This newsgroup is not a help desk

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David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 7:44:47 AM7/22/10
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"This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
anyone who has spent time in it. I enjoy advising people here when I
have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.

Discussion threads may lead to solutions or may lead to nothing. It
depends on a number of factors: the volume of posts, the clarity of
the question, the number of interested parties around at the time,
etc. Some questions may well go unanswered (though far fewer than in
Web forums) or may only lead to highly technical (and possibly
unrelated) arguments among regulars. Usenet is always a gamble.

I want to remind everyone that I run a very reasonably priced support
service for browser scripting professionals. It's a fixed monthly
fee, up to three questions* per day (but obviously not three *every
day*) and answers are *guaranteed* within 24 hours and typically come
much sooner.

In the first few months that I've offered this service, I can only
think of a handful of questions that involved any sort of back and
forth discussion. It's virtually always asked, answered, done. Of
course, you still have to write good questions. :)

It's a month-to-month contract and if you ask too many questions in a
month (or your questions require more than a minute effort to answer),
future rates are subject to renegotiation, though I've yet to have to
do that. Standard rates for new clients may be raised at any time as
well as I don't run a phone room (all answers come directly from me)
and there are only so many hours in a month. Existing clients are
guaranteed the same rate for a year.

Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but having been recently exhorted
to share my knowledge and experience in book form, I thought I should
remind readers that books are a relatively limited (and static)
medium. When problems come up, the odds of finding the specific
answer in a book are long. Confusion about concepts or best practices
have better odds, but are still far from a sure thing, no matter how
many books you buy. In stark contrast, the chance of finding the
answer in an email or IM from me is a virtual certainty.

So if you have to deal with the rigors of browser scripting on a daily
basis, what are you waiting for? Despite virtually zero advertising
so far, I'm still disappointed in the number of sign-ups. Seeing
thousands of people getting wrong answers on StackOverflow or posing
questions at the bottom of blog posts in hopes of a lightning strike
tells me that there is a huge market for this service (a sort of
insurance policy against time-wasting). And, of course, there's the
almost daily occurrence of newcomers to this group getting frustrated
by the "staffers" discussions of their present problems.

*Conditions apply regarding the scope and depth of questions that may
be asked

rf

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Jul 22, 2010, 8:12:43 AM7/22/10
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"David Mark" <dmark....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

> "This newsgroup is not a help desk"

And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.


Garrett Smith

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Jul 22, 2010, 2:21:57 PM7/22/10
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On 2010-07-22 04:44 AM, David Mark wrote:
[...]

> Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but having been recently exhorted
> to share my knowledge and experience in book form,
Apparently "Bring me the head of John Resig" with the accompanying "My
Library" license ("ready for framing") was abandoned.

<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/e736c31dd33a327e?hl=en&dmode=source>
--
Garrett

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 3:00:15 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 2:21 pm, Garrett Smith <dhtmlkitc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2010-07-22 04:44 AM, David Mark wrote:
> [...]> Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but having been recently exhorted
> > to share my knowledge and experience in book form,
>
> Apparently "Bring me the head of John Resig" with the accompanying "My
> Library" license ("ready for framing") was abandoned.

Apparently:-

A. You are not minding your own business.
B. You haven't read the recent discussion about my book.

Do catch up and stop being such a gossip.

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 3:00:44 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 8:12 am, "rf" <r...@z.invalid> wrote:
> "David Mark" <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> > "This newsgroup is not a help desk"
>
> And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.

Not necessarily. If it is of interest to JS developers...

Matt Kruse

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Jul 22, 2010, 3:23:06 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 6:44 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the blatant advertisement

You should be. It's pretty pathetic. Even for you.

A fixed-cost help desk that answers questions whose answers can be
surely found for free... as long as you ask smart questions... and
only up to three a day... but of course not every day. Are you
serious?!

It's hard to take seriously your criticisms of libraries (which are
generalized enough to solve most peoples' problems so they can avoid
asking complex browser scripting questions to begin with) when you
blatantly advertise a for-profit alternative.

You'd be better-off spamming the support forums of those libraries
whose business you have been trying to take for years. But then, that
might make you look even more pathetic.

Matt Kruse

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 4:02:02 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 3:23 pm, Matt Kruse <m...@thekrusefamily.com> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 6:44 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry for the blatant advertisement
>
> You should be.

Not really, it's a pretty short list of people in here for whom the
"insurance" would be a bad gamble.

> It's pretty pathetic. Even for you.

LOL. You are definitely not on the list. How many times have I
bailed you out?

