@metronet.com Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
madame philosophe
I suppose that would make me an object of the beauty class?
I would much rather be a param than an instance, however.
It's more influential isn't it? Besides who likes to be treated like an object?
:-)
John Porter wrote:
>
> madame philosophe wrote:
> >
> > I would prefer to be a thing of beauty!!!
> > or rather $beauty->param('madame');
>
> Or rather,
> $madame = new Beauty;
>
> How about;
> my @affections;
> tie @affections, 'Beauty';
> tied(@affections)->isa('Joy') while 1;
>
In keeping with the topic...
So I guess that an instance of Beauty inherits from Joy as long as @affections
is true.
Is this right?
> --
> John "Many Jars" Porter
--
------
madame philosophe
"I am not a troll!"
- Famous last words before
John Porter
"The programming language ML was originally designed for use as the
metalanguage in the Logic for Computable Functions (LCF) verification
system.... ML is a strongly typed, functional programming language..."
ML Primer, by Ryan Stansifer; Prentice-Hall, 1992.
Standard ML -- Project Fox at CMU:
http://foxnet.cs.cmu.edu/sml.html
Standard ML of New Jersey:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/what/smlnj/
CAML:
http://caml.inria.fr/
OCAML, an object-oriented variant:
http://pauillac.inria.fr/ocaml/
--
John "Many Jars" Porter
madame philosophe
This is the problem, if you haven't figured it out, oh wise one!
> Besides, in the big picture, programming is no different than any other
> discipline.
I disagree. Rarely is it that lovers of a discipline are so protective to newcomers.
Rarely do they swat the novices round the head neck and shoulders just because
they can.
Maybe if you were joining an abbey during the middle ages, but that's another kind
of discipline that I care not for.
> How did you learn anything that you know which you taught
> yourself?
By doing it, and not being afraid to experiment, which means to fail. I
by my own doing am not afraid to be a failed programmer. It's how I learn to
good at anything, since you can only get better from there.
I took years of piano lessons but it was my own interest in
> the music which made the difference between mediocre and concert level.
Are you a concert pianist?
>The book is but one tool among many which you can use to teach yourself.
>
Duh. If you've heard of user-interface, then you should understand
to what topic I am addressing.
> > What books would you recommend for intelligent independently studious
> > non-programming programmers??
>
> Intelligent independently studious people never need to ask that
> question.
I think you mean intelligent independently studious people who are full of themselves
need never ask that question.
Tad McClellan
: The demand is there despite it being a bad thing.
It now occurs to me that Bill got rich from such a thing... ;-)
Elaine -HappyFunBall- Ashton
> This is the problem, if you haven't figured it out, oh wise one!
By simple, I mean as informative and as useful in as few pages as
needed. There is a 'Perl5 for Dummies' if you need it.
> I disagree. Rarely is it that lovers of a discipline are so protective to
> newcomers.
*bzzzzt* Like anything, including life, there is a caste and a status.
Ever try being the middle-class girl with a non-pedigreed horse in
competitive equestrian sports? Vicious. Makes these jerky-boyz look like
a walk in the park.
> Rarely do they swat the novices round the head neck and shoulders just because
> they can.
You must live a fairly sheltered life.
> Maybe if you were joining an abbey during the middle ages, but that's another kind
> of discipline that I care not for.
Nuns have the same kind of discipline with the exception perhaps of
forgoing the carnal. Admirable.
> By doing it, and not being afraid to experiment, which means to fail. I
> by my own doing am not afraid to be a failed programmer. It's how I learn to
> good at anything, since you can only get better from there.
To try is not to fail, you succeed by your very doing. What is it to
'win'? Learning anything is a win no matter the relative proficiency.
> Are you a concert pianist?
Competed for a seat on the same symphony my sister played for. Lost.
Became a chemist instead with a penchant for Russian Romantics and Jazz
:) I do a wicked Tony Bennett impression at parties with a piano.
> Duh. If you've heard of user-interface, then you should understand
> to what topic I am addressing.
Well, duh, if you were reading, my implicit point here was, why are you
looking for something to speak the answer to you? There is nothing in
this world that will teach you anything if you are not willing to put a
bit of yourself into it. 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't
make him drink.' Make your own interface. Bend a spoon with your mind.
:)
> I think you mean intelligent independently studious people who are full of
> themselves need never ask that question.
No. Your sentence was an oxymoron. Intelligent. _Independently_
studious. These are not the types of people who ask a million people who
has the answer. Sometimes they create their own. And most of them are
full of themselves and much more.
> "I am not a troll!"
You are or I'm not Martha Stewart. :)
e.
Kevin Reid
> <snip "160-line dissertation on why questions go unanswered">
I wish everybody had to read that before they could post to clp.misc.
clp.moderated had a good idea there (that people have to register before
they can post, and the registration form has lots of useful information
about where to find help for Perl). Would it be possible to do something
similar with clp.misc (not moderated, but people have to register before
posting)?
--
Kevin Reid. | Macintosh.
"I'm me." | Think different.