Reddit rewritten in Python

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Ravi

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Dec 5, 2005, 9:06:38 AM12/5/05
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Bill Atkins

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Dec 5, 2005, 10:32:32 AM12/5/05
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And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

nall...@gmail.com

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:37:51 AM12/6/05
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http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html

here is a longer post describing why they switched

Nick

Adam Connor

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Dec 6, 2005, 7:58:48 AM12/6/05
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nall...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html

Seems like the core of it is that they wanted to be rooted in a bigger
community, with the associated libraries, etc.

Adam Connor

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Dec 6, 2005, 8:27:42 AM12/6/05
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I might add... if the folks in a PG-associated startup aren't convinced
to stick with Lisp, it is going to make other folks wonder why they
should bother even considering it. So, it's very unfortunate.

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Dec 6, 2005, 10:14:55 AM12/6/05
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But if the Lisp version is more readable and extensible, it should be
easy to mirror whatever features the Python people will add. ;)

That'd be more of a nice showcase.

--
Majority, n.: That quality that distinguishes a crime from a law.

M Jared Finder

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:25:37 AM12/6/05
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nall...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html
>
> here is a longer post describing why they switched

Sounds like they had two very valid reasons to switching away from Lisp:

* A lack of cross-platform threading and networking libraries.
* A lack of an existing community on which to borrow code examples from.

The lack of cross-platform threading and networking must be a huge pain
when developing a web application.

-- MJF

Marc Battyani

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:31:02 AM12/6/05
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"Adam Connor" <ad...@austin.rr.com> wrote:

IMO they started with Lisp just to please PG. Their reasons to switch are
pretty lame. Don't tell me they couldn't afford to buy a commercial Lisp for
instance.

Marc


Message has been deleted

jayessay

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:49:22 AM12/6/05
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"Adam Connor" <ad...@austin.rr.com> writes:

Sort of as an aside here, but has anyone else wasted a little time
over on c.l.p lately and seen the ongoing thread about poor
"packaging" for python and its libs? If you substituted "Lisp" for
"Python" you could easily be confused into thinking you were on c.l.l,
both from the "trolls" writings and the responses to them. Go figure.


/Jon

--
'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com

jayessay

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:52:18 AM12/6/05
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"Adam Connor" <ad...@austin.rr.com> writes:

> I might add... if the folks in a PG-associated startup aren't convinced
> to stick with Lisp, it is going to make other folks wonder why they
> should bother even considering it.

Why? PG seems to really like Python and is also on record as not much
liking Common Lisp. May not be surprising at all given this.

Admin Snewton

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:05:18 PM12/6/05
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> IMO they started with Lisp just to please PG. Their reasons to switch are
> pretty lame. Don't tell me they couldn't afford to buy a commercial Lisp for
> instance.

That is completely false. We used Lisp because I was interested in
Lisp, and that was long before the SFP or reddit. I still love Lisp

Yes, we could *afford* to buy a commercial Lisp, but we didn't want to.

Rainer Joswig

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:11:45 PM12/6/05
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Am 06.12.2005 17:25 Uhr schrieb "M Jared Finder" unter <ja...@hpalace.com>
in LsmdneoaSZs...@speakeasy.net:

Especially if you deploy on exactly one operating system and one hardware
platform, this is a huge pain. Also if you take from the community, but
aren't prepared to give back. And also when you got funding, but
you prefer to spend the money on girls/games/drugs/music/... and not
commercial software. ;-)

But maybe with a rewrite the software gets useful. I haven't
yet got an idea what that site could do for me. I'm no expert
on this, but what would be the advantage over, say, http://del.icio.us/ ?


steve....@gmail.com

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:12:16 PM12/6/05
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PS - That last post was from steve@reddit.

Steve Huffman

Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:42:19 PM12/6/05
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han...@schlund.de (Hannah Schroeter) writes:

> I don't know why you necessarily need threads for doing I/O and
> network bound work.
>
> I tend to do things like that in an event-driven fashion, even in
> C++, where pthreads is just a few letters away.

Multiplexing activity on several sockets (C: select / poll / epoll)
is not provided by portable Common Lisp either.

