Symantec Visual Cafe 3.0 and its lacking JDK 1.2 support
Ralf Sigmund
an year, I was more than happy when I had the Symantec Visual Cafe Standart
Edition 3.0 in my hands.
The writing on the box explicitly states that JDK 1.1 & JDK 1.2 are
supported.
The good-sounding advertisment text does not even give a hint on any
limitations in support of jdk 1.2 .
Well - I happily bought the product.
But when I wanted to use it, I had to realize, that I was betrayed and
belied by Symantec Corporation.
After hours of unsuccesful attempts to compile, run and debug my project, I
had to find out, that VCafe does indeed not fully support JDK 1.2 or the
actual Swing Libaries my own project is based on.
There is some extremely limited support for jdk 1.2 which excludes the user
from any advanced IDE features like debugging, visual cunstruction etc.
I never experienced a software company lying in such a plain and bold way on
me.
My last hope was to wait for an update, which corrects this situation.
But apperently Standart Edition Users are excluded from software updates.
To my current knowledge there is an update for the more expensive Pro- and
Database- Editions but not for the Standart Edition. ( There should be an
update to the Standart Edition at some time in the future. Symantec
representatives do not feel the need to explain any reasons for the
Standard-Ed. specific delay of the update )
So why should standart - users suffer from allready fixed software bugs if
pro - users do not have to cope with theese bugs anymore?
This gives an interesting insight into Symantec's care for its paying
cutomers.
I will write about this situation to all German Computer- and
Software-Development Magazines. I urge anyone, who feels the same way to go
public with his opinion also.
Ralf Sigmund
Max Planck Insitute, Hannover, Germany
Tel. 49 511 5359 233
Fax 49 511 5359 203
Kenny Chaffin
ralf.s...@stud.uni-hannover.de says...
> After developing with the JDK 1.2beta releases and without an IDE for half
> an year, I was more than happy when I had the Symantec Visual Cafe Standart
> Edition 3.0 in my hands.
> But when I wanted to use it, I had to realize, that I was betrayed and
> belied by Symantec Corporation.
> There is some extremely limited support for jdk 1.2 which excludes the user
> from any advanced IDE features like debugging, visual cunstruction etc.
>
> I never experienced a software company lying in such a plain and bold way on
> me.
You must not have any Microsoft products <grin>
>
> This gives an interesting insight into Symantec's care for its paying
> cutomers.
it doesn't. they just want to sell new customers (so it seems) They
release the new versions as _full_ versions available for sale well
before they provide patches for the existing customers. -- To me that
says something.
> I will write about this situation to all German Computer- and
> Software-Development Magazines. I urge anyone, who feels the same way to go
> public with his opinion also.
Good. They need to straighten up their act before they are completely
abandoned by the java community.
>
> Ralf Sigmund
> Max Planck Insitute, Hannover, Germany
> Tel. 49 511 5359 233
> Fax 49 511 5359 203
>
Ralf,
I'm basically in agreement with what you and am waiting on full support
for 1.2 in VCafe. It does "support" 1.2 at least partially. If you
install the jdk1.2 and set up a Virtual Machine in the tools>environment
options>virtual machines setup. It will compile and debug, but can do GUI
development using it and maybe a few other things.
I mostly use KAWA these days. But the debugging is much better with
VCafe, (when it doesn't crash).
Best Wishes,
--
KAC Website Design - Custom Programming, Web Design
Java AdServer Applet Version 2.5 Now Available!
ke...@kacweb.com - http://www.kacweb.com
Roedy Green
wrote:
>Good. They need to straighten up their act before they are completely
>abandoned by the java community.
We programmers mostly want honesty. We can put up with delays, so
long as we know to expect the delays. We can live with bugs so long
as the bugs are known and easy to find out about. However the
marketing people don't understand this.
I remember once working on a medical billing system. The boss brought
in a magazine ad for the product in a medical journal. "NOW with mag
tape claim submission!" it boasted. I had not even SPECed that part
of the program yet.
The programmers at Symantec may be fighting similar battles.
For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com>
--
Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products
-30-
D'Arcy Smith
news:791oe9$g0j$1...@newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de...
>After developing with the JDK 1.2beta releases and without an IDE for half
>an year, I was more than happy when I had the Symantec Visual Cafe Standart
>Edition 3.0 in my hands.
>supported.
>The good-sounding advertisment text does not even give a hint on any
>limitations in support of jdk 1.2 .
>Well - I happily bought the product.
>But when I wanted to use it, I had to realize, that I was betrayed and
>belied by Symantec Corporation.
>After hours of unsuccesful attempts to compile, run and debug my project, I
>had to find out, that VCafe does indeed not fully support JDK 1.2 or the
>actual Swing Libaries my own project is based on.
>There is some extremely limited support for jdk 1.2 which excludes the user
>from any advanced IDE features like debugging, visual cunstruction etc.
You can debug JDK 1.2. In 3.0 it requires some manual setup (listed
in the help).. In 3.0a (free update) this is much more automatic.
>I never experienced a software company lying in such a plain and bold way
on
>me.
No-one has yet sent me exactly what wording we are using (I work
up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What exectly
gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
see how people can get the impression if they don't know what pluggable
JDKs are.
Here is what we currenlty support:
- Executing and Debugging JDK 1.2
- Browsing the JDK 1.2 classes in the class browser.
The form designer does not generate Swing 1.1 code - Swing 1.1 and JDK 1.2
were NOT released when we shipped VCafe 3.0 - so we went with the latest
released versions (Swign 1.0.3 and JDK 1.1.7A).
We are working on getting Swing 1.1 support... one of the main problems is
that all of our internal Swing stuff is written on Swing 1.0.3...
We are also working on getting ourselves HOSTED on JDK 1.2 but that
will take more time.
>My last hope was to wait for an update, which corrects this situation.
That is coming.
>But apperently Standart Edition Users are excluded from software updates.
What??? I'll check on that.
>To my current knowledge there is an update for the more expensive Pro- and
>Database- Editions but not for the Standart Edition.
The way the full version releases go are:
- PE
- DE
- SE
This is because PE is the base set, DE builds on it (they need to add
their stuff ontop of PE). SE is odd because it has less features in
it than PE... but we don't always get all of the #IF DEFs into the code
so we have to go back and put them in (OOPS).
> ( There should be an
>update to the Standart Edition at some time in the future. Symantec
>representatives do not feel the need to explain any reasons for the
>Standard-Ed. specific delay of the update )
Hope the above explains it. We are also working on making this
whole process much smoother (its much better that 1.x and 2.x
were already).
>So why should standart - users suffer from allready fixed software bugs if
>pro - users do not have to cope with theese bugs anymore?
Except for the above reason (we also have to test SE once
the stuff is removed - for the patch I don't think we had any
#IF DEFs to put in) I do not know.
>This gives an interesting insight into Symantec's care for its paying
>cutomers.
The issues are technical ones - if you would like more explanations
I can give them to you.
