Why is Lisp attacked on Reddit almost as often as Republicans?

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jmckitrick

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Oct 27, 2006, 2:33:15 PM10/27/06
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I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
often there? Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
switched?

Bill Atkins

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Oct 27, 2006, 3:30:54 PM10/27/06
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"jmckitrick" <j_mck...@yahoo.com> writes:

Why is it attacked anywhere?

jmckitrick

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Oct 27, 2006, 3:51:39 PM10/27/06
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On Oct 27, 3:30 pm, Bill Atkins <atk...@rpi.edu> wrote:

I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
target on Reddit. Just wondering why.

Ron Garret

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Oct 27, 2006, 4:14:36 PM10/27/06
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In article <1161978698.9...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"jmckitrick" <j_mck...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator. And because they famously
abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

rg

jmckitrick

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Oct 27, 2006, 5:04:04 PM10/27/06
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On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > target on Reddit. Just wondering why.

> Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator. And because they famously
> abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
it? Are they pro-Python? Anti-Lisp?

pTymN

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Oct 27, 2006, 5:40:22 PM10/27/06
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Its the parenthesis, mostly. That's the first thing that stops the
people that I show it to.

Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.

That said, I doubt that there ever were as many republicans as there
were independants who favored the republican philosphy of 15 years ago
slightly over the democratic rheteric, but really just wanted someone
to say, geez, let's legalize pot. :-P

Also, fear of the unknown (Lisp, Muslims) would seem to be a good
enough reason to hate something instead of understand it, and then
choose to rationally hate it.

jmckitrick

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Oct 27, 2006, 5:44:53 PM10/27/06
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On Oct 27, 4:14 pm, Ron Garret <rNOSPA...@flownet.com> wrote:
> > I know there are plenty of reasons, but Lisp seems to be a favorite
> > target on Reddit. Just wondering why.

> Because Reddit was funded by Y-Combinator. And because they famously
> abandoned Lisp in favor of Python.

I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with

Bill Atkins

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Oct 27, 2006, 6:37:03 PM10/27/06
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"jmckitrick" <j_mck...@yahoo.com> writes:

It doesn't matter?

John Thingstad

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Oct 27, 2006, 7:39:59 PM10/27/06
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:33:15 +0200, jmckitrick <j_mck...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there? Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?
>

Learn to search google groups.
Then read the numerous mails on this subject in the past.
I feel enough has already been said.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

dus...@gmail.com

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Oct 27, 2006, 8:03:35 PM10/27/06
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The past few days have been particularily brutal, but it seems to me
that there haven't been any direct attacks, more like criticisms hoping
to provoke improvement. Sort of a "we hate lisp only because we love
it, and wish it were better / popular / more modern."

Not at all like it is with the Republicans.

dus...@gmail.com

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Oct 27, 2006, 8:08:05 PM10/27/06
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You seriously don't know why Y-Combinator's funding matters?

Go here:
http://www.paulgraham.com/summerfounder.html

Wade Humeniuk

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Oct 27, 2006, 8:59:17 PM10/27/06
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Why does a teenager rebel against its parents? Same old.

W

jmckitrick

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Oct 27, 2006, 11:46:36 PM10/27/06
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On Oct 27, 8:08 pm, dust...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> > it? Are they pro-Python? Anti-Lisp?

> You seriously don't know why Y-Combinator's funding matters?
>
> Go here:http://www.paulgraham.com/summerfounder.html


Ah. I did not know that. If anyone had said 'PG's company' I would
have gotten that. :-)
I just didn't know that was the connection. Thanks.

sanky...@gmail.com

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Oct 28, 2006, 1:32:28 AM10/28/06
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I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
by "attacked on reddit". Are there articles on reddit criticizing
lisp?

Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
lisp fan anymore?

sanket.

Javier

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Oct 28, 2006, 9:23:10 AM10/28/06
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sanky...@gmail.com ha escrito:

> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> by "attacked on reddit". Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> lisp?
>
> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
> lisp fan anymore?

Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
are running out like wind.
Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
any other language may take 5 times less).
So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
others to do the same stupidity.
Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
and laugh when reading all this nonsense.

Pascal Costanza

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Oct 28, 2006, 9:50:06 AM10/28/06
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sanky...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> by "attacked on reddit". Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> lisp?

I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has
always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.

BTW, most languages are attacked by someone for all kinds of reasons.

> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
> lisp fan anymore?

IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
different mindsets.


Pascal

--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Common Lisp Document Repository: http://cdr.eurolisp.org
Closer to MOP & ContextL: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/

Javier

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Oct 28, 2006, 10:05:31 AM10/28/06
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Pascal Costanza ha escrito:


> > Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
> > lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
> > lisp fan anymore?
>
> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
> different mindsets.

Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.

Pascal Costanza

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Oct 28, 2006, 10:22:33 AM10/28/06
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No, he said so all the time. You should read his essays more carefully.

