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retired developer
Apr 20, 2020, 2:49:23 PM4/20/20
to
Hi,
I'm a little bit curious and ask you...
In those old days we all had displays, mostly VT-52 and then the
legendary VT-100 (with all the VT-100 compatibles) as the user
interface. By "old days" I mean some 40 years ago but at least one
company I know, still uses such a computer system this very days too.
...so the question is, are nowadays such displays (or emulators like
SmarTerm220, Reflection, Powerterm and others) still in use?
Does somebody knows of (or uses) such character based user interfaces
(which are today in use) or were all replaced by some kind of GUI or Web
applications?
How was the transition from CHUI to GUI/Web - did the people just
adapted the old Apps or rewrote the whole application?
Regards,
J., the (retired) mumpster
--
An old Windows has old security holes.
A new Windows has new security holes.
Another OS has another security holes.
For safety you must care yourself.
I'm a little bit curious and ask you...
In those old days we all had displays, mostly VT-52 and then the
legendary VT-100 (with all the VT-100 compatibles) as the user
interface. By "old days" I mean some 40 years ago but at least one
company I know, still uses such a computer system this very days too.
...so the question is, are nowadays such displays (or emulators like
SmarTerm220, Reflection, Powerterm and others) still in use?
Does somebody knows of (or uses) such character based user interfaces
(which are today in use) or were all replaced by some kind of GUI or Web
applications?
How was the transition from CHUI to GUI/Web - did the people just
adapted the old Apps or rewrote the whole application?
Regards,
J., the (retired) mumpster
--
An old Windows has old security holes.
A new Windows has new security holes.
Another OS has another security holes.
For safety you must care yourself.
Flávio Fornazier
Apr 20, 2020, 4:35:06 PM4/20/20
to
Hi Mr.J,
"...so the question is, are nowadays such displays (or emulators like
SmarTerm220, Reflection, Powerterm and others) still in use?"
- Currently, there are a lot of free and commercial terminal emulators for any OS.
"Does somebody knows of (or uses) such character based user interfaces (which are today in use) or were all replaced by some kind of GUI or Web applications?"
- As far I know, some companies still use CHUI.
"How was the transition from CHUI to GUI/Web - did the people just
adapted the old Apps or rewrote the whole application?"
- Some people adapted the old Apps, others rewrote the whole application, as well mixed cases.
Regards,
"...so the question is, are nowadays such displays (or emulators like
SmarTerm220, Reflection, Powerterm and others) still in use?"
"Does somebody knows of (or uses) such character based user interfaces (which are today in use) or were all replaced by some kind of GUI or Web applications?"
"How was the transition from CHUI to GUI/Web - did the people just
adapted the old Apps or rewrote the whole application?"
Regards,
retired developer
Apr 21, 2020, 7:53:23 PM4/21/20
to
On 20.04.20 22:35, Flávio Fornazier wrote:
Hi,
> - Currently, there are a lot of free and commercial terminal emulators for any OS.
oh yes, I know some of them - but I'm more interested does some of old
applications survived the obsessiveness to change everything into a
colorful, clickable, poppable and slow (especially those web-things)
user interface.
> - As far I know, some companies still use CHUI.
No demand to change?
I had some funny experiences...
- a company, I know of, had a transition of about 10 (ten!) years
(no, I had nothing in common with them)
- a company, I worked for, started to rewrite the whole applications
after more then 5 years and a partially ready SW the company closed
- another company said to me "we do not need you any more,
next year we will get a nice, good-looking new SW".
They said this ten years (and some months) ago!
Guess, what all three stories have in common?
All managers, who were responsible for the new applications said "CHUI?
That is neither modern nor nice, can't use the mouse and generally
speaking, what is mumps? We will do the new application much much better!"
> - Some people adapted the old Apps, others rewrote the whole application, as well mixed cases.
And in which time?
Thanks.
Regads,
J. the (retired) mumpster
Hi,
> - Currently, there are a lot of free and commercial terminal emulators for any OS.
applications survived the obsessiveness to change everything into a
colorful, clickable, poppable and slow (especially those web-things)
user interface.
> - As far I know, some companies still use CHUI.
I had some funny experiences...
- a company, I know of, had a transition of about 10 (ten!) years
(no, I had nothing in common with them)
- a company, I worked for, started to rewrite the whole applications
after more then 5 years and a partially ready SW the company closed
- another company said to me "we do not need you any more,
next year we will get a nice, good-looking new SW".