>I will write about this situation to all German Computer- and
>Software-Development Magazines. I urge anyone, who feels the same way to go
>public with his opinion also.
Please remove the falacy that you cannot debug JDK 1.2 code.
Thx,
..darcy
--
D'Arcy Smith
Sr. Software Engineer
Symantec Corp., Internet Tools Division
If you simply reply to this email it will get forwarded to /dev/null
My Email address is darcy at itools dot symantec dot com
Thinh Le
>up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What exectly
>gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
>see how people can get the impression if they don't know what pluggable
>JDKs are.
"Visual Café Standard Edition 3.0...
...Includes support for JDK 1.2 and the latest Java technology including
JavaBeans, JARs, JNI, serialization and more. "
Above this the exact wording that Symantec is using on the Visual Cafe 3.0
page at http://www.symantec.com/domain/cafe/vcafe30.html
No where in the page is "pluggable" mentioned or defined. If I read this
page,
my impression is that VC3.0 fully supports JDK1.2 and the latest
Java technology.
Kenny Chaffin
says...
I went there earlier today and read that as well, but didn't come away
with the same interpretation. Maybe it's my skeptical nature, but
"support" seems like a "waffle" word to me, it could mean anything....
Tim Smith
>I remember once working on a medical billing system. The boss brought
>in a magazine ad for the product in a medical journal. "NOW with mag
>tape claim submission!" it boasted. I had not even SPECed that part
>of the program yet.
The lead time to place an ad in a major magazine can be several months,
so you've got to expect some kind of extrapolation from the marketing
people, but it sounds a bit extreme in the case you give.
I remember one of the first Mac C compiler companies had to place its
MacWorld ad well before the first line of code was written in order to
have the ad appear in the month the compiler was expected to ship.
--Tim Smith
Thinh Le
>with the same interpretation. Maybe it's my skeptical nature, but
>"support" seems like a "waffle" word to me, it could mean anything....
I guess you are right. The reason I thought that VC3 would do more than
"support" for JDK1.2 is because it's a major upgrade that is not cheap. If
it does not fully support JDK1.2 then what are we paying for, some minor
improvements over VC2.5?
D'Arcy Smith
news:792j7g$bjj$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>>No-one has yet sent me exactly what wording we are using (I work
>>up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What exectly
>>gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
>>see how people can get the impression if they don't know what pluggable
>>JDKs are.
>"Visual Café Standard Edition 3.0...
>...Includes support for JDK 1.2 and the latest Java technology including
>JavaBeans, JARs, JNI, serialization and more. "
Thx.
>Above this the exact wording that Symantec is using on the Visual Cafe 3.0
>page at http://www.symantec.com/domain/cafe/vcafe30.html
>No where in the page is "pluggable" mentioned or defined. If I read this
>page,
>my impression is that VC3.0 fully supports JDK1.2 and the latest
>Java technology.
Just to be "anal" about it - no where do we say "full" either.
I understand the confusion - the support is there - but it
is not all integrated yet.
If the product does not meet your expectations we do have
a money back gurantee (30 or 60 days I think). But we are
currently working on getting Swing 1.1 support into the
product and hosting ourselves on JDK 1.2. I have no reason
to expect that we will chanrge 3.x cutomers for those... but I
am just a developer not product management.
Steve Crook
> up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What exectly
> gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
On UK boxes it says 'Supports JDK 1.1 and 1.2' without any qualification
of the level of support. I got my copy and I'd already seen postings on
the net that hinted that the 1.2 support wasn't complete so I didn't find
it too disappointing when I found the truth.
Steve
D'Arcy Smith
news:MPG.111e41efc...@news.dimensional.com...
>In article <791oe9$g0j$1...@newsserver.rrzn.uni-hannover.de>,
>ralf.s...@stud.uni-hannover.de says...
>> This gives an interesting insight into Symantec's care for its paying
>> cutomers.
>it doesn't. they just want to sell new customers (so it seems) They
>release the new versions as _full_ versions available for sale well
>before they provide patches for the existing customers. -- To me that
>says something.
WHAT???? The new versions are available for new users and existing
customers at the same time.
We have NEVER provided patches from a "n.x" version to a "n+1.0"
version.
We provide PATCHES for .x versions (like 3.0a). But what happens
first is that the full version is released because it is tested. Then we
have to generate a patch and test that and make it available. Then
we take that patch and test it on live update and then make it
available. Also PE comes out before DE because DE adds to
the PE funtionality and requires more testing.
>> I will write about this situation to all German Computer- and
>> Software-Development Magazines. I urge anyone, who feels the same way to
go
>> public with his opinion also.
>Good. They need to straighten up their act before they are completely
>abandoned by the java community.
We are not/have not/will not "abandon" the Java community.
I beleive that we have provided the most amount of releases
(major and ninor) than any other IDE vendor. I beleive that
we are the only ones to have released JDK 1.2 debugging.
Where do you get "abandon"?
> I'm basically in agreement with what you and am waiting on full support
>for 1.2 in VCafe. It does "support" 1.2 at least partially. If you
>install the jdk1.2 and set up a Virtual Machine in the tools>environment
>options>virtual machines setup. It will compile and debug, but can do GUI
>development using it and maybe a few other things.
I have explained the technical resons for this many times... I
don't necessaily agree with our marketing department... but...
We are working on Swing 1.1 support right now as well as
JDK 1.2 support (these will be released separatly).
No vendor, that I am aware of, tries to work with beta versions
of the JDK (that is HOST on them). Borland did for JBuilder 1.0
and was delayed - I am not saying that is the only reason but
I am sure it was atleast one. We released VCafe BEFORE
JDK 1.2 or Swing 1.1 were released. If we had tried to tie
ourselves to JDK 1.2 VCafe 3.0 would not yet be released.
Darrel Riekhof
> The form designer does not generate Swing 1.1 code - Swing 1.1 and JDK 1.2
> were NOT released when we shipped VCafe 3.0 - so we went with the latest
> released versions (Swign 1.0.3 and JDK 1.1.7A).
>
> We are working on getting Swing 1.1 support... one of the main problems is
> that all of our internal Swing stuff is written on Swing 1.0.3...
>
> We are also working on getting ourselves HOSTED on JDK 1.2 but that
> will take more time.
10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
it. This company has no class.
As soon as there is another viable option for our project, I'm saying goodbye to
vcafe.
Darrel
Kenny Chaffin
nos...@itools.symantec.com says...
>
> WHAT???? The new versions are available for new users and existing
> customers at the same time.
>
> We have NEVER provided patches from a "n.x" version to a "n+1.0"
> version.
>
> We provide PATCHES for .x versions (like 3.0a). But what happens
> first is that the full version is released because it is tested. Then we
> have to generate a patch and test that and make it available. Then
> we take that patch and test it on live update and then make it
> available. Also PE comes out before DE because DE adds to
> the PE funtionality and requires more testing.
>
>
>
for existing customers --- no other software company I deal with does
this. Adobe always releases patches (not new versions (. versions or
not), Microsoft releases patches, not full versions, Metacreations...etc.
etc.