Javier

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Oct 28, 2006, 11:28:05 AM10/28/06
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Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Javier wrote:
> > Pascal Costanza ha escrito:
> >
> >
> >>> Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
> >>> lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
> >>> lisp fan anymore?
> >> IIUC, he still is, but doesn't require the people he finances to be fans
> >> of Lisp as well. That's probably a good idea. Different people have
> >> different mindsets.
> >
> > Ironically, when money enters the game, he opens his mind, and
> > recognize that the important thing is not the language but the idea.
>
> No, he said so all the time. You should read his essays more carefully.

He takes a lot of time to critique languages like Java (which he
recognize he is not an expert in), and we all know how much time he
invested on saying how good is Lisp.

John Thingstad

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Oct 28, 2006, 11:42:58 AM10/28/06
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1. Lisp != Common Lisp
2. Arc is still in progress (He warned that it wolud take time)
3. You can do real work in nearly every language
4. Most people here are "real" programmers
5. Most Java programmers never read this "nonsense"
6. Whining about it, however, is a waste of time. If you don't like CL use
Java.

Marc Battyani

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Oct 28, 2006, 12:18:53 PM10/28/06
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"Javier" <jav...@gmail.com> wrote

>
>
> He takes a lot of time to critique languages like Java (which he
> recognize he is not an expert in), and we all know how much time he
> invested on saying how good is Lisp.

For sure, you are less biaised as you know neither languages...

Marc
(feeding the trolls today)


Pascal Costanza

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Oct 28, 2006, 1:19:23 PM10/28/06
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No contradiction here: He says that Lisp is good because Lisp lets you
focus on your ideas. Java is bad because it requires you to focus on the
language instead of your ideas.

As I said, you should read his essays more carefully.

Lars Rune Nøstdal

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Oct 28, 2006, 1:09:54 PM10/28/06
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..and what are you doing?

--
Lars Rune Nøstdal
http://lars.nostdal.org/

Tayssir John Gabbour

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Oct 28, 2006, 1:47:19 PM10/28/06
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Pascal Costanza wrote:
> sanky...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> > by "attacked on reddit". Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> > lisp?
>
> I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has
> always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.

I don't think Lisp is "attacked" on Reddit. I read it often, and by and
large the discussion of Lisp is reasonable. Yesterday was unusual for
having a minor flamewar about the finer points of Naggumnomics.


Tayssir

jmckitrick

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Oct 28, 2006, 4:20:35 PM10/28/06
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On Oct 28, 1:47 pm, "Tayssir John Gabbour" <tayss_te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > I don't know, I don't read reddit. But I wouldn't be surprised. Lisp has
> > always been attacked throughout its history for all kinds of reasons.I don't think Lisp is "attacked" on Reddit. I read it often, and by and

> large the discussion of Lisp is reasonable. Yesterday was unusual for
> having a minor flamewar about the finer points of Naggumnomics.

I quit reading reddit as often, mostly because I'm sick of the
politics, not to mention the bias.

But I *do* seem to recall seeing a lot of 'Lisp is lame because...'
posts, and less comments in the same vein about other languages.

I was totally unaware of the Y-Collaborator factor, since I haven't
been to c.l.l. much lately.

steve....@gmail.com

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Oct 28, 2006, 4:43:15 PM10/28/06
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Neither. Python drives me nuts, and I miss Lisp, but I'm not the only
person working on reddit, so we use what we can collectively use best.

steve @ reddit

dus...@gmail.com

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Oct 28, 2006, 4:56:37 PM10/28/06
to

Javier wrote:
> sanky...@gmail.com ha escrito:
>
> > I am sorry guys but I am a newbie, and I don't understand what you mean
> > by "attacked on reddit". Are there articles on reddit criticizing
> > lisp?
> >
> > Also, I think I missed the Paul Graham story. I have been reading his
> > lisp books, and he sounds like a die-hard lisp fan. So is he not a
> > lisp fan anymore?
>
> Paul Graham is a great troll. ;-)
> First, he writes books and claim that Lisp is (was always) the Last One
> Thing you'll ever need. Then he start saying that CL sucks and that Arc
> is going to substitute it. No working Arc is ever produced. His essays
> are running out like wind.
> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).

Eric Raymond:
"LISP is worth learning for a different reason - the profound
enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That
experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days,
even if you never actually use LISP itself a lot. "

> So, now that they have mastered on Lisp, they encounter that all they
> learn is useless, so they come comp.lang.lisp and try to convince
> others to do the same stupidity.
> Meanwhile, real programmers are wining real money programming on Java,
> and laugh when reading all this nonsense.

Sadly, there may be some truth to what you are saying. Some.

