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simplicity
Feb 10, 2012, 11:12:07 AM2/10/12
to
I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
the following command:
javac -d %DST% ^
-classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
%SRC%\MyApplet.java >%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
where
%CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
\User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
and
%CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
communicate with javascript in the page).
OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
browser I am getting the exception
Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
the following command:
javac -d %DST% ^
-classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
%SRC%\MyApplet.java >%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
where
%CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
\User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
and
%CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
communicate with javascript in the page).
OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
browser I am getting the exception
Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
Knute Johnson
Feb 10, 2012, 12:00:30 PM2/10/12
to
jar files?
http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html
--
Knute Johnson
Lew
Feb 10, 2012, 12:29:41 PM2/10/12
to
Knute Johnson wrote:
> simplicity wrote:
> > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
> >
> > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> > the following command:
> >
> > javac -d %DST% ^
> > -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
> > %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
> >
> > where
> > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> > and
> > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> > communicate with javascript in the page).
> >
> > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.
> simplicity wrote:
> > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
> >
> > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> > the following command:
> >
> > javac -d %DST% ^
> > -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
> > %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
> >
> > where
> > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> > and
> > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> > communicate with javascript in the page).
> >
> > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
> > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
> > browser I am getting the exception
> >
> > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
> > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
You need to study the Java tutorial.
> > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
> > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
> > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
> > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
> > is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
> > run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
> > errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
its dependencies. Consider Knute's question:
> Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the
> jar files?
>
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html
changed in this area for a very long time.
You should read the tutorials and other documentation.
--
Lew
simplicity
Feb 10, 2012, 2:26:33 PM2/10/12
to
should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
difference?
Knute Johnson
Feb 10, 2012, 2:37:32 PM2/10/12
to
On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
that file in the archive statement.
> How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
> compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
> difference?
be included by some other method. So I would try including it.
--
Knute Johnson
simplicity
Feb 10, 2012, 2:48:13 PM2/10/12
to
expectations are (1) get the answer, regardless of how trivial, basic
and obvious it might be or (2) get a gibberish like the stuff you
spent time on creating.
"Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
shut.
> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.
> > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
> We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.
I am. I am going to try to improve...
simplicity
Feb 10, 2012, 2:51:32 PM2/10/12
to
and Javascrip so I can pass the info back and forth between the applet
and the HTML.
Thanks for the hint. I am going to try.
simplicity
Feb 10, 2012, 3:30:28 PM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson <nos...@knutejohnson.com> wrote:
<applet code="MyApplet.class" archive="MyApplet.jar,sbsdk.jar"
mayscript
width="700" height="500">
</applet>
works.
For some reason I do not need to spec plugin.jar. Well, this is a
"system" archive so maybe there is a global setting of JVM to link it.
Anyway...
Appreciate your help. Thanks.
Lew
Feb 10, 2012, 4:11:23 PM2/10/12
to
> > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time
repeating his good advice. However, that only answered part of your question.
You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" I am so
very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully.
I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information
that you requested.
> Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
Your answer showed no signs of you having read or understood the very basic
need in Java to have the JAR present at runtime as well as at compile time.
Under the circumstances, telling you what to research and where seemed
appropriate. Now, untwist your knickers, please.
> > > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
>
> > We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.
>
> And also thanks for your attempt to point out to me how really stupid
> I am. I am going to try to improve...
--
Lew
Robert Klemme
Feb 10, 2012, 5:30:20 PM2/10/12
to
On 10.02.2012 20:37, Knute Johnson wrote:
> On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
>> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
>> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
>
> If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
> that file in the archive statement.
But that's not the only option. The Jar's classpath would be another.
> On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
>> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
>> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
>
> If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
> that file in the archive statement.
Cheers
robert
--
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
Roedy Green
Feb 11, 2012, 5:33:05 AM2/11/12
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:12:07 -0800 (PST), simplicity
<stella...@live.ca> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :
>OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
>it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
>browser I am getting the exception
You either have to put links to the other jars in your jar, or include
their contents. The third way to do it is with JNLP that has a
mechanism for specifying extra jars in the *.jnlp file3.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jar.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jarexe.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/classpath.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jnlp.html
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
"If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
<stella...@live.ca> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :
>OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
>it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
>browser I am getting the exception
their contents. The third way to do it is with JNLP that has a
mechanism for specifying extra jars in the *.jnlp file3.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jar.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jarexe.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/classpath.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jnlp.html
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
"If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
rossum
Feb 11, 2012, 1:57:35 PM2/11/12
to
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:48:13 -0800 (PST), simplicity
<stella...@live.ca> wrote:
>"Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>shut.
Lew may sometimes be irritating, but he is far from clueless.
<stella...@live.ca> wrote:
>"Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>shut.
Buffoon? I don't know, I've never seen his comedy act. Have you?
rossum
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 11, 2012, 3:00:49 PM2/11/12
to
On 2/10/2012 3:30 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson<nos...@knutejohnson.com> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
>>> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
>>> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
>>
>> If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
>> that file in the archive statement.
>>
>>> How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
>>> compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
>>> difference?
>>
>> I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
>> be included by some other method. So I would try including it.
>
> On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson<nos...@knutejohnson.com> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
>>> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
>>> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?
>>
>> If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
>> that file in the archive statement.
>>
>>> How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
>>> compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
>>> difference?
>>
>> I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
>> be included by some other method. So I would try including it.
>
> Including sbsk.jar in the archive
>
> <applet code="MyApplet.class" archive="MyApplet.jar,sbsdk.jar"
> mayscript
> width="700" height="500">
> </applet>
>
> works.
