UnCommon Web intro video

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Marco Baringer

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Jul 27, 2005, 10:12:44 AM7/27/05
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hi,

I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
world" application with uncommon web (see
http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
it's like to develop applications with ucw:

http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent

http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov

(51MB; quicktime encoded mpeg-4 file)

enjoy.
--
-Marco
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget the perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.
-Leonard Cohen

Stefan Scholl

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Jul 27, 2005, 1:26:20 PM7/27/05
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On 2005-07-27 16:12:44, Marco Baringer wrote:
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent

> enjoy.

Yes, I enjoyed it. Very good introduction!

William Bland

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Jul 27, 2005, 1:37:21 PM7/27/05
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:12:44 +0200, Marco Baringer wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web

Excellent! I am very much enjoying the recent bunch of Lisp videos that
are cropping up - I'm learning a lot about how other people use Lisp this
way. Keep 'em coming!

Best wishes,
Bill.

Emre Sevinc

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Jul 27, 2005, 2:15:49 PM7/27/05
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"Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> writes:

> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web (see
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
> it's like to develop applications with ucw:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov
>
> (51MB; quicktime encoded mpeg-4 file)
>
> enjoy.


Baffled. Shocked. Surprised. Had fun.

It was music to my ears ;-)

Anybody who programmed in classic MS ASP 3.0
and/or PHP for the last 6 or so years (and having some minor
Lisp experience) will truly appreciate your use
of UCW (no need to have any UCW experience beforehand,
I'm live evidence).

Very good and clear video, very understandable and plain
English with very good voice synchronization.

Not only you made an excellent intoductory tutorial
for UCW but also, as a byproduct, you show how
to use Emacs and SLIME effectively.

This video is a great candidate for the next TV show
of mine (in which I and my friends try to mention
Lisp and play Lisp videos, commenting on them).

--
Emre Sevinc

eMBA Software Developer Actively engaged in:
http:www.bilgi.edu.tr http://ileriseviye.org
http://www.bilgi.edu.tr http://fazlamesai.net
Cognitive Science Student http://cazci.com
http://www.cogsci.boun.edu.tr

Paolo Amoroso

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Jul 27, 2005, 3:19:32 PM7/27/05
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Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:

> This video is a great candidate for the next TV show
> of mine (in which I and my friends try to mention
> Lisp and play Lisp videos, commenting on them).

What about a Grahammy award?


Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools:
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface

Kenny Tilton

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Jul 27, 2005, 3:24:25 PM7/27/05
to

Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
>
>
>>This video is a great candidate for the next TV show
>>of mine (in which I and my friends try to mention
>>Lisp and play Lisp videos, commenting on them).
>
>
> What about a Grahammy award?

For appaulling humor?

--
Kenny

Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film

"I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state
I finally won out over it."
Elwood P. Dowd, "Harvey", 1950

Emre Sevinc

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Jul 27, 2005, 4:08:54 PM7/27/05
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Kenny Tilton <kti...@nyc.rr.com> writes:

> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>> Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
>>
>>>This video is a great candidate for the next TV show
>>>of mine (in which I and my friends try to mention
>>>Lisp and play Lisp videos, commenting on them).
>> What about a Grahammy award?
>
> For appaulling humor?

LoL (as a double entendre)

Matthias Buelow

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Jul 27, 2005, 5:46:07 PM7/27/05
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Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> wrote:

>Not only you made an excellent intoductory tutorial
>for UCW but also, as a byproduct, you show how
>to use Emacs and SLIME effectively.

One question popped to my mind, though.. Maybe I missed it but he
apparently hasn't typed a password to connect SLIME to the running
UCW. Is it using pre-stored certificates, or how does it otherwise
authenticate the connection (I assume it's going over SSL, at least
when connecting to a remote machine?)

mkb.

Emre Sevinc

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Jul 27, 2005, 5:55:17 PM7/27/05
to
"Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> writes:

> hi,
>
> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web (see
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
> it's like to develop applications with ucw:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov
>
> (51MB; quicktime encoded mpeg-4 file)

Is it a divine coincidence that majority of Lisp-coding-on-the-run
video captures come from Lispers using Apple? ;-)

I didn't see such videos coming from Lispers
using GNU/Linux (including me) (except
a Flash encoded video capture created by BM).

"There are patterns in nature." (PI the movie)

GP lisper

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Jul 27, 2005, 9:12:04 PM7/27/05
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:55:17 +0300, <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> wrote:
>
> Is it a divine coincidence that majority of Lisp-coding-on-the-run
> video captures come from Lispers using Apple? ;-)

Only if the 'divine' controls the appropriate tools.

However, despite the free software shortcomings of the more popular
platforms, I think it's a natural tendancy for mac-users to be
attracted to flashing-lights and bells; much like the midway at a
carnival.