>
> A fixed-cost help desk that answers questions whose answers can be
> surely found for free... as long as you ask smart questions...

Did you read my post at all? And are you really so naive to think
that anyone can do what I do? How many people with my experience can
you count on to answer questions in this group? Other than Richard
Cornford, I defy you to name *one*.

> and
> only up to three a day... but of course not every day. Are you
> serious?!

Yes, definitely. The business model is not of my conception, but has
worked well for me so far. The idea is that you can't ask dozens of
questions a month, but (in a pinch) can ask up to three in a single
day. It's insurance. If you abuse it, your rates go up.

>
> It's hard to take seriously your criticisms of libraries (which are
> generalized enough to solve most peoples' problems so they can avoid
> asking complex browser scripting questions to begin with) when you
> blatantly advertise a for-profit alternative.

That doesn't follow at all. In fact, it follows that after *years* of
helping people figure out their self-imposed library-related problems,
I have come to the conclusion that such people will not give up on
their chosen libraries and are therefore in need of a full-time
service. I'm sure you get that (a child would), but you want to tack
on a disingenuous piece of baloney. Are you really so concerned that
people might get the help they need?

And none of my current clients are library users anyway. They are
completely competent developers who realize that they don't have time
to figure out everything on their own.

>
> You'd be better-off spamming the support forums of those libraries
> whose business you have been trying to take for years.

How does "don't use a GP library (including mine)" which had been my
mantra for the years you have been following me represent "trying to
take" anything?

And I mention it here because this where the queries about a book
originated and recent posts have demonstrated quite clearly that,
after all of these years, people are still looking for a real JS help
desk.

> But then, that
> might make you look even more pathetic.
>

As pathetic as a known jQuery apologist (and virtual basket-case on
his worst days) wasting time in a thread that is none of his concern?
I mean, I know you are my biggest fan and all, but why don't you go
play around in the jQuery forums. That's your place.

You'd do well to admit defeat on this whole browser scripting thing
and cough up the necessary premiums (and you know it). ;)

SteveYoungTbird

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Jul 22, 2010, 4:59:11 PM7/22/10
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On 07/22/2010 01:44 PM, David Mark wrote:


> Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but having been recently exhorted
> to share my knowledge and experience in book form, I thought I should
> remind readers that books are a relatively limited (and static)
> medium.

Similar to the cycle of life this is the cycle of DM.

As I wrote here
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thread/f2e352c258177b52/653e68041369c952?q=david+mark#653e68041369c952

It's the usual garbage:
"All JavaScript libraries are rubbish, I'll write a really good one"
"All JavaScript books are rubbish. I'll write a really good one"
"Dojo is the best JavaScript library. I'll make it really good"
Nothing came of any of this so now we're back at:
"All JavaScript libraries are rubbish, I'll write a really good one"
It'll be the book next.

Except instead of the book we get this 'cos its better.

> Despite virtually zero advertising so far, I'm still disappointed in the number of sign-ups.

This statement is priceless. You are disappointed that people are not
signing up despite the fact that you are not advertising?

> And, of course, there's the
> almost daily occurrence of newcomers to this group getting frustrated
> by the "staffers" discussions of their present problems.

This has been less of a problem over the last few weeks but
unfortunately you're back.

>
> *Conditions apply regarding the scope and depth of questions that may
> be asked

Of course!

Steve.

Stefan Weiss

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Jul 22, 2010, 5:10:02 PM7/22/10
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On 22/07/10 22:02, David Mark wrote:
> The business model is not of my conception, but has
> worked well for me so far. The idea is that you can't ask dozens of
> questions a month, but (in a pinch) can ask up to three in a single
> day. It's insurance. If you abuse it, your rates go up.

So what are the rates for your insurance? There's no information about
this service on your website.

I hope I don't need to have an existing account to get an answer to this
question ;-) You should also be a little more explicit about what
exactly you're offering. Authorities usually frown on the type of
businessmen who show up uninvited, often in dark suits, and try to
convince shop owners that it would be wise to buy some "insurance"...


--
stefan

S.T.

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Jul 22, 2010, 5:23:11 PM7/22/10
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On 7/22/2010 1:59 PM, SteveYoungTbird wrote:
>> Despite virtually zero advertising so far, I'm still disappointed in
>> the number of sign-ups.
>
> This statement is priceless. You are disappointed that people are not
> signing up despite the fact that you are not advertising?

I most enjoyed how the rates go up in the event "your questions require
more than a minute effort to answer". That's classic.

