CLISP: Why a menorah?

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Bob Nelson

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May 13, 2002, 12:28:46 AM5/13/02
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Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:

11:19:53 on Sun May 12
----- $ clisp

i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
\ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
`-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
| 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8

* Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
application?

--
========================================================================
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/nelson/open-computing.html
``UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because
that would also stop you from doing clever things.'' --Doug Gwyn

Christopher Browne

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May 13, 2002, 2:28:13 AM5/13/02
to
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> would write:
> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>
> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
> ----- $ clisp
>
> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
> I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
> I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>
> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> application?

Probably has something to do with Sam Steingold being one of the
principal developers.

I'd have a hard time imagining a name that would seem "more Jewish"
than that. "Samuel" is a pretty good Jewish name; Stein is pretty
typically Jewish; "gold" is also a common indicator.

If he's thus "triply Jewish," it's almost surprising that there's only
just the one menorah... :-)
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "ac.notelrac.teneerf@" "454aa"))
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spiritual.html
Is the surface of a planet the right place for an expanding
technological civilization?

synthespian

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May 13, 2002, 5:42:31 AM5/13/02
to
On Mon, 13 May 2002 01:28:46 -0300, Bob Nelson wrote:

> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>
> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
> ----- $ clisp
>
> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo I I I I
> I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8 I \ `+' / I
> 8 8 8 8 8 8
> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>
> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> application?
>


Of what significance is your question in this newsgroup?

henry
synth...@uol.com.br

_________________________________________________________
Micro$oft-Free Human 100% Debian GNU/Linux
KMFMS "Bring the genome to the people!"

Raymond Toy

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May 13, 2002, 10:02:33 AM5/13/02
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>>>>> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:

Christopher> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> would write:
>> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>>
>> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
>> ----- $ clisp
>>
>> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
>> I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
>> I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
>> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
>> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
>> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
>> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>>
>> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
>> application?

Christopher> Probably has something to do with Sam Steingold being one of the
Christopher> principal developers.

The menorah predates Sam's involvement. For as long as I can
remember, it's always been there. Perhaps Bruno Haible put it there?

Ray

Sam Steingold

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May 13, 2002, 10:08:05 AM5/13/02
to
> * In message <abnmds$jmt5k$1...@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>
> * On the subject of "Re: CLISP: Why a menorah?"
> * Sent on 13 May 2002 06:28:13 GMT

> * Honorable Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:
>
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> would write:
> > Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
> >
> > 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
> > ----- $ clisp
> >
> > i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
> > I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
> > I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
> > \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> > `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> > | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> > ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
> >
> > * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> > application?
>
> Probably has something to do with Sam Steingold being one of the
> principal developers.

this was already the CLISP logo when I first encountered CLISP in 1997,
i.e., this logo has absolutely nothing to do with me (no, the logo did
not affect my decision to use and contribute to CLISP; and no, if this
were up to me, I would not have chosen a religious symbol for a software
logo).

When I asked Bruno Haible, the main hacker behind CLISP, about the
logo, he said that he will tell me that when we meet in person.
(We did meet in person, I did get an answer to the question,
and, obviously, I will not disclose it here.)

If you must have some answer and you don't care whether it is correct
or not, you may think that CL brings the Light to a programmer, and
CLISP is a vehicle that carries the Light. :-)

this is a CLISP FAQ, but we are still waiting for a CLISP FAQ list
maintainer to volunteer...

--
Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running RedHat7.2 GNU/Linux
<http://www.camera.org> <http://www.iris.org.il> <http://www.memri.org/>
<http://www.palestine-central.com/> <http://www.mideasttruth.com/>
There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one works.

Christopher Browne

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May 13, 2002, 12:13:34 PM5/13/02
to
Quoth Sam Steingold <s...@gnu.org>:

>> * In message <abnmds$jmt5k$1...@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>
>> * On the subject of "Re: CLISP: Why a menorah?"
>> * Sent on 13 May 2002 06:28:13 GMT
>> * Honorable Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:
>>
>> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> would write:
>> > Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>> >
>> > 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
>> > ----- $ clisp
>> >
>> > i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
>> > I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
>> > I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
>> > \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
>> > `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
>> > | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
>> > ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>> >
>> > * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
>> > application?
>>
>> Probably has something to do with Sam Steingold being one of the
>> principal developers.
>
> this was already the CLISP logo when I first encountered CLISP in 1997,
> i.e., this logo has absolutely nothing to do with me (no, the logo did
> not affect my decision to use and contribute to CLISP; and no, if this
> were up to me, I would not have chosen a religious symbol for a software
> logo).

