14 year Programmer Will Work For Food...
Lawson English
I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
job.
Background:
Started Pascal classes in 1984. Chuck Allison of the C/C++ Journal was one
of my Pascal teachers -he remembers me from 15 years ago as one of his top
students, if that says anything. Learned C in 1986. First C projects
included a speedup utility for Apple //e disk-copying using //e Hi-res
graphics card memory, if present, followed by writing C interfaces to Apple
//e AppleSoft ROM graphics calls. Used both 6502 assembler and HyperC for
these.
Wrote utilities, desk accessories and applications in C and 68K assembler on
Mac+ & patched the Mac ROM to circumvent a flaw in the Mac+ SCSI
implementation that prevented a 68020 accelerator board from using a SCSI
hard drive.
Wrote a writing tutor for University of Arizona prof that used Think
[Object] Pascal and the TCL (Think Class Libraries).
Wrote a 24-bit TIFF reader using CodeWarrior C++ and PowerPlant framework
and tested convolution algorithms in C and 604 PowerPC assembler on PowerMac
9500. Used monitor registers to examine CPU behavior in greater detail.
Wrote a HyperTalk interface for Apple's QuickDraw GX graphics library using
C.
Done smattering of web-based stuff such as PHP=>PHP3/mySQL=>postgreSQL
translation.
Helped various people in various ways to enhance/debug/etc Mac-based
projects:
Know Pre-MacOS X well enough that I can diagnosis some problems over the
telephone and fix them (e.g., a snail-slow animation on an LC II was caused
by an improperly optimized CopyBit call. The fix was to "put zeros in every
parameter where it made sense, thereby avoiding pixel-per-pixel color-space
translation -speeded it up by a factor of about 20-30).
A guy from Disney Imagineering (@Squeak Central) asked me to look at the Mac
Mozilla code to see if I could tell why the Squeak (SmallTalk) browser
plug-in wasn't working right on the Mac. The problem wasn't with Netscape,
but with the fact that the Mac implementation of Squeak was using the full
path-name every time a shared library was evoked, thereby triggering a
little known feature of the Shared Library Manager that would initialize a
new copy of the plug-in, rather than using the copy already loaded (I didn't
find that, he did, but we both kicked ourselves over missing it).
Etc.
I'm currently enhancing C++ skills, Java, CGI, HTML, Python, Perl, SQL, etc.
Learning Visual C++, Delphi, generic Windows programming, etc. Have a
quadruple-boot 7300/180 using MacOS 8.6, 9.0, MacOS X and Linux. Learning
Apache administration in Lunix. Learning NeXT technologies on MacOS X (DR4
since the 7300 won't boot the beta). Learning Squeak Smalltalk.
Looking for ANY programming job in the Tucson, AZ area in the Will Work for
Food wage-range. Will accept Phoenix area jobs if they pay considerably more
(I need to commute to Tucson to see my family at least once a week).
My price range should be indicated by the title of the article.
I've interviewed with people who seem impressed by my background and then
send me form letters informing me (after meeting in several interviews) that
my initial answer to initial question disqualifies me (e.g., no embedded
systems experience, AFTER an engineer let slip that they were willing to
train).
I've informed total idiots that rather than attempting to port a multi-media
conversion app from Windows to the Mac for a ludicrous $4000, I'd rewrite
Apple's QuickTime sample translation code for free to accomplish the same
thing in exchange for a reference and had them turn me down! (never called
them an idiot to their face, mind you).
I've had CENSORED engineers at CENSORED company tell me that they needed me
to maintain a driver-control/test app in Visual C rather than let me rework
the GUI in C++ while keeping the driver portion in C "because "C++ can't run
drivers fast enough" -they later informed the headhunter that I obviously
didn't understand C very well (presumably because I informed them that my
background in C Windows programming wasn't good enough to maintain and
extend the project in that language while my ability to handle C++ GUIs
would allow me to factor the app appropriately into GUI and C driver code
for easy maintenance).
I've had idiots turn me down for a OOP/D/A position because I didn't know
how to diagram an algorithm to reverse a singly-linked list, even though
I've had over 10 years (off and on) experience with O-O, and they were
looking for an O-O analyst to help them translate a project from PHP into
Java (I'm systematically applying my chess problem visualization skills to
learn to visualize the entire problem set of Sedgewick so someone can't pull
THAT CRAP excuse on me ever again).
I had one company turn me down for a Web Objects position because "I didn't
know Java well enough."
Is it just me, or are Tucson area employers really this stupid?
14 years with procedural languages (Pascal and C). 14 years with Mac
programming. 4 different assembly languages (VAX, 6502, 68K, PowerPC). 10+
years with object-oriented technologies (using Think Pascal and Think C &
CodeWarrior C++). Less than 1 year with C++, although is that REALLY an
issue given my OOP experience?
My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
than they are.
[maybe I can get a job in India...]
--
Taught myself Calculus when I was 15 and I can't get a job programming
anything in a cowboy town.
--
Steve Wilbur
<eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
your problem is obviously your attitude....but i'm probably an idiot
too, right?
> Is it just me, or are Tucson area employers really this stupid?