--
[ingvar] Modelling forest damage by storms with regular expressions is...
a curious idea.
[Xach] before: ||| after: //_
[Xach] seems easy enough to me

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Jul 28, 2005, 3:49:29 AM7/28/05
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GP lisper wrote:
> However, despite the free software shortcomings of the more popular
> platforms, I think it's a natural tendancy for mac-users to be
> attracted to flashing-lights and bells; much like the midway at a
> carnival.

I would say, the contrary. It's more about functionality. If I
wanted flashing lights I'd be using nicy-bubbly-colory XP. The
Mac interface/GUI is about the cleanest I've seen for what it does
(except for really terse Unix window managers). Multimedia
facilities are just more in the direction of functionality.
Because it all works, Mac users don't have objections to videos ;)

--
XML is a prime example of retarded innovation.
-- Erik Meijer and Peter Drayton, Microsoft Corporation

Edi Weitz

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Jul 28, 2005, 4:32:31 AM7/28/05
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On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:29 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:

> I would say, the contrary. It's more about functionality. If I
> wanted flashing lights I'd be using nicy-bubbly-colory XP.

On Windows XP you can get back the pretty unobtrusive "Classic"
(i.e. more or less Win2k) look with one mouse click. This is usually
the first thing I do on a new machine. I wish that would be possible
for OS X as well. (No, I don't mean the superficial changes you get
if you use the "Graphite" look or whatever it's called.)

> The Mac interface/GUI is about the cleanest I've seen for what it
> does (except for really terse Unix window managers).

I completely disagree. I think the Mac OS 9 GUI was /very/ nice
w.r.t. being clear, clean and aesthetically pleasing. IMHO the OS X
GUI is mostly about eye candy and it uses way too much screen real
estate as well.

Cheers,
Edi.

--

Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.

Real email: (replace (subseq "spam...@agharta.de" 5) "edi")

Emre Sevinc

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Jul 28, 2005, 5:37:24 AM7/28/05
to
Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:

> "Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> writes:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
>> world" application with uncommon web (see
>> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
>> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
>> it's like to develop applications with ucw:
>>
>> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent
>>
>> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov
>>
>> (51MB; quicktime encoded mpeg-4 file)
>
> Is it a divine coincidence that majority of Lisp-coding-on-the-run
> video captures come from Lispers using Apple? ;-)
>
> I didn't see such videos coming from Lispers
> using GNU/Linux (including me) (except
> a Flash encoded video capture created by BM).

Divine forces heard my complaint!

http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/slime.html

Looks like it used a similar techniqe as in

http://fazlamesai.net/multimedia/cl.html starring in the article:

http://fazlamesai.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2580

Ulrich Hobelmann

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Jul 28, 2005, 5:49:51 AM7/28/05
to
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:29 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:
>
>> I would say, the contrary. It's more about functionality. If I
>> wanted flashing lights I'd be using nicy-bubbly-colory XP.
>
> On Windows XP you can get back the pretty unobtrusive "Classic"
> (i.e. more or less Win2k) look with one mouse click. This is usually
> the first thing I do on a new machine. I wish that would be possible
> for OS X as well. (No, I don't mean the superficial changes you get
> if you use the "Graphite" look or whatever it's called.)

While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s ;)

The Mac GUI, be it with colorful buttons or grey ones, is clean,
with little border around the windows, wasting little screen
estate, no toolbars (you can turn them off), overall *very*
lightweight. Gnome on X11 started to also allow you to turn off
toolbars; maybe sometime I'll try it out again.

>> The Mac interface/GUI is about the cleanest I've seen for what it
>> does (except for really terse Unix window managers).
>
> I completely disagree. I think the Mac OS 9 GUI was /very/ nice
> w.r.t. being clear, clean and aesthetically pleasing. IMHO the OS X
> GUI is mostly about eye candy and it uses way too much screen real
> estate as well.

OS9 looks good on all pictures I've seen. OS X has the dock which
wastes screen, but you can shrink it or turn it off. Overall I
don't see how it would waste more screen space than XP, KDE,
Gnome, XFCE, WindowMaker ...

Bulent Murtezaoglu

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Jul 28, 2005, 5:51:45 AM7/28/05
to
>>>>> "ES" == Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
[...]

>> I didn't see such videos coming from Lispers using GNU/Linux
>> (including me) (except a Flash encoded video capture created by
>> BM).

ES> Divine forces heard my complaint!

ES> http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/slime.html

ES> Looks like it used a similar techniqe as in [...] [my crap BM]

Exactly the same technique, he's using his own software and I has using
his.

cheers,

BM

Edi Weitz

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Jul 28, 2005, 5:59:46 AM7/28/05
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:49:51 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:

> While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s
> ;)

Tastes can differ, obviously. I don't think that something is bad
just because it looks (or is) old.

Edi Weitz

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Jul 28, 2005, 6:35:58 AM7/28/05
to
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:12:44 +0200, "Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> wrote:

> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web

Nice video, thanks.

However, I tried to download and install UCW in order to play with it
a bit and I didn't get very far. After installing the dependencies
like arnesi and yaclml from the "latest" links as found on CLiki UCW
complains that it wants arnesi 1.4.1 while the "latest" version is
1.4.0. Is there a way to get at 1.4.1 without installing yet another
version control system?