Alok

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Oct 28, 2006, 9:27:06 PM10/28/06
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steve....@gmail.com writes:

> jmckitrick wrote:
> > I remember the Python switch, but what does the funding have to do with
> > it? Are they pro-Python? Anti-Lisp?
>
> Neither. Python drives me nuts, and I miss Lisp, but I'm not the only
> person working on reddit, so we use what we can collectively use best.
>
> steve @ reddit
One fine day some time ago I downloaded a shiny new version of a language,
which is named after a fat reptile, that I had read a lot of good about.
Sure enough it came with a lot of goodies and I enthusiastically fired it
up. Tinkered a little and wanted to quit. So I keyed in

>>> ^D
... error invalid syntax. ...
>>> bye
... not defined ...
>>> quit
use quit() ...
>>> exit
use exit() ...
>>> ^Z
c:/>

Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a
grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
Alok

John Thingstad

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Oct 29, 2006, 4:11:03 AM10/29/06
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On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:27:06 +0100, Alok <al...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>>>> ^D
> ... error invalid syntax. ...
>>>> bye
> ... not defined ...
>>>> quit
> use quit() ...
>>>> exit
> use exit() ...
>>>> ^Z
> c:/>
>
> Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a
> grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
> Alok

Makes perfect sense to me.
For one thing you rarely use (or rather develop using) Python from the
command line.
It is primarily used in a shell within emacs.
It's primary purpose is to execute python commands.
In this case quit() gets you out as it advices.
If you are that easily deterred it's all you..

Alok

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Oct 29, 2006, 4:46:00 AM10/29/06
to
"John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:

> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:27:06 +0100, Alok <al...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>>> ^D
> > ... error invalid syntax. ...
> >>>> bye
> > ... not defined ...
> >>>> quit
> > use quit() ...
> >>>> exit
> > use exit() ...
> >>>> ^Z
> > c:/>
> >
> > Ok I get that "There's only one way to do it", but it sure sucks like a
> > grumpy old geezer. Never had to meet the geezer again.
> > Alok
>
> Makes perfect sense to me.
> For one thing you rarely use (or rather develop using) Python from the
> command line.
> It is primarily used in a shell within emacs.

Does Python have a slime/swank like capability too? What emacs shell do you
use for Python?

> It's primary purpose is to execute python commands.
> In this case quit() gets you out as it advices.
> If you are that easily deterred it's all you..

Hey maybe its me, but I was not deterred. I was plain annoyed. The reader
would parse exit, quit ^D but still not do what is expected. Heck, it knew
what I wanted and but still refused to execute the command until I spelled
what it wants to hear. Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be
typed. If that is not grumpy, I don't know what is.

Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk

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Oct 29, 2006, 5:14:20 AM10/29/06
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Alok <al...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> I was plain annoyed. The reader would parse exit, quit ^D but still
> not do what is expected.

It parses exit as a variable name, which refers to a funcallable object
whose string representation contains the explanation.

exit doesn't work in SBCL either:

* exit

debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread
#<THREAD "initial thread" {A6893C1}>:
The variable EXIT is unbound.

Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL.

restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level.

(SB-INT:EVAL-IN-LEXENV EXIT #<NULL-LEXENV>)

nor CLISP. Do you expect the SBCL and CLISP readers to treat "exit"
specially? Why do you expect this from Python but not from Lisp?

^D works on Unix. It's not processed by Python but by the Unix
terminal driver.

> Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be typed.

Complain to Microsoft. This is a "feature" of Windows terminal driver,
Python has nothing to do with it except by using the standard I/O
facilities provided by the OS.

--
__("< Marcin Kowalczyk
\__/ qrc...@knm.org.pl
^^ http://qrnik.knm.org.pl/~qrczak/

Stefan Scholl

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Oct 29, 2006, 5:41:53 AM10/29/06
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jmckitrick <j_mck...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm not interested in political debate, but why is Lisp attacked so
> often there? Is it because Reddit started out running on Lisp, then
> switched?

It's not only reddit:

In the second paragraph of the first chapter of Practical OCaml
you can read

OCaml is not a popular language in the way that Java is a
popular language. Flame wars rarely break out over non-Lisp
languages that are not in the mainstream.


Hey, and don't forget http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SmugLispWeenie :-)


--
Web (en): http://www.no-spoon.de/ -*- Web (de): http://www.frell.de/

Stefan Scholl

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Oct 29, 2006, 5:46:20 AM10/29/06
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Pascal Costanza <p...@p-cos.net> wrote:
> BTW, most languages are attacked by someone for all kinds of reasons.

Right. Go to #lisp (IRC channel on FreeNode) and make some
grammar mistakes. ==> Your English gets attacked. q.e.d. :-)


Stefan Scholl

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Oct 29, 2006, 6:54:06 AM10/29/06
to
dus...@gmail.com wrote:
> The past few days have been particularily brutal, but it seems to me
> that there haven't been any direct attacks, more like criticisms hoping
> to provoke improvement. Sort of a "we hate lisp only because we love
> it, and wish it were better / popular / more modern."

And one important point: We want Eric back!!