> 14 years with procedural languages (Pascal and C). 14 years with Mac
> programming. 4 different assembly languages (VAX, 6502, 68K, PowerPC). 10+
> years with object-oriented technologies (using Think Pascal and Think C &
> CodeWarrior C++). Less than 1 year with C++, although is that REALLY an
> issue given my OOP experience?
> My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
> hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
> than they are.
Aaron Robinson
i just turned 19 in september, and have coded since about age 13. learned
assembly c++ perl java etc by myself over the past few years. but rather
than shove this in people's faces, i just put some samples on my resume and
have a nice chat with interviewers. i'm leaving in january to make $25 / hr
full time. @ age 19, there's a great chance i will scale up and my goal is
80k/year by the time i'm 21. I see this as very realizable. the only
explanation why you can't do the same is your attitude.
my point is - don't let your ego take over when looking for a job. realize
that you knowing all that stuff doesn't make you 'better' than anyone, it
just means you have experience in those areas. they will respect this and
hire you if you don't shove it in their faces and act like a jerk.
"Lawson English" <eng...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:B63DA81D.DFFA%eng...@primenet.com...
Alex Molochnikov
front. But it appears to me that you are trying to hit a very broad range of
targets in enhancing your programming skills, and as the result are getting
a very thin coverage of all of them. This may be entirely untrue, but if I
got this impression, so would others, including your prospective employers.
It may be better to select a few well-defined areas and zero in on them,
leaving the rest of your programming experience out of the resume, to be
brought up only if necessary during the interview. Job assignments usually
require a relatively narrow range of well-mastered skills, so most of the
time your broad experience does not carry much of a value to the employers,
but produces a counter-productive effect.
Alex Molochnikov
Gestalt Corporation
Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:B63DA81D.DFFA%eng...@primenet.com...
> This is getting ridiculous!
>
> I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
> job.
>
> Background:
>
> Started Pascal classes in 1984. Chuck Allison of the C/C++ Journal was one
> of my Pascal teachers -he remembers me from 15 years ago as one of his top
> students, if that says anything. Learned C in 1986. First C projects
> included a speedup utility for Apple file://e disk-copying using file://e
Hi-res
> graphics card memory, if present, followed by writing C interfaces to
Apple
> file://e AppleSoft ROM graphics calls. Used both 6502 assembler and HyperC
Lawson English
In fact, I don't "shove it in people's faces" -I'm a rather polite sort of
fellow, in person, and have friends of all ages and sexes and religions and
races and so on. I get along with "dumpster divers" and bishops, cops and
robbers, etc.
And my attitude, as revealed in this article, is the result of being nearly
3x your age and not being able to find work at 1/2 the wage that you just
quoted, even though I have been in the computer business (started as an
operator in the USAF) several years longer than you have been alive.
in article 8v9oj6$qmo$1...@slate.INS.CWRU.Edu, Aaron Robinson at
ac...@po.cwru.edu wrote on 11/19/00 7:36 PM:
> i agree with the other posts - watch your attitude.
>
> i just turned 19 in september, and have coded since about age 13. learned
> assembly c++ perl java etc by myself over the past few years. but rather
> than shove this in people's faces, i just put some samples on my resume and
> have a nice chat with interviewers. i'm leaving in january to make $25 / hr
> full time. @ age 19, there's a great chance i will scale up and my goal is
> 80k/year by the time i'm 21. I see this as very realizable. the only
> explanation why you can't do the same is your attitude.
>
> my point is - don't let your ego take over when looking for a job. realize
> that you knowing all that stuff doesn't make you 'better' than anyone, it
> just means you have experience in those areas. they will respect this and
> hire you if you don't shove it in their faces and act like a jerk.
--
Reform is a state of mind.
Vote with your mind, from your heart.
Vote Reform, vote Hagelin 2000.
Lawson English Tucson, Arizona
--
Lawson English
rr_...@TakeThisOut.hotmail wrote on 11/19/00 7:36 PM:
>
> [maybe I can get a job in India...]. I will take it for a joke. I have to.
Yeah. Probably in bad taste, sorry. One of the places I applied to had a
very competent Indian working for them, but he wasn't allowed to work on DoD
work due to his nationality and H-1B status. I indicated that I was quite
willing to learn from him or anyone else who could teach me what I needed to
know to do whatever kind of work they had in mind -they indicated that they
WERE willing to train in-house for various tasks and later informed me that
they weren't interested because I wasn't experienced in what they had
already indicated they were willing to train in-house.
--
"It is very material that order, decency and
regularity, be preserved in a dignified public body."
-Thomas Jefferson, 1812, _A Manual of Parliamentary Practice_
"Who cares?" -Patrick J. Buchanan, 2000, Buchanan Reform Party Convention
--
Lawson English
dontb...@ijustfhere.com at dontb...@ijustfhere.com wrote on 11/19/00
6:47 PM:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:54:05 -0700, Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
>> hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
>> than they are.
>
> The problem is that you aren't charging enough. [and other stereotypical
material from Dilbert]
What's frightening is that I've heard from others that this Dilbertesque
stuff really works, but I'm more interested in learning to do good work than
simply get paid. I'd rather work at McDonalds then fake my way.
Thanks for the advice, however. If I'm ever in a managerial position, I'll
keep an eye out for you...
dontb...@ijustfhere.com
wrote:
>My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
>hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
>than they are.