--
__("< Marcin Kowalczyk
\__/ qrc...@knm.org.pl
^^ http://qrnik.knm.org.pl/~qrczak/

Peter Herth

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Dec 6, 2005, 12:53:16 PM12/6/05
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Marcin 'Qrczak' Kowalczyk wrote:
> han...@schlund.de (Hannah Schroeter) writes:
>
>
>>I don't know why you necessarily need threads for doing I/O and
>>network bound work.
>>
>>I tend to do things like that in an event-driven fashion, even in
>>C++, where pthreads is just a few letters away.
>
>
> Multiplexing activity on several sockets (C: select / poll / epoll)
> is not provided by portable Common Lisp either.
>

So what? It isn't like they had to write a software and could not find
any Lisp that made it able to - they *did* write the software and it
obviously was working. So I fail to see any reason to blame the library
or Lisp implementation availability for the rewrite.

Peter

--
Ltk, the easy lisp gui http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/

Bill Atkins

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:01:25 PM12/6/05
to
Yes, PG has a very strong dislike of Common Lisp. For instance:

http://paulgraham.com/hundred.html
http://paulgraham.com/books.html
http://paulgraham.com/lisp.html

jayessay

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:17:39 PM12/6/05
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"Admin Snewton" <red...@gmail.com> writes:

> Yes, we could *afford* to buy a commercial Lisp, but we didn't want to.

Why not?

Bill Atkins

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:12:41 PM12/6/05
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I think you need a business model first.

Zing!

jayessay

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:25:54 PM12/6/05
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"Bill Atkins" <batk...@gmail.com> writes:

> Yes, PG has a very strong dislike of Common Lisp. For instance:

Never said that. Think "relatively speaking".

Tayssir John Gabbour

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:29:52 PM12/6/05
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nall...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/on-lisp.html
>
> here is a longer post describing why they switched

More discussion at Lemonodor, mentioned stability problems. After
pointing out that Edi Weitz is an "army-of-one producing good Lisp
libraries" (w00t!), one of the Reddit guys said the issues "weren't
particularily Lispy":

"The biggest trouble that plagued us was that we could never quite get
Lisp reddit stable enough to sleep at night. There were weird threading
issues that would bring the site to its knees a couple times a day and
required constant monitoring."

Tayssir

Sylvain

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Dec 6, 2005, 1:37:38 PM12/6/05
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M Jared Finder wrote:

> The lack of cross-platform threading and networking must be a huge pain
> when developing a web application.

why? the neat thing about a web application is precisely that you don't
have to care about portability since it runs on your server (your
choice of architecture/os/environment)...

when I read the initial article, I thought, well, they are becoming
successful, investors are bringing in the MBAs/suits, and lisp is not
really high on the list of things said suits read on the fancy glossy
magazines they peruse at their country clubs between two 'high level/big
picture' meetings...

--Sylvain

rsher...@gmail.com

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Dec 6, 2005, 2:06:41 PM12/6/05
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>Multiplexing activity on several sockets (C: select / poll / epoll)
>is not provided by portable Common Lisp either.

<snark>Right, but it's in ANSI Python, so they had to switch.</snark>

John Thingstad

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Dec 6, 2005, 2:25:59 PM12/6/05
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On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:25:37 +0100, M Jared Finder <ja...@hpalace.com>
wrote:

People write things like this in C++ which dosn't provide this in a
portable
way either.. If you choose to stick with a commercial vendor they provide
portable access to these facilleties.
Just like GCC is just only one C++ compiler ACL is just one implementation
of
CL.

Not sure what you mean by web applications either.
If you are writing a server side application it only needs to
run on that server. In the cases I have wittten web applications
I have used Java on the client side and Lisp on the server side.
They then communicate using XML-RPC (Thinking of extending to SOAP now
though)
AJAX makes even less requirements on the client side.
Only when writing client/server applications over a non-homogenous network
does this realy become a problem. These are rearly web app's though.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Stefan Scholl

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Dec 6, 2005, 3:08:33 PM12/6/05
to
By the way: What is Reddit? Can someone explain it in two sentences,
please?

ajones

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Dec 6, 2005, 4:24:26 PM12/6/05
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Stefan Scholl wrote:
> By the way: What is Reddit? Can someone explain it in two sentences,
> please?

I think I can do it in one. "Reddit is rating-driven group
bookmarking."

I have always failed to see where the business plan is here. They don't
appear have enough information about the people involved to do any kind
of directed advertising, and any kind of for pay additional service
seems like it will be ignored. They don't even have any kind of tagging
facility to implicitly create an advertising demographic.

I would guess they can try to learn something about what a person
likes/doesn't based on article ratings, but without knowing why an
article is rated the way it is this is also kind of pointless. I rate
down posts that have poor spelling, or lots of ads. Try figuring that
out to advertise to me, it has almost nothing to do with the content of
the site in question.