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:10:25 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 4:59 pm, SteveYoungTbird <stephen.yo...@chello.at> wrote:
> On 07/22/2010 01:44 PM, David Mark wrote:
>
> > Sorry for the blatant advertisement, but having been recently exhorted
> > to share my knowledge and experience in book form, I thought I should
> > remind readers that books are a relatively limited (and static)
> > medium.
>
> Similar to the cycle of life this is the cycle of DM.

?

>
> As I wrote herehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thr...

Nobody should be interested in your writings at this point. Your
reputation was shot long ago.

>
> It's the usual garbage:
> "All JavaScript libraries are rubbish, I'll write a really good one"

All *existing* (major GP) libraries are rubbish... Get it? And I
obviously wrote a much better one, as evidenced by the patterns
showing up in the rest of them (years later).

> "All JavaScript books are rubbish. I'll write a really good one"

They are and I am.

> "Dojo is the best JavaScript library. I'll make it really good"

I never said anything like that. I said it would be the best when I
got done with it. I rewrote virtually all of it if you recall. Not
my fault that their egos couldn't take the hit.

> Nothing came of any of this so now we're back at:
> "All JavaScript libraries are rubbish, I'll write a really good one"

Uh, see above.

> It'll be the book next.

You are repeating yourself (as usual). I didn't bring up the book,
other readers did. Best to read before you write.

>
> Except instead of the book we get this 'cos its better.

What does that mean and why are you obsessed with my various
endeavors? It's creepy.

>
> > Despite virtually zero advertising so far, I'm still disappointed in the number of sign-ups.
>
> This statement is priceless. You are disappointed that people are not
> signing up despite the fact that you are not advertising?

Do you not understand "virtually"? Or are you just bleating randomly
(as usual)?

>
> > And, of course, there's the
> > almost daily occurrence of newcomers to this group getting frustrated
> > by the "staffers" discussions of their present problems.
>
> This has been less of a problem over the last few weeks but
> unfortunately you're back.

Don't be stupid. When I'm away, far less gets done here.

>
>
>
> > *Conditions apply regarding the scope and depth of questions that may
> > be asked
>
> Of course!
>

Yes. Don't bother asking things like "Why is Steve Young such a
nitwit?" It's too open-ended.

Alan Gutierrez

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:14:35 PM7/22/10
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It is in bad taste.

--
Alan Gutierrez - al...@blogometer.com - http://twitter.com/bigeasy

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:14:34 PM7/22/10
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Broad open-ended questions are not included. Those typically lead to
consulting, which is a different service. And you'd be surprised what
I can answer in a minute. ;)

The practice of limiting the scope and depth of questions is standard
in the industry. But I suppose you just want to post foolishness
(anonymously).

Thanks for your interest anyway. :)

Alan Gutierrez

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:16:55 PM7/22/10
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I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were the man who owned USENET. Is this
thread any of my concern? May I post in it.

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:24:05 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 6:16 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 22, 3:23 pm, Matt Kruse <m...@thekrusefamily.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 22, 6:44 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As pathetic as a known jQuery apologist (and virtual basket-case on
> > his worst days) wasting time in a thread that is none of his concern?
>
> I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were the man who owned USENET.

Yep, picked it up for a song. It's a fixer-upper. :)

> Is this
> thread any of my concern? May I post in it.

Depends on what you have to say. So far, I'm leaning towards no. :)

But seriously, Matt Kruse (and a couple of other jQuery addicts) had
nothing to say and said it poorly. There's really no call for that.
Such types tend to blame me for bringing them down with regard to all
of the time they have invested in "learning" jQuery. Odd considering
how much of my advice and code have made it into jQuery. You'd think
they'd thank me! ;)

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:27:22 PM7/22/10
to
On Jul 22, 6:14 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 22, 8:12 am, "rf" <r...@z.invalid> wrote:
> >> "David Mark" <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk"
> >> And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.
>
> > Not necessarily.  If it is of interest to JS developers...
>
> It is in bad taste.
>

It's one post (out of over 5,000). Get over it.

S.T.

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:35:08 PM7/22/10
to
On 7/22/2010 3:14 PM, David Mark wrote:
>> I most enjoyed how the rates go up in the event "your questions require
>> more than a minute effort to answer". That's classic.
>
> Broad open-ended questions are not included. Those typically lead to
> consulting, which is a different service. And you'd be surprised what
> I can answer in a minute. ;)

I read 'minute' as [mai-niut], not [mi-nit].

Both possibilities strike me as odd.