John Thingstad

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Oct 29, 2006, 10:41:32 AM10/29/06
to
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:46:00 +0100, Alok <al...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Does Python have a slime/swank like capability too? What emacs shell do
> you
> use for Python?
>

python-mode for editing files.
py-shell run's the python interpreter.

Stefan Scholl

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Oct 29, 2006, 10:56:00 AM10/29/06
to

And one important point: We want Erik back!!

Alok

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Oct 29, 2006, 5:04:37 PM10/29/06
to
Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk <qrc...@knm.org.pl> writes:

> Alok <al...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > I was plain annoyed. The reader would parse exit, quit ^D but still
> > not do what is expected.
>
> It parses exit as a variable name, which refers to a funcallable object
> whose string representation contains the explanation.
>
> exit doesn't work in SBCL either:
>
> * exit
>
> debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread
> #<THREAD "initial thread" {A6893C1}>:
> The variable EXIT is unbound.
>
> Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL.
>
> restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
> 0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level.
>
> (SB-INT:EVAL-IN-LEXENV EXIT #<NULL-LEXENV>)
>
> nor CLISP. Do you expect the SBCL and CLISP readers to treat "exit"
> specially? Why do you expect this from Python but not from Lisp?
>

I have always used ^D on the CLISP impl. with readline on my WinXP
machine. And actually never used a plain CLISP shell much anyway.

I take your point that it would be non-intuitive to parse the exit
token to shutdown the reader, when the EOF signal already exists just
for this. But why is the exit token mapped to the funcallable object with
a string representation that informs how to exit, instead of leaving it
unbound and print a regular error message.

My point is, when an reader is asked to exit, it should exit, or carp
it does not know what is meant. Anything halfway (or one and a half way)
is not intuitive.

> ^D works on Unix. It's not processed by Python but by the Unix
> terminal driver.
>
> > Heck even ^Z did not work a ^Z and an enter had to be typed.
>
> Complain to Microsoft. This is a "feature" of Windows terminal driver,
> Python has nothing to do with it except by using the standard I/O
> facilities provided by the OS.

You're right, this is appears to be standard windows terminal behaviour
and I had wrongly associated the EOF signal irregularity with Python's
command line terminal. My bad, I was under false impression that the
Python reader came with its own term (Most win programs in a command
line window that I have used, don't set-up their special icon on it)

Alok

jmckitrick

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Oct 30, 2006, 12:05:45 AM10/30/06
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On Oct 29, 5:41 am, Stefan Scholl <ste...@no-spoon.de> wrote:
> In the second paragraph of the first chapter of Practical OCaml
> you can read
>
> OCaml is not a popular language in the way that Java is a
> popular language. Flame wars rarely break out over non-Lisp
> languages that are not in the mainstream.
>
> Hey, and don't forgethttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SmugLispWeenie:-)

I guess it's just a unique position enjoyed by Lisp. It's so powerful
and envied, yet so often misunderstood, it's easy to attack.

David Steuber

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Nov 5, 2006, 1:15:40 AM11/5/06
to
"pTymN" <ptym...@gmail.com> writes:

> Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
> FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.

So what prevents Lisp from the alleged agile programming paradigm?

Lisp is killed by false beliefs and parentheses. Oddly enough, I just
can't get passed the use of white space as significant. I also hate
make files.

With all the time I've spent in SLIME which rocks, I often think that
Kenny Tilton has a very good point about development systems. The
free software crowd is too obsessed with beer (my words, not his).
Most of the Windows developers don't seem to be paying for the full
cost of Visual Studio or a universal MSDN subscription.

Apple developers get some very good GUI tools to wrap the GNU compiler
collection for free.

So the bar is pretty high considering so many programmers don't like
to experiment so much. How many people ask about Lisp IDEs or plugins
for Eclipse when the former are quite available?

Mind you, I like using the free tools. SBCL is bitchen with SLIME. I
love that I can run SBCL on a different box from my SLIME session. So
I've got my biases too.

--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.

At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles

I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling

David Steuber

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Nov 5, 2006, 1:37:56 AM11/5/06
to
"Javier" <jav...@gmail.com> writes:

> Lot of people believe him, and start wasting their time learning CL. It
> takes for them 10 years to master in that language (while mastering in
> any other language may take 5 times less).

I don't agree with this. Programming is a complex activity regardless
of the language you are using. Some languages do provide better tools
for certain jobs than others, but the abstract thinking still
remains. I spent plenty of time on C and C++. When I got into Lisp,
I found that there was a whole lot about programming that I did not
know. Even if I never write another line of code in Lisp, I have
learned something valuable from it. Common Lisp is a very expressive
language. It has grown less complex than C++ or Java with all the
J2EE shit thrown in. Java only seems easier because there are more
prebuilt components due to its popularity. Just try doing something
that hasn't been done before. That in itself is a hard thing to do.