I did some work on a package called "cbb" for obvious reasons of
coincidence, in addition to having found it useful, so I'd be entirely
unoffended by the notion there being some, ah, "serendipity" to the
matter.

It seems odd that your later comments indicate that there's some
quasi-secret behind it; I'd suggest you guys consider publishing the
reasoning, as this is the sort of thing that would lead the more
paranoid to conspiracy theory.

There are quite enough people out there that like blaming everything
that they don't like in the world on the "international bankers"
(which apparently is the white supremacist codeword for "Evil Jews,"
or just "Jews," the "Evil" part being redundant to them).

If the matter _is_ a big secret, then it's probably a good idea to
just plain _LOSE_ the menorah. If it _isn't_ a big secret, then
keeping it secret can't be a good thing.
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.enworbbc@" "sirhc"))
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/
Rules of the Evil Overlord #51. "If one of my dungeon guards begins
expressing concern over the conditions in the beautiful princess'
cell, I will immediately transfer him to a less people-oriented
position." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>

J.L. Perez-de-la-Cruz

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May 13, 2002, 12:53:35 PM5/13/02
to

Bob Nelson wrote:
>
> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>
> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
> ----- $ clisp
>
> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
> I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
> I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>
> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> application?

You can always invoke clisp with the option
-q, --quiet, --silent
"Quiet: clisp displays no banner at startup and no good-bye message
when quitting."
However, I don't. Free software implementors have the right to chose a
logo,
I daresay.

---------------------
Jose-Luis Perez-de-la-Cruz
ETSI Informatica
POB 4114
MALAGA 29080 SPAIN
Tlf +34 952 132801
Fax +34 952 131397
--------------------

Nils Goesche

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May 13, 2002, 1:26:00 PM5/13/02
to
Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:

> It seems odd that your later comments indicate that there's some
> quasi-secret behind it; I'd suggest you guys consider publishing the
> reasoning, as this is the sort of thing that would lead the more
> paranoid to conspiracy theory.
>
> There are quite enough people out there that like blaming everything
> that they don't like in the world on the "international bankers"
> (which apparently is the white supremacist codeword for "Evil Jews,"
> or just "Jews," the "Evil" part being redundant to them).
>
> If the matter _is_ a big secret, then it's probably a good idea to
> just plain _LOSE_ the menorah. If it _isn't_ a big secret, then
> keeping it secret can't be a good thing.

Do you mean that or are you only dying of curiosity? I mean, if we
can have such an easy moron indicator for free, I'd say keep it in!
Add some! Spread some rumors about it, see who believes them!

Regards,
--
Nils Goesche
"Don't ask for whom the <CTRL-G> tolls."

PGP key ID 0x42B32FC9

Christopher C. Stacy

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May 13, 2002, 2:09:05 PM5/13/02
to
>>>>> On Mon, 13 May 2002 06:42:31 -0300, synthespian ("synthespian") writes:

synthespian> On Mon, 13 May 2002 01:28:46 -0300, Bob Nelson wrote:
>> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>>
>> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
>> ----- $ clisp
>>
>> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo I I I I
>> I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8 I \ `+' / I
>> 8 8 8 8 8 8
>> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
>> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
>> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
>> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>>
>> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
>> application?
>>

synthespian> Of what significance is your question in this newsgroup?

CLISP is a very popular Lisp implementation in this newsgroup.

Sam Steingold

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May 13, 2002, 2:11:01 PM5/13/02
to
> * In message <aboone$jisrm$1...@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>

> * On the subject of "Re: CLISP: Why a menorah?"
> * Sent on 13 May 2002 16:13:34 GMT

> * Honorable Christopher Browne <cbbr...@acm.org> writes:
>
> It seems odd that your later comments indicate that there's some
> quasi-secret behind it;

no secret. people have their reasons for doing what they do. they may
not necessarily feel it appropriate to discuss what they do in public.

