[arguably OT] Keyboards
Tom Anderson
In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?
(I argue that this is on topic, because this group is about java
programming, and one does not get very far in java programming without a
keyboard.)
The trouble with reviews i read online is that they're often written from
the point of view of "ZOMG it has fifteen special function keys and a
volume dial and an LCD!!!!", which is of absolutely no value to the
working programmer. I deal with at least three different computers (local,
virtual, and remote) and dozens of apps and tools through that keyboard
every day, all of which already have their own key bindings, and most of
which have no interest in custom keys or LCDs, so those things are no use
to me, but i do spend all bloody day typing (well, on average half of the
day, given that we pair-program), so what i do care about is a keyboard
that makes typing comfortable, accurate, and fast (we have some keyboards
where the case is far too high beneath the space bar, so you can't type a
space with your thumb - how did these ever get built?), and if possible is
resistant to biscuit crumbs (today's keyboard has a crumb under the Z key,
which encourages accurate editing, because it makes it a challenge to undo
things).
What i want is a keyboard designed according to the old-school unix
philosophy - it should concentrate on being a keyboard, and nothing else.
A keyboard designed for programmers. That doesn't mean bells and whistles;
does a saw designed for professional carpenters have lots of bells and
whistles? No, it's just bloody good at sawing.
Personally, i really like Apple's desktop keyboards - nice low-travel keys
with a sturdy feel, and good build quality. However, their key layout is
weird, so if we plugged them into our linux boxes, we'd either have to use
a Mac keyboard and have the keys in weird places, or use a standard keymap
and have some keys not emit the symbol printed on them. Neither sounds
good. Also, not everyone in the office likes low-travel keyboards.
So anyway, rant and ramble (rantble?) over, recommendations welcome.
tom
--
The world belongs to the mathematics and engineering. The world is as
it is. -- Luis Filipe Silva vs Babelfish
Jim
I've been using the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 (it is wired).
Reviews aside, the keyboard is just comfortable. The only nick I'd
give it is they added an "F Lock" key that locks out the function
keys. Every once in a while I hit it and then things just don't work
well. Volume controls are nice. Anyway my $0.02US
http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043
Jim
Lew
> Unless waterproof, this would cost me $359 per month, but
> should make an impression:
>
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg
I used this keyboard on a job for over four years. It fixed my
repetitive-motion pain, but I hated the tiny function keys.
Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg>
for a couple of years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but it
was fragile as heck. The cable to the PC kinked, the keys fell off, and my
wife and friends found it frightening. But it's not as wide as most
keyboards, thus it fit beautifully on my narrow keyboard shelf, and the
ergonomics of it are everything they claim.
But the fragility made it infeasible to replace.
So now I use a Microsoft Wireless Comfort Keyboard 1.0A. I've worn the
letters off several of the keys, it's grimy from a few years of use, but the
key layout is comfortable (it has the long "Delete" key below "Home" with the
"Home"/"End"/"PageUp"/"PageDown" suite in a vertical arrangement, and the
arrows in a low inverted-T) and just won't quit.
My hands pronate some, but it's not causing injury like some cheap keyboards
would.
If Maltron made a durable, wireless USB version it'd be ideal.
The Microsoft is so much less expensive, though. I use the Microsoft wireless
mouse that came with it, and I find it perfect. In the end, Microsoft wins.
--
Lew
Lew
Lew wrote:
> Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
> <http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-etype-intro.html>
--
Lew
Peter Duniho
> Evening all,
>
> In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
> them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations
> for keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to
> tell them to me?
Sure! I'm up for off-topic tonight. :) Besides, I'm looking forward
to seeing how Roedy works a plug in for his web site on this one. :)
> [...]
> What i want is a keyboard designed according to the old-school unix
> philosophy - it should concentrate on being a keyboard, and nothing
> else. A keyboard designed for programmers. That doesn't mean bells and
> whistles; does a saw designed for professional carpenters have lots of
> bells and whistles? No, it's just bloody good at sawing.
>
> Personally, i really like Apple's desktop keyboards - nice low-travel
> keys with a sturdy feel, and good build quality. However, their key
> layout is weird, so if we plugged them into our linux boxes, we'd either
> have to use a Mac keyboard and have the keys in weird places, or use a
> standard keymap and have some keys not emit the symbol printed on them.