Not all programs are tinker toys.

Ken Tilton

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Nov 5, 2006, 3:39:08 AM11/5/06
to

David Steuber wrote:
> "pTymN" <ptym...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Interestingly, there is also a fair amount of AGILE IS GREAT AND DIE
>>FOR SAYING ITS NOT BEST PRACTICE DESIGN PATTERN LEET.
>
>
> So what prevents Lisp from the alleged agile programming paradigm?
>
> Lisp is killed by false beliefs and parentheses.

Rubbish. Given the fact that Lisp is growing by leaps and bounds, this
report of it's being killed greatly exagerates.

> Oddly enough, I just
> can't get passed the use of white space as significant. I also hate
> make files.
>
> With all the time I've spent in SLIME which rocks, I often think that
> Kenny Tilton has a very good point about development systems.

Oh, gosh, sorry about the "rubbish" crack!

> The
> free software crowd is too obsessed with beer (my words, not his).
> Most of the Windows developers don't seem to be paying for the full
> cost of Visual Studio or a universal MSDN subscription.
>
> Apple developers get some very good GUI tools to wrap the GNU compiler
> collection for free.
>
> So the bar is pretty high considering so many programmers don't like
> to experiment so much. How many people ask about Lisp IDEs or plugins
> for Eclipse when the former are quite available?
>
> Mind you, I like using the free tools. SBCL is bitchen with SLIME.

Lisp-NYC really does have to host a Kenny vs. The Slimeballs Smackdown
some month, him with ACL and them with SBCL/Slime. Just to make it fair
we gotta find a slimeball as smart as kenny... uh-oh.

kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with
the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack
also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do --
Mastenbrook will be crushed to learn Cello is /losing/ a library!)

--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
-- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon

David Golden

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 5:44:13 AM11/5/06
to
Ken Tilton wrote:


> kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with
> the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack
> also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do

The point of OpenAL is to do 3D spatial audio (and it does it quite
nicely). file loading and saving isn't really even part of it OpenAL
proper, that's ALUT. Support beyond a well-chosen few* is pretty
irrelevant.

*That would probably include _some_ wavs: But note it's particularly
easy to make a problematic wav file, all most applications do is
support a subset of wav files that are "nice":
http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm
- closed-source windoze applications are the worst for this,
often outputting wav files with obscure chunks that only work
right in themselves or perhaps libraries that make a point of supporting
the wav format in all its "glory" - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
format" - OpenGL/GLUT doesn't try to support every format under the sun
either.


Bill Atkins

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 9:56:57 AM11/5/06
to
Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:

> Lisp-NYC really does have to host a Kenny vs. The Slimeballs Smackdown
> some month, him with ACL and them with SBCL/Slime. Just to make it
> fair we gotta find a slimeball as smart as kenny... uh-oh.

Perfect. I'll be there with LispWorks. :-)

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 12:58:12 PM11/5/06
to

David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>
>>kt (who just discovered that the Tcl Snack library has no problem with
>>the WAV files that seem to knock OpenAl to its knees, and since Snack
>>also handles four other formats OpenAL has not a clue with what to do
>
>
> The point of OpenAL is to do 3D spatial audio (and it does it quite
> nicely).

Yes, I think OpenAL lives on in Cello for that reason, and also because
it is so lightweight. Mastenbrook will be thrilled.

> file loading and saving isn't really even part of it OpenAL
> proper, that's ALUT.

No quibbling allowed.

> Support beyond a well-chosen few* is pretty
> irrelevant.

Oh, goody, here comes the Turing equivalent argument!

>
> *That would probably include _some_ wavs: But note it's particularly
> easy to make a problematic wav file, all most applications do is
> support a subset of wav files that are "nice":
> http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm
> - closed-source windoze applications are the worst for this,
> often outputting wav files with obscure chunks that only work
> right in themselves or perhaps libraries that make a point of supporting
> the wav format in all its "glory"

You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I
am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.

> - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
> would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
> format"

You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in
another? I think we agree: Snack is a useful library and OpenAL is a
useful library if I am looking for extra aggravation rather than the
developers having to finish their job. the nice thing about the OpenAL
approach is that /everyone/ using it gets to do extra work over and over
again.

Just kidding. I appreciate that OpenAL's focus is on the 3D thing, and
with my 5.1 speakers it sounds great.

kt

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 1:04:07 PM11/5/06
to

Wait, this is a smackdown, we have to rehearse.

Seriously. And we gotta dig up Russ, because I know he loves Slime. What
I want to do is have a planning session where we spend a few pitchers,
er, hours trying to one-up each other, then once we have a decent suite
of face-offs present that in a more efficient manner, with judges
scoring each face-off.

Be an easy way for me to learn Slime (and mebbe get Franz to enhance
their IDE).

kt

David Golden

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 2:11:15 PM11/5/06
to
Ken Tilton wrote:

> No quibbling allowed.

