[JAVA] [EVALUATION] - The Java Failure (Sorry: The Java(tm) Failure)

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Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 5:32:57 AM2/1/05
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I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.

Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized unbelievable
things.

I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.

Let me know if you know one.

-
-
-

"
Finally, Sun Microsystems seems to be somehow really extra-ordinary.

Some uncommon definitions of its executive roles / units.

CEO = Chief Extra Ordinary
COO = Chief Opportunism Officer
BOD = Board of Defenders
"
[NETBEANS] [EVALUATION] - Summary
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/ad68552a781457f4

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You could take eclipse, but:

"In essence, IBM [OTI] rules at free will and applies censorship
(against "terms-of-use", "privacy policy" and "community-veto"): "

[ECLIPSE] [EVALUATION] - Summary
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/b34bdd9eac4ff26b

-

So, you could take JetBrains IntelliJ IDEA, But:

"no comment" [as most of the people from JetBrains. Lack of courage or
just Activity Traps, or personal deficits, or scared about what happened
on NetBeans & Eclipse? don't know. For me, they are just irrelevant.]

[INTELLIJ_IDEA] [EVALUATION] - Summary
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/bbab0ec53635f04c

[the founders of IDEA worka @togethersoft (aquired by Borland)]

-

So, you could take Borland JBuilder:

http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_jbuilder.html

[Note: JBuilder has (in contrast to the NetBeans and Eclipse "Open
Source" IDE's) full public newsgroups, which are feeded to usenet

The weak personalities at Sun Microsystems and Eclipse (IBM & Co.) which
abuse any meaning of "Open Source" [supported by having Board seats
within the OSI !!!] could learn a lesson from this.]

After my experiences, I would most possibly take Borland JBuilder.

but:

Finally the problem are not the IDE's and the vendors.

-

The problem is the overall JAVA Community, which is full of weak
personalities without a sense for essential gentleness and most
important: without liberal qualities.

Only a few persons have acted against censorship.

_NO_ _ONE_ has _fighted_ (e.g. _demanding_ from censors to reenable my
access) for my right to express freely my fully in-topic criticism.

This is true for some amateurish online-communities like "javalobby.org"
and "theserverside.com", too.

Just ridiculous!

-

I have lost excessive amounts of time due to this evaluation.

Basicly my financial situation does not allow me to take the next step:

Dropping this terrible egoism-driven low evolutive language system "JAVA".

-

I hope to find the language and the community which is capable to detect:

Beating JAVA and its arrogant non-liberal communities depends on just
one thing:

High Evolutive Systems (Community / Development / Products).

Systems which practice "Design by Egoism" (JAVA&CO) will not be able to
keep up after just _one_ year.

-

http://lazaridis.com/case/index.html

-
-
-

I forgot one thing:

One of the most ridiculous happenings during my JAVA Evaluation was this
one:

[HIBERNATE] [EVALUATION] - Gavin King Censors Hibernate Forum
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/5c56e6092610fdd6

Would I trust my data to a system produced by a person like "Gavin King"
(JBoss, Hibernate Lead Developer)?

Of course: never!

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Edwin Martin

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Feb 1, 2005, 6:07:56 AM2/1/05
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Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
> [...]

>
> I forgot one thing:
>
> One of the most ridiculous happenings during my JAVA Evaluation was this
> one:
>
> [HIBERNATE] [EVALUATION] - Gavin King Censors Hibernate Forum
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/5c56e6092610fdd6
>
>
> Would I trust my data to a system produced by a person like "Gavin King"
> (JBoss, Hibernate Lead Developer)?
>
> Of course: never!

I looked at the thread and:

1) I didn't see any posting by Gavin King
2) I didn't see any censorship (please make clear what is censored)
3) I only see someone nagging he wants access to the fora with his
e-mail client instead of his web browser and when asked to volunteer he
answers "no need".

Edwin Martin

--
http://www.bitstorm.org/edwin/en/

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 6:25:41 AM2/1/05
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Edwin Martin wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> I forgot one thing:
>>
>> One of the most ridiculous happenings during my JAVA Evaluation was
>> this one:
>>
>> [HIBERNATE] [EVALUATION] - Gavin King Censors Hibernate Forum
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/5c56e6092610fdd6
>>
>>
>> Would I trust my data to a system produced by a person like "Gavin
>> King" (JBoss, Hibernate Lead Developer)?
>>
>> Of course: never!
>
> I looked at the thread and:
>
> 1) I didn't see any posting by Gavin King

"
See how simple Mr. Gavin King (JBoss) removes a granted right (to post
on the devel forum):

[Hibernate] FYI
http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net/m...
"

> 2) I didn't see any censorship (please make clear what is censored)

I (or my writings).