Unless they can figure out something better fast reddit is headed for
serious problems. Somehow I doubt "rewrite the site in python because I
am too lazy to run a virtual machine[1]" is the solution.

[1] Yes, I know there is more to it than just that. I mention it only
because it is a faster way of solving this issue than rewriting your
entire codebase.

Robert Uhl

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:15:35 PM12/6/05
to
Rainer Joswig <jos...@lisp.de> writes:
>
> But maybe with a rewrite the software gets useful. I haven't yet got
> an idea what that site could do for me. I'm no expert on this, but
> what would be the advantage over, say, http://del.icio.us/ ?

Actually, I've been playing around with it for a few days and it's done
a pretty decent job of pointing out some cool articles I'd not seen
before, hence my blog posts being rather more numerous than is the norm.

--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
It took people a long time to figure out which machine was doing it, and
even longer to figure out how. But for some reason it didn't take them
any time at all to figure that I'd done it. --Paul Tomblin

Robert Uhl

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:17:24 PM12/6/05
to
"John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:
>
> Not sure what you mean by web applications either. If you are writing
> a server side application it only needs to run on that server.

Well, as the guy pointed out he wanted to develop locally on his Mac and
deploy on their FreeBSD box. Dunno why they weren't using SBCL, but
possibly it lacked some feature they needed or thought they needed.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
--Aldous Huxley

Robert Uhl

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Dec 6, 2005, 11:20:52 PM12/6/05
to
"ajones" <ajo...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> I think I can do it in one. "Reddit is rating-driven group
> bookmarking."
>
> I have always failed to see where the business plan is here. They
> don't appear have enough information about the people involved to do
> any kind of directed advertising, and any kind of for pay additional
> service seems like it will be ignored. They don't even have any kind
> of tagging facility to implicitly create an advertising demographic.
>
> I would guess they can try to learn something about what a person
> likes/doesn't based on article ratings, but without knowing why an
> article is rated the way it is this is also kind of pointless. I rate
> down posts that have poor spelling, or lots of ads. Try figuring that
> out to advertise to me, it has almost nothing to do with the content
> of the site in question.

Netflix seems to do pretty well at recommending films based on
like/don't-like ratings. Granted, theirs aren't boolean, but that might
actually make the math simpler (not certain about that, since I don't
know much at all about that area). Perhaps they plan on serving up paid
links which one might like. This isn't actually a foolish idea--most of
us like finding out cool stuff we're interested in.

For example, if when I visited reddit.com they showed me a few links on
where to get a honest-to-goodness signet ring (not the dopey
engraved-flat-surfaces, but a real carved, mirror-image,
sealing-wax-impressing signet), I'd be a happy man. Google's turned up
a few, but there must be more out there.

Isn't it amazing how a large number of evil morons can give the appearance
of being a single evil genius? --Mel Rimmer

Christophe Rhodes

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Dec 7, 2005, 4:15:00 AM12/7/05
to
Robert Uhl <eadm...@NOSPAMgmail.com> writes:

> "John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by web applications either. If you are writing
>> a server side application it only needs to run on that server.
>
> Well, as the guy pointed out he wanted to develop locally on his Mac and
> deploy on their FreeBSD box. Dunno why they weren't using SBCL, but
> possibly it lacked some feature they needed or thought they needed.

If they were using TBNL, SBCL's lack of thread support on FreeBSD
would have been something of a showstopper. (Lack of thread support
on OS X, too, for that matter).

Christophe

John Thingstad

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Dec 7, 2005, 7:09:58 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:15:00 +0100, Christophe Rhodes <cs...@cam.ac.uk>
wrote:

Since both MAC-OS10 and freeBSD have a BSD kernel why not hack
SBCL to provide threading under freeBSD so that SBCL would support
TBNL on both platforms. This would be a great service to
the Lisp comunity AND solve the problem..

Christophe Rhodes

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Dec 7, 2005, 7:18:57 AM12/7/05
to
"John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:

> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:15:00 +0100, Christophe Rhodes <cs...@cam.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> If they were using TBNL, SBCL's lack of thread support on FreeBSD
>> would have been something of a showstopper. (Lack of thread support
>> on OS X, too, for that matter).
>

> Since both MAC-OS10 and freeBSD have a BSD kernel why not hack
> SBCL to provide threading under freeBSD so that SBCL would support
> TBNL on both platforms. This would be a great service to
> the Lisp comunity AND solve the problem..