> I'd suggest you guys consider publishing the reasoning, as this is the
> sort of thing that would lead the more paranoid to conspiracy theory.

conspiracy theorists and those who are offended by the menorah are not
our user base. in fact, if this will help us lose some losers, so much
the better.

"Complete Idiots Guide to Running LINUX Unleashed in a Nutshell for Dummies"

Kenny Tilton

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May 13, 2002, 4:39:47 PM5/13/02
to

> Do you mean that or are you only dying of curiosity? I mean, if we
> can have such an easy moron indicator for free, I'd say keep it in!
> Add some! Spread some rumors about it, see who believes them!

Could help...there is no such thing as bad publicity. We tried offering
a powerful, efficient, expressive, GCed development tool and got
nowhere. Maybe an alliance with the Elders of Zion will do the trick.

Texe Marrs might be good outlet for this scoop:

http://www.texemarrs.com/121997/LOGO.HTM

and i quote:

"Apple Computers was cofounded in the 70s by Stephen Jobs, a weird, New
Age guru-type, and Steven Wozniak, also an advocate of the Aquarian Age
culture. When entrepreneurs Jobs and Wozniak first marketed their
earliest, crude personal computer, they put a price tag of $666 on the
product. 666! Coincidental--or on purpose? You decide."

:)

--

kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Harvey has overcome not only time and space but any objections."
Elwood P. Dowd

sv0f

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May 13, 2002, 5:27:27 PM5/13/02
to

>If you must have some answer and you don't care whether it is correct
>or not, you may think that CL brings the Light to a programmer, and
>CLISP is a vehicle that carries the Light. :-)

Below is a poem a friend of mine translated from the
original German. It is based on John 1 (in the Bible),
and I often think of it when growing my Lisp programs:

The Word

In the beginning
was the Word
and the Word
was with God

And God gave us
the word
and we dwelt
in the Word

And the Word is
our dream
and the dream is
our Life

­ Rose Auslander

Thien-Thi Nguyen

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May 13, 2002, 6:05:54 PM5/13/02
to
Sam Steingold <s...@gnu.org> writes:

> conspiracy theorists and those who are offended by the menorah
> are not our user base. in fact, if this will help us lose
> some losers, so much the better.

come on now, if you're going to be a GNU project that loses
users, you should at least do it right (see guile, for example).

thi

Bob Nelson

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May 13, 2002, 6:14:13 PM5/13/02
to
synthespian <synth...@uol.com.br> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 May 2002 01:28:46 -0300, Bob Nelson wrote:

>> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>>
>> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
>> ----- $ clisp
>>

>> [...ASCII art elided...]


>>
>> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
>> application?

> Of what significance is your question in this newsgroup?

There is not a ``comp.lang.clisp'' newsgroup in which the question may have
been posed.

--
========================================================================
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/nelson/open-computing.html
``Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.''

Erik Naggum

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May 13, 2002, 8:07:44 PM5/13/02
to
* Sam Steingold <s...@gnu.org>

| conspiracy theorists and those who are offended by the menorah are not
| our user base. in fact, if this will help us lose some losers, so much
| the better.

I am much more offended by this confusion of private and professional
issues than I could possibly be by the menorah. That confusion, however,
is not limited to abusing symbols of Judaism, but to such things as
refusing to work in the People's Republic of China:

(PRC () (values -8
(error "Timezone for PRC not implemented -
Don't forget that 10000 students were murdered by the government
of the \"People's Republic of China\" in June 1989!"
) ) )

This immature expression of political activism means that I cannot even
refer to the local time of the Tiananmen Guangchang event itself, or any
other event in PRC for that matter. It thus works better for those who
want to quell criticism than those who want to make it. The latter are
not likely to remove that stupid error in the source, while the former
are -- in their own copies and the ones they distribute. (Provided that
"PRC" is a useful way to refer to Chinese timezones, of course.)