> Neither sounds good. Also, not everyone in the office likes low-travel
> keyboards.
>
> So anyway, rant and ramble (rantble?) over, recommendations welcome.
I so much liked the Microsoft Wireless Laser 7000 keyboard that I got
for my living room setup that I bought another one to use at work.
I love the feel of the keyboard. In part, this may be because my
fingers have so much time on my laptop that they are used to the
slightly smaller form factor, and the Wireless Laser 7000 is itself on
the smaller side (only the merest bit smaller than a full-sized desktop
keyboard, but not at all clunky like some I've used…I'm surprised to
find that the word "svelte" actually seems to apply :) ).
One caveat: the Wireless Laser 7000 desktop keyboard comes with a
wireless mouse that is wonderful, except for the poorly designed battery
receptacle. The first one I got worked fine, but the next two (I bought
one on its own to replace a wired mouse that was falling apart, and then
I got another with the second Wireless Laser 7000 keyboard I bought)
kept having trouble getting charged correctly.
There are various message topics and articles on the Internet about the
problem. You either need to pad the side of the battery, or adjust the
positive terminal connection, or both, to get things to work correctly.
It's very finicky, but once you get it set up right it works fine.
And the mouse is really nice.
It's something like $70 for the keyboard/mouse combo on Amazon right
now, which I think is a pretty good deal for what you get.
Another caveat: the keyboard isn't "over-the-top" on extras, but it
definitely suffers a little from the "special key" syndrome. If you are
looking for _really_ bare bones, this isn't the keyboard for you.
Yet another caveat: the function keys are not full-sized keys. They are
more like buttons about half the size of a normal key. I spend a lot of
time with the function keys as I step through code in the debugger, and
it seems fine to me. But no doubt some people will hate them. Me, I
love the keyboard too much to hate it for the function keys. Nobody's
perfect! :)
Pete
Kevin McMurtrie
but some makers have put them in full-sized desktop keyboards because of
their exceptional longevity and nice feel.
Typical keyboards having plastic pistons wear rapidly when keys aren't
struck straight down. They don't hold up well to software development
that makes heavy use of the meta, underscore, and symbol keys at the
edges of the keyboard.
--
I won't see Google Groups replies because I must filter them as spam
Break Point
I use an apple desktop keyboard for coding (though I do work on macs),
best keyboard I've used so far. I use it for windows (through VMWare)
and don't really have too much trouble with the key placements, but then
I'm used to it now.
>
> So anyway, rant and ramble (rantble?) over, recommendations welcome.
>
> tom
>
I used to use an old Compaq keyboard for my PC (sorry can't remember the
model, but a quick google images search found a picture of it here
http://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/compaq_unkn.jpg). Wasn't very
flashy at all but it had nice key placement and a nice feel to the key
presses.
---
BP 00
---
Wojtek
I am using a 20 year old keyboard. It has a DIN plug with a DIN->PS/2
converter. I love this keyboard because it has function keys at the top
AND down the left side. It also does NOT have "Windows" keys. The space
bar is nice and wide for my thick thumbs.
There is a full size cursor key layout (not in the inverted T style),
and a built-in calculator with LCD screen, now broken.
The only name I can find on it is "5001"
I love this keyboard. It has a solid feel to it. I have taken it apart
a few times to clean out the contacts.
I have tried to so searches for left side function keys, but alas, I
have failed to find one.
Well there is the Optimus Maximus keyboard:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ but it is just out of my
price range :-)
It would be cool though. Switch to Debug mode in your IDE and have the
key-caps change to debug commands...
--
Wojtek :-)
RedGrittyBrick
>
> In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
> them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations
> for keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to
> tell them to me?
1) http://bit.ly/cT701e
2) http://bit.ly/9EdqWU
--
RGB
Break Point
I'll have an interesting sleep tonight...
Nightmares of the click of each key on the 20 year old one.
Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.
---
BP 00
---
sh...@doesnt.need.more.spam
> Stefan Ram wrote:
>>
>> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg
>
> I used this keyboard on a job for over four years. It fixed my
> repetitive-motion pain, but I hated the tiny function keys.