Who, me? Because I have no need of threads on BSD or OS X, and I have
no commercial incentive to develop them either.

If you meant the developers of reddit instead, why on earth would they
do that? They rewrote their site in a language they knew, using a
framework written by one of their close acquaintances, so they now
have personal, close support on one of their core components. It took
them two weeks.

Would you like to estimate how long it would take you to implement
SBCL threads under OS X and FreeBSD? Supplementary question: estimate
how long it would take the two(?) developers of reddit.com to do it
instead (you might need error bars on this estimate). Using this
answer, consider just how insane the reddit developers would have had
to be to go down your suggested route.

Christophe

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Dec 7, 2005, 7:49:14 AM12/7/05
to
John Thingstad wrote:
> Since both MAC-OS10 and freeBSD have a BSD kernel why not hack
> SBCL to provide threading under freeBSD so that SBCL would support
> TBNL on both platforms. This would be a great service to
> the Lisp comunity AND solve the problem..

Basically SBCL should work with pthreads, and those are quite portable.

Maybe one or two months ago someone in here said that SBCL's threads
need some Linux-specific features (user-space mutexes?). But porting it
to BSD should also port it to Mac OS, true; their features are very similar.

--
Majority, n.: That quality that distinguishes a crime from a law.

Nikodemus Siivola

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Dec 7, 2005, 7:57:18 AM12/7/05
to
Nevermind the difference between Darwin and FreeBSD, you're right, it
would indeed be a great service.

If you're willing to pay for the work I suggest you send mail to
sbcl-devel (or individual developers) and ask for a quote. I'm
personally unavailable for such work till sometime in 2006 due to prior
commitments, but that's just me.

If you're not willing to pay for the work, then doing it yourself is a
strategy that will not only win you undying glory, but also be a deeply
educational experience taking --say-- 1-3 months of your time (assuming
fulltime work, basic SBCL-internals knowledge, a good understanding of
the operating system in question, and a good knowledge of Lisp, C and
assembler for the architecture you're targeting).

If you don't have the time or the chops, and aren't willing to pay for
the work...

Well, what is Usenet for? ;-)

Cheers,

-- Nikodemus Siivola

John Thingstad

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Dec 7, 2005, 11:47:28 AM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:18:57 +0100, Christophe Rhodes <cs...@cam.ac.uk>
wrote:

How about a matter of days.. It is just a matter of doing it!
I recognize that I don't have much clout in the Lisp community
but I will try to redeem that.
You would do that the way I would solve any problem by gathering
the best men around you and being the best man you can be.
Not by expecting a miracle approach from another source to do
work for you!

John Thingstad

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Dec 7, 2005, 11:55:01 AM12/7/05
to

If you are willing to come with any technical comments I am ready to
listen.
Personally I have never worked on a MAC or a free-BSD machine before.
I am however one of the early core programmers of Linux and I have
worked with windows and DOS just about as long as it has been around.
I find the implication that I should pay for free software in which
I get no benefit insulting! I would gladly (and have in the past)
contribute to a free software community.

Nikodemus Siivola

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Dec 7, 2005, 1:35:03 PM12/7/05
to
Sorry if I was not clear enough. There is nothing you or anyone else
"should" do, so no need to feel insulted.

I assumed that you _wanted_ to get SBCL threads ported to OS X and/or
FreeBSD, and suggested two _productive_ ways to go about realizing that
desire. The third option of hanging on the Usenet and waiting for stuff
to fall out of the woodwork is valid too -- just not terribly
effective.

Now it seems that you don't even want to have the threads ported -- or
that at least you would not get any "benefit" from it. That's fine too.

Cheers,

-- Nikodemus Siivola

PS. Given your assertion of "a matter days" to do the port (in reply to
Christophe) I would dearly love to see you do that.

Here's a vager: deliver to me the sources to SBCL with native threads
on FreeBSD (4) _or_ OS X (Panther) before the 7th of January 2006, and
I will pay you pay you 600EUR in return.

In case of dispute a knowledgeable third party can decide if the port
qualifies as functional (buglessness not required, passing the SBCL
regression suite required, usability for development of threaded
applications reuqired, workingness on other platforms required -- no
breaking threads on Linux, essential mergeworthiness to SBCL mainline
required).

If you feel tempted but require a bit more enticement or slightly more
time then perhaps we can negotiate something -- or perhaps others are
willing to chip in. If someone else then John feels tempted by this, by
all means have a go: in that case the bounty will go to the first
mergeworthy candidate to appear before the deadline (7th of January
2006).