The problem is that you aren't charging enough. If you ask for $10 per hour,
employers assume that's all you're worth, but they want someone worth more.
You should wear fancy clothes to the interview and smile and nod and say yes
to every question they ask. Follow that simple advice, and before you know
it you will have dozens of offers for $75 per hour or more. It also helps to
have some good references. Be nice to your references so they will lie for
you like most good references do. And don't worry about how well you can
actually do the work, because most employers don't have a clue about how hard
it is or how much time it should take. They only judge you by how hard you
look like you're working, which is very easy to fake, especially if you aim
your monitor at a wall to keep it invisible and spend your time playing
fast-action games that make you look very busy. You have to write weekly
status reports, but those are easy to fake too. You can spend a few days
writing one very long weekly status report, and from then on just make minor
changes to it every week before submitting it. When it comes time for a
salary review, they look at the total file size of all your weekly status
reports combined. Before you know it, you will be the manager of the
software department, and no longer have any need to learn programming.
Raghav
I am surprised that a person with so many years of experience finds it
difficult to find a reasonably well paid job. Agreed that today age does
matters. But, you have enough experience to be a good leader and mentor for
a team of say 50 people. If you do really believe in yourself, why not try a
venture on your own. I know it's easier said than done. But why not try
once.
As you know a lot of systems were upgraded to latest platforms bcos there
were less people who can understand the whole code in older platforms
(forget changing the code to make it compliant). Veterans like you would
have made a huge difference in such cases.
[maybe I can get a job in India...]. I will take it for a joke. I have to.
With best wishes
Raghav.
Kaz Kylheku
>
>I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
>job.
I'd normally flame someone for starting a crossposed crap thread like this, but
I know that Lawson English has been around Usenet for quite a long time and
(probably) knows better than to do something like this. So I suspect that this
may be a clever forgery. Please no more reponses!
Courageous
>look like you're working, which is very easy to fake, especially if you aim
While I realize you were being a bit sarcastic, I should like to point out
that jaded old computer jockeys like me are quite hip to the whole aim-
the-monitor-away-from-the-door trick. I'm immediately suspicious of any
one who does this and watch their productivity carefully.
Anyway, that aside, you're quite right. He should charge more, and assume
that he can do the work. From his description, he should be fine on any task,
even with languages he doesn't know.
C//
Tim Hockin
:> [maybe I can get a job in India...]. I will take it for a joke. I have to.
: Yeah. Probably in bad taste, sorry. One of the places I applied to had a
: very competent Indian working for them, but he wasn't allowed to work on DoD
After working in silicon valley (where I, as a caucasian, am not in the
popular majority) for 1.5 years I have a whole different spin than I used
to on racial bias.
Some of the VERY VERY best people I know (EE, software, systems, managers,
etc) are Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, San Salvadoran etc. Anyone
who believes whites own the tech market ought to try hiring people in
silicon valley.
OT, sorry..
--
Tim Hockin
tho...@isunix.it.ilstu.edu
This program has been brought to you by the language C and the number F.
ZZ
Raghav
No Problem. It's alright.
:-)
Cheers
Raghav
"Tim Hockin" <tho...@isunix.it.ilstu.edu> wrote in message
news:8vaekm$btt$1...@news.ilstu.edu...
Homey
Straight up.
Say what they want to hear.. put down on paper what they want to see. If you
KNOW you can back up what you put down.. go for it.
:)
"Lawson English" <eng...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:B63DA81D.DFFA%eng...@primenet.com...
> This is getting ridiculous!
>
> I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
> job.
>
> Background:
>
> Started Pascal classes in 1984. Chuck Allison of the C/C++ Journal was one
> of my Pascal teachers -he remembers me from 15 years ago as one of his top
> students, if that says anything. Learned C in 1986. First C projects
> included a speedup utility for Apple file://e disk-copying using file://e
Hi-res
> graphics card memory, if present, followed by writing C interfaces to
Apple
> file://e AppleSoft ROM graphics calls. Used both 6502 assembler and HyperC
Lawson English
jkra...@san.rr.com wrote on 11/19/00 10:25 PM:
I don't offer $10/hour -I just indicate that when I worked for Dr. Kendal
Preston, who wrote a book on computer graphics in the early '60's, I was
learning convolution algorithms, PowerPC assembler, C++ and the PowerPlant
framework simultaneously, so I took $10/hour as a trainee. It took me WAAY
too long to get up to speed, but I did it [glassy-eyed stare].
My pay-range is low when I'm the trainee and high when I'm the trainer and
in-between depending on my skill-level for the job-at-hand.
And I would be very happy to accept the low/mid/high pay-range of any
programming job -IF I could get the job in the first place!
--
"It is very material that order, decency and
regularity, be preserved in a dignified public body."
-Thomas Jefferson, 1812, _A Manual of Parliamentary Practice_
--
Robert Stankowic
>
> This is getting ridiculous!
>
> I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
> job.
>
> Background:
So far, so good, but...
> I've interviewed with people who seem impressed by my background and then
> send me form letters informing me (after meeting in several interviews) that
> my initial answer to initial question disqualifies me (e.g., no embedded
> systems experience, AFTER an engineer let slip that they were willing to
> train).