(It was probably an error to follow the directions on the UCW page and
install it from the darcs repo instead of getting the "latest" tarball
here as well. I'll try that now but I thought you should know
anyway.)

Thanks,

carlitos

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:25:04 AM7/28/05
to
Edi Weitz wrote:
> (It was probably an error to follow the directions on the UCW page and
> install it from the darcs repo instead of getting the "latest" tarball
> here as well. I'll try that now but I thought you should know
> anyway.)

You can get arnesi and yaclml using darcs as well:
http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/arnesi/
http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/yaclml/

Marco Baringer

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:32:19 AM7/28/05
to
Edi Weitz <spam...@agharta.de> writes:

> However, I tried to download and install UCW in order to play with it
> a bit and I didn't get very far. After installing the dependencies
> like arnesi and yaclml from the "latest" links as found on CLiki UCW
> complains that it wants arnesi 1.4.1 while the "latest" version is
> 1.4.0. Is there a way to get at 1.4.1 without installing yet another
> version control system?

i just reactivated the snapshot cronjob which creates daily snapshots
of the 'current' ucw, arnesi and yaclml (it's something of a bitch to
get the right versions of all three unless you're using darcs):

ftp://ftp.common-lisp.net/pub/project/ucw/snapshots/ucw-LATEST.tar.bz2

hth.

Edi Weitz

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:53:35 AM7/28/05
to
On 28 Jul 2005 04:25:04 -0700, "carlitos" <Carlos...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

Ah, thanks. I grabbed those and now it works. I was confused by some
download page which told me to use TLA.

Cheers,

Edi Weitz

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:54:13 AM7/28/05
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:32:19 +0200, "Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> wrote:

> i just reactivated the snapshot cronjob which creates daily
> snapshots of the 'current' ucw, arnesi and yaclml (it's something of
> a bitch to get the right versions of all three unless you're using
> darcs):
>
> ftp://ftp.common-lisp.net/pub/project/ucw/snapshots/ucw-LATEST.tar.bz2

Thanks. See my other posting about TLA vs. darcs. I'm now playing
with UCW.

Cheers,

Marco Baringer

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:57:23 AM7/28/05
to
Edi Weitz <spam...@agharta.de> writes:

> On 28 Jul 2005 04:25:04 -0700, "carlitos" <Carlos...@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> You can get arnesi and yaclml using darcs as well:
>> http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/arnesi/
>> http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/yaclml/
>
> Ah, thanks. I grabbed those and now it works. I was confused by some
> download page which told me to use TLA.

my bad. i switched over to darcs a while ago and never updated the
pages, should be better now.

happy hacking.

Emre Sevinc

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:11:07 PM7/28/05
to
"Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> writes:

> hi,
>
> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web (see
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
> it's like to develop applications with ucw:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov
>

I've just downloaded your new video slime.mov from

http://common-lisp.net/~mbaringer/slime.torrent

and it is great too. Long, detailed, touching many aspects
of Emacs.

Thanks for another high quality video, I do appreciate it.

(I feel like I'm getting addicted to these videos,
you gotta feed me with new videos every week to keep
me away from a video-addiction crisis ;-)

Marco Baringer

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:41:01 PM7/28/05
to
Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:

> I've just downloaded your new video slime.mov from
>
> http://common-lisp.net/~mbaringer/slime.torrent

for future reference, the torrent has been copied to (and will remain)
here:

http://common-lisp.net/movies/slime.torrent
(55min; 149mb; quicktime encoded mpeg-4)

and there's a copy of the .mov here: (but _please_ use the torrent if
you can)

http://common-lisp.net/movies/slime.mov

a description of the movie is available in this email:

http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2005-July/003795.html

(nb: the movie has been moved since i posted that email)

Marco Baringer

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Jul 28, 2005, 7:44:32 PM7/28/05
to
"Marco Baringer" <m...@bese.it> writes:

> hi,
>
> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web (see
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
> it's like to develop applications with ucw:
>
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.torrent

moved to: http://common-lisp.net/movies/hello-world.torrent

> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/docs/hello-world.mov

moved to: http://common-lisp.net/movies/hello-world.mov

drkm

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Jul 28, 2005, 9:24:30 PM7/28/05
to
Marco Baringer writes:

> for future reference, the torrent has been copied to (and will remain)
> here:

> http://common-lisp.net/movies/slime.torrent
> (55min; 149mb; quicktime encoded mpeg-4)

Unfortunatly, it's not referenced at the index page at
<URL:http://common-lisp.net/movies/>.

Thanks,

--drkm

Morten Alver

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Jul 29, 2005, 5:18:58 AM7/29/05
to
Marco Baringer wrote:
> I've created a short (20min) movie showing how to develop a "hello
> world" application with uncommon web (see
> http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw for details). This movie is for
> anyone who is curious about how it works and wants a taste of what
> it's like to develop applications with ucw:

Very nice introduction, and UCW looks like a very useful library!