Ditto, It's a great keyboard, but Kinesis really messed up with the
'impossible not to fat-finger' function keys. All they'd have to do is
relocate the 'keypad' and 'program' keys, then they'd have enough room
for real function keys...
> Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
> <http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-etype-intro.html>
> for a couple of years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but
> it was fragile as heck.
Ugh... I was thinking of this as a next purchase.
> So now I use a Microsoft Wireless Comfort Keyboard 1.0A. ...
> My hands pronate some, but it's not causing injury like some cheap
> keyboards would.
Hmm... I've always been scared to migrate back to a non-split design.
Perhaps I'll give it a try.
Shane
Lew
>> Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
>> <http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-etype-intro.html> for a couple of
>> years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but it was
>> fragile as heck.
sh...@doesnt.need.more.spam wrote:
> Ugh... I was thinking of this as a next purchase.
Well, the version I bought was not from Maltron, but from
<http://www.ergo-comp.com/>
Perhaps the Maltron, at nearly $900 U.S., is more durable but I'll never find
out at that price.
The key dropoffs were less a problem than you might suppose, since they snap
right back on.
The fragile wire was an issue, but maybe the "model changeover" mentioned on
their home page will fix that. Or maybe they're going out of business. Or
maybe they're switching away from Maltron. Or maybe they're doing something
completely unpredictable.
--
Lew
Lew
>> Well there is the Optimus Maximus keyboard:
>> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ but it is just out of my
>> price range :-)
>>
>> It would be cool though. Switch to Debug mode in your IDE and have the
>> key-caps change to debug commands...
Break Point wrote:
> I'll have an interesting sleep tonight...
>
> Nightmares of the click of each key on the 20 year old one.
>
> Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.
Ridiculously expensive, non-ergonomic, and unabashedly stupid. What need does
a touch typist have for a screen on every key?
--
Lew
Break Point
Not much need really, it's unashamedly bling.
Never been much of a fan of ergonomic keyboards, used to have a
Microsoft ergonomic curvy thing back in the day, never quite got used to
it and it took over half my desk.
I also think that plastic flappy wrist thingies attached to the bottom
of regular keyboards should be cast into room 101 :p
(http://techgage.com/reviews/logitech/illuminated_keyboard/logitech_eluminated_keyboard_01_thumb.jpg)
--
BP 00
--
Arved Sandstrom
keyboards and one wireless mouse. One complete set is for the new
Windows 7 Dell that I acquired in December, and it's basically because
my better half saw my Mac wireless keyboard and my Magic Mouse and she
insists on going wireless. :-) The other keyboard is for my tried and
true old Dell with Windows XP Pro - the keyboard is simply due to be
retired (rather annoyingly the Shift is having major issues).
I've never much liked the stock Dell keyboards, but they haven't been so
bad that I'd go out and buy a new one while the other still worked. But
now I need to bite the bullet. I like the recommendation above for the
Wireless Comfort KB and I think I'll get one so my gf can test-drive
it...then I'll borrow it for a bit. I don't need but a few hours to
figure out whether I like a KB or not.
What's somewhat ironic is that the Mac wireless keyboard I have is more
ergonomic by far - short-travel Chiclet keys and all - than any other
keyboard I use right now, home or work. Mainly because the profile is so
low. For the same reason the keyboard on my MacBook Pro is very
comfortable: short-travel keys and a natural area for both palms to rest
on. These observations are of course applicable to me only. But any PC
keyboard that offered similar features - non-flimsy feel, short-travel
keys, and suitable palm rests - would do the trick for me.
I won't be surprised if I end up with two MS Wireless Comfort keyboards
then. Since a wireless mouse is also involved I imagine I'll look at the
Optical Desktop Pro combo, or the Wireless Laser 6000 combo (I think
Peter mentioned something like this latter).
On the subject of mice, I could actually not care less about the
wireless aspect, although there are some minor conveniences involved
with that. What does have me badly spoiled is the Magic Mouse...I'll
never be happy with track balls or scroll wheels again. :-)
AHS
jebblue
> Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.
>
It only supports Windows and Mac, that makes it useless.
--
// This is my opinion.