>
> I've informed total idiots that rather than attempting to port a multi-media
> conversion app from Windows to the Mac for a ludicrous $4000, I'd rewrite
> Apple's QuickTime sample translation code for free to accomplish the same
> thing in exchange for a reference and had them turn me down! (never called
> them an idiot to their face, mind you).
No, you did not, but (read your own statement please):
They wanted you to port that conversion app (which you obviously
refused). Instead you offered something, which might be technically
better (I don't know), but might also involve some copyright issues,
_and_ what you offered was not what they wanted. That one who pays
rules.
>
> I've had CENSORED engineers at CENSORED company tell me that they needed me
> to maintain a driver-control/test app in Visual C rather than let me rework
> the GUI in C++ while keeping the driver portion in C "because "C++ can't run
> drivers fast enough" -they later informed the headhunter that I obviously
> didn't understand C very well (presumably because I informed them that my
> background in C Windows programming wasn't good enough to maintain and
> extend the project in that language while my ability to handle C++ GUIs
> would allow me to factor the app appropriately into GUI and C driver code
> for easy maintenance).
Same as above..
>
> I've had idiots turn me down for a OOP/D/A position because I didn't know
> how to diagram an algorithm to reverse a singly-linked list, even though
> I've had over 10 years (off and on) experience with O-O, and they were
> looking for an O-O analyst to help them translate a project from PHP into
> Java (I'm systematically applying my chess problem visualization skills to
> learn to visualize the entire problem set of Sedgewick so someone can't pull
> THAT CRAP excuse on me ever again).
You failed that one and you are going to improve your skills. That
does not say anything about your skills except they did not match
their requirements (or what they thought their requirements are).
That happens to everybody sometimes. So what - just forget it...
>
> I had one company turn me down for a Web Objects position because "I didn't
> know Java well enough."
>
> Is it just me, or are Tucson area employers really this stupid?
Not really. They are looking for an incadescent bulb and you offer
them a golden gas-lighter. Even if they can do better with your
solutions _they don't want to_
And you cannot be sure, that your solution _is_ better for them
(from an overall point of view)
>
> 14 years with procedural languages (Pascal and C). 14 years with Mac
> programming. 4 different assembly languages (VAX, 6502, 68K, PowerPC). 10+
> years with object-oriented technologies (using Think Pascal and Think C &
> CodeWarrior C++). Less than 1 year with C++, although is that REALLY an
> issue given my OOP experience?
>
> My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
> hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
> than they are.
Age is not the problem I think. I am 56 and never had problems with
that.
Anyway, if I need the money or _want_ to get my foot into the door,
I am willing to wash stairs, and as soon as I have been washing
stairs for a year or so I can _carefully_ start to improve the
method of washing stairs.
I do wish you good luck and some insight into people's mentality
Regards
Robert
--
Robert Stankowic pcdo...@netway.at
I don't make my mistakes more than once. I store them carefully and
after some time I take them out again, add some new features and
_reuse_ them.
Markku Nevalainen
>
> I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
> job.
>
My quess is, that employers are a bit scared about your age + serious illness
that can take a man out of work for 4-5 years. I'm not saying it is entitled
or fair, but it is there.
> My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson.
Maybe you are not very serious with that offer?? Anyway, if you are, and your
understand how important it is first to get your 4-5 year employment broken,
why not call and offer your services to any small company, having 10..100
person staff.
In most of the companies, there's always a small need for some VB or Excel
macros to write, or some new reports generated, some conversions to be done,
or www-connections to be brushed up or anything.
Tip: They only want to get some smooth Excel macros done, don't scare them
with reading and listing your whole 15 year Mac experience etc. Don't even
mention the whole 15 years, just tell shortly that you have several years
of experience in doing just those tasks you now offer to do.
Do anything to get your first contract, even offer to do it first and they
can pay later if it works as expected.
When you just first get started, there is no problem widening the area, or
decide to concentrate just on some specific area.
With your age and experience on, you may soon notice that you do not want to
get hired anymore, but want to continue running your own business.
Markku Nevalainen
Lawson English
venting my frustration over the results of my interviews, which I *thought*
went OK, but obviously didn't.
If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview, it's
certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
in article 191120001412449654%ultra...@yahoo.com, Steve Wilbur at
ultra...@yahoo.com wrote on 11/19/00 4:12 PM:
> In article <B63DA81D.DFFA%eng...@primenet.com>, Lawson English
> <eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
> your problem is obviously your attitude....but i'm probably an idiot
> too, right?
>
>> Is it just me, or are Tucson area employers really this stupid?
>> 14 years with procedural languages (Pascal and C). 14 years with Mac
>> programming. 4 different assembly languages (VAX, 6502, 68K, PowerPC). 10+
>> years with object-oriented technologies (using Think Pascal and Think C &
>> CodeWarrior C++). Less than 1 year with C++, although is that REALLY an
>> issue given my OOP experience?
>> My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
>> hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
>> than they are.
>> Taught myself Calculus when I was 15 and I can't get a job programming
>> anything in a cowboy town.
--
"It is very material that order, decency and
regularity, be preserved in a dignified public body."
-Thomas Jefferson, 1812, _A Manual of Parliamentary Practice_
Erik Max Francis
> I don't offer $10/hour -I just indicate that when I worked for Dr.