I wanted to try this out for myself, but as a Lisp newbie the usual
thing happened: I download the library, a number of dependencies, and
try to install it, or load it, or run it. Error messages I can't
comprehend pop up at every attempt, and after cursing and hammering my
keyboard for a while I decide that this is far above me.

I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
UCW. :)


--
Morten

Paolo Amoroso

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Jul 29, 2005, 5:25:15 AM7/29/05
to
Emre Sevinc <em...@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:

> (I feel like I'm getting addicted to these videos,

Just wait for the ring tones.

Peter Scott

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Jul 29, 2005, 10:39:08 AM7/29/05
to
Morten Alver wrote:
> I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
> step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
> UCW. :)

A lot of people would be happy if such a thing existed. What Lisp
implementation are you using? I've had good luck on SBCL, Marco uses
OpenMCL, and I don't know how it works on other Lisps.

Anyway, let me add my voice to the chorus: nice video! I already know
the wonders of UCW (I've used it for a project at work), but this
really inspired me to learn the joy of SLIME---I had been using ILISP
for a long time.

-Peter

Zachery Bir

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Jul 29, 2005, 11:12:44 AM7/29/05
to

I'm nearly there with my setup, and would gladly provide some tutorial
in this direction just as soon as I can get my setup (Mac OS X 10.4.2,
OpenMCL 0.14.3, Slime 1.2.1 (from CVS), UCW 0.3.9, and the rest of the
dependencies installed via asdf-install) to the point where it actually
serves the hello world app Marco demonstrates in his movie. Heck, I
could even record it :^)

Zac

Morten Alver

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Jul 29, 2005, 8:20:37 PM7/29/05
to
Peter Scott wrote:

> Morten Alver wrote:
>> I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
>> step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
>> UCW. :)
>
> A lot of people would be happy if such a thing existed. What Lisp
> implementation are you using? I've had good luck on SBCL, Marco uses
> OpenMCL, and I don't know how it works on other Lisps.

Hi,

I've made some progress since my last post (I've learned some things
today :), but I'm not quite there. I'm using a Debian Linux system with
CMUCL. I have Apache 1.3.33 and mod_lisp installed, and I can run the
(start-apache-listener) function from an example file "modlisp-cmucl.lisp"
which I downloaded from somewhere. At that point I can connect with a web
browser and see the message that confirms that things are working. (Should
I do this before starting the UCW server?)

I think I've managed to load all the needed libraries. I've edited the
"start.lisp" file in the "bin" directory so the line
"(use-mod-lisp-backend)" is uncommented. When trying to start the server
(loading "start.lisp" from SLIME), I get this error:

"
Error in function CREATE-INET-LISTENER:
Error binding socket to port 4005: Address already in use
[Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]

Restarts:
0: [CONTINUE] Return NIL form load of
"/home/alver/lisp/ucw/bin/start.lisp".
1: [ABORT] Abort handling SLIME request.
2: [ABORT] Return to Top-Level.

Backtrace:
0: (CREATE-INET-LISTENER 4005 :STREAM :HOST 16777343 ...)
"

Earlier the message gave the port number 3001 instead of 4005, but I can't
reproduce that at the moment.

I suppose there is some simple reason this happens, but I can't see it...


--
Morten

Morten Alver

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Jul 29, 2005, 8:30:31 PM7/29/05
to
Zachery Bir wrote:

>> I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
>> step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
>> UCW. :)
>
> I'm nearly there with my setup, and would gladly provide some tutorial
> in this direction just as soon as I can get my setup (Mac OS X 10.4.2,
> OpenMCL 0.14.3, Slime 1.2.1 (from CVS), UCW 0.3.9, and the rest of the
> dependencies installed via asdf-install) to the point where it actually
> serves the hello world app Marco demonstrates in his movie. Heck, I
> could even record it :^)
>
> Zac

Hi,

I think a tutorial would be useful; I've been trying to get further, with
some success (se my reply to Peter Scott), but I haven't got it quite
working yet.


--
Morten

GP lisper

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Jul 28, 2005, 5:47:12 PM7/28/05
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:49:51 +0200, <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:
> Edi Weitz wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:49:29 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:
>>
>>> I would say, the contrary. It's more about functionality. If I
>>> wanted flashing lights I'd be using nicy-bubbly-colory XP.
>>
>> On Windows XP you can get back the pretty unobtrusive "Classic"
>> (i.e. more or less Win2k) look with one mouse click. This is usually

Wow, I do that so quick, I have forgotten what a standard XP looks like.

>> the first thing I do on a new machine. I wish that would be possible
>> for OS X as well. (No, I don't mean the superficial changes you get
>> if you use the "Graphite" look or whatever it's called.)
>
> While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s ;)

Sounds like a mac. I notice how the recent mac release has been
discussed, how good it looks, how pretty the fonts are, etc. Not once
have I seen a comment about speed, disk usage, network usage, etc.