> We are not/have not/will not "abandon" the Java community.
> I beleive that we have provided the most amount of releases
> (major and ninor) than any other IDE vendor. I beleive that
> we are the only ones to have released JDK 1.2 debugging.
> Where do you get "abandon"?
Not Symantec abandoning the community, the other way around.
I just see a lot of problems with supporting the product and providing
solutions to your existing customers. The bugs need to be fixed before
new versions are released.
I do applaud your own personal efforts and Paul here in the newsgroup --
you do an outstanding job, I thank you.
> I have explained the technical resons for this many times... I
> don't necessaily agree with our marketing department... but...
>
Understood.
> We are working on Swing 1.1 support right now as well as
> JDK 1.2 support (these will be released separatly).
Great, I'm aware of that
>
> No vendor, that I am aware of, tries to work with beta versions
> of the JDK (that is HOST on them). Borland did for JBuilder 1.0
> and was delayed - I am not saying that is the only reason but
> I am sure it was atleast one. We released VCafe BEFORE
> JDK 1.2 or Swing 1.1 were released. If we had tried to tie
> ourselves to JDK 1.2 VCafe 3.0 would not yet be released.
>
> ..darcy
Great, and yes I am aware of you're typically being the first. It's
great, but it would also be great to have an IDE that didn't crash every
time I use it. It would also be nice if you could release the patches
before the "full" release.
Thanks for your work and your efforts!!
KAC
Kenny Chaffin
> > 10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
> > the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
> > to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
> > it. This company has no class.
>
> support in VC 3.0 is still greater than JBuilder, Visual Age or J++.
>
> If you have been a Symantec customer since Cafe (over 3 years ago) you
> got:
> Cafe 1.0 paid for
> Cafe 1.1 free
> Cafe 1.2 free
> Cafe 1.5 free
> Cafe 1.8 free
> Visual Cafe 1.0 paid for
> Visual Cafe 1.2 free
> Visual Cafe 2.0 paid for
> Visual Cafe 2.1 free
> Visual Cafe 2.5 free
> Visual Cafe 3.0 paid for
> Visual Cafe 3.0a free
>
> Note that the free releases outnumber the paid for releases so your
> argument above does not stack up.
>
> It's hardly the fault of Symantec that Sun kept mpoving the goalposts by
> changing the location of the classes in JDK 1.2 (though this was the
> correct decision IMHO) and that they announced the final version when VC
> 3 was code complete.
>
> >
> > As soon as there is another viable option for our project, I'm saying goodbye to
> > vcafe.
>
> manufacturer has released more free updates.
> --
> Paul White - RPM Symantec Internet Tools
> NEW Visual Cafe 3.0 Shipping in English, French, German and Japanese -
> Upgrades and crossgrades available
> ***FREE Visual Cafe 2.5 dbDE Trial Version***FREE Academic licences***
> Website: http://www.visualcafe.com/ Knowledgebase:
> http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/knowbase/index.html
> FTP site: ftp://itools.symantec.com FAQ:
> http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/faq/index.html
> Newsgroup: news://service.symantec.com HTTP News:
> http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/news/index.html
> The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and not of
> Symantec corporation
Paul,
Personally I'm much less concerned with 1.2 support, than with a
stable IDE. Particularly when (for applets) the browsers don't support
1.2 or even 1.1 in many cases.
My personal preference would be for symantec to put more effort in making
the ide rock-solid-stable with bug fixes and no crashes than to chase the
ever-advancing jdk.
As I said in my other message thank you and Darcy for all your efforts,
particularly here in the newsgroup. I do appreciate it and please take my
comments as an effort to help improve the product -- I do use it and I've
tried visual age, j++, etc., but I also want it to improve.
Best Wishes,
D'Arcy Smith
news:36B62B0F...@primenet.com...
>D'Arcy Smith wrote:
>> The form designer does not generate Swing 1.1 code - Swing 1.1 and JDK
1.2
>> were NOT released when we shipped VCafe 3.0 - so we went with the latest
>> released versions (Swign 1.0.3 and JDK 1.1.7A).
>> We are working on getting Swing 1.1 support... one of the main problems
is
>> that all of our internal Swing stuff is written on Swing 1.0.3...
>> We are also working on getting ourselves HOSTED on JDK 1.2 but that
>> will take more time.
>10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully
supporting
>the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates.
>They'll say anything to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room
for a
>snake to get out of it. This company has no class.
Bull. We do not opperate that way. How much did 1.0 users have to pay
to get JDK 1.1 support? NOTHONG. The fact is that we released VCafe
3.0 before JDK 1.2 PERIOD. I see no reason for us to charge for JDK 1.2
support. We do not consider HOSTING ourselves on a new JDK a major
upgrade. Product marketing may choose to do charge - but right now I know
of no plans to do that (that would be my CMA statement).
>As soon as there is another viable option for our project, I'm saying
goodbye to
>vcafe.
Sorry to hear that. What exactly are you techinical problems with
VCafe (I'm a developer not a marketer)
Kenny Chaffin
adex...@aol.com says...
> I have very mixed feelings about VC. I started
> with 2.0 (horrible... buggy... piece of shit). It
> was so bad that at the office we switch to
> using J++ and IBM's Visual Age. when 2.1
> came out it was fantastic! 2.5 sucked... worse
> than 2.0 and it crashed my NT box at least
> 4 times a day. 2.5a is fantastic. We also have
> 3.0 and based on VC's history, Im avoiding
> it like the plague until 3.1. Also the help
> docs that are in 3.0 suck. the one in 2.5a is
> excellent. the question people on here need
> to ask is: isn't it illegal for symantec to advertise
> JFC and 1.2 support when it really doesnt.
>
That depends on your definition of "sex"
<grin>
Doug Bell
> We are not/have not/will not "abandon" the Java community.
That's great news! I had heard that Symantec had abandoned their Mac-based
Java developers. When can we expect a new release on the Mac?
Doug Bell
db...@2nu.com
Darrel Riekhof
> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:30:39 -0600, Darrel Riekhof
> <rie...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
> >the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
> >to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
> >it. This company has no class.
>
>
> 1. Symantec offered free upgrades over and over for 2.x. They would
> let you download free, or get a CD for $10 which is effectively free.
> What evidence do you have that they will discontinue that policy in
> 3.x?
Free upgrades? I think you are being way too kind with your terminology. These
'free upgrades' were just bug fixes for pre-beta level stuff they put out to
begin with. I don't think I owe Symantec any thank you's for making me download
60 megs every couple months to fix a boatload of problems that should have never
been there in the first place.
I have no evidence that they will not continue to release buggy versions and
force me to re-install bug fix versions.
> 2. What would you have them do if the JDK 1.2 stuff is not completely
> finished? Should they not have released at least what they had?
First, they should have been honest instead of trying to mislead developers into
thinking it supported 1.2.
Second, since they said it supported 1.2, they should make a free update
available with 1.2 support. I have serious doubts they will considering their
track record.