If you need pen-and-paper confirmation about this promise, entering it
into a bounty-system, etc, just stipulate your conditions.

Since I don't follow comp.lang.lisp actively anymore any contacts about
this bounty are best sent directly to me: niko...@random-state.net.

Yours,

-- NS

William Bland

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Dec 7, 2005, 1:52:24 PM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:35:03 -0800, Nikodemus Siivola wrote:
>
> Here's a vager: deliver to me the sources to SBCL with native threads
> on FreeBSD (4) _or_ OS X (Panther) before the 7th of January 2006, and
> I will pay you pay you 600EUR in return.
>
[snip]

>
> If you feel tempted but require a bit more enticement or slightly more
> time then perhaps we can negotiate something -- or perhaps others are
> willing to chip in.

I'd be happy to chip-in. Let's say an additional US $300 from me if the
conditions given in Nikodemus's email are satisfied.

Hmm... perhaps, in addition to the CL-Janitors project being discussed in
another thread, we need a CL-Bounties project to keep track of work
that people are willing to pay for?

Cheers,
Bill.

John Thingstad

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Dec 7, 2005, 2:16:10 PM12/7/05
to
On

>
> If you are willing to come with any technical comments I am ready to
> listen.
> Personally I have never worked on a MAC or a free-BSD machine before.
> I am however one of the early core programmers of Linux and I have
> worked with windows and DOS just about as long as it has been around.
> I find the implication that I should pay for free software in which
> I get no benefit insulting! I would gladly (and have in the past)
> contribute to a free software community.
>

I'll stand by my original word..
And add, why not, 200$ to the originator of a SBCL version
on MAC-OS10 and freeBSD that supports threads.
Go for it! :)

Peter Seibel

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Dec 7, 2005, 2:36:31 PM12/7/05
to
William Bland <doctorb...@gmail.com> writes:

I'll be happy to keep track of that too though I declaim any legal
responsibility for resolving disputes over payment, etc. So I'll note
that we have 600EUR from Nikodemus + 300USD from William Bland for a
mergeworthy FreeBSD(4) or OS X (Panther) multithreaded version of SBCL
delivered to Nikodemus by 7 January 2006.

-Peter

P.S. I've got a baker's dozen of volunteers for the cl-janitors
project but only one suggestion for a way to put them to work. I've
begun making a mental list of ideas of my own which I'll try to
externalize in some form when I have a bit of free time but in the
meantime, if folks have ideas for small to medium size projects that
would make the Lisp world a better place, send 'em my way.

--
Peter Seibel * pe...@gigamonkeys.com
Gigamonkeys Consulting * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/
Practical Common Lisp * http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/

Peter Seibel

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Dec 7, 2005, 2:38:47 PM12/7/05
to
"John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:

> On
>>
>> If you are willing to come with any technical comments I am ready to
>> listen.
>> Personally I have never worked on a MAC or a free-BSD machine before.
>> I am however one of the early core programmers of Linux and I have
>> worked with windows and DOS just about as long as it has been around.
>> I find the implication that I should pay for free software in which
>> I get no benefit insulting! I would gladly (and have in the past)
>> contribute to a free software community.
>>
>
> I'll stand by my original word..
> And add, why not, 200$ to the originator of a SBCL version
> on MAC-OS10 and freeBSD that supports threads.
> Go for it! :)

So, Nikodemus's original bounty was for *either* OS X or FreeBSD. Do
you want to add your $200 pledge to that or do you want to add a $200
sweetener to someone who goes the extra mile and does both platforms?
Also, do you have the same deadline as Nikodemus (7 January 2006) or
is yours an open ended offer?

-Peter

John Thingstad

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Dec 7, 2005, 4:50:27 PM12/7/05
to
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:38:47 +0100, Peter Seibel <pe...@gigamonkeys.com>
wrote:

> "John Thingstad" <john.th...@chello.no> writes:
>
>> On
>>>
>>> If you are willing to come with any technical comments I am ready to
>>> listen.
>>> Personally I have never worked on a MAC or a free-BSD machine before.
>>> I am however one of the early core programmers of Linux and I have
>>> worked with windows and DOS just about as long as it has been around.
>>> I find the implication that I should pay for free software in which
>>> I get no benefit insulting! I would gladly (and have in the past)
>>> contribute to a free software community.
>>>
>>
>> I'll stand by my original word..
>> And add, why not, 200$ to the originator of a SBCL version
>> on MAC-OS10 and freeBSD that supports threads.
>> Go for it! :)
>
> So, Nikodemus's original bounty was for *either* OS X or FreeBSD. Do
> you want to add your $200 pledge to that or do you want to add a $200
> sweetener to someone who goes the extra mile and does both platforms?
> Also, do you have the same deadline as Nikodemus (7 January 2006) or
> is yours an open ended offer?
>
> -Peter
>

Since you ask! It holds to forever.
Will anyoune else add!
Deadilne.. dead :)

Never promice something you can't keep..