> The Mac GUI, be it with colorful buttons or grey ones, is clean,
> with little border around the windows, wasting little screen
> estate, no toolbars (you can turn them off), overall *very*
> lightweight. Gnome on X11 started to also allow you to turn off
> toolbars; maybe sometime I'll try it out again.

Look at fvwm2, setup in the fashion of the original. I easily beat
the Grey macs of yesterday. And fvwm remains a very fast virtual
windows manager. Toolbars are very slow compared to a click anywhere
menu.

Ulrich Hobelmann

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 4:29:31 AM7/30/05
to
GP lisper wrote:
>> While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s ;)
>
> Sounds like a mac. I notice how the recent mac release has been
> discussed, how good it looks, how pretty the fonts are, etc. Not once
> have I seen a comment about speed, disk usage, network usage, etc.

Well, I've never seen an OS 9 Mac in action, but from looks it
looks infinities better than the Win2000 look, IMHO. And I don't
want to talk about the feel ;)
(although XP isn't too bad anymore for "feel", except for the
subfunctional window manager)

Mac OS X is slow and takes some disk space, sure, but who cares?
At least the reaction speed is predictable. Overall the system
keeps out of the way.

>> The Mac GUI, be it with colorful buttons or grey ones, is clean,
>> with little border around the windows, wasting little screen
>> estate, no toolbars (you can turn them off), overall *very*
>> lightweight. Gnome on X11 started to also allow you to turn off
>> toolbars; maybe sometime I'll try it out again.
>
> Look at fvwm2, setup in the fashion of the original. I easily beat
> the Grey macs of yesterday. And fvwm remains a very fast virtual
> windows manager. Toolbars are very slow compared to a click anywhere
> menu.

Yes, I kindof liked fvwm1, though IMHO 2 looks somewhat ugly and
is too complex for my taste. And menus and all that and
focus-follows-mouse are why I overall prefer X11 over a Mac, but
well, at least everything works. I just spend a whole day looking
for a decent PC that would be silent, run Linux 100% (no driver
trouble...). In the end I found a well-priced mac mini on ebay to
replace my iBook... At least it's Unix.

Morten Alver

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 9:23:31 AM7/30/05
to
GP lisper wrote:

>>> the first thing I do on a new machine. I wish that would be possible
>>> for OS X as well. (No, I don't mean the superficial changes you get
>>> if you use the "Graphite" look or whatever it's called.)
>>
>> While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s ;)
>
> Sounds like a mac. I notice how the recent mac release has been
> discussed, how good it looks, how pretty the fonts are, etc. Not once
> have I seen a comment about speed, disk usage, network usage, etc.

I present to you the review of OSX 10.4 from Ars Technica:

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars

It's 21 pages, and covers *a lot* of other things than fonts and look. It's
a pretty good read, compared to most of what passes for "reviews" on the
net.


--
Morten

Randall Randall

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 10:46:39 AM7/30/05
to
GP lisper wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:49:51 +0200, <u.hob...@web.de> wrote:
>>While there is classic, it looks like ugly gray from the early '90s ;)
>
>
> Sounds like a mac. I notice how the recent mac release has been
> discussed, how good it looks, how pretty the fonts are, etc. Not once
> have I seen a comment about speed, disk usage, network usage, etc.

Well, those things have all been "good enough" for
several years now, so we Mac owners only notice when
there's some further improvement. :)

I used a Mac at work about the time I was putting
Win95 on my home machine, and it was horribly slow.
However, I've been using my 1Ghz PowerBook since I
bought it in 2003, and while I'm looking forward to
an upgrade soon, it's not irritatingly slow.


--
Randall Randall <ran...@randallsquared.com>

Hartmann Schaffer

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 7:17:40 PM7/30/05
to
Randall Randall wrote:
> ...

> I used a Mac at work about the time I was putting
> Win95 on my home machine, and it was horribly slow.

iirc, at that time apple had just switched to the powerpc, but most of
the software that came with it was compiled for the 68000, so had to run
on an emulator

> ...

hs

Peter Scott

unread,
Jul 30, 2005, 8:46:47 PM7/30/05
to
Have you tried using UCW's built-in httpd backend? It's not recommended
for production use, but it's simpler and might give some insight to
your problem.

Try tracing CREATE-INET-LISTENER to see if it's being called twice. If
it is, it shouldn't be.

-Peter

Morten Alver

unread,
Jul 31, 2005, 2:34:13 PM7/31/05
to
Peter Scott wrote:

> Have you tried using UCW's built-in httpd backend? It's not recommended
> for production use, but it's simpler and might give some insight to
> your problem.

Wow, the example page worked once I switched to the httpd backend! Thanks
for your suggestion! I wonder, should I use the same address
(http://127.0.0.1:8080/ucw/examples/index.ucw) when using Apache+mod_lisp,
or it this only valid for the built-in backend? If not, maybe it did work,
and I was actually trying to start it a second time when receiving the
error message.

Now, on to trying the hello-world application...