> 3) I only see someone nagging he wants access to the fora with his
> e-mail client instead of his web browser and when asked to volunteer he
> answers "no need".

Typical JAVA community member.

Sees what he likes to see.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Roland

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Feb 1, 2005, 6:27:29 AM2/1/05
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On 1-2-2005 11:32, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>
> I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>
> Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized unbelievable
> things.
>
> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>
> Let me know if you know one.
>

[snip]
>
Since your company has developed a process for reviewing internet-based
business-systems, I reckon you will find time and resources to search a
language and community meeting your requirements.

Let us know when you find one.
--
Regards,

Roland de Ruiter
___ ___
/__/ w_/ /__/
/ \ /_/ / \

Ryan Stewart

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Feb 1, 2005, 7:37:59 AM2/1/05
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"Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
news:ctnlsq$47k$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...

>
> I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>
> Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized unbelievable
> things.
>
> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>
> Let me know if you know one.
>
[...]
If you approached all of your "evaluations" in this way, which seems likely,
it's not surprising that you're dissatisfied.


Stefan Schulz

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Feb 1, 2005, 7:38:25 AM2/1/05
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:32:57 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

>
> I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>
> Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized unbelievable
> things.
>
> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>
> Let me know if you know one.

<sarcasm>Well, i'm sure the .NET camp will be very happy to take you in.
Have fun, don't let the door hit you on the way out.</sarcasm>

Honestly, what did you expect? Pestering productive people about how they
should be doing their jobs does not usually make you many friends.

Also, i fail to see how the community makes the language bad, or vice
versa. If you don't like us (sad, but we'll get over it, eventually),
build one more to your tastes. Just don't demand that another community
suddenly becomes just what you wanted (as opposed what they want to be)

This ends the feeding for this year. ;)

See you
Stefan

--
In pioneer days they used oxen for heavy pulling, and when one ox
couldn't budge a log, they didn't try to grow a larger ox. We shouldn't
be trying for bigger computers, but for more systems of computers.
--- Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

AnonC

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Feb 1, 2005, 11:48:14 AM2/1/05
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"Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
news:ctnlsq$47k$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>
> I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>

I thought your long term project was to evaluate every other Java related
project, criticize the way they operate, nag a little, and move on to the
next project.
So are you saying that you are done with Java now? Oh we are so sad that you
will not be evaluating Java anymore. That is a real loss to the whole
community. It's a sad day indeed!


> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>
> Let me know if you know one.
>

Have you taken a look at the anal retentive perfectionist community. They
would love to have you over there.


AnonC.


Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 12:22:36 PM2/1/05
to
Roland wrote:
> On 1-2-2005 11:32, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>>
>> I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>>
>> Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized
>> unbelievable things.
>>
>> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>>
>> Let me know if you know one.
>>
> [snip]
>
>>
> Since your company has developed a process for reviewing internet-based
> business-systems, I reckon you will find time and resources to search a
> language and community meeting your requirements.

The way to go.

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html#requirements

> Let us know when you find one.

of course.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 12:24:23 PM2/1/05
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The evaluation target was the liberal qualities of the surrounding
systems (community, projects etc.), not the products themselves.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 12:26:49 PM2/1/05
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Stefan Schulz wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:32:57 +0200, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>
>
>>I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>>
>>Searching for an IDE and for a technology stack, i realized unbelievable
>>things.
>>
>>I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>>
>>Let me know if you know one.
>
>
> <sarcasm>Well, i'm sure the .NET camp will be very happy to take you in.
> Have fun, don't let the door hit you on the way out.</sarcasm>

http://lazaridis.com/case/stack/index.html#requirements

> Honestly, what did you expect? Pestering productive people about how they
> should be doing their jobs does not usually make you many friends.

Friends are irrelevant.

Efficient Professionals Are Relevant.

> Also, i fail to see how the community makes the language bad, or vice
> versa. If you don't like us (sad, but we'll get over it, eventually),
> build one more to your tastes. Just don't demand that another community
> suddenly becomes just what you wanted (as opposed what they want to be)

I'm sure there is one community out there which will realize immediatly
the benefits of an high-evolutive system.