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:35:32 PM7/22/10
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On Jul 22, 5:10 pm, Stefan Weiss <krewech...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/07/10 22:02, David Mark wrote:
>
> > The business model is not of my conception, but has
> > worked well for me so far.  The idea is that you can't ask dozens of
> > questions a month, but (in a pinch) can ask up to three in a single
> > day.  It's insurance.  If you abuse it, your rates go up.
>
> So what are the rates for your insurance?

Your first month is $100 (US). If it turns out you are working on
some huge RIA during that month and ask dozens of questions, then we
will clearly have to renegotiate for subsequent renewals.

> There's no information about
> this service on your website.

I've been rolling it out slowly to see how it goes. And if you
notice, there's no information on my Website about anything but My
Library at the moment. That will change in the near future.

>
> I hope I don't need to have an existing account to get an answer to this
> question ;-)

Nah, as mentioned, Usenet is always free. If I'm around, you may well
be in luck. If not, you still may get a timely and useful answer, but
the odds definitely drop. My clients are businesses (or individual
entrepreneurs) and so don't like to gamble every time they hit a brick
wall. That's the point.

> You should also be a little more explicit about what
> exactly you're offering.

It was just a teaser post. A proper marketing effort is in the
works. I'm not in any big hurry. It's a new sideline and I wanted to
see how it would work before offering it to the whole world.
Insurance companies go under all the time from being overly optimistic
about actuarial matters.

And if you want more information, you are welcome to write (or IM).

> Authorities usually frown on the type of
> businessmen who show up uninvited, often in dark suits, and try to
> convince shop owners that it would be wise to buy some "insurance"...

Really nice Website you got there... Shame if something were to
happen to it. After all, libraries break. :)

The difference is that I'm not selling the problems, just solutions.

Alan Gutierrez

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Jul 22, 2010, 6:46:49 PM7/22/10
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David Mark wrote:
> On Jul 22, 6:14 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
>> David Mark wrote:
>>> On Jul 22, 8:12 am, "rf" <r...@z.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "David Mark" <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk"
>>>> And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.
>>> Not necessarily. If it is of interest to JS developers...
>> It is in bad taste.
>>
>
> It's one post (out of over 5,000). Get over it.

I'm offering feedback. It is in bad taste.

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 7:01:29 PM7/22/10
to
On Jul 22, 6:46 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 22, 6:14 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
> >> David Mark wrote:
> >>> On Jul 22, 8:12 am, "rf" <r...@z.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> "David Mark" <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk"
> >>>> And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.
> >>> Not necessarily.  If it is of interest to JS developers...
> >> It is in bad taste.
>
> > It's one post (out of over 5,000).  Get over it.
>
> I'm offering feedback. It is in bad taste.
>

Fair enough. To a certain point I agree (and acknowledged this in the
post). On Usenet (as in life) you take the good with the bad.

Andrew Poulos

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Jul 22, 2010, 7:13:07 PM7/22/10
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On 23/07/2010 8:46 AM, Alan Gutierrez wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
>> On Jul 22, 6:14 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
>>> David Mark wrote:
>>>> On Jul 22, 8:12 am, "rf" <r...@z.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "David Mark" <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:93a879bd-f6b5-42fe...@g1g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk"
>>>>> And it's also not a place to advertise ones wares.
>>>> Not necessarily. If it is of interest to JS developers...
>>> It is in bad taste.
>>>
>>
>> It's one post (out of over 5,000). Get over it.
>
> I'm offering feedback. It is in bad taste.

I don't think there's much wrong with a small developer putting an ad in
for their services every once in a while. Especially when the developer
spends so much time "helping" others in this group.

Andrew Poulos

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 7:23:16 PM7/22/10
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Thanks. :) But what do the quotes indicate? I have helped lots of
people, though many of them resisted my efforts furiously, right up
until the point of the inevitable epiphany.


IncaRedible

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Jul 22, 2010, 7:44:06 PM7/22/10
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Alan Gutierrez wrote:

>David Mark wrote:
>> On Jul 22, 3:23 pm, Matt Kruse <m...@thekrusefamily.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 22, 6:44 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>
>> As pathetic as a known jQuery apologist (and virtual basket-case on
>> his worst days) wasting time in a thread that is none of his concern?
>
>I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were the man who owned USENET. Is this
>thread any of my concern? May I post in it.

Do you think that you're adding to the discussion, or simply venting your
hostility?

Andrew Poulos

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Jul 22, 2010, 8:55:39 PM7/22/10
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Yes, precisely. Sometimes helping others means giving them a kick in the
pants (it happened to me at least once when I was insistent on coding
something stupidly).