--
Morten

Peter Scott

unread,
Jul 31, 2005, 9:39:36 PM7/31/05
to
Apache usually binds on port 80. When it's using mod_lisp, it opens up
a connection to a port (usually 3000 with UCW, IIRC) on which Lisp is
listening. UCW's httpd backend listens on an arbitrary port (in your
case, 8080), which changes the address.

I hope that clarified things rather than making them hazier. Anyway,
have fun with UCW.

-Peter

Morten Alver

unread,
Aug 2, 2005, 4:07:16 AM8/2/05
to

I think I understand. Thanks again!


Morten

GP lisper

unread,
Aug 2, 2005, 8:04:18 PM8/2/05
to
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 00:20:37 +0000, <morte...@none.no> wrote:
>
> I've made some progress since my last post (I've learned some things
> today :), but I'm not quite there. I'm using a Debian Linux system with
> CMUCL. I have Apache 1.3.33 and mod_lisp installed, and I can run the
> (start-apache-listener) function from an example file "modlisp-cmucl.lisp"
> which I downloaded from somewhere. At that point I can connect with a web
> browser and see the message that confirms that things are working. (Should
> I do this before starting the UCW server?)

Ah, if the "things are working" is just the standard new apache
webpage, you don't know that mod_lisp is working. Use "netstat".

>
> I think I've managed to load all the needed libraries. I've edited the
> "start.lisp" file in the "bin" directory so the line
> "(use-mod-lisp-backend)" is uncommented. When trying to start the server
> (loading "start.lisp" from SLIME), I get this error:

....

> Earlier the message gave the port number 3001 instead of 4005, but I can't
> reproduce that at the moment.
>
> I suppose there is some simple reason this happens, but I can't see it...

Yes, the ucw code is inconsistent. In the setup for apache.conf, the
port is listed as 3001, but the mod_lisp portion of start.lisp looks
at 3000.

I don't see how the ucw website claims that it works with cmucl, when
the mailing list archive shows unresolved problems with cmucl....

Nice to have a video tho.

Morten Alver

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 9:27:28 AM8/3/05
to
GP lisper wrote:
>>I've made some progress since my last post (I've learned some things
>>today :), but I'm not quite there. I'm using a Debian Linux system with
>>CMUCL. I have Apache 1.3.33 and mod_lisp installed, and I can run the
>>(start-apache-listener) function from an example file "modlisp-cmucl.lisp"
>>which I downloaded from somewhere. At that point I can connect with a web
>>browser and see the message that confirms that things are working. (Should
>>I do this before starting the UCW server?)
>
>
> Ah, if the "things are working" is just the standard new apache
> webpage, you don't know that mod_lisp is working. Use "netstat".

It definitely isn't the standard Apache page. I connect to
"http://hostname/lisp" (where "lisp" is the designated something from
httpd.conf). It mentions mod_lisp, though I can't repeat the exact
message at the moment (me here, computer there, turned off). Also, it
works only after calling (start-apache-listener), otherwise I get
"Internal Server Error".

Thanks for the tip - I didn't know about netstat.

--
Morten

Marco Baringer

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 11:55:59 AM8/3/05
to
Morten Alver <morte...@none.no> writes:

> Earlier the message gave the port number 3001 instead of 4005, but I can't
> reproduce that at the moment.

3001 is the port the apache side of mod_lisp listens on (and the port
ucw's mod_lisp backend connects to). 4005 is the port the swank
server (the lisp side of slime) listens on.

that message means that, if the port is 3001, you've already got
mod_lisp running or, if the port is 4005, you've already loaded swank
and are trying to load it again.

i notice you mentioned in another message (start-apache-listener),
don't do that. ucw provides its own implementation of the lisp side of
mod_lisp (see ucw/src/backend/mod-lisp.lisp). and will fail miserably
if you try and startup to mod-lisp servers in the same lisp image.

if you're attempting to start ucw from within emacs then be carefull
that if you're runnig slime you won't be able to create a new slime
(the one ucw tries to create) on the same port.

Marco Baringer

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 11:57:26 AM8/3/05
to
GP lisper <spam...@CloudDancer.com> writes:

> Yes, the ucw code is inconsistent. In the setup for apache.conf, the
> port is listed as 3001, but the mod_lisp portion of start.lisp looks
> at 3000.

soma:~/lisp/ucw mb$ find . -type f | xargs grep 3001
./bin/make-image.lisp:(setf (server.backend *default-server*) (make-instance 'ucw:mod-lisp-backend :port 3001))
./bin/make-image.lisp~:(setf (server.backend *default-server*) (make-instance 'ucw:mod-lisp-backend :port 3001))
./bin/utils.lisp: :port 3001)))
./docs/mod-lisp-httpd13.conf:LispServer 127.0.0.1 3001 ucw
./src/backend/aserve.lisp: (port :accessor port :initarg :port :initform 3001)
./src/backend/aserve.lisp~: (port :accessor port :initarg :port :initform 3001)
./src/backend/mod-lisp.lisp: (:default-initargs :port 3001))
./src/backend/mod-lisp.lisp~: (:default-initargs :port 3001))
soma:~/lisp/ucw mb$
soma:~/lisp/ucw mb$ find . -type f | xargs grep 3000
soma:~/lisp/ucw mb$

so i can't seem to find where the port 3000 is mentioned in the ucw
source code. mind pointing out file and line number?

