There is an interesting article about programmer:
The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
Cheers,
Andang
COOOL! (I wish cool was spelled with a $)
Thanks for the URL!
Rich
Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote in article
<33CB0D...@nmt.edu>...
Obviously this is some sort of average over the course of a week or a
month. A little misleading; otherwise, I think the article was very
encouraging for us programmer-types.
In article <33CB0D...@nmt.edu>, Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> writes:
|> Hi all,
|>
|> There is an interesting article about programmer:
|> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
|> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
|> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
|>
It's utter nonsense. There's no shortage of programmers. There is
a shortage of programmers specialized in the exact set of skills
for the particular positions that are open, but that's because
nobody want's to train anyone, not because there's a programmer
shortage.
It's just propaganda so the Dept of whatever will loosen up
on those work permits.
(Disclaimer: I have nothing against the work permitees, but
I think their employers are exploitative and are a rather despicable lot.
The work permitees have my sympathy. )
Joe Seigh
: It's just propaganda so the Dept of whatever will loosen up
: on those work permits.
i think you a dead on. six figure programmers - i've heard of them, in
fact i think i know one personally. <G> as with any other field of highly
skilled labor, there is a distribution of wages. in the silicon valley,
the average range in salary (not counting stock options etc...) is 30-80K
DOE and other stuff. those people pulling in big time dollars have a
specialized skill set, usually at least one advanced degree in the
sciences, great communication skills and project management skills. and i
assure you there is a drought of programmers with years of exp, advanced
degrees, knowledge of arcane software, great communications and project
management skills. unfortunately for the greedy employers, opeing up the
work permits won't likely meet the need.
IMHO, i am all for openness of work permits. capital is free to go
wherever the f**k it wants, why not labor?
steve doliov
Bobby Holland
Rich wrote:
>
> I think the word that best describes this situation is:
>
> COOOL! (I wish cool was spelled with a $)
>
> Thanks for the URL!
>
> Rich
>
> Andang Kustamsi <and...@nmt.edu> wrote in article
> <33CB0D...@nmt.edu>...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andang
> >
Joe, I suspect you are correct. The article makes this curious
observation:
"And no other plentiful source of software skills appears to be on the
horizon. Russia has promise, but it's limited: Few of it's programmers
speak English or understand business applications."
In other words "We want left-handed shortstops with a blue eye and a
green eye. Period." I suspect they don't want programmers, they want
disposable automatons.
Just my jaded view.
David Best
> There is an interesting article about programmer:
> The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
Yep, there is such a huge drought, that they still pay newly minted MBA's two
to three times what an experienced programmer gets.
This is typical business propaganda. If they can show that a 'shortage' exists,
they can import cheap programmers into the U.S. Unfortunately, it always works,
much to the detriment of programmer's pay.
Me too !
Shit, I'm not on AOL.
Thanks for the URL,
maybe I should emmigrate from Europe to the US ?
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There is an interesting article about programmer:
> > The Great Programmer Drought, a critical shortage of software talent has
> > prompted a worldwide labor hunt...
> > http://www.businessweek.com/1997/29/b3536106.htm
> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------
freelance software engineer
ing. Pascal Dutilleul
Pascal.D...@ping.be Borland Connections Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bullshit.
It's not possible to "import cheap programmers".
In petition employer have to show that salary of prospective
programmer will be average or more for position specified
in geographical area (state). Otherwise work permit isnt given.
This is basic requirement.
I know a lot of "imported" programmers and I assure you
NONE of them gets less than average and vast majority
gets not less than fresh minted MBA.
---
Const. Okrainets
[snip]
>Joe, I suspect you are correct. The article makes this curious
>observation:
>
> "And no other plentiful source of software skills appears to be on the
>horizon. Russia has promise, but it's limited: Few of it's programmers
>speak English or understand business applications."
>
>In other words "We want left-handed shortstops with a blue eye and a
>green eye. Period." I suspect they don't want programmers, they want
>disposable automatons.
No...it says that we want programmers that can hopefully read the
original specs (not a translated version) and know the problem domain.
Nothing horrible about that.
The few russian programmers I met seemed competent and knew their
particular problem domain (not business s/w). However, throw in the
costs of buying them all equipment, paying translators and flying to
Moscow for technical meetings and the cost benefit gets eaten away
pretty fast.
Just ask Boeing.
>Just my jaded view.
>
>David Best
Nigel
PS Good translators are hard to find for technical specs. It takes a
couple of extra passes to find all the slightly mis-translated
technical terms.
My father does this sort of work and it isn't pretty when the jargon
gets thick. In fact he doesn't do this sort of work anymore because
translating American computer jargon (which is hardly english to begin
with) into Chinese computer jargon is more hassle than even the high
rates that a translator can command is worth to him. You really need
some domain knowledge to do a good job. At 74 he's not about to go
out and get a CS degree.
Want to make money fast? :) Be a Chinese or Russian translator with a
legal degree. Translating multi-billion yuan/ruble/dollar contracts
can be very lucrative. So is being the hired gun when inevitable
contract disputes arise.