Andrew Poulos

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 9:03:09 PM7/22/10
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Which is how I originally intended it. I'm complex. :)

>
> Both possibilities strike me as odd.

I suppose they would. Struggling beginners (of questionable mental
faculties in your case) are often unable to grasp the capabilities of
those with considerably more experience.

I'm reminded of one guy (who didn't know HTML from HVAC) telling me
not to "waste time trying" to make a simple form work in IE6. Clearly
he was projecting his own level of proficiency (which, as far as he
knew was fairly high). Intelligent people, who can put aside their
own egos, know how to use delegation to their benefit. ;)

David Mark

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Jul 22, 2010, 9:07:54 PM7/22/10
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Some people learn and do better; some people chant dubious rhetoric to
ease the pain of endless futility. A currently popular number goes
something like: "Awww, UR just jealous coz I use jQuery and UR trying
to take their tools." Or something like that. :)

Garrett Smith

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Jul 22, 2010, 11:36:18 PM7/22/10
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comp.lang.javascript is an unmoderated newsgroup and so although anybody
can post anything, anyone else may comment if he feels that post is
off-topic or inappropriate.

Anyone who is pointing out that a post is off-topic is, as DM put it,
"not minding [his] own business." Those individuals are proactively
discouraging such discussions and probably for good reasons, such as to
encourage more productive discussions.
--
Garrett

SteveYoungGoogle

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Jul 23, 2010, 3:33:02 AM7/23/10
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On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.

Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.

> Sorry for the blatant advertisement,

Don't worry about it, this newsgroup is swamped with posts offering
junk (meds, porn, knock/offs etc)

Cheers, Steve.

David Mark

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Jul 23, 2010, 5:02:24 AM7/23/10
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On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> > anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> > have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> > solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
>
> Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.
>

What posts would those be? In any event, it's on the house. :)

SteveYoungGoogle

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Jul 23, 2010, 6:49:10 AM7/23/10
to

I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project. I could
give you many examples such as here
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thread/d5eb5cbd0436f202/c7466c3598b7ab41?q=mark&lnk=ol&#
where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
avail. So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
others.

For your information I am not a EMCAScript developer, I am a Microwave
Radio Engineer and several years ago I decided I wanted to learn
EMCAScript in order to provide microwave link planning tools, for
free, on the Web. The Line of Sight tool is here
http://members.chello.at/stephen.joung/indexDistanceElevation.html and
the Link Planning tool is here http://members.chello.at/stephen.joung/indexMW_Distance20.html

But I soon learned that you have a real anger directed at newcomers or
anyone who asks a question that you consider to be simple and rather
than let someone else answer you feel duty bound to insult the
questioner and his question. I’m afraid this is what has made
EMCAScript newcomers stay away in droves and without fresh blood
c.l.j. has become stale. In my opinion it’s mainly down to you and
this is why I sometimes cannot stop myself from knocking you off the
pedestal you have put yourself on.

Cheers, Steve.

Kenneth Tilton

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 10:36:30 AM7/23/10
to
SteveYoungGoogle wrote:
> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
>>>> anyone who has spent time in it. I enjoy advising people here when I
>>>> have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
>>>> solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
>>> Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.
>> What posts would those be? In any event, it's on the house. :)
>
> I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
> turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
> I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
> library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project. I could
> give you many examples such as here
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thread/d5eb5cbd0436f202/c7466c3598b7ab41?q=mark&lnk=ol&#
> where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
> avail. So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
> others.

Why didn't you use a killfile entry? That's what I do since I know that
I lack the will power to ignore the ding dongs. Works well.

I agree, however, that this group is a wasteland compared to other
groups where one can usually get help in spite of the ever-present ding
dongs in any group, and that it may well be because of the pack of
hyenas led by Mr. Mark.

kt

--
http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld

Ry Nohryb

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 10:51:31 AM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 12:49 pm, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

>
> I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
> turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
> I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
> library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project. I could
> give you many examples such as herehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thr...

> where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
> avail. So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
> others.
>
> (...)

>
> But I soon learned that you have a real anger directed at newcomers or
> anyone who asks a question that you consider to be simple and rather
> than let someone else answer you feel duty bound to insult the
> questioner and his question. I’m afraid this is what has made
> EMCAScript newcomers stay away in droves and without fresh blood
> c.l.j. has become stale.

I couldn't agree any more.

> In my opinion it’s mainly down to you

...and some others...
--
Jorge.