> I don't see how the ucw website claims that it works with cmucl, when
> the mailing list archive shows unresolved problems with cmucl....

there are two possibilities:

1) i'm a lying bastard.

-or-

2) ucw _does_ work with cmucl.

granted i haven't checked against cmucl with the latest ucw (last time
i updated the client's app was last week), but cmucl is as supported
as openmcl, sbcl and clisp are (in other words: i deliver and maintain
ucw applications running on cmucl).

Marco Baringer

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 12:00:16 PM8/3/05
to
Morten Alver <mor...@invalid.no> writes:

> I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
> step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
> UCW. :)

for now your out of luck, but it's the next movie i'm going to make
(though it may be a while before i do).

that said, here's a quick rundown:

1) grab ucw, arnesi and yaclml from darcs:

$ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw_dev
$ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/arnesi
$ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/yaclml

2) grab puri, iterate and rfc2388 for the respective web sites.

3) create a directory with symlinks to the .asd files for all these
libs.

4) add said directory to you asdf:*central-regstry* (put something
along the lines of (push "/path/to/dir/systems/"
asdf:*central-regstry*) to your .sbclrc or similar)

5) edit ucw/bin/start.lisp and make sure that your using the httpd
backend (the (use-httpd-backend) form should be uncommented, all
the others commented or just deleted).

6) from a terminal load up ucw/bin/start.lisp (do this from a "fresh"
lisp image (iow don't load up any packages or onything before
loading the start.lisp file)).

7) point your browesr to http://127.0.0.1:8080/ucw/examples/index.ucw

since you're using the httpd backend you wont get the stylesheets
or the javascirpt stuff (i haven't yet taught it to server static
content) but it should be enough to get you started.

8) open up emacs+slime, type M-x slime-connect RET RET RET.

hth.

GP lisper

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 6:31:10 PM8/3/05
to
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:57:26 +0200, <m...@bese.it> wrote:
>
> GP lisper <spam...@CloudDancer.com> writes:
>
>> Yes, the ucw code is inconsistent. In the setup for apache.conf, the
>> port is listed as 3001, but the mod_lisp portion of start.lisp looks
>> at 3000.
>
> so i can't seem to find where the port 3000 is mentioned in the ucw
> source code. mind pointing out file and line number?

Hmm, actually it was in utils.lisp, and it seems that during my 12 hrs
trying to see why ucw looped over asdf loading, I tweaked the ports
back to 3000. 2005-08-02 original code shows 3001.


>> I don't see how the ucw website claims that it works with cmucl, when
>> the mailing list archive shows unresolved problems with cmucl....
>
> there are two possibilities:
>
> 1) i'm a lying bastard.
>
> -or-
>
> 2) ucw _does_ work with cmucl.

so your mailing list is incomplete?
or your cmucl is out-of-date perhaps?


> granted i haven't checked against cmucl with the latest ucw (last time
> i updated the client's app was last week), but cmucl is as supported
> as openmcl, sbcl and clisp are (in other words: i deliver and maintain
> ucw applications running on cmucl).

which cmucl?
what is your reply to my post on this problem?
have you tried a completely clean install recently?

GP lisper

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 6:32:31 PM8/3/05
to
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:55:59 +0200, <m...@bese.it> wrote:
>
>
> Morten Alver <morte...@none.no> writes:
>
>> Earlier the message gave the port number 3001 instead of 4005, but I can't
>> reproduce that at the moment.
>
> 3001 is the port the apache side of mod_lisp listens on (and the port
> ucw's mod_lisp backend connects to). 4005 is the port the swank
> server (the lisp side of slime) listens on.
>
> that message means that, if the port is 3001, you've already got
> mod_lisp running or, if the port is 4005, you've already loaded swank
> and are trying to load it again.
>
> i notice you mentioned in another message (start-apache-listener),
> don't do that. ucw provides its own implementation of the lisp side of
> mod_lisp (see ucw/src/backend/mod-lisp.lisp). and will fail miserably
> if you try and startup to mod-lisp servers in the same lisp image.
>
> if you're attempting to start ucw from within emacs then be carefull
> that if you're runnig slime you won't be able to create a new slime
> (the one ucw tries to create) on the same port.


Looks like some good additions to the ucw README.

GP lisper

unread,
Aug 3, 2005, 6:43:17 PM8/3/05
to
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:00:16 +0200, <m...@bese.it> wrote:
> Morten Alver <mor...@invalid.no> writes:
>
>> I would be very happy if someone could point me to a (detailed)
>> step-by-step guide to installing, loading and running something like
>> UCW. :)
>
> here's a quick rundown:
>
> 1) grab ucw, arnesi and yaclml from darcs:
>
> $ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw_dev
> $ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/arnesi
> $ darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/repos/yaclml

This is the same as the grabbing the crontab tar ball?