> Kendal
> Preston, who wrote a book on computer graphics in the early '60's, I
> was
> learning convolution algorithms, PowerPC assembler, C++ and the
> PowerPlant
> framework simultaneously, so I took $10/hour as a trainee. It took me
> WAAY
> too long to get up to speed, but I did it [glassy-eyed stare].
And many programmers have done programming work for free at times, for
friends or family or for personal projects. But would they ever say
something in public like, "Will work for free?" Of course not.
> My pay-range is low when I'm the trainee and high when I'm the trainer
> and
> in-between depending on my skill-level for the job-at-hand.
With your claimed skill set, why would you ever refer to yourself as
"trainee"?
I can't help but thinking that this is a very clever troll.
--
Erik Max Francis / m...@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE
/ \ So little time, so little to do.
\__/ Oscar Levant
Physics reference / http://www.alcyone.com/max/reference/physics/
A physics reference.
Andreas Lander
i cant understand you, i think its no problem to find a well paid job
for your skills, im now 21 years old, finished the apprenticeship as a
electronic engineer and searched a job in the programming business, i
was going to 3 interviews and all companies wanted me to work for over
30$ an hour, without any OO skills...in the apprenticeship i only
programmed pascal(Turbo Pascal 7) and assembler(68HC11, 68HC05)...now im
learning C++ by doing, for a Salary of an employee. I could select even
my employer!!!
I can explains only with your 5 year illness. The company thinks: He
loses the cover to the actuality! I think you MUST DO SOMETHING
IMPORTANT WRONG, sorry, may be im not right, but i think so.....and with
an offer of $10 an hour, please, i was not working for that money, then
you better stay at home and work for yourself!!!
Im sorry for your sitation, but I don't have any other explanation.
Hope you find a job...
Andreas Lander
Graham Cox
>
> I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
> job.
drop these people a line, but don't tell them I said so:
Marcel Weiher
>If I had this attitude during the interview, *I* would be the idiot. I'm
>venting my frustration over the results of my interviews, which I *thought*
>went OK, but obviously didn't.
>If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview, it's
>certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
Hi Lawson,
people are very, very smart when it comes to detecting attitudes. It
is obvious on this list that you *feel* this way. Try to convince
yourself it is otherwise. Try to believe that the people you're
hiring with are not idiots, because quite often they aren't, even
if they do things differently from what you like.
Just my 2c worth,
Marcel
--
Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones.
Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS.
- Alan Kay -
Steve Wilbur
In article <B63E4098.E554%eng...@primenet.com>, Lawson English
Steve Wilbur
<mar...@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com> writes:
>
> >If I had this attitude during the interview, *I* would be the idiot. I'm
> >venting my frustration over the results of my interviews, which I *thought*
> >went OK, but obviously didn't.
>
> >If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview, it's
> >certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
> people are very, very smart when it comes to detecting attitudes. It
> is obvious on this list that you *feel* this way. Try to convince
> yourself it is otherwise. Try to believe that the people you're
> hiring with are not idiots, because quite often they aren't, even
> if they do things differently from what you like.
exactly.
Michael Howarth
yourself " I AM A TIGER !" growl and look menacing. Confidence is
everything !
Don't bullshit, just be straight with employers and don't fill their heads
up with meaningless cobblers that they don't need to hear.
As for the Tiger thing, I learned that from a great man named Alan
Partridge. :-)
M.
Goz
> I think you MUST DO SOMETHING IMPORTANT WRONG, sorry,
> may be im not right, but i think so
I would disagree with you whole heartedly. Although this problem is not one
I suffer (being 22) my Dad on the other hand is a programmer of 53 with 36
years experience. He can't get a job for the pure fact that managers are
rarely willing to take some1 on who is "better" (by better read more
experienced) than them. There are people out there who would take on a
younger less experienced programmer for the same salary a more experienced
programmer would get purely for the fact that the less experienced
programmer is less likely to tell them they are wrong. This is where
mistakes are made and it is 90% down to arrogance on the part of employers.
Lawson keep trying you will find an employer who does not give a f**k about
anything but your ability but unfortunately it may take time.. :(
Good Luck
Goz
Goz
M.H. Avegaart
ps. This is really the widest cross-post I have ever seen !!!
"Goz" <goz@_trueharmoniccolours.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:ci9S5.62898$K64.7...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
Peter Mutsaers
MHA> You are ignoring the difference in salary between a 53 and a
MHA> 22 year old ! ps. This is really the widest cross-post I
MHA> have ever seen !!!
Not necessarily. For contractors there is (luckily) no such thing as
automatic increase of salary with age (which is more typical european
anyway). You just get paid for what you're worth, as it should
be. When you get older, at a point the extra in experience gets
outweighted by slower and less creative thinking.
As a contractor of 34, I count on a slowly declining hourly rate in
the future (which still leaves enough for a decent income). Anything
above that (equal or more) I regard as a bonus. This assumption (with
this in mind I save a lot) makes that it can only be better than I
expect :) and protects for unforseen circumstances, bad times etc.
In general I think, in these times it is very risky to assume your
income will rise as you get older. As we see from this story, age is
not valued anymore.
The problem is that some think older people must earn more, therefore
they are too expensive. If we could get used to declining salary,
older people shouldn't have much problem to find a job in the IT
field, but they should just accept that since their value declines
their income does too.