SteveYoungGoogle

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 12:40:21 PM7/23/10
to
:s/EMCAScript/ECMAScript
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Alan Gutierrez

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:02:24 PM7/23/10
to

I'm new here and I'm already put off by the no libraries auto post. I
can see where it comes from.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:28:26 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 6:49 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>

wrote:
> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> > > > anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> > > > have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> > > > solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
>
> > > Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.
>
> > What posts would those be?  In any event, it's on the house.  :)
>
> I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
> turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
> I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
> library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project.

Not only is that a blatant fiction; but, of your four posts this year,
it appears three were direct responses to me. Odd for someone who
doesn't want to talk to me. :)

> I could
> give you many examples such as herehttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thr...


> where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
> avail.

I won't bother to read your regurgitation, but will go way out on a
limb and say you didn't know what was good for you.

> So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
> others.

It's interesting that virtually all of your recent posts revolve
around me and your "suspicions" about me.

>
> For your information I am not a EMCAScript developer,

That much is clear sir.

> I am a Microwave
> Radio Engineer and several years ago I decided I wanted to learn
> EMCAScript in order to provide microwave link planning tools, for
> free, on the Web.

I think you've been standing too close to your radios. :)

> The Line of Sight tool is herehttp://members.chello.at/stephen.joung/indexDistanceElevation.htmland
> the Link Planning tool is herehttp://members.chello.at/stephen.joung/indexMW_Distance20.html


How ironic. An advertisement for your latest product or "fad".

>
> But I soon learned that you have a real anger directed at newcomers or
> anyone who asks a question that you consider to be simple and rather
> than let someone else answer you feel duty bound to insult the
> questioner and his question.

No, that's simply a mirage.

> I’m afraid this is what has made
> EMCAScript newcomers stay away in droves and without fresh blood
> c.l.j. has become stale.

Quite the contrary. I'm clearly the biggest draw here. ;)

> In my opinion it’s mainly down to you and
> this is why I sometimes cannot stop myself from knocking you off the
> pedestal you have put yourself on.

You are like a feather trying to topple a mountain.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:32:02 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 10:36 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SteveYoungGoogle wrote:
> > On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> >>>> anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> >>>> have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> >>>> solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
> >>> Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.
> >> What posts would those be?  In any event, it's on the house.  :)
>
> > I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
> > turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
> > I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
> > library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project. I could
> > give you many examples such as here
> >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thr...

> > where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
> > avail. So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
> > others.
>
> Why didn't you use a killfile entry? That's what I do since I know that
> I lack the will power to ignore the ding dongs. Works well.

You are clearly fibbing Kenny. You Spam this group with your algebra
tutorial disasters and when I note their general awfulness (despite my
numerous attempts to help you avoid such results), your replies come
fast and furious.

Or perhaps your killfile is on the fritz?

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:33:10 PM7/23/10
to

Work on it. :)

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:33:58 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 12:40 pm, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> :s/EMCAScript/ECMAScript

It's fun to program with... E-M-C-A. It's fun to program with... :)

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:34:43 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 1:02 pm, Alan Gutierrez <a...@blogometer.com> wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton wrote:
> > SteveYoungGoogle wrote:
> >> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> >>>>> anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> >>>>> have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> >>>>> solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
> >>>> Personally, I would be happy to pay you not to answer my posts.
> >>> What posts would those be?  In any event, it's on the house.  :)
>
> >> I stopped posting to c.l.j because you invariably snipped my posts and
> >> turned the thread into either rant against jQuery (which, by the way,
> >> I have never used just as I have never used any other framework or
> >> library) or into an advertisement for your latest fad/project. I could
> >> give you many examples such as here
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thr...

>
> >> where I begged you not to get involved and let others answer but to no
> >> avail. So eventually I stopped posting, as I suspect have so many
> >> others.
>
> > Why didn't you use a killfile entry? That's what I do since I know that
> > I lack the will power to ignore the ding dongs. Works well.
>
> > I agree, however, that this group is a wasteland compared to other
> > groups where one can usually get help in spite of the ever-present ding
> > dongs in any group, and that it may well be because of the pack of
> > hyenas led by Mr. Mark.
>
> I'm new here and I'm already put off by the no libraries auto post. I
> can see where it comes from.
>

Um, you might want to review Kenny's portfolio... ;)

Alan Gutierrez

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 1:43:09 PM7/23/10
to

Ad Hominem much?

SteveYoungGoogle

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 2:02:34 PM7/23/10
to

Yeah like I said stale.


Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 2:18:57 PM7/23/10
to

That's not an ad hominem. Reviewing Kenny's recent posts will
disabuse you of your notions about "no libraries" posts.
Honestly! :)

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 2:19:35 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 2:02 pm, SteveYoungGoogle <stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>

For someone who would ostensibly pay not to talk to me, you sure talk
to me a lot. :)

Kenneth Tilton

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 2:19:47 PM7/23/10
to
> tutorial disasters...

You forgot, I was talking about this:

http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/

It was one of The Haters who jumped on an otherwise unhyped link in my
sig and did me the favor of giving me an excuse to spam this group about
the terrible act of helping kids learn Algebra.

> ...and when I note their general awfulness (despite my


> numerous attempts to help you avoid such results), your replies come
> fast and furious.
>
> Or perhaps your killfile is on the fritz?

Or perhaps I did not put you in my killfile? You're OK, you have
redeeming social value. Your groupies failed that test.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 2:57:17 PM7/23/10
to

How could I forget? You've been trumpeting that mess in here for
weeks.

>
> It was one of The Haters who jumped on an otherwise unhyped link in my
> sig and did me the favor of giving me an excuse to spam

Spam and ye shall receive. Just please refrain from whining about it
endlessly.

> this group about
> the terrible act of helping kids learn Algebra.

It's not that terrible.

>
> > ...and when I note their general awfulness (despite my
> > numerous attempts to help you avoid such results), your replies come
> > fast and furious.
>
> > Or perhaps your killfile is on the fritz?
>
> Or perhaps I did not put you in my killfile?

See Kenny flop.

> You're OK, you have
> redeeming social value.

I'm not an art form, Kenny.

> Your groupies failed that test.

Characterizing anyone in this group that agrees with my point of view
(or criticizes your demos) as a "groupie" or "Hater" has no redeeming
value. You come off as a vengeful simpleton.

Garrett Smith

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 5:13:37 PM7/23/10
to
On 2010-07-23 10:28 AM, David Mark wrote:
> On Jul 23, 6:49 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

[...]


> Quite the contrary. I'm clearly the biggest draw here. ;)
>

You're your own advocate.
--
Garrett

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 6:24:33 PM7/23/10
to

And you are Costello to my Abbott. :)

Dr J R Stockton

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 4:26:27 PM7/23/10
to
In comp.lang.javascript message <93a879bd-f6b5-42fe-a6a7-1ee2f87d4556@g1
g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:44:47, David Mark
<dmark....@gmail.com> posted:

>"This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
>anyone who has spent time in it. I enjoy advising people here when I
>have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
>solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.


Then you should ignore those articles. Others like being helpful, and
see no need to charge for that. Remember that you are fundamentally
unimportant in the overall scheme of things.

This is an international medium - even if you do not mention actual
costs, you should say what currencies can give prices in and will
accept.

--
(c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ??@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
Dates - miscdate.htm Year 2000 - date2000.htm Critical Dates - critdate.htm
Euro computing - european.htm UK Y2k mini-FAQ: y2k_mfaq.txt Don't Mail News

David Mark

unread,
Jul 23, 2010, 7:18:28 PM7/23/10
to
On Jul 23, 4:26 pm, Dr J R Stockton <reply1...@merlyn.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> In comp.lang.javascript message <93a879bd-f6b5-42fe-a6a7-1ee2f87d4556@g1
> g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 22 Jul 2010 04:44:47, David Mark
> <dmark.cins...@gmail.com> posted:

>
> >"This newsgroup is not a help desk" is likely a familiar refrain for
> >anyone who has spent time in it.  I enjoy advising people here when I
> >have the time, but like all who do similar, I cannot be expected to
> >solve (or even attempt to solve) every problem that floats in here.
>
> Then you should ignore those articles.  Others like being helpful, and
> see no need to charge for that.

Good for them. But businesses don't like betting on if-comes.

> Remember that you are fundamentally
> unimportant in the overall scheme of things.

Not in this group. That should be evident by now. If not, you
haven't been paying attention.

>
> This is an international medium - even if you do not mention actual
> costs, you should say what currencies can give prices in and

US dollars. Of course, I believe my payment service does conversions
for many currencies.