While I may not object to this particular immature expression of
political activism, what is next? Who _are_ the people I have to be
prepared to agree with on some random political agenda in order to be
able to continue to use a piece of software? I believe the use of the
menorah gives me _some_ clues, because it is no longer just a religious
symbol; it must be seen in the context of the political agenda of which
there is strong if not ample evidence elsewhere. Now that Israel has
gone from simply angry to downright mad and tolerate about as much
criticism of their actions as a regular psychopath, organizations that
have supported Israel in the past, in countries that supported Israel in
the past, are suddenly labeled "enemies of Israel". Since the use of the
menorah is "secret", how can I help feeling I have to prepare for the
situation that CLISP may suddenly stop working in Oslo after some
otherwise innocuous upgrade, because of the Oslo agreement, which was
just killed in the Likud party? Considering that at least one of the
developers have expressed extremely irrational sentiments about Emacs, I
have a dim view of his general level of rationality in _professional_
matters. The personal I could not care less about, but when they are
seriously confused, what am I to do?

Of course, I just classified myself as a "loser" in Sam Steingold's view
because I _disagree_ with something that is clearly out of place in any
software product, and thus I am not in his intended "user base". The
arrogance of this attitude is just as bad as the "I know better than the
standard, everybody else, and you in particular, so I implement this
differently for your own good"-attitude that has been with CLISP from the
outset, too.

I may actually want to join the moral equivalent of a political party in
the sense that Kent Pitman has described the Common Lisp community versus
the Scheme community, but I do _not_ want to join a real political party
or movement or whatever just because I may want to use a particular
software product in that community. Not only has that software product
made it clear that its constituency is intentionally not overlapping with
the Common Lisp community, it has now made it clear that it is the
intersection of a subset of the Common Lisp community _and_ some random
political movement _and_ some random group with some sort of religious
ties. I am well known for my limited patience with stupidity, but this
really takes the cake. Of course, it matches the "C is not good enough
for me, so I have slightly altered the comment syntax" cruft, not to
mention "I know where the right parens should go, and you don't".

If your goal is to get only people who agree with _all_ these very
strange ideas to use CLISP, and label everyone else "losers", feel free,
but you should really put this in a end-user license agreement and
require that people "sign" it before they run into problems because of
their implicit agreement with something they may explicitly disagree with
if they get the option to voice their opinion. It may be a "smart" move
to make the "accept" button read "I'm a winner" and the "reject" button
"I'm a loser" so that you can appropriately express your arrogance, too.
--
In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none.
In a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.

70 percent of American adults do not understand the scientific process.

Oleg

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May 13, 2002, 9:12:43 PM5/13/02
to
Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<2iHD8.3031$X%5.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

> Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
>
> 11:19:53 on Sun May 12
> ----- $ clisp
>
> i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
> I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
> I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
> \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
>
> * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> application?

I have heard that circumcision had something to do with it...

Oleg

Marco Antoniotti

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May 14, 2002, 9:56:53 AM5/14/02
to

Thien-Thi Nguyen <t...@glug.org> writes:

Since when guile is "the right thing" (even in GNU land)?

Cheers

--
Marco Antoniotti ========================================================
NYU Courant Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
719 Broadway 12th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://bioinformatics.cat.nyu.edu
"Hello New York! We'll do what we can!"
Bill Murray in `Ghostbusters'.

Thien-Thi Nguyen

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May 14, 2002, 5:50:11 PM5/14/02
to
Marco Antoniotti <mar...@cs.nyu.edu> writes:

> Since when guile is "the right thing" (even in GNU land)?

guile has been losing users (or is that using losers) for a long time now...
it does this by forking a lot. there's no need to involve religion at all.

thi

Thomas Bushnell, BSG

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May 14, 2002, 7:11:18 PM5/14/02
to
Thien-Thi Nguyen <t...@glug.org> writes:

> guile has been losing users (or is that using losers) for a long time now...
> it does this by forking a lot. there's no need to involve religion at all.

Really? I don't recall any forks.

Thien-Thi Nguyen

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May 14, 2002, 10:44:02 PM5/14/02
to
tb+u...@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) writes:

> Really? I don't recall any forks.

i'm loosely expanding the scope of "fork" to include undocumented (and most
kinds of documented) incompatibility from one version to the next, the kind
that causes users' code to break, alienating them. this is all very much
hashed out in the mailing list archives and OT, so i'll stop now.

thi

Thomas Bushnell, BSG

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May 15, 2002, 1:38:44 AM5/15/02
to
Thien-Thi Nguyen <t...@glug.org> writes:

Oh, sure, that happens. Doesn't sound like "fork" to me though...