Roedy Green
said :
>In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
>them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
>keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
>them to me?
see http://mindprod.com/bgloss/keyboard.html
I have written extensively on the subject.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
It�s amazing how much structure natural languages have when you consider who speaks them and how they evolved.
Roedy Green
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>Ditto, It's a great keyboard, but Kinesis really messed up with the
>'impossible not to fat-finger' function keys. All they'd have to do is
>relocate the 'keypad' and 'program' keys, then they'd have enough room
>for real function keys...
I wrote them recently about the keys. They have not changed them.
Apparently the older keyboards, such as mine, are on a lifetime
warranty.
Roedy Green
said :
>In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
>them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
>keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
>them to me?
Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
never use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right
hand rests.
Lew
> Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
> never use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right
> hand rests.
Now there's an assumption.
One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder, especially
for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left side. Removing the
numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will have no effect on where the
right hand rests whatsoever if people do that smart thing.
--
Lew
Lew
>> Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
>> never use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right
>> hand rests.
Lew wrote:
> Now there's an assumption.
>
> One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
> especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
> side. Removing the numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will
> have no effect on where the right hand rests whatsoever if people do
> that smart thing.
And while we're on the subject, on what statistical or evidentiary basis do
you conclude that someone "probably" doesn't use the numeric keypad?
I'm betting none whatsoever.
Many people, of whom I am one, use the numeric keypad quite extensively. It
is so much easier, and so less prone to induce pain, to use that then the row
of number keys above the alphabetic ones.
I do agree that if one is not one of those people then a keyboard without such
a keypad might be useful. That brings up the question of what, if any,
keyboards are available without that keypad. And what else they sacrificed,
e.g., other ergonomic factors, when they dropped it.
I recommend that one consider learning to use the numeric keypad than to
abandon it.
--
Lew
Martin Gregorie
> One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
> especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
> side.
>
Training yourself NOT to use the scroll wheel helps a lot too.
I got bad RSI from heavy use of the scroll wheel and now I'm weaning
myself off, the condition has almost vanished.
Using the mouse purely for shove'n click and doing all scrolling with the
other hand on arrow and PgUp/Dn keys drastically evens up the load
between my hands, but I admit that this probably works best for us left-
handers.
I wish it was still possible to find a 3-button mouse with no scroll-
wheel capability. Preferably optical, but I know that is asking for the
moon. OTOH, if I open up the mouse and carefully apply epoxy or Zap to
the mouse wheel's axle....
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
Zlatko Duric
> One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
> especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
> side.
Can you elaborate a bit that one? Why is that, what's the trick?
--
Zlatko
Christian
The mechanical clicking gives good confirmation when you hit the key and
in my impression is that it allows for higer typespeed with lower typo rate.
So currently I am using a Cherry G80-3000 and I am really happy with it.
Lew
>> One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
>> especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
>> side.
Zlatko Duric wrote:
> Can you elaborate a bit that one? Why is that, what's the trick?
Why: because keyboards already have too much for the right hand to do.
Putting the mouse on the left balances the load better.
What's the trick: I don't understand the question.
--
Lew
znôrt
> Putting the mouse on the left balances the load better.
..
> What's the trick: I don't understand the question.
trick: after putting the mouse on the left, remember to grab it with your left
hand! X'D
(failure to do so may cause injuries much worse than repetitive-motion
disorder)
Zlatko Duric
> Zlatko Duric wrote:
>> Can you elaborate a bit that one? Why is that, what's the trick?
>
> Why: because keyboards already have too much for the right hand to do.
> Putting the mouse on the left balances the load better.
>
> What's the trick: I don't understand the question.
>
What's the trick was just a repeated question number one, to elaborate.
I wanted to know why is it better to point and click with my left hand
(which I'm doing now, btw :) )
Thanks anyway
--
Zlatko
Tom Anderson
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 23:43:48 +0100, Tom Anderson
> <tw...@urchin.earth.li> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
> said :
>
>> In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to
>> replace them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any
>> recommendations for keyboards they really, really like, and if so,
>> would they care to tell them to me?
>
> Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably never
> use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right hand rests.