> will accept

Glad to have you aboard, doc. A representative will be with you
shortly... :)

Kenneth Tilton

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 12:59:54 AM7/24/10
to
David Mark wrote:
> On Jul 23, 5:13 pm, Garrett Smith <dhtmlkitc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-07-23 10:28 AM, David Mark wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 23, 6:49 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [...]> Quite the contrary. I'm clearly the biggest draw here. ;)
>>
>> You're your own advocate.
>
> And you are Costello to my Abbott. :)

And Costello was the funny one, and perhaps smarter. Abbot said Costello
had "Who's On First?" down on the first take while he himself labored to
get it right... ok, good analogy.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 1:25:53 AM7/24/10
to
On Jul 24, 12:59 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 23, 5:13 pm, Garrett Smith <dhtmlkitc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 2010-07-23 10:28 AM, David Mark wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 23, 6:49 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Jul 23, 11:02 am, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>>> On Jul 23, 3:33 am, SteveYoungGoogle<stephen.jo...@googlemail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Jul 22, 1:44 pm, David Mark<dmark.cins...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> [...]> Quite the contrary.  I'm clearly the biggest draw here.  ;)
>
> >> You're your own advocate.
>
> > And you are Costello to my Abbott.  :)
>
> And Costello was the funny one,

Uh, you laughed *at* him, not with him.

> and perhaps smarter.

Can I presume you've never watched their bits?

> Abbot said Costello
> had "Who's On First?" down on the first take while he himself labored to
> get it right... ok, good analogy.
>

Ah, I see; you cannot make the distinction between the actors and
their characters. Turn off the TV, Kenny.

Kenneth Tilton

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 1:48:26 AM7/24/10
to
David Mark wrote:
> On Jul 24, 12:59 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And Costello was the funny one,
>
> Uh, you laughed *at* him, not with him.

Poppycock. Those bits work precisely because the "stupid" side is
smarter than the "smart" side. Gracie and Allen? Hello? Stick to HTML,
it's a trivially small pond in which to tread water, you have half a prayer.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 2:08:40 AM7/24/10
to
On Jul 24, 1:48 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 12:59 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> And Costello was the funny one,
>
> > Uh, you laughed *at* him, not with him.
>
> Poppycock. Those bits work precisely because the "stupid" side is
> smarter than the "smart" side. Gracie and Allen? Hello?

That's another act. Say goodnight Kenny!

And if you think Costello's character was the "smart one", you should
try watching some of their bits. The baseball one is a classic, but
I'm reminded of an even better one where he is trying to do basic
arithmetic on a blackboard (with less than successful results that
make sense only to him).

> Stick to HTML,
> it's a trivially small pond in which to tread water, you have half a prayer.

Why do you continually seek to give me advice? That's pretty
laughable considering...

Kenneth Tilton

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 8:25:36 AM7/24/10
to
David Mark wrote:
> On Jul 24, 1:48 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> David Mark wrote:
>>> On Jul 24, 12:59 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> And Costello was the funny one,
>>> Uh, you laughed *at* him, not with him.
>> Poppycock. Those bits work precisely because the "stupid" side is
>> smarter than the "smart" side. Gracie and Allen? Hello?
>
> That's another act. Say goodnight Kenny!
>
> And if you think Costello's character was the "smart one", you should
> try watching some of their bits. The baseball one is a classic, but
> I'm reminded of an even better one where he is trying to do basic
> arithmetic on a blackboard (with less than successful results that
> make sense only to him).

Finally you contribute something to this NG! Didn't know that one.
Costello is brilliant, proves 7x13=28 three ways!

>
>> Stick to HTML,
>> it's a trivially small pond in which to tread water, you have half a prayer.
>
> Why do you continually seek to give me advice? That's pretty
> laughable considering...

Goodnight, Kenny.

David Mark

unread,
Jul 24, 2010, 4:21:59 PM7/24/10
to
On Jul 24, 8:25 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Mark wrote:
> > On Jul 24, 1:48 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> David Mark wrote:
> >>> On Jul 24, 12:59 am, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> And Costello was the funny one,
> >>> Uh, you laughed *at* him, not with him.
> >> Poppycock. Those bits work precisely because the "stupid" side is
> >> smarter than the "smart" side. Gracie and Allen? Hello?
>
> > That's another act.  Say goodnight Kenny!
>
> > And if you think Costello's character was the "smart one", you should
> > try watching some of their bits.  The baseball one is a classic, but
> > I'm reminded of an even better one where he is trying to do basic
> > arithmetic on a blackboard (with less than successful results that
> > make sense only to him).
>
> Finally you contribute something to this NG! Didn't know that one.
> Costello is brilliant, proves 7x13=28 three ways!

Yes, I thought that was a perfect example. Still think he is the
"smart" one? :)

In this case, he is wasting time trying to "prove" a concept that
exists only in his own head.

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