They said this ten years (and some months) ago!
Guess, what all three stories have in common?
All managers, who were responsible for the new applications said "CHUI?
That is neither modern nor nice, can't use the mouse and generally
speaking, what is mumps? We will do the new application much much better!"
> - Some people adapted the old Apps, others rewrote the whole application, as well mixed cases.
Thanks.
Regads,
J. the (retired) mumpster
Maury Pepper
Apr 22, 2020, 5:47:59 PM4/22/20
to
On 4/21/2020 6:53 PM, retired developer
wrote:
On 20.04.20 22:35, Flávio Fornazier wrote:
Hi,
- Currently, there are a lot of free and commercial terminal emulators for any OS.
oh yes, I know some of them - but I'm more interested does some of old applications survived the obsessiveness to change everything into a colorful, clickable, poppable and slow (especially those web-things) user interface.
- As far I know, some companies still use CHUI.
No demand to change?
I had some funny experiences...
- a company, I know of, had a transition of about 10 (ten!) years
(no, I had nothing in common with them)
- a company, I worked for, started to rewrite the whole applications
after more then 5 years and a partially ready SW the company closed
- another company said to me "we do not need you any more,
next year we will get a nice, good-looking new SW".
They said this ten years (and some months) ago!
Guess, what all three stories have in common?
All managers, who were responsible for the new applications said "CHUI? That is neither modern nor nice, can't use the mouse and generally speaking, what is mumps? We will do the new application much much better!"
- Some people adapted the old Apps, others rewrote the whole application, as well mixed cases.
And in which time?
Thanks.
Regads,
J. the (retired) mumpster
Yes, there are CHUI applications still in use. For one, the Antrim
lab system (though Antrim no longer exists) is still used. I know
one lab director who wanted no part of any GUI system because it
would slow down the workflow. Efficiency was always key.
retired developer
May 2, 2020, 8:03:40 AM5/2/20
to
On 22.04.20 23:47, Maury Pepper wrote:
Hi Maury,
> Yes, there are CHUI applications still in use. For one, the Antrim lab
> system (though Antrim no longer exists) is still used. I know one lab
> director who wanted no part of any GUI system because it would slow down
> the workflow. Efficiency was always key.
Thank you. And yes, I do understand the mentioned lab director,
moreover, I'm pretty sure, many of the "new" UIs (a fancy GUI or just a
colorful Web-Solution) are by far not as efficient (fast) as some of the
old CHUIs.
But never mind, nowadays I just keep track of current evolution, and
wonder. It seems, nowadays the whole world is just an app!
Regards,
J., the (retired) mumpster
Hi Maury,
> Yes, there are CHUI applications still in use. For one, the Antrim lab
> system (though Antrim no longer exists) is still used. I know one lab
> director who wanted no part of any GUI system because it would slow down
> the workflow. Efficiency was always key.
moreover, I'm pretty sure, many of the "new" UIs (a fancy GUI or just a
colorful Web-Solution) are by far not as efficient (fast) as some of the
old CHUIs.
But never mind, nowadays I just keep track of current evolution, and
wonder. It seems, nowadays the whole world is just an app!
Regards,
J., the (retired) mumpster
Stefan Traby
May 2, 2020, 12:48:02 PM5/2/20
to
On 2020-05-02, retired developer <retired....@protonmail.com> wrote:
> But never mind, nowadays I just keep track of current evolution, and
> wonder. It seems, nowadays the whole world is just an app!
We haven't been to the moon since GUI's were invented...
> But never mind, nowadays I just keep track of current evolution, and
> wonder. It seems, nowadays the whole world is just an app!
--
ciao -
Stefan
jas
May 15, 2020, 12:42:58 AM5/15/20
to
Back in 1994 When the World Wide Web was very new and long before it was discovered by more than a very small number of people, or generally available, one of our programmers (UC Davis VMTH ) wrote a MUMPS web server that ran on DTM and provided a web based interface to our hospital information system that was also available to our users via VT-100 type terminals. Years later the system was converted to a different version of MUMPS that ran on Open Source Linux, GTM.
The web interface was much better for use by the doctors and students, but the CHUI interface was much better suited to the staff at that time. Both were very quick, unlike many GUI interfaces I have seen in doctors offices even today.
Later the web interface was extended to staff also, mostly as staff turned over and new users became less amenable to learning and using the old technology. After I retired, about 10 years ago, an effort was begun to replace the web interface with something written in Java. This was driven by administration and outside technologists who had no idea what they were getting into. I have no idea if they have been successful.