I don't use the numpad much, but i do use the keys in between the numpad
and the main block, and without a numpad, you don't get a proper version
of those. But yes, good point about the numpad not being that useful.
tom
--
Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do.
Lew
> I don't use the numpad much, but i [sic] do use the keys in between the numpad
> and the main block, and without a numpad, you don't get a proper version
> of those. But yes, good point about the numpad not being that useful.
Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
very useful.
--
Lew
Patricia Shanahan
This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with
my mother and my aunt. They were in total agreement that it was silly to
have both a numeric pad and a number row on the main keyboard - until I
asked them which should go.
My mother used her computer mainly for correspondence and writing essays
for classes she was taking. She had learned to touch type on a
mechanical typewriter.
My aunt had worked as a statistician starting soon after World War II,
as a part time book-keeper for the first few years of her retirement,
and still kept the books on a volunteer basis for her swimming and
bridge clubs. Dorothy had used electronic calculators from soon after
they became available until she switched to spreadsheets.
There are no prizes for guessing who absolutely insisted on keeping
which set of number keys.
Patricia
Thomas Pornin
> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
> very useful.
Or not.
On my workstation (some years ago), it took me two years before
noticing that my numpad was correctly configured (at that time, using
Linux on an Alpha, such things were not always working out of the box).
This means that I had programmed and typed text on that system for
two years, without even once touching the numpad. I daresay that the
numpad is very useless for me.
(This is not so true on my home PC, because the numpad is useful to
move units when playing Civilization.)
--Thomas Pornin
Tom Anderson
I guess utility is in the hand of the beholder. I don't use the numpad a
lot.
tom
--
YOUR MIND IS A NIGHTMARE THAT HAS BEEN EATING YOU: NOW EAT YOUR MIND. --
Kathy Acker, Empire of the Senseless
Tom Anderson
Maybe a keyboard should just come as a collection of 105 lego bricks with
keys on top, and a baseboard. Some kind of personal-area network could
collect the keypresses. Keys could use the energy of keystrokes to power
themselves. Everyone would be able to adjust their keyboard on a whim, and
everyone would have exactly the layout they wanted.
The only downside of this is that in my office, i can guarantee that i'd
come in one day and find that my home row had been replaced by a rank of
tiny spearmen.
Tom Anderson
Yes, this is the one use i have for the numpad - but i only play Civ on my
laptop, which doesn't have one!
Lew
> >> I don't use the numpad much, but i [sic] do use the keys in between the numpad
> >> and the main block, and without a numpad, you don't get a proper version
> >> of those. But yes, good point about the numpad not being that useful.
>
Lew wrote:
>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>> very useful.
>
Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with
> my mother and my aunt. They were in total agreement that it was silly to
> have both a numeric pad and a number row on the main keyboard - until I
> asked them which should go.
>
> My mother used her computer mainly for correspondence and writing essays
> for classes she was taking. She had learned to touch type on a
> mechanical typewriter.
>
> My aunt had worked as a statistician starting soon after World War II,
> as a part time book-keeper for the first few years of her retirement,
> and still kept the books on a volunteer basis for her swimming and
> bridge clubs. Dorothy had used electronic calculators from soon after
> they became available until she switched to spreadsheets.
>
> There are no prizes for guessing who absolutely insisted on keeping
> which set of number keys.
>
And that illustrates what my real point was.
It is silly to make pronouncements about "the numpad not being that
useful" since that depends on the user, so I intentionally was just as
silly claiming that it's "very, very useful". Obviously I was
speaking from my own point of view only, but in the absolute in order
to counteract the absolute claims being made about a subjective
matter. Anyone should have been able to recognize that.
--
Lew
Martin Gregorie
>
> I do not want to /think/ when typing. Using several computers with
> different keyboard layouts would make me think about the layout each
> time I use a keyboard. So I want the same layout on every computer I
> use. I even would prefer the same command key codes in different
> editors as far as possible.
>
I only have two suggestions here - vi and microEmacs.
Both are small, fast, portable, open source editors. I use vi as a fall-
back because all *nixen have it (so does Windows) and microEmacs from
choice. Its customisable and the customisations are also portable. So far
it has ported easily to any OS I've needed it on and always worked
exactly the same. However, since its a keyboard driven console editor
rather than having a graphical/mouse interface it may not suit everybody.