--
Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf | Trust me, I know
p...@gmx.li | Switzerland | what I'm doing.
Andreas Lander
> I would disagree with you whole heartedly. Although this problem is not one
> I suffer (being 22) my Dad on the other hand is a programmer of 53 with 36
> years experience. He can't get a job for the pure fact that managers are
> rarely willing to take some1 on who is "better" (by better read more
> experienced) than them. There are people out there who would take on a
> younger less experienced programmer for the same salary a more experienced
> programmer would get purely for the fact that the less experienced
> programmer is less likely to tell them they are wrong. This is where
> mistakes are made and it is 90% down to arrogance on the part of employers.
ok, i dont know the situation in US(im from switzerland), but 90% is a
bit much!!! The employers i know, wasnt anyone arrogance. And that was
great employers(espacialy Siemens where i made my apprenticeship). Thus
if I was an employer, I will engage sure the senior for the same salary.
he has a lot more experiences in the field. ok, a disadvantage is, that
the senior-programmer is older and may be work for the companie only 5
years and a junior-programmer want be able to spent my be the whole life
at the same companie.
> Lawson keep trying you will find an employer who does not give a f**k about
> anything but your ability but unfortunately it may take time.. :(
I dont say, that he will never find a job, I will find it also well, if
he finds a job again. Its hard today without a job. Especially if one
was once unemployed, to find the getting on again. But in our Time,
where the software-market booms its no problem to find something good.
regards
Andreas Lander
L. M. Rappaport
consulting that managers are uniformly the least qualified to judge
your abilities. Why? I don't know. Perhaps their decision to move
to management was caused either due to financial reward or because
they couldn't handle the technical side; regardless, the move places
too much emphasis on their management functions and there is little
time to keep their technical skills sharp. There is a definite age
bias at many places and they won't hire you simply because you would
cost them too much. Productivity doesn't seem to enter the equation.
This doesn't help you, but perhaps if you understand the playing
field, you will know how to "play" them better. Keep indications off
your resume which indicate your age. Dye your hair if you think it
will help.
Of course, in the consulting field age can actually help. There are
lots of consulting firms desperate for folks if you don't mind the
travel. Anderson Consulting, E & E, etc. come to mind.
Good luck.
Larry
--
ra...@lmr.com
Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com> wrote (with possible editing):
>This is getting ridiculous!
>
>I've been out of work for about 4-5 years due to illness, and can't find a
>job.
>
>Background:
>
>Started Pascal classes in 1984. Chuck Allison of the C/C++ Journal was one
>of my Pascal teachers -he remembers me from 15 years ago as one of his top
>students, if that says anything. Learned C in 1986. First C projects
>included a speedup utility for Apple //e disk-copying using //e Hi-res
>graphics card memory, if present, followed by writing C interfaces to Apple
>I've interviewed with people who seem impressed by my background and then
>send me form letters informing me (after meeting in several interviews) that
>my initial answer to initial question disqualifies me (e.g., no embedded
>systems experience, AFTER an engineer let slip that they were willing to
>train).
>
>I've informed total idiots that rather than attempting to port a multi-media
>conversion app from Windows to the Mac for a ludicrous $4000, I'd rewrite
>Apple's QuickTime sample translation code for free to accomplish the same
>thing in exchange for a reference and had them turn me down! (never called
>them an idiot to their face, mind you).
>
>I've had CENSORED engineers at CENSORED company tell me that they needed me
>to maintain a driver-control/test app in Visual C rather than let me rework
>the GUI in C++ while keeping the driver portion in C "because "C++ can't run
>drivers fast enough" -they later informed the headhunter that I obviously
>didn't understand C very well (presumably because I informed them that my
>background in C Windows programming wasn't good enough to maintain and
>extend the project in that language while my ability to handle C++ GUIs
>would allow me to factor the app appropriately into GUI and C driver code
>for easy maintenance).
>
>I've had idiots turn me down for a OOP/D/A position because I didn't know
>how to diagram an algorithm to reverse a singly-linked list, even though
>I've had over 10 years (off and on) experience with O-O, and they were
>looking for an O-O analyst to help them translate a project from PHP into
>Java (I'm systematically applying my chess problem visualization skills to
>learn to visualize the entire problem set of Sedgewick so someone can't pull
>THAT CRAP excuse on me ever again).
>
>I had one company turn me down for a Web Objects position because "I didn't
>know Java well enough."
>
>
>
>Is it just me, or are Tucson area employers really this stupid?
>
>14 years with procedural languages (Pascal and C). 14 years with Mac
>programming. 4 different assembly languages (VAX, 6502, 68K, PowerPC). 10+
>years with object-oriented technologies (using Think Pascal and Think C &
>CodeWarrior C++). Less than 1 year with C++, although is that REALLY an
>issue given my OOP experience?
>
>
>
>My salary range is $10/hour and up in Tucson. I'm even willing to dye my
>hair so prospective managers won't be intimidated by someone 20 years older
>than they are.
>
>
>[maybe I can get a job in India...]
>
>
>--
Graham Cox
> Partridge. :-)
Yes, and look where that got HIM ;-)
Erik Max Francis
> If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview,
> it's
> certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
Are you sure about that?