Nicholas Geovanis

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May 15, 2002, 12:15:33 PM5/15/02
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On Mon, 13 May 2002, Sam Steingold wrote:

> conspiracy theorists and those who are offended by the menorah are not
> our user base.

Who _is_ "our user base"?

> in fact, if this will help us lose some losers, so much
> the better.

Was that the intent or just a welcome side-effect?
Oops! I forgot that lisp programmers deplore side-effects :-D
But the question stands.

> Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running RedHat7.2 GNU/Linux

* Nick Geovanis "The nuclear bomb. Does that bother you?
| IT Computing Svcs I just want you to think big"
| Northwestern Univ - Pres. Richard M. Nixon
| n-geo...@nwu.edu April 25, 1972
+------------------->

Stefan Kain

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May 17, 2002, 7:52:39 PM5/17/02
to
Erik,

Erik Naggum wrote:
> the Scheme community, but I do _not_ want to join a real political party
> or movement or whatever just because I may want to use a particular
> software product in that community.


Please read the license agreement of CLISP. There is no political party
mentioned.
Please give an explicit pointer to the section, where joining a
political party
is required for using CLISP.


> Not only has that software product
> made it clear that its constituency is intentionally not overlapping with
> the Common Lisp community,

You are pretty uninformed. CLISP strives for ANSI-compliance which
means that
any observed behaviour that violates the Standard is considered a bug.
You are absolutely free to contribute bug fixes
in order to improve CLISP's quality in this respect!

(Ups, I should not have said that! Our worst nightmare might come true,
i.e.
Erik joins the mailing-lists! HEEEEEELLLP!!! *rofl* we could use a
list-bot
that implements the ELIZA-program in order to keep him busy...)

> it has now made it clear that it is the
> intersection of a subset of the Common Lisp community _and_ some random
> political movement

Where is the statement in the source of CLISP or any accompanying file
that adherence to a particular political movement is required for the
use of CLISP? Check the mailing-lists! Where are the discussions, that
individuals of certain race, religion, nationality, political
orientation etc.
are discriminated?

Where is the evidence for your claims?
Please give an explicit pointer! No false claims please!

Criticizing the massacre of Tiananmen does not put you in a political
party.
If I recall correctly, members of all kinds of political shades all over
the
world were appalled by this crime. BTW, the lines of code that offended
your
political feelings were removed from the source. Clisp takes care of
everybody's
political feelings, even yours!

Well, I agree, that the clisp source was not the best forum to express
one's
feelings towards the mentioned events.

> _and_ some random group with some sort of religious
> ties.

Where is the statement in the source of CLISP or any accompanying file
that
membership to a particular religion is required for the use of CLISP or
"rewarded" in any way, or particularly "suited"?

Please give an explicit pointer of evidence!

> I am well known for my limited patience with stupidity, but this

This limited patience does not seem to be self-referential, sadly...
you obviously have great patience with yourself.


> really takes the cake. Of course, it matches the "C is not good enough
> for me, so I have slightly altered the comment syntax" cruft,

Show us your craft! Try to implement a project of CLISP's size with the
craftsmanship that Bruno (and later Sam) applied!

Then let's compare the code quality they have produced (can be verified
by anybody who downloads the source of CLISP)
with the quality of code that you produce. Show us _your_ code, please!

> not to
> mention "I know where the right parens should go, and you don't".

We successively reformat the lisp-parts of Clisp to the commonly
accepted
parens placement style for Common Lisp. Bruno once had his preference
some
time ago. His style is now replaced. Bruno likes doers!
He does not like talkers, like you, Erik!

We translate the German comments in the source code that were written
at a time when Bruno did not foresee that Clisp would get such
widespread
international use. Is this arrogant??

"Haible", for you Antisemites out there, is definitely
not a jewish surname. It is typically German! And I am an undisputable
authourity in German in comparison to you! :-)
So you Aryans can still use Clisp without causing your reproduction
organs to
fall off or even shrink further!