Oh, go on, just a little:

ALUT was formally separated out a while back, so the distinction is
increasingly rather than decreasingly important as OpenAL and ALUT no
longer necessarily share one release cycle. There are still
old "combo" releases out in the wild (causing grief, because they had
to bite the bullet and break binary backward compat to reverse the
unfortunate initial choice of munging the two together). If your
openal and alut _are_ mixed together, you might well be using an
obsolete release, could happen if the last time you visited the openal
site was more than a few months ago!

Even still, I wouldn't guarantee the freealut devs have done
a particularly "complete" wav support job, I haven't really
investigated, I imagine most people just care that the most common wav
subformat for sound effects (16-bit PCM wav I'd say) works. This is
even touched on in the alut spec, which at least defines behaviour in
the unsupported wav subformat case:
http://www.openal.org/openal_webstf/specs/alut.html#alutGetMIMETypes

> You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I
> am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.
>

[Sorry, just out of interest: "sketchy" here means "bad/disreputable"?
Usage of "sketchy" here (Ireland) means, well, "like a sketch", "yet to
be 'inked in'" , e.g. "details are pretty sketchy at the moment". So of
course a site could be "sketchy", incomplete, but that doesn't mean it
would necessarily have bad wavs in the bizarre-format sense]

>> - I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
>> would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
>> format"
>
> You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in
> another?

Well, yeah, in principle. Thoguh libsndfile also exists and does a
pretty good job, and is probably smaller and easier to ffi-bridge to
lisp if you really just want to load and save the full spectrum of wavs
http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/
(lgpl licensed though, dunno where you'd stand on that)


Russell McManus

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 3:02:22 PM11/5/06
to

Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:

> Seriously. And we gotta dig up Russ, because I know he loves Slime.

Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...

-russ

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 4:22:41 PM11/5/06
to

David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>No quibbling allowed.
>
>
> Oh, go on, just a little:
>
> ALUT was formally separated out a while back, so the distinction is
> increasingly rather than decreasingly important as OpenAL and ALUT no
> longer necessarily share one release cycle. There are still
> old "combo" releases out in the wild (causing grief, because they had
> to bite the bullet and break binary backward compat to reverse the
> unfortunate initial choice of munging the two together). If your
> openal and alut _are_ mixed together, you might well be using an
> obsolete release, could happen if the last time you visited the openal
> site was more than a few months ago!

(> 3-years 3-months) -> T?

I was wondering if I should try an upgrade, but I never got the sense
that OpenAL was even active. Checking the site I see it is just starting
to pick up steam.

>
> Even still, I wouldn't guarantee the freealut devs have done
> a particularly "complete" wav support job, I haven't really
> investigated, I imagine most people just care that the most common wav
> subformat for sound effects (16-bit PCM wav I'd say) works. This is
> even touched on in the alut spec, which at least defines behaviour in
> the unsupported wav subformat case:
> http://www.openal.org/openal_webstf/specs/alut.html#alutGetMIMETypes
>
>
>>You mean like Snack? Because it has not failed on a WAV file yet and I
>>am downloading them from some pretty sketchy sites.
>>
>
> [Sorry, just out of interest: "sketchy" here means "bad/disreputable"?

It's a new usage amongst the young folk over here in the colonies. More
like "of dubious morality or integrity or safety". Hang on... ok, one
web site suggests you Brits would translate it as "dodgy".

> Usage of "sketchy" here (Ireland) means, well, "like a sketch", "yet to
> be 'inked in'" , e.g. "details are pretty sketchy at the moment". So of
> course a site could be "sketchy", incomplete, but that doesn't mean it
> would necessarily have bad wavs in the bizarre-format sense]
>
>
>>>- I suspect the OpenALers' attitude
>>>would be "use some other specialist library to load/convert to a sane
>>>format"
>>
>>You mean like Snack, which can load a file in one format and save in
>>another?
>
>
> Well, yeah, in principle. Thoguh libsndfile also exists and does a
> pretty good job, and is probably smaller and easier to ffi-bridge to

> lisp...

FFI? PWUAHAHAHAHHAHA!:

(tcl-eval *tk* "snack::sound s -load /alg1/sounds/errors/fart42.wav")
(tcl-eval *tk* "s play")

The beauty of Celtk is that I have the C API when I need it (OpenGL,
callbacks, true event handlers (aside to TFB the Younger: Odd, I did not
mention performance. (hint))) and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to cook up
bindings, as with the Snack dll.

> if you really just want to load and save the full spectrum of wavs
> http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsndfile/
> (lgpl licensed though, dunno where you'd stand on that)

I think I LLGPLed everything recently.

Thx for the heads up on OpenAL. Game developer?

Upgrading OpenAL now....

Bill Atkins

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 5:17:58 PM11/5/06
to
Russell McManus <ru...@cl-user.org> writes:

> Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
> Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...