> 2) grab puri, iterate and rfc2388 for the respective web sites.
>
> 3) create a directory with symlinks to the .asd files for all these
> libs.
>
> 4) add said directory to you asdf:*central-regstry* (put something
> along the lines of (push "/path/to/dir/systems/"
> asdf:*central-regstry*) to your .sbclrc or similar)

The swank.asd from CVS also needs to be in *central-registry*.


> 5) edit ucw/bin/start.lisp and make sure that your using the httpd
> backend (the (use-httpd-backend) form should be uncommented, all
> the others commented or just deleted).
>
> 6) from a terminal load up ucw/bin/start.lisp (do this from a "fresh"
> lisp image (iow don't load up any packages or onything before
> loading the start.lisp file)).

Which packages are you concerned about? Surely CLX and CLM,
simple-streams, etc are not a problem? Just avoiding the other web
packages would seem sufficient.


> 7) point your browesr to http://127.0.0.1:8080/ucw/examples/index.ucw
>
> since you're using the httpd backend you wont get the stylesheets
> or the javascirpt stuff (i haven't yet taught it to server static
> content) but it should be enough to get you started.
>
> 8) open up emacs+slime, type M-x slime-connect RET RET RET.
>
> hth.


--
Jump

Marco Baringer

unread,
Aug 4, 2005, 3:07:16 AM8/4/05
to
GP lisper <spam...@CloudDancer.com> writes:

> so your mailing list is incomplete?

it could very well be that i forgot to respond to some issue or that i
sent the response privatly or that it got resolved on irc. which
issues are you worried about exactly? does ucw not not work on your
cmucl?

> or your cmucl is out-of-date perhaps?

could be, but i don't think so.

>> granted i haven't checked against cmucl with the latest ucw (last time
>> i updated the client's app was last week), but cmucl is as supported
>> as openmcl, sbcl and clisp are (in other words: i deliver and maintain
>> ucw applications running on cmucl).
>
> which cmucl?

19a

> what is your reply to my post on this problem?

which problem?

> have you tried a completely clean install recently?

no.

Marco Baringer

unread,
Aug 4, 2005, 3:08:08 AM8/4/05
to
GP lisper <spam...@CloudDancer.com> writes:

> This is the same as the grabbing the crontab tar ball?

yes.

>> 2) grab puri, iterate and rfc2388 for the respective web sites.
>>
>> 3) create a directory with symlinks to the .asd files for all these
>> libs.
>>
>> 4) add said directory to you asdf:*central-regstry* (put something
>> along the lines of (push "/path/to/dir/systems/"
>> asdf:*central-regstry*) to your .sbclrc or similar)
>
> The swank.asd from CVS also needs to be in *central-registry*.

this is mentioned in the README.

>> 5) edit ucw/bin/start.lisp and make sure that your using the httpd
>> backend (the (use-httpd-backend) form should be uncommented, all
>> the others commented or just deleted).
>>
>> 6) from a terminal load up ucw/bin/start.lisp (do this from a "fresh"
>> lisp image (iow don't load up any packages or onything before
>> loading the start.lisp file)).
>
> Which packages are you concerned about? Surely CLX and CLM,
> simple-streams, etc are not a problem? Just avoiding the other web
> packages would seem sufficient.

yes.

gro...@gmail.com

unread,
Aug 4, 2005, 12:16:26 PM8/4/05
to
Marco
(new lisper here)
Thank you so much for making these movies, without these I'd be so
stuck with a non emacs/slime set up. If you could make few more of
these just slowly going through how you set up things /shortcuts to
use/ anything you take for granted by a newb just would not know... it
would be a just fab.

Many thanks
L

GP lisper

unread,
Aug 7, 2005, 4:17:11 AM8/7/05
to
On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:07:16 +0200, <m...@bese.it> wrote:
>
>
> GP lisper <spam...@CloudDancer.com> writes:
>
>> or your cmucl is out-of-date perhaps?
>
> could be, but i don't think so.

Well, bug reports against 19a will receive a request to try under the
latest 19b release.

>>> granted i haven't checked against cmucl with the latest ucw (last time
>>> i updated the client's app was last week), but cmucl is as supported
>>> as openmcl, sbcl and clisp are (in other words: i deliver and maintain
>>> ucw applications running on cmucl).
>>
>> which cmucl?
>
> 19a

Hmm, then a possibility is a new bug in 19b (that I use), or in the 3
patches to 19a (which you don't mention). The endless looping during
asdf compiling was very puzzling. There also have been some platform
differences recently pop up in 19b, the test machine here was x86. My
test box is tied up with a MIPSEL toolchain, when that clears up, I'll
give ucw another shot (at least I learned that aserve works fine).

--
For when I found the holy lisp
So pure the curves that are parens
With a report merely one short text
Of beauty's simplicity --r2q2

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