John

Christian Lynbech

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Dec 8, 2005, 3:06:57 AM12/8/05
to
But isn't UFFI a portable library? Implementing it in terms of that
would be a solution in portable LISP, even if it is not part of the
standard, right?


------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | christian #\@ defun #\. dk
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- pet...@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)


Kenny Tilton

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Dec 8, 2005, 3:26:14 AM12/8/05
to
Christian Lynbech wrote:
> But isn't UFFI a portable library? Implementing it in terms of that
> would be a solution in portable LISP, even if it is not part of the
> standard, right?

No, it covers some features of some Lisps, by feature-izing into
implementation FFIs (because there is no standard FFI). "some features"
because it is limited to only those features supported by all supported
implementations.

kt

John Thingstad

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Dec 8, 2005, 5:54:08 AM12/8/05
to
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:55:01 +0100, John Thingstad
<john.th...@chello.no> wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:57:18 +0100, Nikodemus Siivola
> <niko...@random-state.net> wrote:
>
>> Nevermind the difference between Darwin and FreeBSD, you're right, it
>> would indeed be a great service.
>>

:) Ok so I to will chip in.
If my company becomes succesfull another 400$ but two (2) years from
now!

Adam Connor

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Dec 8, 2005, 9:32:00 AM12/8/05
to
On 5 Dec 2005 06:06:38 -0800, "Ravi" <magic...@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://reddit.com/blog/2005/12/night-of-living-python.html

I thought Brian Mastenbrook's comments were interesting:
http://brian.mastenbrook.net/display/2

"So, for those who seek a lesson in all of this: there are plenty of
Common Lisps around which focus on performance. Which is the Common
Lisp for someone who is happy with the performance of Python, but
wants to use the same implementation, with the same features, on
several platforms, and also wants features like threads? I can't in
all honesty recommend CLISP, not least because there's no good way to
develop a web application inside SLIME (lacking serve-event and
threads, your web listener will block the REPL). CLISP also isn't
usable by a good number of people as an extension language, because
only programs distributed under GPL-compatible licenses can link to
it."
--
adamnospamaustin.rr.com
s/nospam/c\./

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 9:43:09 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:32:00 -0600, Adam Connor <u...@nospam.com> wrote:

> I thought Brian Mastenbrook's comments were interesting:
> http://brian.mastenbrook.net/display/2

Yeah. I think the most important point is that this thing is a
tempest in a teacup. They (Reddit) had very specific requirements and
they weren't willing to do anything about it (like buying a commercial
Lisp, buying a development machine which runs FreeBSD, running FreeBSD
inside an emulator, whatever) but they themselves admitted that the
problems they had weren't really Lisp-specific. Case closed... :)

Cheers,
Edi.

--

Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.

Real email: (replace (subseq "spam...@agharta.de" 5) "edi")

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Dec 8, 2005, 10:32:44 AM12/8/05
to
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:32:00 -0600, Adam Connor <u...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought Brian Mastenbrook's comments were interesting:
>> http://brian.mastenbrook.net/display/2
>
> Yeah. I think the most important point is that this thing is a
> tempest in a teacup. They (Reddit) had very specific requirements and
> they weren't willing to do anything about it (like buying a commercial
> Lisp, buying a development machine which runs FreeBSD, running FreeBSD
> inside an emulator, whatever) but they themselves admitted that the
> problems they had weren't really Lisp-specific. Case closed... :)

The problems weren't Lisp-specific in a business environment (where you
can simply buy a commercial Lisp), but for hobbyists these are real
problems (there being no free Lisp with those features). Of course in
theory a hobbyist has the time and knowledge to fix them...

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 10:36:59 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:32:44 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:

> The problems weren't Lisp-specific in a business environment (where
> you can simply buy a commercial Lisp), but for hobbyists these are
> real problems (there being no free Lisp with those features). Of
> course in theory a hobbyist has the time and knowledge to fix
> them...