Earlier you said that, during an interview, you indicated that they were
looking for the wrong job to get done and suggested what they should do
instead (presumably you weren't under NDA yet, so you were getting a
watered-down description in a vacuum without knowing the full context).
That sounds extremely arrogant and obnoxious to me, and I would _expect_
that anyone exhibiting such behavior in a preliminary interview would
rightfully _not_ get the job.
There are only a few ways to totally fail an interview. About the only
way to fail worse would be to start a fight with the interviewer or just
not show up.
--
Erik Max Francis / m...@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Physics, as we know it, will be over in six months.
\__/ Max Born (1928)
The laws list / http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/
Laws, rules, principles, effects, paradoxes, etc. in physics.
vrml3d.com
> I can't help but thinking that this is a very clever troll.
No, I don't think so. Many IT professionals have a high IQ, but a low EQ
(Emotional Quotient). I'm dealing with this myself right now. When I get
"in the door" I'm very good, but when it comes to the schmoozing skills
required to get me in the door, I'm very bad.
--Steve
Lawson English
m...@alcyone.com wrote on 11/20/00 1:54 AM:
>> My pay-range is low when I'm the trainee and high when I'm the trainer
>> and
>> in-between depending on my skill-level for the job-at-hand.
>
> With your claimed skill set, why would you ever refer to yourself as
> "trainee"?
Because I've never done ANY Windows program except working through
tutorials. Ditto with Java, Perl, Python, CGI, etc.
>
> I can't help but thinking that this is a very clever troll.
Or a not-so-clever cry for help...
--
"It is very material that order, decency and
regularity, be preserved in a dignified public body."
-Thomas Jefferson, 1812, _A Manual of Parliamentary Practice_
Lawson English
mar...@cs.tu-berlin.de wrote on 11/20/00 4:17 AM:
> Lawson English <eng...@primenet.com> writes:
>
>> If I had this attitude during the interview, *I* would be the idiot. I'm
>> venting my frustration over the results of my interviews, which I *thought*
>> went OK, but obviously didn't.
>
>> If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview, it's
>> certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
>
> Hi Lawson,
>
> people are very, very smart when it comes to detecting attitudes. It
> is obvious on this list that you *feel* this way. Try to convince
> yourself it is otherwise. Try to believe that the people you're
> hiring with are not idiots, because quite often they aren't, even
> if they do things differently from what you like.
>
> Just my 2c worth,
Some good points. I'd like to think that this attitude is recent, but maybe
not.
Cheers.
David Burgun
I think it would be cool idea to start a Software/Hardward consulting company
that hired no one BUT (say) 35+ year olds!
I wonder if they'd get hit by the Ageism police!?
Cheers
Dave
Lawson English
avegaar...@mccomm.nl wrote on 11/20/00 6:28 AM:
> You are ignoring the difference in salary between a 53 and a 22 year old !
>
> ps. This is really the widest cross-post I have ever seen !!!
It was an act of desperation, I'll admit.
For those who think that my troubles are unusual, I refer you to this
web-site:
Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
Especially:
<http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tth_sEc5>
Relevant quote:
"5 Rampant Age Discrimination-at Age 35
Mid-career programmers often have a very difficult time finding programming
work, so much so that large numbers of them leave the field.
The following is very instructive (IEEE-USA Perspectives, March 1999):
IEEE-USA's 1998 Unemployment Survey shows that despite a growing economy in
1998, the mean duration of unemployment among our members has increased from
84 weeks in 1995 to 103 weeks in 1998. Using data from the survey, Dr. Laura
Langbein of American University has calculated that each additional year of
age of members seeking new jobs translates into three additional weeks of
unemployment. "
Lawson English
m...@alcyone.com wrote on 11/20/00 10:08 AM:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
>> If I'm coming across as arrogant/obnoxious/etc. during the interview,
>> it's
>> certainly a LOT more subtle than what I've shown in this thread.
>
> Are you sure about that?
>
> Earlier you said that, during an interview, you indicated that they were
> looking for the wrong job to get done and suggested what they should do
> instead (presumably you weren't under NDA yet, so you were getting a
> watered-down description in a vacuum without knowing the full context).
> That sounds extremely arrogant and obnoxious to me, and I would _expect_
> that anyone exhibiting such behavior in a preliminary interview would
> rightfully _not_ get the job.
>
> There are only a few ways to totally fail an interview. About the only
> way to fail worse would be to start a fight with the interviewer or just
> not show up.
Hmmm... A point, except that I made it clear that I was the wrong PERSON to
do the job they wanted done due to my lack of C WIndows GUI experience, but
could do the job by splitting it into a VC++ GUI and a C-based driver app
if they were interested. They were all engineers whose idea of programming
comes from burning ROM, rather than from writing user-interfaces, so the
concept of an easy-to-program interface was completely foreign to them. As
far as I know, they STILL can't find someone to fill the position (it's been
open for about 6 months now, I think).
--
Erik Max Francis
> Because I've never done ANY Windows program except working through
> tutorials. Ditto with Java, Perl, Python, CGI, etc.
You're supposed to be an experienced programmer. Why can't you learn
it? Even on the job?
--
Erik Max Francis / m...@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.
\__/ Oscar Wilde
Fat Boy and Little Man / http://www.fatboyandlittleman.com/
Watch Fat Boy and Little Man go about their antics.