(BTW, I am not a Jew. I do not have problems with the clisp banner and I
do
not have a problem with Sam. He, on the other hand, does not have a
problem with me
being a German, despite the fact that Germans have committed the worst
crimes
in the history of mankind against Jews. This is called forgiveness and
tolerance.
Try to spell that, for starters, maybe you understand what I am talking
about in
a couple of years).


> If your goal is to get only people who agree with _all_ these very
> strange ideas to use CLISP, and label everyone else "losers", feel free,

It is not clisp's goal. These strange ideas only spin around in your
head.
The _reality_ of current clisp-development has NOTHING to do with
your objections...

Maybe you should check out the developer mailing list more often than
once
in every decade...

regularly updating against the current CVS-tree and reading the cvs
check-in comments
helps a lot!

Give it a try!

P.S.: Linking clisp's development, which started more than 10 years ago,
with the
current mess in the near east is so simply outrageous...
that I am not going to waste my time to answer your
useless crappy follow-ups that will surely emerge in this thread, Erik.


Bye,
Stefan

Erik Naggum

unread,
May 18, 2002, 3:05:26 AM5/18/02
to
* Stefan Kain

| Please read the license agreement of CLISP. There is no political party
| mentioned. Please give an explicit pointer to the section, where joining
| a political party is required for using CLISP.

Please engage your brain and stop being so passive-aggressive.

| (Ups, I should not have said that! Our worst nightmare might come true,
| i.e. Erik joins the mailing-lists! HEEEEEELLLP!!! *rofl* we could use a
| list-bot that implements the ELIZA-program in order to keep him busy...)

Please ask your psychiatrists or guardians to increase your dosage.

| Where is the evidence for your claims?

I quoted from the source code, you imbecile.

| Please give an explicit pointer! No false claims please!

Please give me the name of your psychiatrists and solid reference that
your IQ according to the Stanford-Binet test is at least 80. No false
claims, please.

| BTW, the lines of code that offended your political feelings were removed
| from the source.

Please realize that no political feelings were offended just because you
are an offensive idiot with emotional problems.

| Well, I agree, that the clisp source was not the best forum to express
| one's feelings towards the mentioned events.

Please prove solid evidence of the best forum to express such feelings
and prove irrefutably that it is different from the clisp sources.

| Please give an explicit pointer of evidence!

Please give me explicit evidence that you are for real. German birth
certificates are not sufficient, as any second-generation Nazi cloning
experiment would probably be genetically identical and you could have
stolen one of those.

| This limited patience does not seem to be self-referential, sadly...
| you obviously have great patience with yourself.

Please give an explicit pointer to your evidence for this claim.

| Show us your craft! Try to implement a project of CLISP's size with the
| craftsmanship that Bruno (and later Sam) applied!

Please show me the law that forbids criticism of a stupid engineering
choice without having to do something better according to your standards.

| Then let's compare the code quality they have produced (can be verified
| by anybody who downloads the source of CLISP) with the quality of code
| that you produce. Show us _your_ code, please!

Look, is your particular psychosis named after you or your doctor?

| He does not like talkers, like you, Erik!

Please give pointers to explicit evidence of both of your claims.

| "Haible", for you Antisemites out there, is definitely not a jewish
| surname.

Please prove all of your explicit and implicit claims. Please prove that
all charges against you for racially motivated violence have been dropped.
Please prove that none of your ancestors were war criminals.

| It is typically German!

Please provide a government-approved list of what is typically German and
prove that what you claim is on it is actually on it. Please translate
this list to at least 120 languages, as nobody in their right mind speaks
German, anymore, and prove that no translation errors were made.

| And I am an undisputable authourity in German in comparison to you! :-)

Please give an explicit pointer to your credentials and that not a single
human being would dispute your authority nor that any such human being
could possibly exist.

Please prove that the stupid grin on your face is a removable feature.

| So you Aryans can still use Clisp without causing your reproduction
| organs to fall off or even shrink further!

Please prove that you are not a dickless eunuch. Please prove that your
organ is not a reproduction. (It's _reproductive_, you blathering idiot!)

| (BTW, I am not a Jew.