As others have pointed out more than once dedicated hobbyists very
often invest large amounts of money for their hobby - think
photography, cars, musical instruments. Compare the price of a
LispWorks license to that of a Leica M plus lenses for instance.

Adam Connor

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Dec 8, 2005, 10:51:18 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:36:59 +0100, Edi Weitz <spam...@agharta.de>
wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:32:44 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:
>
>> The problems weren't Lisp-specific in a business environment (where
>> you can simply buy a commercial Lisp), but for hobbyists these are
>> real problems (there being no free Lisp with those features). Of
>> course in theory a hobbyist has the time and knowledge to fix
>> them...
>
>As others have pointed out more than once dedicated hobbyists very
>often invest large amounts of money for their hobby - think
>photography, cars, musical instruments. Compare the price of a
>LispWorks license to that of a Leica M plus lenses for instance.

Well, that's a huge barrier to entry. I think very, very few people
will invest that kind of money to test drive a scripting language.
Most of them will simply move on if the initial experience isn't good
(in whatever way), unless there is some external driver like jobs.
People put up with the Java mess because it has direct economic
benefits.

You say the problems weren't Lisp-specific because they could have
solved them and stayed in Lisp. I can point out workarounds to most of
Java's problems too, but it doesn't mean they aren't problems.
--
adamnospamaustin.rr.com
s/nospam/c\./

Pascal Costanza

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Dec 8, 2005, 10:58:27 AM12/8/05
to

You're switching contexts. Edi was talking about hobbyists. The company
that is being discussed switched to Python, not Java.


Pascal

--
My website: http://p-cos.net
Closer to MOP & ContextL:
http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:00:25 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:51:18 -0600, Adam Connor <u...@nospam.com> wrote:

> Well, that's a huge barrier to entry. I think very, very few people
> will invest that kind of money to test drive a scripting language.

Apart from the fact that CL isn't a scripting language you don't need
one penny to "test drive" it - the commercial vendors all have trial
editions available.

> You say the problems weren't Lisp-specific

No, they said that.

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:05:32 AM12/8/05
to
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:51:18 -0600, Adam Connor <u...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, that's a huge barrier to entry. I think very, very few people
>> will invest that kind of money to test drive a scripting language.
>
> Apart from the fact that CL isn't a scripting language you don't need
> one penny to "test drive" it - the commercial vendors all have trial
> editions available.

Sure, but the competition (Python, Ruby) is also quite good, and it's
free. Hobbyists CAN try Allegro etc. for free, but they'd rather invest
their learning time into something that they could use for free to build
either something for home, or even a commercial product. It's just part
of human nature, that free is much better than if you'll have to - later
in time - pay a couple 100 bucks.

>> You say the problems weren't Lisp-specific
>
> No, they said that.

Maybe they're not really Lisp problems, but (for whatever reason) they
ARE perceived problems. We can debate if users' perception is wrong,
but that doesn't change the image that Lisp has, out there.

Pascal Costanza

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:13:07 AM12/8/05
to
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Edi Weitz wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:51:18 -0600, Adam Connor <u...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, that's a huge barrier to entry. I think very, very few people
>>> will invest that kind of money to test drive a scripting language.
>>
>> Apart from the fact that CL isn't a scripting language you don't need
>> one penny to "test drive" it - the commercial vendors all have trial
>> editions available.
>
> Sure, but the competition (Python, Ruby) is also quite good, and it's
> free. Hobbyists CAN try Allegro etc. for free, but they'd rather invest
> their learning time into something that they could use for free to build
> either something for home, or even a commercial product. It's just part
> of human nature, that free is much better than if you'll have to - later
> in time - pay a couple 100 bucks.

For hobbyists, Allegro Common Lisp is completely free.

>>> You say the problems weren't Lisp-specific
>>
>> No, they said that.
>
> Maybe they're not really Lisp problems, but (for whatever reason) they
> ARE perceived problems. We can debate if users' perception is wrong,
> but that doesn't change the image that Lisp has, out there.

We can't do anything about wrong perceptions other than try to correct
them. You will definitely not achieve anything by perpetuating wrong
perceptions.

Creighton Hogg

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:02:19 AM12/8/05
to

I don't think he was really switching contexts. I think it
was just the point that providing a work around for
inconveniences doesn't make them not inconvenient.

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:22:10 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:13:07 +0100, Pascal Costanza <p...@p-cos.net> wrote:

> You will definitely not achieve anything by perpetuating wrong
> perceptions.