Steve Wilbur
Rappaport <ra...@lmr.com> wrote:
> There is a definite age
> bias at many places and they won't hire you simply because you would
> cost them too much. Productivity doesn't seem to enter the equation.
Oh please. Not hiring someone because you can't afford to pay what
they ask is hardly age bias. If you have $50K in your budget, then you
have $50K in your budget, no matter WHO you interview.
Steve Wilbur
<eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
> Because I've never done ANY Windows program except working through
> tutorials. Ditto with Java, Perl, Python, CGI, etc.
and there you have it. you can have all the programming skills you
want, but if you don't have the ones i need, why should i hire you?
i'm not a training ground. i need someone coming in the door that's up
to speed.
gen...@hexdump.org
: and there you have it. you can have all the programming skills you
: want, but if you don't have the ones i need, why should i hire you?
: i'm not a training ground. i need someone coming in the door that's up
: to speed.
Someone with that much programming experience can pick up anything
relatively quickly.
Languages are just tools. They are simply a collection of syntax, idiom,
and grammatical rules.
--
Jeff Gentry gen...@hexdump.org gen...@rpi.edu
"You're one of those condescending UNIX users! ...."
"Here's a nickel kid ... get yourself a real computer."
Lawson English
m...@alcyone.com wrote on 11/20/00 1:44 PM:
> Lawson English wrote:
>
>> Because I've never done ANY Windows program except working through
>> tutorials. Ditto with Java, Perl, Python, CGI, etc.
>
> You're supposed to be an experienced programmer. Why can't you learn
> it? Even on the job?
I think that that has been my point... No one wants to let me learn it, even
at $10/hour.
Lawson English
gen...@hexdump.org at gen...@hexdump.org wrote on 11/20/00 3:19 PM:
> In comp.lang.c++ Steve Wilbur <ultra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : and there you have it. you can have all the programming skills you
> : want, but if you don't have the ones i need, why should i hire you?
> : i'm not a training ground. i need someone coming in the door that's up
> : to speed.
>
> Someone with that much programming experience can pick up anything
> relatively quickly.
>
> Languages are just tools. They are simply a collection of syntax, idiom,
> and grammatical rules.
Well, OOP and client/server and Web technologies all have there own
idiosyncrasies that need experience/guidance/insight to use properly, but
I've run into enough badly designed & written OOP&Web-stuff to know that
that isn't the REAL reason why I'm not getting hired...
At best, managers are merely ignorant of how poorly-trained their current
crop of OOP & web-developers are. At worst, they don't care.
It's that magic-bullet thing, I guess.
Steve Nester
>: and there you have it. you can have all the programming skills you
>: want, but if you don't have the ones i need, why should i hire you?
>: i'm not a training ground. i need someone coming in the door that's up
>: to speed.
I'm convinced this is a big reason why projects and companies fail.
Would you really rather hire an average programmer who may be up to
speed immediately or a good programmer who make take a month to get up
to speed but in two months will far outstrip the abilities of the
average programmer?
Of course there's no pat answer to that question depending on circumstances,
but I feel that all too many companies always answer "yes" no matter what
the circumstances because they can't plan their projects and are always
in the middle of a perceived crisis or feel they absolutely must work
in "Internet time" whether they really need to or not. Of course
I'm not saying this is the case with you.
Steve
Steve Wilbur
someone who has to learn, I'm going to pick the person who already
knows.
On a side note, I don't care how much non-object-oriented experience a
person has, if I need them to use Java and be truly proficient with it,
it's gonna take them a year (or more) to really get it. If I have to
saddle another programmer with training that person, I've lost a lot of
capacity!
Another example...take a "mainframer" for instance. I don't care how
much experience they have programming on a mainframe - if I need
someone doing C++ under UNIX, that's a serious change in mentality. I
work with mainframers and trust me, when it comes to things like OOP
and UNIX, they don't get it.
In article <qrhS5.19215$751.5...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,
<gen...@hexdump.org> wrote:
> In comp.lang.c++ Steve Wilbur <ultra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Steve Wilbur
<eng...@primenet.com> wrote:
> I think that that has been my point... No one wants to let me learn it, even
> at $10/hour.
That's because there is a serious cost involved in OJT. What you're
paying the guy (learning) is the least of it. Odds are, you've got
someone else saddled with training him or answering his questions,
making that person less productive. Then you've got the work the
trainee is doing - it's not as much as it would be if you hired someone
who already knows what's going on. Assuming you're taking 20% of the
trainer's time, and you're being half as productive as you otherwise
would be, that's 70% of a programmer. Essentially, I've hired you for
100% of the time, and I'm effectively getting 30% of you. Yeah, maybe
you only cost $10/hr, but that's not helping me get my projects done.
If you really feel that lack of "required skills" is the issue, then
get them. You can get them on your own. Do some stuff as a hobby, do
some work for a non-profit, hell, go back to school. But I have to
say, given the huge demand for IT people, the willingness of employers
to do most anything to fill vacancies (including train/retrain) people,
I find it hard to believe that someone with as much experience as
you're claiming as any difficulty at all finding a job. Maybe it's
time to move to a different area of the country. Hell, here in Alaska,
we're DESPERATE to fill jobs. At my employer, 25% of the IT positions
on the books are unfilled because we can't find anyone to take them.