Lew
Why do you say "anyway"?
--
Lew
Arne Vajhøj
I suspect that the usefulness or non-usefulness depends a lot
on the person using the keyboard.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:13:44 +0100, Break Point wrote:
>> Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.
>
> It only supports Windows and Mac, that makes it useless.
For those 1-2% not using Windows or MacOS X.
Arne
Zlatko Duric
>> What's the trick was just a repeated question number one, to
>> elaborate. I wanted to know why is it better to point and click with
>> my left hand (which I'm doing now, btw :) )
>>
>> Thanks anyway
>
> Why do you say "anyway"?
I didn't say "anyway". I just wrote it. Thanking you for the
explanation. The word "anyway" just got in there, without real need or
sense or meaning, as is this post.
--
Zlatko
Lew
My point exactly, as explained upthread.
--
Lew
Roedy Green
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
> Removing the
>numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will have no effect on where the
>right hand rests whatsoever if people do that smart thing.
I don't have a numeric keypad on my Kinesis (there is an embedded
one). My right hand rests with the right pinky just north west of the
right shift key. The mouse sits immediately to the right.
With a conventional keyboard, the mouse would be several inches to the
right because the keypad would intervene.
see http://mindprod.com/bgloss/kinesis.html
for a picture of the layout which should make this clear.
The numeric keypad is for numeric data entry. You might use it for
accounting or statistics. You would not use it for word processing,
programming, web browsing, social networking. To get an idea of how
often it is used, have a look at the wear on the legends on used
computer keyboards.
Lew
>> Removing the
>> numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will have no effect on where the
>> right hand rests whatsoever if people do that smart thing.
Roedy Green wrote:
> I don't have a numeric keypad on my Kinesis (there is an embedded
> one). My right hand rests with the right pinky just north west of the
> right shift key. The mouse sits immediately to the right.
>
> With a conventional keyboard, the mouse would be several inches to the
> right because the keypad would intervene.
>
> see http://mindprod.com/bgloss/kinesis.html
> for a picture of the layout which should make this clear.
You apparently missed my comment upthread that I used a Kinesis kb for years.
> The numeric keypad is for numeric data entry. You might use it for
> accounting or statistics. You would not use it for word processing,
> programming, web browsing, social networking. To get an idea of how
> often it is used, have a look at the wear on the legends on used
> computer keyboards.
You elided the important part of my comment: that "that smart thing" is to put
the mouse on the left. Removing anything from the far right of the keyboard
then has no effect on right-hand placement because the mouse is on the left.
Thus the basis for my remark is not the disputable value of the keypad but the
irrelevance if the mouse is switched to the left.
I used a Kinesis keyboard for five years on a job. Hardly a day went by that
I didn't lament its lack of a separate numeric keypad. Many times I did
switch the keys to embedded numeric mode, but it was a poor substitute.
Utility is in the hand of the holder.
That didn't affect where my right hand rested because I had the mouse on the left.
--
Lew
Roedy Green
<break.p...@google.mail.removepreviousdot.com> wrote, quoted or
indirectly quoted someone who said :
> cast into room 101
Could you explain that reference? I presume it means
"discarded/destroyed".
Roedy Green
indirectly quoted someone who said :
>It only supports Windows and Mac, that makes it useless.
Huh? I thought any Windows keyboard automatically worked on Linux.
Does it need a special driver?
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>What's the trick was just a repeated question number one, to elaborate.
>I wanted to know why is it better to point and click with my left hand
One reason is the mouse is closer to where you normally rest your left
hand that a mouse on the right is to where you normally rest your
right hand, at least if you don't have the old IBM layout with the
function keys on the left.
Roedy Green
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>You elided the important part of my comment: that "that smart thing" is to put
>the mouse on the left.
I personally don't see that as practical, though I could see as
excellent for lefties or ambidextrous people. I have enough problem as
it is with fine control of the mouse with my right hand. With the left
it is hopeless, in particular trying to select several letters out of
a word with that fine vertical cursor. I think though I am unusually
clumsy.
The other problem is some mice are designed to be use only left or
only right handed. You might have to get new mouse.