But if you're not doing anything productive that's the only fun on
Usenet... :)

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:22:44 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:02:19 -0600, Creighton Hogg <wch...@lotus.hep.wisc.edu> wrote:

> I think it was just the point that providing a work around for
> inconveniences doesn't make them not inconvenient.

What was the inconvenience and what was the workaround?

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:48:11 AM12/8/05
to
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> For hobbyists, Allegro Common Lisp is completely free.

That isn't what I meant. Sure, it's free for hobby stuff, but still
there's always the thought that should you ever use it commercially, you
first have to earn the price of Allegro.

You can't just open a commercial web-site and earn maybe €10 in
advertising a month, because that won't be enough.

Now I'm sure you guys have yet another solution for that (and so I am
wrong again), but that doesn't change the perception of people out
there. Yes, I know, neither does talking here. Back to more important
stuff.

Adam Connor

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Dec 8, 2005, 11:53:39 AM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:58:27 +0100, Pascal Costanza <p...@p-cos.net>
wrote:

>You're switching contexts. Edi was talking about hobbyists. The company
>that is being discussed switched to Python, not Java.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply they switched to Java. I used Java as an
example because I know that community fairly well.

--
adamnospamaustin.rr.com
s/nospam/c\./

Adam Connor

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:03:05 PM12/8/05
to
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:48:11 +0100, Ulrich Hobelmann
<u.hob...@web.de> wrote:

>Pascal Costanza wrote:
>> For hobbyists, Allegro Common Lisp is completely free.
>
>That isn't what I meant. Sure, it's free for hobby stuff, but still
>there's always the thought that should you ever use it commercially, you
>first have to earn the price of Allegro.
>
>You can't just open a commercial web-site and earn maybe €10 in
>advertising a month, because that won't be enough.
>
>Now I'm sure you guys have yet another solution for that (and so I am
>wrong again), but that doesn't change the perception of people out
>there. Yes, I know, neither does talking here. Back to more important
>stuff.

What it comes down to is that many folks are looking for free (as in
beer, at least) solutions. It might be that once they are sufficiently
invested they would consider commercial alternatives, but it's hard to
get them to even look at a commercial alternative to start out. We can
argue about whether they are being wise or not, I guess, but since
many competing languages are free (both as beer and as speech), it's
hard to make headway by saying "well, you could try this high quality
commercial altenative".

If I want to try Allegro Common Lisp for a small project at a
commercial enterprise, it isn't free. I'm going to go out on a limb
and guess that in most shops, it's easier to try something that's free
(provided the license terms aren't too harsh).

That said, you are probably right that I am overreacting. Lisp's
biggest difficulty in becoming popular is that it doesn't have a
killer app to drag it along, in the way that Netscape helped do for
Java at the start, or Unix did for C, etc.
--
adamnospamaustin.rr.com
s/nospam/c\./

Pascal Costanza

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:03:46 PM12/8/05
to
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>
>> For hobbyists, Allegro Common Lisp is completely free.
>
> That isn't what I meant. Sure, it's free for hobby stuff, but still
> there's always the thought that should you ever use it commercially, you
> first have to earn the price of Allegro.
>
> You can't just open a commercial web-site and earn maybe €10 in
> advertising a month, because that won't be enough.

I don't consider a website that earns 10 Euros per month a commercial
enterprise. What you need is a business plan, and in a business plan you
can also include costs for the infrastructure.

Arthur Lemmens

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:16:52 PM12/8/05
to
Edi Weitz wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:13:07 +0100, Pascal Costanza <p...@p-cos.net> wrote:
>
>> You will definitely not achieve anything by perpetuating wrong
>> perceptions.
>
> But if you're not doing anything productive that's the only fun on
> Usenet... :)

Hey, at least it's on topic. So we're making progress...

bradb

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:17:16 PM12/8/05
to
Would I be wrong to say that the last few posts boil down to
"They had some problems, but nothing that can't be solved by changing
to a commercial distribution?"

So if that is correct, it implies that there are no commercial strength
free Lisps? Why not? Most other languages have commercial strength
free implementations, for many languages the free version is more or
less the defacto standard.

Or am I way off base?

Thanks
Brad

Arthur Lemmens

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:20:06 PM12/8/05
to
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:

> Back to more important stuff.

Yeah, like politics...

Edi Weitz

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Dec 8, 2005, 12:39:25 PM12/8/05