Comparison of LISP Compilers and translators

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lisp_...@my-deja.com

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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I am interested in asking the opinion of the readership
of this newsgroup on the subject of this post. As you
might know that a beginner, such as myself, can easily
waste a lot of time looking through the various available
compilers and translators in the market.

Is a converter to C better than a compiler?

I am looking for a free OR commercial product that
runs on linux and has source code. It should interface
with X if it is gui.

I am willing to pay dollars. But I definitely want the
source code, and also tutorial on how it runs. Perhaps
a bibliography of papers.

I went to the Lisp user's site but was still confused.

The only reason I am willing to pay dollars is for
learning how to write interpreters, converters and such.
I am working through dragon book and also through some
papers on lisp. I want some kind people on the net to give
a reading list of the papers. Although I want to work
hard, I do not want masochistic references causing
mental constipation.

AT EVERY STAGE, IF THE PREPARATION IS CORRECT, ONE CAN
READILY PERCEIVE THE NEXT STAGE OF KNOWLEDGE. THIS IS
MY EXPERIENCE WITH LEARNING RELATIVITY, AND QUANTUM
MECHANICS. I SAW INTELLECTUALLY PERVERTED, MASOCHISTIC,
TRECHEROUS AND HIGHLY COMPETETIVE PROFS AT MIT AND CALTECH
WHO WOULD WRITE BOOKS FOR _IMPRESSING THEIR COLLEGUES_
AND AT THE SAME TIME MAKING MONEY. READING THE REVIEWS
ON STRUCTURE AND INTERPRETATION OF COMPUTER PROGRAMS
AT AMAZON, IT SEEMS THAT THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY THESE
POMPOUS PEOPLE FROM SNOBISH MIT TO IMPRESS THEIR COLLEAGUES.
THUS I WANT PEOPLE NOT TO MISGUIDE ME TOWARDS SUCH BOOKS
AND PAPERS. ANYWAY COMING BACK TO THE SUBJECT, A FEW
QUESTIONS.

What is Richard Stallman's connection with LISP? He was
disenchanted by the MIT's AI lab's attempt to copyright
the software that he was writing. Was he a student there
ever? Was he working under McCarthy? Who originally
conceived EMACS? I heard that it was honeywell. There is
a paper with reference to honeywell. Is there a document
on the design of emacs?

Winston and Horn on lisp says in the reference:
Stallman, (1979) EMACS, the extensible customizatble
self documenting display editor, MEMO 519 AI lab mit.
Where can I get a copy of it? Is it on the net?

Where can we get this and other MIT memo's for free?
I have enough money for compiler but these publicly
funded reports should be available free.

I wish I could remember the honeywell reference, but I
will inform the readership of cll as soon as I find it.

Thanks for any and all replies. Private replies can be
send via deja, should anyone desire.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Rainer Joswig

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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In article <856isb$vtl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lisp_...@my-deja.com wrote:

> AT AMAZON, IT SEEMS THAT THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY THESE
> POMPOUS PEOPLE FROM SNOBISH MIT TO IMPRESS THEIR COLLEAGUES.

With an "it seems" attitude based on hearsay you won't
get far anyway. Especially when it comes to SICP, Lisp,
c.l.l, whatever, ...

> Winston and Horn on lisp says in the reference:
> Stallman, (1979) EMACS, the extensible customizatble
> self documenting display editor, MEMO 519 AI lab mit.

<ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/classic-hits/AIM-519A.ps>

Rainer Joswig, ISION Internet AG, Harburger Schlossstraße 1,
21079 Hamburg, Germany, Tel: +49 40 77175 226
Email: rainer...@ision.de , WWW: http://www.ision.de/

Robert Monfera

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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lisp_...@my-deja.com wrote:

[...]

Most of what you are asking has been answered before, for example:

- merits of compiling into machine code vs. C
(discussed extensivaly by Duane Rettig and Howard R. Stearns)
- Stallman talking about Lisp and Emacs
(recent reference to the Linuxcare interview with him)

Also, to boost the credibility of your opinion, it's a good idea to
identify yourselves if you criticize writers you didn't read from.

Take care

Robert Monfera

Erik Naggum

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Jan 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/8/00
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* lisp_...@my-deja.com

| I am interested in asking the opinion of the readership of this newsgroup
| on the subject of this post.

this goes without saying, really.

| Is a converter to C better than a compiler?

no.

| I am looking for a free OR commercial product that runs on linux and has
| source code. It should interface with X if it is gui.

how much source code? all of it? if so, why? I have all the source
code to the Linux kernel and almost all the Linux tools, and yet I find
it nearly unreadable and almost completely useless. investing the time
it takes to understand a piece of source code in order to modify a tool
is a decision that should be made after investigating the needs and the
options very closely. the probability that the effort will be worth it
is very slim, indeed. having the _option_ to do so in a particular case,
is, however, priceless. this means you would want the source to specific
fragments of the entire system as you encounter specific problems. this
will be easy to come by if you're a paying customer.

| AT EVERY STAGE, IF THE PREPARATION IS CORRECT, ONE CAN READILY PERCEIVE
| THE NEXT STAGE OF KNOWLEDGE. THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE WITH LEARNING
| RELATIVITY, AND QUANTUM MECHANICS. I SAW INTELLECTUALLY PERVERTED,
| MASOCHISTIC, TRECHEROUS AND HIGHLY COMPETETIVE PROFS AT MIT AND CALTECH
| WHO WOULD WRITE BOOKS FOR _IMPRESSING THEIR COLLEGUES_ AND AT THE SAME
| TIME MAKING MONEY. READING THE REVIEWS ON STRUCTURE AND INTERPRETATION

| OF COMPUTER PROGRAMS AT AMAZON, IT SEEMS THAT THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY
| THESE POMPOUS PEOPLE FROM SNOBISH MIT TO IMPRESS THEIR COLLEAGUES. THUS


| I WANT PEOPLE NOT TO MISGUIDE ME TOWARDS SUCH BOOKS AND PAPERS. ANYWAY
| COMING BACK TO THE SUBJECT, A FEW QUESTIONS.