My main problem with fine control of mice is getting the coefficient
of friction down. Even with frequent cleanings of feed and pad and
replacing feet, the mouse motion is never as smooth as I'd like for
fine control.
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>very useful.
What do you use it for?
Roedy Green
>
>Maybe a keyboard should just come as a collection of 105 lego bricks with
>keys on top, and a baseboard. Some kind of personal-area network could
>collect the keypresses. Keys could use the energy of keystrokes to power
>themselves. Everyone would be able to adjust their keyboard on a whim, and
>everyone would have exactly the layout they wanted.
I proposed that idea a couple of decades ago, as vision of the future.
However, by now with a throw-away display in every pregnancy test
strip, it might be possible to put a display on every key, and have
the legends change as you type -- so for example you could flip to
accents mode, or Greek or Cyrillic -- letting you type the complete
Unicode set with visual feedback, and of course fully customisable
layouts.
You could also have work in learn-to-type mode where legends were
hidden, with occasional peeks.
It might come with half a dozen spare keys, so this might be a 20 year
high end investment.
Roedy Green
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>It is silly to make pronouncements about "the numpad not being that
>useful" since that depends on the user
Exactly. All I said was CONSIDER a keyboard without such a keypad if
you don't use it.
You are like some nasty lawyer trying to twist the words of others.
FUCK OFF.
Roedy Green
indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>> Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.
These things have a 48x48 colour display on each key. $2400 US. User
programmable. You can even do animations on the keys. Requires two
USB ports. No Linux support.
Eric Sosman
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:48:09 +0100, Break Point
> <break.p...@google.mail.removepreviousdot.com> wrote, quoted or
> indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
>> cast into room 101
>
> Could you explain that reference? I presume it means
> "discarded/destroyed".
At a guess, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_101>. GIYF.
--
Eric Sosman
eso...@ieee-dot-org.invalid
Jim Janney
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:49:57 +0100, Tom Anderson
> <tw...@urchin.earth.li> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
> said :
>
>>
>>Maybe a keyboard should just come as a collection of 105 lego bricks with
>>keys on top, and a baseboard. Some kind of personal-area network could
>>collect the keypresses. Keys could use the energy of keystrokes to power
>>themselves. Everyone would be able to adjust their keyboard on a whim, and
>>everyone would have exactly the layout they wanted.
>
> I proposed that idea a couple of decades ago, as vision of the future.
> However, by now with a throw-away display in every pregnancy test
> strip, it might be possible to put a display on every key, and have
> the legends change as you type -- so for example you could flip to
> accents mode, or Greek or Cyrillic -- letting you type the complete
> Unicode set with visual feedback, and of course fully customisable
> layouts.
>
> You could also have work in learn-to-type mode where legends were
> hidden, with occasional peeks.
>
> It might come with half a dozen spare keys, so this might be a 20 year
> high end investment.
Keyboard labels are for wimps:
http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard_model_s_ultimate.php
--
Jim Janney
Lew
>> It is silly to make pronouncements about "the numpad not being that
>> useful" since that depends on the user
>
Roedy Green wrote:
> Exactly. All I said was CONSIDER a keyboard without such a keypad if
> you don't use it.
>
> [expletive deleted]
>
You said to consider it because the numpad isn't that useful. I
joined in the OPEN DISCUSSION with my own take. That is my right. I
will continue to exercise that right no matter how much you think
cursing at me will intimidate or browbeat me into submission to your
will.
I am seriously disappointed at your descent into trollishness on this
one. Most of the time I respect your contribution, but this wasn't
one of those times. Show some couth.
--
Lew
Lew
Lew wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>> very useful.
Roedy Green wrote:
> What do you use it for?
Typing numbers.
--
Lew
Andreas Leitgeb
>>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>>> very useful.
> Roedy Green wrote:
>> What do you use it for?
> Typing numbers.
Up to two digits: upper row
Three subsequent digits or more: numpad
That's how I usually do it, anyway.
PS: my mouse is on the right side, for my left hand
sucks at positioning the mouse, and I'd mix up the
buttons, too (no matter if they'd be reassigned or
not).
Arved Sandstrom
> Tom Anderson wrote:
>> I don't use the numpad much, but i [sic] do use the keys in between the numpad
>> and the main block, and without a numpad, you don't get a proper version
>
> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
> very useful.