Get this. We're looking for a junior level Java guy. This 20 something,
currently making $75, 2 1/2 years of programming games asked us for $100k.
He won't get it, but the fact that he asked was just bizarre. Headhunter
told him to go for it.
Jeff Harrington [ "Art does not make peace...that is not its business...]
je...@parnasse.com [ Art is peace." --Robert Lowell]
http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ My Music ]]<<--------------]
http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ My Worlds ]]<<-------------]
I'm James R. Drought, and yes, I'm a great programmer! :)
Could not resist!
Jon.
Sweden also has a great programmer shortage. Wages here too seem to be
much lower than in the US (and other European countries). The
companies that pay the lowest wages are the biggest ones, while at the
same time they are complaining about competent people leaving the
country. Go figure...
/| ) Anders Bornholm | E-mail: d95...@nada.kth.se
/_|_) Computer Science KTH | http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d95-abo
In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
''shortage'' of programmers.
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD -
* "People who send spam to Emperor Cartagia... vanish! _They say_ that
* there's a room where he has their heads, lined up in a row on a desk...
* _They say_ that late at night, he goes there, and talks to them... _they
*- say_ he asks them, 'Now tell me again, how _do_ you make money fast?'"
Don't you see??? If there weren't imported programmers the salary would
be higher still.
--
The Netherlands is not a market economy - all programmers work for
Philips. :)
--
Nick Wagg (mailto:ni...@lsl.co.uk) Laser-Scan Ltd,
Senior Software Engineer Science Park, Milton Rd,
Tel: +44(0)1223 420414 (ext 213) Cambridge, CB4 4FY, UK.
Fax: +44(0)1223 420044 http://www.lsl.co.uk/
: The Netherlands is not a market economy - all programmers work for
: Philips. :)
And the smart programmers are leaving the Netherlands ... ;)
Marcel
--bks
>In a market economy this is prima facie evidence that there is NOT a
>''shortage'' of programmers.
>
I'm afraid you have a rather simplified idea of what a 'market
economy' is. Although most countries have laws against monopolies,
kartels and such, it's hard to keep an industry from following a
similar policy. In a market economy even more so.
A few years back there was also a programmers drought, leading to ever
increasing wages for programmers. Then in 1991 there was a sudden
collapse of the (programmers) market and a lot of companies went broke
or didn't know how fast they could lay off idle programmers that were
costing them so much. This has instilled a reluctancy this time to bid
ever higher salaries.
There's an interesting game (if that's what to call it) that has an
analogy to this situation. Say I offer a dollar for auction. You can
start bidding as low as you like. The only rule is that I get what you
bid for it, but also the person who made the second highest bid has to
pay me his bid.
For those who don't see the analogy, the dollar is the programmers
skills, the highest bid his salary, the second highest bid the
experience/education he got from his previous employer.
Try this on an unwary group of people, and you get a bidding spiral to
amounts that don't seem to make any sense. Way more than a dollar. The
problem is the loss of the second highest bidder. He can choose to
accept his (substantial) loss, or bid just a little bit more and at
least win the bidding contest as compensation. Continuing bidding
always seems more attractive.
Try this on a group for the second time, then everyone will be very
wary to make any bid at all. In the end, someone will bid a little bit
less than a dollar, but not so much less as to tempt someone to try to
put a bid in between his bid and a dollar.
Perception is reality.
> A few years back there was also a programmers drought, leading to ever
> increasing wages for programmers. Then in 1991 there was a sudden
> collapse of the (programmers) market and a lot of companies went broke
> or didn't know how fast they could lay off idle programmers that were
> costing them so much. This has instilled a reluctancy this time to bid
> ever higher salaries.
That's why so many companies are going to contractors. You can bring
them in for specific tasks and then get them out without having to worry
about severence, etc.. Of course, once a big company gets a contractor
they like, they are very reluctant to let them go. I've seen contractors
stay at a site for almost 10 years. This is brainless, because the
company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
an employee would in that situation. You're left with the situation
where the company is paying higher wages in an effort to keep wages
down!
<Rather amusing game snipped>
________________________
Eric Buckley
Comsys Millenium Services
eMail: remove NoSpam from above
Standard disclaimer - I speak for myself and nobody else.
If the contracter was that good, he or she would refuse the offer
(which would almost surely be a large pay cut).
--
Ken Lee, ken...@rahul.net, http://www.rahul.net/kenton/
But that's exactly my point. Suppose you have a contractor who's working
through an agency. The agency bills $95/hr and the contractor gets $60
(W2). Now the contractor has to pick up benefits, that's probably around
$7K-$10K depending on their family situation. At 2000 hrs/year that
gives, conservatively, $110K per year. But the company paid $190K. That
company could hire the contractor at $130K, give them benefits and still
be up $50K. You can plug in your own numbers based on skill set and
experience, but it comes out the same way each time.
Companies claim that this doesn't account for management overhead and
the like, but this is crazy. I manage contractors and regular employees.