> This ends the feeding for this year. ;)
>
> See you
> Stefan
>


--
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 12:36:09 PM2/1/05
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AnonC wrote:
> "Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote in message
> news:ctnlsq$47k$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
>
>>I've selected JAVA for some long-term projects.
>
> I thought your long term project was to evaluate every other Java related
> project, criticize the way they operate, nag a little, and move on to the
> next project.

I can interpolate.

The Java Failure is everywhere.

> So are you saying that you are done with Java now? Oh we are so sad that you
> will not be evaluating Java anymore. That is a real loss to the whole
> community. It's a sad day indeed!

Of course It's a sad day.

Censorship (NetBeans, Eclipse) has forced me to move.

No platform is _really_ open, thus I cannot build on them:

http://lazaridis.com/core/project/open.html

>>I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>>
>>Let me know if you know one.
>
> Have you taken a look at the anal retentive perfectionist community. They
> would love to have you over there.

"the anal retentive perfectionist community"

One should ask Mr. Anal Aviator:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.softwaretools/msg/f4bd08996d931c47

> AnonC.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Alan Moore

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Feb 1, 2005, 2:01:56 PM2/1/05
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So... does this mean you're leaving?

Ishmael Rufus

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Feb 1, 2005, 6:04:37 PM2/1/05
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I think you just had a bad experience that can easily be encountered
on many other programming platforms.

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 10:25:36 PM2/1/05
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Alan Moore wrote:
> So... does this mean you're leaving?

yes, for now.

but:

I'll be back.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 1, 2005, 11:17:45 PM2/1/05
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Ishmael Rufus wrote:
> I think you just had a bad experience that can easily be encountered
> on many other programming platforms.

I don't think that _any_ other programming platform has such terrible
liberal and evolution qualities.

Sun Microsystems and IBM&Co., do an excellent job in strenghten
competitive (non JAVA) platforms.

I'm just wondering that Oracle did not take an advantage out of those
two "giant ego's".

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Roland

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Feb 2, 2005, 5:21:50 AM2/2/05
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> ..
>
I think your assumptions and ideas are biased by your personal merits.

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 2, 2005, 10:20:41 AM2/2/05
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Roland wrote:
> On 2-2-2005 5:17, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
>> Ishmael Rufus wrote:
>>
>>> I think you just had a bad experience that can easily be encountered
>>> on many other programming platforms.
>>
>> I don't think that _any_ other programming platform has such terrible
>> liberal and evolution qualities.
>>
>> Sun Microsystems and IBM&Co., do an excellent job in strenghten
>> competitive (non JAVA) platforms.
>>
>> I'm just wondering that Oracle did not take an advantage out of those
>> two "giant ego's".
>>
> I think your assumptions and ideas are biased by your personal merits.

I think it's not.

-

Rephrased:

A cooperation between Sun Microsystems and IBM&Co. in conjunction with
liberal & high evolutive communities would result in an nearly
unbeatable programming platform.

My evaluation has shown: this is a non achievable goal, as stubborness
and egoism rules - instead of reason and cooperation.

Thus I leave all those ridiculous folks behind, which will continue to
do an excellent job in keeping the very promising JAVA platform far
below the technological level it could be.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

Scott Ellsworth

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Feb 2, 2005, 5:00:54 PM2/2/05
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In article <ctnlsq$47k$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>,
Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:

> I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.

Try Perl. There is more than one way to do things there, so perhaps
your own unique requirements can be met by that community.

Does this mean you are finished with this one now?

Scott

Ilias Lazaridis

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Feb 2, 2005, 11:16:47 PM2/2/05
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Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> In article <ctnlsq$47k$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>,
> Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I hope I will find quickly a language and a community which I can trust.
>
> Try Perl. There is more than one way to do things there, so perhaps
> your own unique requirements can be met by that community.

ok

> Does this mean you are finished with this one now?

yes.

"
A cooperation between Sun Microsystems and IBM&Co. in conjunction with
liberal & high evolutive communities would result in an nearly
unbeatable programming platform.

My evaluation has shown: this is a non achievable goal, as stubborness
and egoism rules - instead of reason and cooperation.

Thus I leave all those ridiculous folks behind, which will continue to
do an excellent job in keeping the very promising JAVA platform far
below the technological level it could be.
"

source: may answer to "Roland" within this thread

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

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