This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs (this is also
why ACL has lost the showdown before it's even begun :-). Even
without lw-add-ons, LispWorks's editor *is* an Emacs - an Emacs in
Common Lisp, to boot. lw-add-ons just brings some of SLIME's ideas
into the editor.

Zach Beane

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 5:47:22 PM11/5/06
to
Bill Atkins <atk...@rpi.edu> writes:

Allegro's ELI predates slime by a long, long time.

Zach

David Golden

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 7:09:53 PM11/5/06
to
Ken Tilton wrote:

> you Brits

Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

> would translate it as "dodgy".

Fair enough. "dodgy" is in wide usage over here...

> and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to
> cook up bindings, as with the Snack dll.

Well, I guess that is pretty handy. TCL's in an "uncanny valley"
just before lisp for me though, creepy writing in it. :-)

> Game developer?

Maybe one day. Largely dependent on actually finishing
something started once in a while, rather than anything
external, of course.

> Upgrading OpenAL now....

Good good. If it's really been literally years since your
last update, there have probably been a fair few improvements.
Capture device support might be fun if you haven't played
with it before, in OpenAL 1.1 (June 2005) it's part of the core.


Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 8:28:42 PM11/5/06
to

Bill Atkins wrote:
> Russell McManus <ru...@cl-user.org> writes:
>
>
>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
>>Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
>>pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...
>
>
> This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs

Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.

(round one to kenny)

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 5, 2006, 8:51:35 PM11/5/06
to

David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>you Brits
>
>
> Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

I was going to make fun of you but then I checked -- Omigod! Scotland
and Wales, but not Ireland! Altho /Northern Ireland/ takes a hit. So WTF
is Ireland's status? Colony? Occupied territory? Satellite? Are you in
the UN? Nato? This is all very confusing.

>
>
>>would translate it as "dodgy".
>
>
> Fair enough. "dodgy" is in wide usage over here...
>
>
>>and tcl-eval when i am too lazy to
>>cook up bindings, as with the Snack dll.
>
>
> Well, I guess that is pretty handy. TCL's in an "uncanny valley"
> just before lisp for me though, creepy writing in it. :-)

I can handle cutting/pasting 40 characters from the Snack tutorial. :)

>
>
>>Game developer?
>
>
> Maybe one day. Largely dependent on actually finishing
> something started once in a while, rather than anything
> external, of course.

Typical Lispnik.

It is pretty interesting now using my Cello (and Cells (and Lisp)) toy
to do An Actual Commercial Application -- almost indecently easy. Makes
up for the internal logic almost killing me a few times.

I keep telling youse people, go to a cocktail party, wait for someone
smart to start whining about the damn vertical app they have to use, and
voila!, startup!

>
>
>>Upgrading OpenAL now....
>
>
> Good good. If it's really been literally years since your
> last update, there have probably been a fair few improvements.
> Capture device support might be fun if you haven't played
> with it before, in OpenAL 1.1 (June 2005) it's part of the core.

June 2005? They count months differently in Ireland. Yeah, fortunately I
buy a new system once a year and re-install tools from web sites so I
never fall /that/ far behind.

Anyway, I just figured out why the galloping horse passing from my left
to my right sounded so godawful as it passed me -- I was having it pass
directly /over/ me. Perhaps that is what it sounds like that. Anyway, I
now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much safer.

Hmmm, time for a 7.1 system?

prabuinet

unread,
Nov 6, 2006, 12:12:33 AM11/6/06
to
Languages like c# or java or whatever else may be used by a programmer
to solve
the real world problems, ofcourse,

but,

Lisp is not only usefull to solve the real world problems, but first,
it is intended to solve
the problems of a Programmer, which is less cared by other languages.

(if (not (? am i right))
(correct 'me))

(bye 'prabu)

Bill Atkins

unread,
Nov 6, 2006, 9:37:17 AM11/6/06
to
Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:

> Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
>
> (round one to kenny)
>
> kt

Uh oh, it looks like my barely marginal familiarity with the ACL IDE
is going to work against me after all!

David Golden

unread,
Nov 6, 2006, 7:13:17 PM11/6/06
to
Ken Tilton wrote:

> So WTF is Ireland's status?Colony? Occupied territory?


> Satellite? Are you in the UN? Nato?

Uhm. getting a bit OT, but:

The island of Ireland is divided in two: Northern Ireland (6 counties)
and the Republic of Ireland (26 counties). The former is part of the
UK, the latter an independent* state and euro-currency EU member.

See relevant wikipedia entry, maybe, usual wiki caveats apply:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology)#Problems_with_use_of_terms

* nominally independent - by recent evidence one should probably
consider the Republic of Ireland to be a puppet/satellite of the
USA/corporations at the moment (see shannon airport), and of course
it's an EU member which doesn't much help with "independence".

> Anyway, I now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much
> safer.