The contractors require every bit as much attention. Companies also have
the rather annoying habit of overrating their benefits. I had one
company tell me that their benefits were worth $30K. I asked how they
figured that and found they were counting vacation time. But the pay for
vacation is already in your base! You don't get a bonus for skipping out
for two weeks. Most salaried people work well over 2000 hours per year.
The real (unstated) problem is that companies just can't bring
themselves to pay $130K for a programmer. The fact that they are already
paying close to $200K is somehow lost on them.
> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:35:20 GMT, tes...@xs4all.nl (Mark Boon) wrote:
> >In The Netherlands there's currently a great shortage of programmers
> >as well. Paradoxically however, even though the wages seem to be much
> >lower than in the U.S., they seem to remain more or less constant. The
> >average is even dropping a bit, though that seems to be caused by the
> >increasingly younger age at which programmers get recruited.
>
> Sweden also has a great programmer shortage. Wages here too seem to be
> much lower than in the US (and other European countries). The
> companies that pay the lowest wages are the biggest ones, while at the
> same time they are complaining about competent people leaving the
> country. Go figure...
>
>
> /| ) Anders Bornholm | E-mail: d95...@nada.kth.se
> /_|_) Computer Science KTH | http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d95-abo
>
>
So please tell me what the wages for programmers are in Europe.
Thanks for your time.
Kev mcc...@sage.edu
: That's why so many companies are going to contractors. You can bring
: them in for specific tasks and then get them out without having to worry
: about severence, etc.. Of course, once a big company gets a contractor
: they like, they are very reluctant to let them go. I've seen contractors
: stay at a site for almost 10 years. This is brainless, because the
: company could just hire the contractor, but then they would screw up
: their compensation plan because the contractor is making a lot more than
: an employee would in that situation. You're left with the situation
: where the company is paying higher wages in an effort to keep wages
: down!
First of all, contractors generally make less than a full-time employee
would, doing the same job. If they weren't cheaper, then companies
wouldn't hire them at all.
Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
contractors for short-term work.
Kev.
--
Kevin Swan BCSH
My university broke my email. If you want to email me, please send it to
013...@dragon.acadiau.ca Acadia University
How's my posting? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
** Fatal Error [1]: 'Win95' virus detected on /dev/hda1; Formatting ...
This may be true of certain areas or certain fields. In others,
contractors can make 150% to 300% of an average employee's hourly rate
(e.g., an employee makes $40/hour and a contractor makes $100/hour).
Employers pay these rates because:
1. the contractors have skills that employees don't (including potential
new hires)
2. thus, the contractors don't need training and can contribute immediately
3. since contractors have usually done similar (or exactly the same) project
before, they are less likely to make mistakes
4. contractors can be hired for short term projects (e.g., a few weeks or
a few months) while employees are still on their learning curve
5. lots of other reasons dealing with taxes, accounting, company policies, etc.
I have never known ANY of these statements to be true.
1) I have never worked anywhere that the contractors were not being paid
at LEAST 25-50% more than the employees (usuall more like 100-150%)
2) Many companies use more contractors than employees.
3) Most companies will not hesitate to bring on a short-term contractor
simply because they are short-term. That is one benefit of hiring
consultants.
Where are you from??? As a contractor, I want to be sure to steer clear
of
where ever it is.
I've been working in this field for 20 years. I've never ever met a
programmer who belongs to a union. That doesn't mean that they don't
exist, but it seriously damages your argument.
______________________________________________________________________
Charles E. Matthews
Software consulting in knowledge
Synergistic Technologies based systems and object oriented
chu...@infonet.isl.net analysis and design
>Perception is reality.
That has to be one of the most concisely true statements
I've read in this newsgroup.
Dan
--
Daniel A. Kirkdorffer
Internet Consultant, Zeal Inc.
dk...@srds.com http://www.zealinc.com/
DanK...@aol.com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/
**Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm
Wrong! Try $50 to $70 an hour! For some industries. Going at
least to the contractor if not to the temp employee. When the company
makes a job offer to a _good_ temp working for a contractor, the offer
most often looks ridiculous to the temp (young, healthy, wants big
bucks NOW).
>Secondly, whenever a company brings in cheap labour such as contractors,
>they usually face A LOT of pressure from its union and employees.
Union? What union?
>It is for these reasons that companies are shy about bringing in
>contractors for short-term work.
Your above statements are _not_ true, IME, in the U.S.
_____________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White -- An embedded systems software engineer
Every programmer has a union -- their feet.
--
Boyd Roberts <bo...@france3.fr> N 31 447109 5411310
``Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad.'' -- rob
The difference is in the benefits. A contractor earning $50/hour also has
to purchase his own medical insurance, perhaps pay for his own equipment,
doesn't get pension benefits, etc. His job security is lower -- he's
essentially job hunting every few months when the contracts run out.
However, companies often hire contractors even though the actual cost is
higher than a regular employee, because they can account for them
differently. The cost of a regular employee is considered to be a
permanent cost -- reducing headcount is difficult. Contractors are a
temporary cost -- when the contract runs out, the company can choose note
to renew.
--
Barry Margolin, bar...@bbnplanet.com
BBN Corporation, Cambridge, MA
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