Please prove that not a single birthing woman on your maternal side
shares any genes with any of the 12 tribes of Israel. 40,000 years
should be enough for a background check.

| I do not have problems with the clisp banner and I do not have a problem

Please prove that you do not have any problems.

| He, on the other hand, does not have a problem with me being a German,
| despite the fact that Germans have committed the worst crimes in the
| history of mankind against Jews.

I shall accept this without proof because it is illegal in Germany to
question this historical event, and that probably encompasses asking for
proof of the bloody obvious, even though this kind of behavior also seems
to be a peculiar trait with severely braindamaged German by-products.

| This is called forgiveness and tolerance.

Please prove this with a survey of at least 10% of the earth population
who agree with you about the meaning of these terms.

| Try to spell that, for starters, maybe you understand what I am talking
| about in a couple of years).

Please give me pointers to solid evidence that you understand what you
are talking about.

| It is not clisp's goal.

Please quote the section of the license that states CLISP's goals and
prove that it is different from what you say it is different from.

| These strange ideas only spin around in your head.

Please provide a pointer to the evidence of this claim.

| The _reality_ of current clisp-development has NOTHING to do with your
| objections...

Please provide a pointer to a scientific article proving this point.
Please acquire a consensus of all German philosophers about the nature of
"reality" and prove that they tall talk about the same thing.

| Maybe you should check out the developer mailing list more often than
| once in every decade... regularly updating against the current CVS-tree
| and reading the cvs check-in comments helps a lot!

Please provide corroborated evidence of double-blind tests that show that
your recommendations are not harmful to normal people and that they would
not end up like you.

| Give it a try!

Please give me pointers to some evidence that you have the proper German
government approvals to suggest any course of action to others, proof of
your malsuggestion insurance, and provide evidence that your brain damage
was a preexisting condition and was not caused by what you suggest.

| P.S.: Linking clisp's development, which started more than 10 years ago,
| with the current mess in the near east is so simply outrageous...

Please prove this claim.

| that I am not going to waste my time to answer your useless crappy
| follow-ups that will surely emerge in this thread, Erik.

Please provide solid evidence of how you know the future.

I seriously doubt that medical science will find a cure for you, Stefan,
but you could make medical history if you donate your brain to science
_today_! Give it a try! I personally guarantee you that you would not
feel any differently about the world you live in, but we would. Thank
you for not being a Jew -- they have enough problems as it is. If you
feel particularly generous, consider recycling the rest of yourself, too
-- I do not eat pork because pigs are more sentient and intelligent than
many people much like you, but feeding you to pigs would be perfectly OK.

If you feel like getting a better brain after you donate your current
non-vital organ, and maybe want to appear to be something that would pass
for a human if you do not post or speak, let me know. I am always open
to the wonders of medical technology when it comes to things like you.
Enabling something like you to post to USENET would have been impossible
only a few years ago, for instance. Needless to say, I do not consider
your ability to work on CLISP to be an achievement, but I am sure the
others on that team know how to express their gratitude for your special
abilities. If I were them, however, I would consider flushing you down
the toilet, in a public relations effort.

Or maybe someone should just send "(quit)" to you? That would be good.

lin8080

unread,
May 18, 2002, 3:41:34 PM5/18/02
to

Oleg schrieb:

> Bob Nelson <nels...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> > Just compiled and executed ``clisp'' for the first time:
...


> > i i i i i i i ooooo o ooooooo ooooo ooooo
> > I I I I I I I 8 8 8 8 8 o 8 8
> > I \ `+' / I 8 8 8 8 8 8
> > \ `-+-' / 8 8 8 ooooo 8oooo
> > `-__|__-' 8 8 8 8 8
> > | 8 o 8 8 o 8 8
> > ------+------ ooooo 8oooooo ooo8ooo ooooo 8
> >
> > * Of what significance is the menorah symbol in the context of this
> > application?

> I have heard that circumcision had something to do with it...

ups*
... and I thought this is a kind of tree structure when I saw this the
first time.

But I use windows, clisp starts with a *.bat file and so I added this:
@echo off
echo (*_*)
echo..................
c:\clisp\lisp.exe -M ...

bye
stefan


(*_*)
.................


i i i i i i i

I I I I I I I

I \ `+´ / I
\ `-+-´ /
`-__|__-´
|
------+------

and this is a tree structure, right?


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