1 writing in capital letters is reserved for lawyers and retards.

2 judgmental attitudes are severely incompatible with learning.

3 SICP is intended to teach _programming_ to fairly intelligent people. it
is very good at that. less intelligent people struggle, but love it if
they have indeed struggled. most people who want to learn "programming"
these days are fairly stupid and are mainly interested in making quick
bucks through an activity whose similarity to programming is restricted
to looking at a computer monitor.

4 you're the only person so far who comes across as pompous.

| Where can we get this and other MIT memo's for free? I have enough money
| for compiler but these publicly funded reports should be available free.

MIT was a private institution last time I checked. has that changed?

| I wish I could remember the honeywell reference, but I will inform the
| readership of cll as soon as I find it.

most people here know about this reference, already. just like Alexander
Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone and Thomas Alva Edison didn't
invent the light bulb, Richard Stallman didn't first use Lisp in Emacs.
he did, however, invent Emacs (based on TECO), and took great advantage
of the few first steps towards a Lisp-based Emacs made elsewhere and made
it what it is today.

it's actually quite arrogant of you to believe that you are the first
person to have come across a report that you think is "damaging" to Lisp
because you know so little.

I suggest the following:

1 tune down the attitude to approximately zero

2 read SICP for yourself -- it's a widely acclaimed book

3 hold the judgment until you know of what you speak

4 check your facts and references before you post them

5 re-examine your needs -- and make them practical if they are political

#:Erik

Janos Blazi

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Jan 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/10/00
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Erik Naggum <er...@naggum.no> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
31563593...@naggum.no...
> * lisp_...@my-deja.com
> ...

> SICP is intended to teach _programming_ to fairly intelligent people. it
> is very good at that. less intelligent people struggle, but love it if
> they have indeed struggled. most people who want to learn "programming"
> these days are fairly stupid and are mainly interested in making quick
> bucks through an activity whose similarity to programming is restricted
> to looking at a computer monitor.
> #:Erik

I do not think that it is really a question of intelligence, to enjoy SICP.
I should rather say that the reader is supposed te have a certain
mathematical maturity. It is extremely nice if someones is mature enough to
read it. It can be a nightmare for a person who has no substantial
mathematical education. But such a person is not necessarily stupid.
What I do not understand is this: If somebody has managed to learn Quantum
Mechanics and the theory of relativity then this person should be
mathematically sophisticated enough to read SICP *without any difficulty*
and really enjoy it.

Janos B. (G.P.)


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Pierre R. Mai

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Jan 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/10/00
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lisp_...@my-deja.com writes:

[ eliding the attitude ]

> Winston and Horn on lisp says in the reference:
> Stallman, (1979) EMACS, the extensible customizatble
> self documenting display editor, MEMO 519 AI lab mit.

> Where can I get a copy of it? Is it on the net?

Yes there are online versions of this paper on the net. It is
available in PS form from the MIT AI Lab online publication service
(ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/500-999/AIM-519A.ps).
You can also get the modern HTMLized version of this paper at
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html

> Where can we get this and other MIT memo's for free?

Again, try the MIT websites (http://www.ai.mit.edu/pubs.html for the AI
Lab, and http://www.lcs.mit.edu/research/publications/ for the LCS
research publications), they have most of their >1990 reports available
online, and many classic reports as well. All for no money. And if
you have access to a good library it should be no problem to get copies
of MIT reports for little money.

> I wish I could remember the honeywell reference, but I
> will inform the readership of cll as soon as I find it.

You are probably thinking of the papers on Multics Emacs, which was
to my knowledge the first Emacs implementation in/using Lisp. I
generally recommend reading the papers on Multics Emacs (online
version of the "master paper" at http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html)
and Multics MACLISP (http://www.multicians.org/lcp.html), and many of
the design papers on Multics as well (if only to put into perspective
what little mainstream OS's have progressed in the last few decades).

Regs, Pierre.

--
Pierre Mai <pm...@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest Keyserver
"One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is Microsoft-
bashing." [Microsoft memo, see http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]

Jeff Dalton

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Jan 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM1/11/00
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I'm pretty sure Stallman wrote the first Emacs, in TECO.

And that the first Emacs in Lisp was written, using Multics MacLisp,
by Bernard S. Greenberg. There was a paper in the 1980 Lisp conference.

The National Technical Information Service used to be able to provide
copies of MIT memos.

SICP is not for everyone. Indeed, there's another book - I think it's
Simply Scheme - that seems to be intended in part for people who would
find SICP too difficult. The reviews at Amazon are bipolar. Most of
them give either one star (the lowest number possible) or five (the
most you can give). We Lispers tend not to think very much of the
one-star types, but some of them do have a point. Remember that it's
difficult for experienced Lispers to see what the book would be like
to a student, because we know too much. [Note that I'm not saying
what their "point" is - that would take time I don't have right now.]

And, to judge from the reviews, some people who are teaching using
SICP do so with some hostility towards the book. When students, and
even instructors, feel they are being forced to use a book that does
not immediately appeal to them, they will rather tend to dislike it.

Approach the book with an open mind and try to make sense of it.
It will be worth the effort. If you can't manage an open mind,
wait a while and try again.

-- jeff

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