> 3. How COULD they have the JDK 1.2 stuff completely ready when the JDK
> 1.2 was only released in final form very recently?
How could they say they did?
Darrel
D'Arcy Smith
>In article <7953ur$rlu$1...@it-news.symantec.com>,
>nos...@itools.symantec.com says...
>>
>> WHAT???? The new versions are available for new users and existing
>> customers at the same time.
>>
>> We have NEVER provided patches from a "n.x" version to a "n+1.0"
>> version.
>> We provide PATCHES for .x versions (like 3.0a). But what happens
>> first is that the full version is released because it is tested. Then we
>> have to generate a patch and test that and make it available. Then
>> we take that patch and test it on live update and then make it
>> available. Also PE comes out before DE because DE adds to
>> the PE funtionality and requires more testing.
>Right, that's what I mean, the full version is available before the patch
>for existing customers --- no other software company I deal with does
>this.
But we work off of the full version:
Full versions tested -> make patch -> test patch -> make live update
-> test live update.
To do what you want would slow down the whole process. Customers
out there with T1 and Cable modems would have to wait until live
update is done even though the full ypdate is ready. Why do that?
I have a Cable modem - I don't mind 100meg downloads. We aren't
doing it because we are catering to new customers instead of existing
customers - we do it vecause that is the order that things are done.
People complain that Inprise doesn't make their updates available
over the web - the complaint is from customers with high speed
connections who do not want to wait.
> Adobe always releases patches (not new versions (. versions or
>not), Microsoft releases patches, not full versions, Metacreations...etc.
>etc.
>> We are not/have not/will not "abandon" the Java community.
>> I beleive that we have provided the most amount of releases
>> (major and ninor) than any other IDE vendor. I beleive that
>> we are the only ones to have released JDK 1.2 debugging.
>> Where do you get "abandon"?
>Not Symantec abandoning the community, the other way around.
Ah.
>I just see a lot of problems with supporting the product and providing
>solutions to your existing customers. The bugs need to be fixed before
>new versions are released.
That is what we are doing. We got approval from management to
work mainly on bug fixes. That is what 3.0a is - we have other bug
fix releases in the works.
>I do applaud your own personal efforts and Paul here in the newsgroup --
>you do an outstanding job, I thank you.
Thx.
>Great, and yes I am aware of you're typically being the first. It's
>great, but it would also be great to have an IDE that didn't crash every
>time I use it. It would also be nice if you could release the patches
>before the "full" release.
The patch won't happen first. As for stability - if you have used
VCafe sine 1.0 you must admit that it is a hell of a lot more
stable. Also the majority of work being done now is to improve
the stability.
D'Arcy Smith
news:dbell-ya02408000...@news-server.san.rr.com...
>"D'Arcy Smith" <See .sig for real address> wrote:
>
>
>Java developers. When can we expect a new release on the Mac?
The kind of questions a developer hates... : -)
Standard answer is that we can't discuss dates of future releases...
Doug Bell
> Doug Bell <db...@2nu.com> wrote in message
> news:dbell-ya02408000...@news-server.san.rr.com...
> >"D'Arcy Smith" <See .sig for real address> wrote:
> >
> >> We are not/have not/will not "abandon" the Java community.
> >
> >That's great news! I had heard that Symantec had abandoned their Mac-based
> >Java developers. When can we expect a new release on the Mac?
>
> The kind of questions a developer hates... : -)
>
> Standard answer is that we can't discuss dates of future releases...
I take it though from your answer that I *can* expect a future release...
Doug Bell
db...@2nu.com
Roedy Green
<rie...@primenet.com> wrote:
>10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
>the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
>to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
>it. This company has no class.
I think you are being a bit unfair here.
1. Symantec offered free upgrades over and over for 2.x. They would
let you download free, or get a CD for $10 which is effectively free.
What evidence do you have that they will discontinue that policy in
3.x?
2. What would you have them do if the JDK 1.2 stuff is not completely
finished? Should they not have released at least what they had?
3. How COULD they have the JDK 1.2 stuff completely ready when the JDK
1.2 was only released in final form very recently?
For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com>
Paul White
> the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
> to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
> it. This company has no class.
AFIK we have no plans to charge for JDK 1.2 support - the JDK 1.2
support in VC 3.0 is still greater than JBuilder, Visual Age or J++.
If you have been a Symantec customer since Cafe (over 3 years ago) you
got:
Cafe 1.0 paid for
Cafe 1.1 free
Cafe 1.2 free
Cafe 1.5 free
Cafe 1.8 free
Visual Cafe 1.0 paid for
Visual Cafe 1.2 free
Visual Cafe 2.0 paid for
Visual Cafe 2.1 free
Visual Cafe 2.5 free
Visual Cafe 3.0 paid for
Visual Cafe 3.0a free
Note that the free releases outnumber the paid for releases so your
argument above does not stack up.
It's hardly the fault of Symantec that Sun kept mpoving the goalposts by
changing the location of the classes in JDK 1.2 (though this was the
correct decision IMHO) and that they announced the final version when VC
3 was code complete.
>
> As soon as there is another viable option for our project, I'm saying goodbye to
> vcafe.
Your decision - but I'd like to know what other major Java IDE
Adexsi007
Adexsi007
moving over to Inprise's JBuilder -- much
better support and honesty!
Adexsi007
you give me the fixed version for free.
somethings not right here. as a customer I
should be getting good software the first
time. as soon as 3.1 comes out and word on
the net says its stable and I can use
swing 1.1.1 beta 1 on it, then i'll upgrade.
until then symantec is losing out to JBuilder
and the rest of the developers where i work
at (and we're not small by any means either).
Juergen Kindler
> 10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
> the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
> to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
> it. This company has no class.
Anyone knows a company that has and still survives? >;->
Most companies I know try to soothe their customers with half-lies
and half-truths - mixing both pretty well - like arabian story-
tellers. They are pretty good at hiding THEIR interpretation of their
marketing blabla...
I purchased VCafe 2.0 WDE last year to learn a little Java at home.
It simply crashed every time I tried to save a project. Waited hours
for my VCafe 2.5 download to finish, installed that and decided to
abandon it.
I do not care at all WHAT was messy or WHO was to blame (Maybe Bill
Gates? Or Billary Clinton? Or Billy Crystal?) I simply found that it
did not work and that was it.
I've tested lots of alpha and beta versions, but I really get sick if
I have to pay for them - even if they are called 'final'.
It's not a personal thing. I simply deny to invest time or money in
products that prooved to be extremely unstable in the past unless I
hear significantly BETTER news.
My ha'penny ...
--
Jürgen Kindler
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jürgen Kindler =B-) mailto:j...@shd.de
SHD Datentechnik GmbH & Co. KG fax: (49)2632/295-269
Rennweg 60 phone: (49)2632/295-431
D-56626 Andernach http://www.shd.de
Roedy Green
<rie...@primenet.com> wrote:
>I don't think I owe Symantec any thank you's for making me download
>60 megs every couple months to fix a boatload of problems that should have never
>been there in the first place.