Fortunately, the remaining technical staff were able to convince the administration not to waste their time trying to replace the MUMPS running the whole thing or they would have had a costly disaster with it long ago.
Web based interfaces to information systems do not have to be slow or poorly focused on productivity and efficiency. Although many are, or were, that was largely a result of incorporating too many images into application designs before internet speeds and personal computers were ready to handle them quickly.
MUMPS was and continues to be technically well suited to rapid development and deployment of information systems large and small, although it is largely unknown now outside of the circles where it has found a special niche, such as large medical information systems and international banking.
The web interface was much better for use by the doctors and students, but the CHUI interface was much better suited to the staff at that time. Both were very quick, unlike many GUI interfaces I have seen in doctors offices even today.
Later the web interface was extended to staff also, mostly as staff turned over and new users became less amenable to learning and using the old technology. After I retired, about 10 years ago, an effort was begun to replace the web interface with something written in Java. This was driven by administration and outside technologists who had no idea what they were getting into. I have no idea if they have been successful.
Fortunately, the remaining technical staff were able to convince the administration not to waste their time trying to replace the MUMPS running the whole thing or they would have had a costly disaster with it long ago.
Web based interfaces to information systems do not have to be slow or poorly focused on productivity and efficiency. Although many are, or were, that was largely a result of incorporating too many images into application designs before internet speeds and personal computers were ready to handle them quickly.
MUMPS was and continues to be technically well suited to rapid development and deployment of information systems large and small, although it is largely unknown now outside of the circles where it has found a special niche, such as large medical information systems and international banking.
Rick H
Aug 4, 2021, 5:02:58 PM8/4/21
to
retired developer
Aug 5, 2021, 5:23:29 PM8/5/21
to
On 04.08.21 23:02, Rick H wrote:
> Thinking about building a loosely coupled GUI builder for M technology users. Think there is any interest?
Hello Rick,
> Thinking about building a loosely coupled GUI builder for M technology users. Think there is any interest?
what do you mean with "loosely coupled"?
Regards,
Julius
--
An old Windows has old security holes.
A new Windows has new security holes.
Rick H
Aug 10, 2021, 5:36:29 PM8/10/21
to
communication is via tcp, so the gui engine can be on the same or one or more other computers.
...and it will present a lot faster than MWAPI.
Yes, we thought of com objects, etc. But, that, typically requires an M vendor-specific Z command.
write (W) commands to the gui engine; read 'events' posted by it and logically manage them however you want. Typically, execute the string that is returned.
use tcp1 w "button .b1 -text Continue -action {your mumps code goes here}
This is what we did with CACHE. 80 desktops managed by 4 Cache jobs. We got a pass from Intersystems with this form of implementation - not allowed by contract. But we brought them into American Airlines, so ...
Rick H
Aug 10, 2021, 5:40:30 PM8/10/21
to
On Thursday, August 5, 2021 at 2:23:29 PM UTC-7, retired developer wrote:
Asking who uses tcl\tk is like asking who uses mumps -
Well the medical community is steeped in M tech; and those little guys now moving around Mars, and the guidance system that help get them there .... tcl\tk.
Anyone with more than half a brain would be using tcl\tk instead of python. No apologies.
The CCSM implementation, though never stable, is an example of 'a' way that I think is better, faster and less complex.
The free \donor version would provide for the construction and execution of a GUI as a give back to the community.
Addition of speech recognition; text to speech and multimedia - audio, video - fee.
The solution is not a wet dream; it has been commercialized. examples on verbaltransactions.com
Here is an example of two buttons on a toplevel form. Note that in this instance, the controls take on the visual characteristics of the users Win 10 window theme.
# instantiate a form
write ".toplevel .myform -width 80% -height 50% -title {Button Selection}
# instantiate two controls
write "button .myform.b1 -text Continue -state normal -action {some mumps code that is invoked when button is selected}
write "button .myform.b2 -text Ok -state disabled -action {some mumps code that is invoked when button is selected}
# present in any of three forms of window management
# pack -
write "pack .myform.b1 -side left"
write "pack ..myformb2 -side right"
# grid -
write "grid .myform.b1 .myform.b2"
# place -
write "place .myform.b1 -xpos 20points -ypos 40points"
write "place .myform.b2 xpos 80 points -ypos 40points"
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