>
> Lew
Useful for some, useless for others. For example, on Windows keyboards I
never use any key off to the right of the main block. Not the numpad,
not the arrow keys, not the Insert-Home-Delete-etc block, nothing. So
when I use my primary computer - a Mac laptop - which has none of that
off to the right anyway, I notice no real change.
I'm not saying get rid of those extra keys, by any means. I'm simply
pointing out that they are not very useful as a general rule, they are
useful for some people, irrelevant for others. Me, I'm not an accountant
so I couldn't care less about the numpad.
AHS
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:01:55 -0700 (PDT), Lew<l...@lewscanon.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>> very useful.
>
> What do you use it for?
What symbols are on those keys?
It seems as a good guess that he use the keys because he want
those symbols.
Arne
Lew
>>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>>> very useful.
Roedy Green wrote:
>> What do you use it for?
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> What symbols are on those keys?
>
> It seems as a good guess that he use the keys because he want
> those symbols.
Arne, you are a genius! You have unlocked the puzzle that has baffled the
greatest minds in our field! That's exactly what I use it for! Amazing!
--
Lew
Arne Vajhøj
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT), Lew<l...@lewscanon.com>
> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> It is silly to make pronouncements about "the numpad not being that
>> useful" since that depends on the user
>
> Exactly. All I said was CONSIDER a keyboard without such a keypad if
> you don't use it.
Actually you wrote:
#Consider getting a keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
#never use it.
No if at all.
> You are like some nasty lawyer trying to twist the words of others.
If he were a nasty lawyer and this were a trial then you would
be on the way to jail for lying in court about what you said.
But then this is not a court ....
> FUCK OFF.
I am pretty sure (and pretty happy with) that Lew will no go away.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:39:29 -0500, jebblue<n...@n.nnn> wrote, quoted or
> indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> It only supports Windows and Mac, that makes it useless.
>
> Huh? I thought any Windows keyboard automatically worked on Linux.
> Does it need a special driver?
If it is a standard keyboard: yes.
If it has special keys that are not just sending sequences of
existing keys, then something is necessary to handle those keys.
Arne
Andreas Leitgeb
>>>> Actually, it's a really, really terrible point since the numpad is
>>>> very useful.
> Arne, you are a genius! [...] That's exactly what I use it for! Amazing!
There are of course also other uses than those: E.g. when I press Win+3/PgDn
my windowmanager will slam the currently active window into the lower right
corner. (and with Win+5 center it) These uses do not obviously follow from
the *symbols* on the keys as much as from their position.
I'm of course not disputing Arne's "likeliest guess" :-)
Andreas Leitgeb
> On 30-04-2010 13:43, Roedy Green wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:39:29 -0500, jebblue<n...@n.nnn> wrote, quoted or
>> indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>> It only supports Windows and Mac, that makes it useless.
>> Huh? I thought any Windows keyboard automatically worked on Linux.
>> Does it need a special driver?
> If it is a standard keyboard: yes.
"yes", as in: if it is a standard keyboard, then it works with linux...
> If it has special keys that are not just sending sequences of
> existing keys, then something is necessary to handle those keys.
Typical extra keys (open browser, open calc, forward/back, Home,
Mail, Vol-Up/Down, Play,Pause,...) work with Linux. They're usually
pre-assigned to reasonable application-launchers, and can be
re-assigned to whatyouwant by means of some dialog). So, this
"something" is already present in all the common linux-desktops.
Those mega-configurable keyboards had better support some default-
profile resembling a standard keyboard, or will give users a hard
time during bios-setup. Beyond that, there may be extra features
that may require (at least for the time until they're successfully
reverse-engineered) some special windows-driver.
Arne Vajhøj
That type of usage of the numeric keypad was very common in
the pre-mouse days.
I think it is rare today.
Arne
Andreas Leitgeb
I do not refute the "rareness"-aspect, but it's not really from old days,
either, as there weren't "Win"-Keys back then :-)
In those pre-mouse days, the number block doubled as the one and only
cursor key block. Back then I couldn't imagine, that cursor-keys
arranged as .:. would be so much easier to use...