"should" is an odd word. I would be nice if all programs were bug
free, but almost nobody seems to be producing them with the current
crop of tools, at least not large programs like IDES and compilers. I
think the solution is to produce better program-writing tools (e.g.
SCIDs) rather that complain God-like that mortals "should" be able to
write bug-free code first time out.
It is a bit like blaming end-users for not being able to figure out
the Windows UI. End users are the given. We need tools that deal with
them as they are, not as they would ideally be.
If it makes you feel any better, I think I have woken neighbours a few
times screaming at my computer when some Symantec bug bit me that made
me lose work.
louyov...@ibm.net
updates.
It isn't about how many upgrades are for free versus fee. It is about fixing bugs,
making the product stable and then adding support for the language improvements. 3.0a
still crashes on my system and I still have to moogie around with the "3 magic files".
I am tired of messages that say: " if you get this message send it to Symantec..."
These are bugs, many of these were/are in 2.5a. You are the ones who decided to ship
a product with out a public BETA. It almost seems as if the upgrades to get from BETA
to ship level are free and then it costs to get the rest of the fixes via the next
BETA. Sorry, the devil made me say that :-|
Here is a recent excerpt from your VC 2.5 newsgroup:
Question:
> The VC editor locks up on me after I do an Alt-F3 search. I can't
> move the cursor after this point. This happened once before and I had
> to reinstall VC dbde 2.5. Do you have any idea of what may be causing
> this and what I can do short of a re-install?
Answer (Symantec):
>>I think this was a known issue and was fixed in 3.0. You can get
>>upgrade information at cafe.symantec.com.
Great bug fix... there were others.
I think most of us understand the problems with chasing a new technology and most also
have some patience. I don't mind waiting for full 1.2 support, I even trust you (well
I trust the developers, not the peddlers <g>). I don't like it when basic bugs (like
stability) can only be resolved via chargeable upgrades... hmm, reminds me of some
other companies I know...<smile>.
My biggest disappointment in VC 3.0a DBDE (if I ignore the crashes) is the
shallowness in the implementation of the database support and the difficulty of making
changes to it. I recognize that some of the changes would need to be made in Swing
stuff, where there is no source, but that was Symantec's decision. The end result is
what I am after. I have decided that we would be better off with something else. I
just don't know what that something else is.
Small, simple example:
The QBE feature built in is a nice touch. It looks like just the ticket until you
realize that
1. Searching on a filter for a field cannot include the ability to sort on that field.
If I set order by to one field, I am stuck with that for all requerys via QBE.
Thinking that this was probably stupidity on my part (I am in the slow group), I
posted the question. Alas, there is no way to modify the sql statement or the order by
clause at run time. Order by in all sql statements was an issue with 2.0 and we still
stuck with a hack to get around it. Why they didn't make the sql statement for a
querynavigator editable escapes me, but then I am in the slow group <smile>.
2. You can't enter operators in a formatted textfield.
Are these a big deal? Well, if you bought the DBDE edition to have most the GUI
work done for you and some ease of customizing, then it is. I don't mind doing my own
SQL, I wanted the bindings, the navigators, etc.
And yes, I intend to take Symantec up on their 60 day refund. Last year I waited
for the promised upgrade to 2.1a, which never materialized (jumped to 2.5 several
months later). I am not mad at anybody, just disappointed. Most of my 60 days with 3.0
were spent waiting for the patch (if one can call a 40 meg download a patch) so I
could run the product without crashing all the time.
Most of us do appreciate the input from people like you and D'Arcy. It is
refreshing to watch a marketeer and a developer run amuck around the groups. <smile>
Thank you.
Lou Yovin
If a man says something in the forest and there is no woman there, is he still wrong?
Paul White wrote:
> > 10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
> > the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
> > to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
> > it. This company has no class.
>
Roedy Green
I would take your complaints about Symantec more seriously if you
posted them with your real reply address.
Also consider comparing Symantec to its competitors, not to some
imaginary ideal. What was Microsoft's C++ compiler like this many
years out the gate?
I too am very frustrated with the bug level in released code
generally, but I don't think anything short of a massive redesign of
languages and coding tools is going to do much about it.
When I discovered how version control is actually done at Microsoft,
presumable other large companies as well, I was quite amazed that
anything works at all.
Kenny Chaffin
> louyov...@ibm.net,
>
> I would take your complaints about Symantec more seriously if you
> posted them with your real reply address.
>
> Also consider comparing Symantec to its competitors, not to some
> imaginary ideal. What was Microsoft's C++ compiler like this many
> years out the gate?
>
> I too am very frustrated with the bug level in released code
> generally, but I don't think anything short of a massive redesign of
> languages and coding tools is going to do much about it.
Well, yeah, but my Adobe products (photoshop, illustrator) virtually
never crash. There were a couple of relatively serious bugs in PS5
though. And Painter (Metacreations/fractal) is about the worst bug-
infested thing I've ever seen, but I love what it can do!
>
>
> For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com>
> --
> Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products
> -30-
>
--
louyovi...@ibm.net
Roedy Green wrote:
> I would take your complaints about Symantec more seriously if you
> posted them with your real reply address.
Oops, oversight on my part... <blush>
louy...@ibm.net (although I don't put that in my preferences to avoid
spam... I wonder if that really works, I haven't heard from that porno
site in Russia lately)
> Also consider comparing Symantec to its competitors, not to some
> imaginary ideal.
I really wasn't trying to compare it to anything. I was just trying to
state my feelings towards fee/free upgrade hype versus fixing the bugs.
> I too am very frustrated with the bug level in released code
> generally, but I don't think anything short of a massive redesign of
> languages and coding tools is going to do much about it.
>
Alas, this would probably kindle a whole new generation of bugs. <smile>
> When I discovered how version control is actually done at Microsoft,
> presumable other large companies as well, I was quite amazed that
> anything works at all.
>
I am not familiar with their version control process.
Thanks for nudging me about the address.
On the lighter side, the Dilbert cartoon in this months NT magazine is a
must read.
Lou Yovin
louy...@ibm.net
Roedy Green
wrote:
>Well, yeah, but my Adobe products (photoshop, illustrator) virtually
>never crash.
Do you know anything about how they were developed? Languages?
teamsize? code reviews? deadlines?
Microsoft uses huge teams. They do not co-ordinate their efforts at
all most of the time. The manually try to merge all the different
change streams when it comes time for a new build which happens quite
infrequently. I did know roughly how frequently at one point, but I
have forgotten.
I have been using Win98 this evening, and shouting to the winds about
all the bugs, idiocy and wasteful tomfoolery. Microsoft seems to have
good odd numbered products and dreadful even numbered ones. Win98
seems like a big step backwards.
What a flipping production it STILL is to set up an email account!
Kenny Chaffin
> On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:47:39 -0700, ke...@kacweb.com (Kenny Chaffin)
> wrote:
>
> >Well, yeah, but my Adobe products (photoshop, illustrator) virtually
> >never crash.