With exaggerated doppler effect, I trust? :-)

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 6, 2006, 7:53:50 PM11/6/06
to

David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
>

>>Anyway, I now have the horse galloping in a circle around me, much
>>safer.
>
>
> With exaggerated doppler effect, I trust? :-)

That's a trick question, right? There is no relative motion if the horse
is traveling in a circle. Also, I confess I was too lazy to calculate
the velocity and direction vectors. I do have a nice siren WAV I could
use to experiment with generating a Doppler effect, but it is crunch
time and the app does not need it so I must resist the temptation. :(

kt

ps. OT? In comp.lang.lisp? These yobbos don't have the concept. :) k

David Golden

unread,
Nov 6, 2006, 9:28:20 PM11/6/06
to
Ken Tilton wrote:


> That's a trick question, right? There is no relative motion if the
> horse is traveling in a circle.

Totally a trick question. Ahem. Or I could have just been looking for
an excuse to mention the cool doppler support in OpenAL and completely
overlooking that, of course...

Still, if you move the centre of the source's circle a bit away from the
listener, and plug in the velocities appropriately, then you should get
a pronounced doppler effect, listener<->source radial velocity
component will then be varying...

Andras Simon

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 10:06:32 AM11/7/06
to
Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:

> Bill Atkins wrote:
> > Russell McManus <ru...@cl-user.org> writes:
> >
> >>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
> >>Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> >>pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...
> > This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
>
> Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.

Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
is not just a set of key bindings.

This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful things
that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
using slime.

Andras

Rob Thorpe

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 12:24:38 PM11/7/06
to
David Golden wrote:
> Ken Tilton wrote:
>
> > you Brits
>
> Ooh... Insert obligatory "Irish, not British" rant here...

I live in Ireland too. It would be interesting sometime to have an
Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.

Ken Tilton

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 12:40:18 PM11/7/06
to

Andras Simon wrote:
> Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Bill Atkins wrote:
>>
>>>Russell McManus <ru...@cl-user.org> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
>>>>Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
>>>>pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...
>>>
>>>This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
>>
>>Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
>
>
> Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
> keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
> remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
> is not just a set of key bindings.

Yes, Andras, I think we all know that, and Mr. Atkins was free to pursue
that line of ....... you miserable toad! You come into my house with
those pointless features! You and what other tools are going to kick
ACL's ass? One more step and the ACL project manager rips ASDF a new one!!!!

>
> This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful things
> that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
> already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
> completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
> constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
> using slime.

<cough> Actually, that was the point of the Smackdown, education of
everyone about Slime and the AllegroCL IDE. Perhaps you missed the
beginning of the subthread? It happens.

Andras Simon

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 5:49:52 PM11/7/06
to
Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:

> Andras Simon wrote:
> > Ken Tilton <kent...@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >>Bill Atkins wrote:
> >>
> >>>Russell McManus <ru...@cl-user.org> writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Well, to be fair, what I really love is Emacs. And slime tastes like
> >>>>Emacs so I love that. I've heard that Lispworks with Edi's add-ons is
> >>>>pretty Emacs like. I really should give that a whirl...
> >>>
> >>>This is why ACL doesn't appeal to me - it's not Emacs
> >>
> >>Set the option "Emacs mode" for the editor.
> > Will that enable dired, ediff, vc-diff, split-window, dabbrev-expand,
> > keyboard macros, query-replace-regexp etc? Will it connect to a
> > remotely running lisp? Is its programming interface documented? Emacs
> > is not just a set of key bindings.
>
> Yes, Andras, I think we all know that, and Mr. Atkins was free to
> pursue that line of

He speaks for the LW IDE, and its editor is also not a true emacs,
maybe that's why.

> ....... you miserable toad! You come into my house
> with those pointless features! You and what other tools are going to
> kick ACL's ass? One more step and the ACL project manager rips ASDF a
> new one!!!!

Sorry, I must admit you lost me here (linguistic barrier or some
such).

>
> > This is not to say that the ACL IDE doesn't have tons of useful
> > things
> > that emacs/slime currently lacks. (Although, if you ask me, slime
> > already has tons of useful features that I don't care about... fuzzy
> > completion and presentations come to mind.) If you want to know how
> > constrained a slimer would feel using ACL's IDE, just imagine yourself
> > using slime.
>
> <cough> Actually, that was the point of the Smackdown, education of
> everyone about Slime and the AllegroCL IDE. Perhaps you missed the
> beginning of the subthread? It happens.

Oh, I needn't miss the beginning to miss the point! Anyways, have a
nice Smackdown!

Andras

David Golden

unread,
Nov 7, 2006, 7:04:02 PM11/7/06
to
Rob Thorpe wrote:

> I live in Ireland too. It would be interesting sometime to have an
> Lispers meeting in Ireland, if New York can have one, why not.

Well, sure I guess. LUIGI: Lisp User Interest Group of Ireland?
("ILUG" is already thoroughly taken by the irish linux folk)