>
> Do you know anything about how they were developed? Languages?
> teamsize? code reviews? deadlines?
No, not really, I'd assume C++ just like Visual Cafe, but it really
doesn't matter. What matters is the end product, how stable it is, how
well it works and how well it meets expectations.
>
...
> I have been using Win98 this evening, and shouting to the winds about
> all the bugs, idiocy and wasteful tomfoolery. Microsoft seems to have
> good odd numbered products and dreadful even numbered ones. Win98
> seems like a big step backwards.
I've avoided upgrading so far ... planning on waiting til after the first
bug-fix release.
> Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products
Best Wishes,
Joni Niemi
> No-one has yet sent me exactly what wording we are using (I work
> up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What exectly
> gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
> see how people can get the impression if they don't know what pluggable
> JDKs are.
OK, here it (DE version) comes in ISO-8859-1 graphics :-)
The front cover:
+--------------------------------------------
| [SYMANTEC TM] JDK 1.1
| &
| JDK 1.2
| Powerful Pre Java
| Application Development with
| Instant Database Connectivity
| - JFC/Swing Data Binding
| - Query By Example
| - SQL & Stored Procedure Beans
| - JDBC/ODBC with Native Support for
| Oracle, Informix, Sybase and
| Microsoft SQL Server
| - Database, JavaBeans
| and Interaction
| Wizards & Editing
| - Plug in any JDK
| - Industry's fastest JIT Compiler
|
| [huge:]
| VisualCafé
| [smaller:]
| THE FASTEST JAVA DEVELOPMENT SOLUTION FOR CORPORATE DATABASES
| Database Edition Version 3
+-------------------------------------------------
Elsewhere on the package there is JFC/Swing mentioned several times, but
no mention
of which version.
In addition to that, there is not a slightest indication that the
software only
supports visualisations in JDK 1.1.7. JDK 1.1.x is mentioned several
times,
but always WITH JDK 1.2 and text 'Plug in any'...
Plain misleading advertising.
Joni
BTW: I did not know that Symantec had published VC before Sun published
JDK 1.2.
We ordered the software only after Christmas.
--
Joni Niemi
Joni....@iki.fi
Darrel Riekhof
> "should" is an odd word. I would be nice if all programs were bug
> free, but almost nobody seems to be producing them with the current
> crop of tools, at least not large programs like IDES and compilers. I
> think the solution is to produce better program-writing tools (e.g.
> SCIDs) rather that complain God-like that mortals "should" be able to
> write bug-free code first time out.
Check the version: 3.0a. This is not the 'first time out' for VCafe. Why are
you making excuses for Symantec? It is a billion dollar corporation that should
be able to produce better quality code. If everyone had your 'All IDE's suck
right now' attitude, their products would be even worse, although that's very
hard to imagine.
> It is a bit like blaming end-users for not being able to figure out
> the Windows UI. End users are the given. We need tools that deal with
> them as they are, not as they would ideally be.
I don't follow your comparison.
> If it makes you feel any better, I think I have woken neighbours a few
> times screaming at my computer when some Symantec bug bit me that made
> me lose work.
Me too.
Darrel
D'Arcy Smith
news:36B850FD...@the.signatu.re...
D'Arcy Smith wrote:
>> No-one has yet sent me exactly what wording we are using (I work
>> up in Canada not in California so I can't go look at a box). What
exectly
>> gave you the impression that JDK 1.2 was fully supported. I definaly
>> see how people can get the impression if they don't know what pluggable
>> JDKs are.
>OK, here it (DE version) comes in ISO-8859-1 graphics :-)
Thx!
> Elsewhere on the package there is JFC/Swing mentioned several times, but
> no mention of which version.
Assume the latest shipping version at the time we shipped.
That would be Swing 1.0.3. But yes it would be nice if it said
so. I suppose we are able to re-use the boxes (rather not print
new ones) when we generate Swing 1.1 code... saves everyone
money I guess.
> In addition to that, there is not a slightest indication that the
> software only supports visualisations in JDK 1.1.7. JDK 1.1.x is
> mentioned several times, but always WITH JDK 1.2 and text 'Plug in
any'...
You can plug in any JDK.
> Plain misleading advertising.
I am not going to say that it is misleading - I will say that I don't
agree with the way the box says it - it should be more clear. But
I am not in marketing.
> BTW: I did not know that Symantec had published VC before Sun published
> JDK 1.2. We ordered the software only after Christmas.
It shipped in November. There should be some press release on our
web site that can back that up :-)
Just*Me
wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:30:39 -0600, Darrel Riekhof
><rie...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully supporting
>>the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say anything
>>to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out of
>>it. This company has no class.
>
>I think you are being a bit unfair here.
>
>1. Symantec offered free upgrades over and over for 2.x. They would
>let you download free, or get a CD for $10 which is effectively free.
>What evidence do you have that they will discontinue that policy in
>3.x?
>
>2. What would you have them do if the JDK 1.2 stuff is not completely
>finished? Should they not have released at least what they had?
>
>3. How COULD they have the JDK 1.2 stuff completely ready when the JDK
>1.2 was only released in final form very recently?
Well, it's actually been "final" for what, almost two months now. And
how long was it in beta? A looong time. They should have been able
to get it close and then tweak things at final.
This is a quote from their site:
"Includes support for JDK 1.2 and the latest Java technology including
JavaBeans, JARs, JNI, serialization and more."
I didn't see any disclaimers on the entire page about it not *fully*
supporting JDK1.2....
Just*Me
wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:47:39 -0700, ke...@kacweb.com (Kenny Chaffin)
>wrote:
>
>>Well, yeah, but my Adobe products (photoshop, illustrator) virtually
>>never crash.
>
>Do you know anything about how they were developed? Languages?
>teamsize? code reviews? deadlines?
>
>Microsoft uses huge teams. They do not co-ordinate their efforts at
>all most of the time. The manually try to merge all the different
>change streams when it comes time for a new build which happens quite
>infrequently. I did know roughly how frequently at one point, but I
>have forgotten.
>
>I have been using Win98 this evening, and shouting to the winds about
>all the bugs, idiocy and wasteful tomfoolery. Microsoft seems to have
>good odd numbered products and dreadful even numbered ones. Win98
>seems like a big step backwards.
>
>What a flipping production it STILL is to set up an email account!
How is Win98 making it difficult to set up an email account?
And are you saying that Win98 is worse than Win95? I think 98 is
worth the upgrade from 95 if you just can't use NT.
D'Arcy Smith
news:36bfeec4....@news2.newscene.com...
>On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:24:18 GMT, ro...@mindprod.com (Roedy Green)
>wrote:
>>3. How COULD they have the JDK 1.2 stuff completely ready when the JDK
>>1.2 was only released in final form very recently?
>Well, it's actually been "final" for what, almost two months now. And
>how long was it in beta? A looong time. They should have been able
>to get it close and then tweak things at final.
No that is the "stupid" way to do it. It is far too much work for
a company to try to track the private builds we get - or even the
the beta versions.
An obvious trivial example - swing - com.sun.java, java.swing, javax.swing.
We would have had to change 3 times. How about the things that got
removed from earlier betas?
Most vendors wait until the JDK is releases before starting their
work on hosting thei environment on it.
>This is a quote from their site:
>"Includes support for JDK 1.2 and the latest Java technology including
>JavaBeans, JARs, JNI, serialization and more."
>I didn't see any disclaimers on the entire page about it not *fully*
>supporting JDK1.2....
Go look at Inprises site - almost exact same wording - for less support.
I'm going with dueling marketing departments. Doesn't mean that I disagree
with you though.
..darcy
Charles R. Lyttle
>
> On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:47:39 -0700, ke...@kacweb.com (Kenny Chaffin)
> wrote:
>
> >Well, yeah, but my Adobe products (photoshop, illustrator) virtually
> >never crash.
>
> Do you know anything about how they were developed? Languages?
> teamsize? code reviews? deadlines?
>
> Microsoft uses huge teams. They do not co-ordinate their efforts at
> all most of the time. The manually try to merge all the different
> change streams when it comes time for a new build which happens quite
> infrequently. I did know roughly how frequently at one point, but I
> have forgotten.
>
> I have been using Win98 this evening, and shouting to the winds about
> all the bugs, idiocy and wasteful tomfoolery. Microsoft seems to have
> good odd numbered products and dreadful even numbered ones. Win98
> seems like a big step backwards.
>
> What a flipping production it STILL is to set up an email account!
>
When MS started distributing DOS 6.0 with Stacker as the disk
compression utility, they said it was a mistake. They do a build every
night. The staff was to leave their code in condition for a build when
they went home. One of their employees, they said, accidently left his
test code up. That code included Stacker as the MS compression utility
had a bug that affected his work.
Looking at the build numbers on some of their products indicates they do
builds at least everyother day.
--
Russ Lyttle, PE
<http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
Lance D. Braud
>Check the version: 3.0a. This is not the 'first time out' for VCafe. Why
are
>you making excuses for Symantec? It is a billion dollar corporation that
should
>be able to produce better quality code. If everyone had your 'All IDE's
suck
>right now' attitude, their products would be even worse, although that's
very
>hard to imagine.
when you have customers, you have to divide your resources between quality
and features. i'm sure symantec could have had a nearly bug free release
with 3.0, but
we'd all still be stuck with 1.1.4 and awt. i like having the new features
NOW, fix the bugs after. i bet more people agree with that idea, rather
than having pristine code that is six months behind everyone else - we are
dealing in "internet time" now after all.
i was disappointed that the packages weren't renamed javax.swing in 3.0a. I
think the reason was that part of the ide is based on an earlier swing
revision and a simple name change would have broke the ide, but still...
i've been very happy with vCafeDDE. since buying 2.1, we upgraded to
something like 2.2, 2.5, 2.5a, and only with v3.0 did we have to pay $200 to
be able to upgrade for another year with the 3.0 releases. Even when they
changed the sql license from 10 users to unlimited it was still free. and
tech support actually answer my questions.
lance
Bob Jamison
Steve Crook wrote:
>
> On UK boxes it says 'Supports JDK 1.1 and 1.2' without any qualification
> of the level of support. I got my copy and I'd already seen postings on
> the net that hinted that the 1.2 support wasn't complete so I didn't find
> it too disappointing when I found the truth.
>
We just received our copy yesterday (Feb 4), so you can imagine our horror
when we saw com.sun.java.swing in the source code, with no recourse.
I thought we had killed that package name long ago (very long in Internet
years).
Without a secondary package-renaming tool, we cannot deploy our JFC
applets, either with an additional swing.jar (much too large) or with the 1.2
plugin (wrong names.)
Bob
D'Arcy Smith
news:36BB32F2...@lincom-asg.com...
>We just received our copy yesterday (Feb 4), so you can imagine our horror
>when we saw com.sun.java.swing in the source code, with no recourse.
>I thought we had killed that package name long ago (very long in Internet
>years).
We shipped VCafe 3.0 BEFORE Swing 1.1 shipped.
We are in the process of adding Swing 1.1 support.
>Without a secondary package-renaming tool, we cannot deploy our JFC
>applets, either with an additional swing.jar (much too large) or with the
1.2
>plugin (wrong names.)
I will be making a macro available to do just that - hopefully
later today.
Scott Marshall
thread), I posted a message to
symantec.support.devtools.pc.visual-cafe-pro.using and had no response for two
days (see bottom). No wonder -- the Symantec reps were busy here! I've just
read this entire thread (Friday night entertainment) and am impressed with the
general level of discussion, as well as with the confusion of issues. I
laughed, I cried.. ;) ]
THE ISSUE IS DECEPTION
The box of VC3.0 is plainly labeled with JDK 1.2 and should work with it. It
doesn't. I wasted my time. You probably wasted your time. It's Symantec's
marketing department's fault. Of course, it's neither Paul nor D'Arcy's fault.
Symantec's deceptive marketing (almost a tautology for some companies), while
not unique, have cost the world a tangible loss of programmer time, something
which is already in severe shortage. How many of us opened the VCafe box and
tried to make the pluggable VM's work, among other things? How long did it
take? It wasn't obvious, was it? How long did it take to communicate the
problem to others in the hope of finding out what was going on?
After already going through a similar experience with VC2.5, I should have
known better. Don't bother with the CD. Just download the latest version from
the website. If Symantec had put a flyer in the box telling me to check the
website for the latest version before installing, I wouldn't be writing this
rant. In fact, I would be happily working with it. Apparently (I haven't tried
it yet), the 3.0a will work with JDK1.2 for debugging and compilation. Please
warn me if this isn't so.
Why did they do it? They did it to 'capture market share', I suppose. Why am I
angry? Because good marketing/advertising informs the customer -- it doesn't
deceive her. VisualCafe is probably the best thing there is for debugging java
(although their lead is rapidly disappearing. I have to checkout Kawa and
Metamata again, maybe JBuilder). Symantec doesn't _need_ to lie to me to get
me to buy VC3.0. I would be happy to buy it with the knowledge that full
JDK1.2 support will come later. I would put up with downloading whatever
patches are necessary in order to get something, ANYTHING that is a little
better, especially JDK1.2 compatible.
However, the deceptive packaging and websites are only annoying customers, not
capturing them. In March of last year, I bought VCafe for the Mac only to find
that it was JDK1.0.2 (this version number was NOWHERE on the packaging or
website). Great! I could start a Java museum. After only 7 email messages and
3 months, I got my $160 or so back.
D'Arcy Smith wrote:
> Joni Niemi <lo...@the.signatu.re> wrote in message
> news:36B850FD...@the.signatu.re...
> > Elsewhere on the package there is JFC/Swing mentioned several times, but
> > no mention of which version.
>
> Assume the latest shipping version at the time we shipped.
> That would be Swing 1.0.3. But yes it would be nice if it said
> so. I suppose we are able to re-use the boxes (rather not print
> new ones) when we generate Swing 1.1 code... saves everyone
> money I guess.
>
> > In addition to that, there is not a slightest indication that the
> > software only supports visualisations in JDK 1.1.7. JDK 1.1.x is
> > mentioned several times, but always WITH JDK 1.2 and text 'Plug in
> any'...
>
> You can plug in any JDK.
As soon as you're done downloading VC3.0a, right?
My suggestion (plea) to Symantec marketing: Start labeling supported standards
with full version numbers. JDK 1.1.7a, Swing 1.0.3, and so forth. You'll
alienate a lot fewer customers and you'll save everyone a lot of time and
hassle. But don't stop there! Also, clearly indicate which functionality works
with which precise version of Swing, etc. in the documentation, or better yet:
in a separate infosheet!
-scott
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I posted the following to symantec.support.devtools.pc.visual-cafe-pro.using
and had no response for two days. This is to give an idea of the machinations
many people go through when opening VC3.0]
I'm running VisualCafe 3.0 on an NT. I don't use VisualCafe for the
visual stuff -- just for the debugger and some other nice features.
VisualCafe3.0 is apparently more stable than its predecessors. But it
wasn't as simple as it should be to find out from the documentation how to: A)
Use JDK 1.2 B)
Produce a native Win32 (although this is actually quite simple in
practice)
Problem 1 (Disappearing VM's):
I have just re-configured a Java VM in "Environment Options" -> "Virtual
Machines" for the second time only to have it disappear (!) from the
possible VM's, even during the same session. I want to work in Visual
Cafe Pro with the Sun JDK1.2 VM but if I have to constantly re-specify
the VM then it isn't practical. Can anybody explain what is going on?
Problem 2 (Debugger chokes on Swing):
I also couldn't debug because of a startup error in the debugger having
to do with javax (Swing problem). Is it possible to 'visually' debug in
VCafe when using the Sun 1.2 VM? If not, when will it be possible?
Problem 3 (Can't produce native executables):
When using a 1.2VM, I noticed that I don't have the option of producing
an Win32 native executable anymore. Unfortunately, this happened to be
the moment when I wanted to try out this option so it created quite a
bit of confusion when I looked for the option in Project Type. In the
end, I noticed that the option returned as soon as I reset VM to
default. Will it be possible to produce a native32 app from 1.2 code in
the near future? When?
As I understand it, I can use a pluggable VM (if it doesn't disappear) in
order to compile JDK1.2
but I can't debug it if I use Swing and I can't produce a Win32 native
application from it.
What is the difference is between VCafe3.0 and 3.0a? It isn't mentioned
on the website. Should I bother downloading an upgrade?
thanks for any help,
scott
P.S. Why can't I do pattern (string) search for a class in the class
browser?
Andrzej Jan Taramina
>
> THE ISSUE IS DECEPTION
True enough. One of the reasons I have dropped Symantec's VC...Inprise's
JBuider, IBM's VA and even MS J++ and am now a devoted JPadPro user.
--
Andrzej Jan Taramina, CTO
Accredo Systems Corporation
Accredo: http://www.accredosystems.com
Chaeron: http://www.chaeron.com
Sightings: http://www.chaeron.com/sightings/
NOTE: Remove Spamicide (tm) before replying!!!
Kenny Chaffin
tara...@accredosystems.spamicide.com says...
You really should try kawa, if you haven't...
Jeffrey A. Micke
available fast, In fact you upgrade it by installing the new JDK version. Also you get C,C++,
PASCAL, and other compilers all in the same IDE!!!!
Take a look at it.
Ari.S...@chase.com
Symantec Update Center and could not find it (in fact the page was from
November).
Thanks,
In article <36B64A31...@symantec.com>,
Paul White <pwh...@symantec.com> wrote:
> > 10 to 1 says Symantec makes you pay for another upgrade before fully
supporting
> > the 1.2 JDK. That's just the way this company operates. They'll say
anything
> > to get sales, and they leave just enough wiggle room for a snake to get out
of
> > it. This company has no class.
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Paul White
If you go to the site below and click on Downloads then choose your
product (Professiional or Database) that will ask for your ID and
password and get you into the download area for you to get the patch.
Note that the patch will also be available via LiveUpdate shortly.
Ari.S...@chase.com wrote:
>
> Can someone post the URL where we can get 3.0a? My colleague went to the
> Symantec Update Center and could not find it (in fact the page was from
> November).
--
Paul White - RPM Symantec Internet Tools
NEW Visual Cafe 3.0 Shipping in English, French, German and Japanese -
Upgrades and crossgrades available
***FREE Visual Cafe 3.0 DE Trial Version***FREE Academic licences***
Ari.S...@chase.com
unfortunately I am having problems using the debugger with 1.2 Swing apps. I
plugged in the 1.2 VM and have successfully compiled my classes but when I
try to run the app in the debugger I get the following error:
warning: running 1.2 version of SwingUtilities
java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: doPrivileged
at
at javax.swing.SwingUtilities.appContextGet(SwingUtilities.java:1529)
at javax.swing.UIManager.getLAFState(UIManager.java:115)
at javax.swing.UIManager.maybeInitialize(UIManager.java:908)
at javax.swing.UIManager.getUI(UIManager.java:535)
at javax.swing.JPanel.updateUI(JPanel.java:110)
at javax.swing.JPanel.<init>(JPanel.java:70)
at javax.swing.JPanel.<init>(JPanel.java:100)
at javax.swing.JRootPane.createGlassPane(JRootPane.java:225)
at javax.swing.JRootPane.<init>(JRootPane.java:181)
at javax.swing.JFrame.createRootPane(JFrame.java:154)
at javax.swing.JFrame.frameInit(JFrame.java:147)
at javax.swing.JFrame.<init>(JFrame.java:124)
at test.TestTabPanel.<init>(TestTabPanel.java:11)
at test.TestTabPanel.main(TestTabPanel.java:25)
at symantec.tools.debug.MainThread.run(Agent.java:48)
I tried this with a really simple Swing app, I am just showing a JFrame and it
still fails. Any ideas?
In article <36C14CA2...@symantec.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Paul White
I suggest you post this to our own newsgroups from my Sig below.
Paul
Ari.S...@chase.com wrote:
>
> Thanks for the quick response. I have successfully installed 3.0a but
> unfortunately I am having problems using the debugger with 1.2 Swing apps. I
> plugged in the 1.2 VM and have successfully compiled my classes but when I
> try to run the app in the debugger I get the following error:
<snip>
--
Paul White - RPM Symantec Internet Tools
NEW Visual Cafe 3.0 Shipping in English, French, German and Japanese -
Upgrades and crossgrades available
***FREE Visual Cafe 3.0 DE Trial Version***FREE Academic licences***
Website: http://www.visualcafe.com/
Knowledgebase: http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/knowbase/index.html
FAQ: http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/faq/index.html
Newsgroups: news://service.symantec.com