>
> For some reason I do not need to spec plugin.jar. Well, this is a
> "system" archive so maybe there is a global setting of JVM to link it.
> Anyway...
The Java browser plugin automatically adds plugin.jar - maybe
>
> <applet code="MyApplet.class" archive="MyApplet.jar,sbsdk.jar"
> mayscript
> width="700" height="500">
> </applet>
>
> works.
>
> For some reason I do not need to spec plugin.jar. Well, this is a
> "system" archive so maybe there is a global setting of JVM to link it.
> Anyway...
not so surprising that a plugin uses plugin.jar.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 11, 2012, 3:14:05 PM2/11/12
to
On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
more Java.
HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.
> Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
> and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.
Arne
simplicity
Feb 11, 2012, 3:58:02 PM2/11/12
to
On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>
> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
> more Java.
Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>
> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
> more Java.
This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
occasions. Just as it did in this case... :-).
>
> HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.
typing saved me possibly hours of searching. Big and measurable
difference from Lew's "RTFM, stupid!!!" type of response.
>
> > Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> > state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> > if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> > answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
> > and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.
>
> Agreed.
people. Lew with his attitude is definitely in the wrong place.
simplicity
Feb 11, 2012, 4:17:51 PM2/11/12
to
On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew <lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> > "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> > whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> > shut.
>
> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> > "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> > whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> > shut.
>
> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
"RTFM" type.
> > > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>
> You asked specifically for help understanding the issue.
exception in the console. So, from the quality point of view you were
not very revealing.
> Another respondent had
> given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time
> repeating his good advice.
see this, well, too bad...
> However, that only answered part of your question.
> You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" I am so
> very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully.
> I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information
> that you requested.
cannot help you understand it." I do not know who that "we" is in your
statement, the fact remains that "we" did neither.
OK, I got the help I sought and a bit of entertainment at the same
time.
Cheers...
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 11, 2012, 4:18:04 PM2/11/12
to
On 2/11/2012 3:58 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>>
>>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
>>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>>
>> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
>> more Java.
>
> Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
> This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
> with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
> examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
> java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
> steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
> appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
> BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
> someone showed you the HOW aspect?
More times than I can count.
> On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>>
>>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
>>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>>
>> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
>> more Java.
>
> Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
> This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
> with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
> examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
> java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
> steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
> appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
> BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
> someone showed you the HOW aspect?
Arne
Arved Sandstrom
Feb 11, 2012, 5:13:28 PM2/11/12
to
On 12-02-11 04:58 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>>
>>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
>>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>>
>> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
>> more Java.
>
> Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
> This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
> with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
> examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
> java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
> steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
> appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
>
> BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
> someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
> occasions. Just as it did in this case... :-).
[ SNIP ]
> On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>>
>>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
>>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>>
>> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
>> more Java.
>
> Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
> This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
> with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
> examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
> java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
> steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
> appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
>
> BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
> someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
> occasions. Just as it did in this case... :-).
HOW without the WHY is often legit. In fact you may never need to know
the WHY. That's why we've got dozens upon dozens of domain specialists
in software development. Even an individual who seems to know how to do
everything by themselves - e.g. learns how to configure a new app server
(SSL, LDAP/S, database connections, JMS, clustering, security realms
etc) in a day or less - is probably just someone who has been in the
business long enough that they have become very good at locating,
reading and applying all the HOW material: instruction manuals, online
forums, READMEs and what have you. In a number of areas there may not be
that deep WHY knowledge...and often there doesn't need to be.
Even in teaching situations where the WHY is important, and has to be
communicated, there are many approaches to getting it across. Like you
suggested, with some people you do best in showing them a HOW, and the
they make good progress with the WHY. I know folks like this. Then there
are others, and I know some like this, who do best with WHY instruction,
and only then do they handle the HOW. Most people are a combination of
the two: I learn some things best with a HOW->WHY approach, other things
best with a WHY->HOW approach.
Many of us have built C/C++ executables or libraries from scratch, on
various operating systems. Maybe it's the ./configure, make, make
install sequence, or equivalents in the VS world, doesn't matter. The
point is that most of the time we're not building the executable or
shared library because we have any interest in the source of what we're
building, and often we don't even have the slightest interest in *what*
we're building. We simply need that executable or library on the path to
accomplishing something else productive, and that build process is the
only way to get the correct binary.
Under the circumstances, if halfway through "make" you get a complicated
compile or link error, do you really care about the WHY? Not bloody
likely. If you looked at the README and INSTALL, and they even had a
section specific to your OS there, and you followed the instructions,
that error is an unexpected nuisance. If you're like me you just want to
know HOW to fix it, and couldn't care less about WHY. Off to Google we
go with the exact error, often we're lucky and some dude has a patch
suggestion for obscure.cpp or someone else tells you to tweak a compile
switch for OS version 13.4.2 because the INSTALL docs were for version
13.4.0. And you do it mindlessly, your build and install succeeds, you
often never understood the WHY, and you don't care.
It's possible to get too hung up on the "give a man a fish, teach a man
to fish" idea. Frequently the most productive thing to do, for all
concerned, is just to give the man a fish.
In other spheres of human activity we already know to balance and ration
the HOW and WHY accordingly. We do that both in horizontal and vertical
silos. Why should it be any different in software development?
As far as any given responder is concerned, we all have our strengths.
None of us are good with all the domain areas, nor with all types of
questions. By and large Lew is among the more consistently good
responders in the NG, but he'll be a mismatch for some posters. We all
are from time to time. Best thing to do is suck it up, you'll eventually
get a suitable answer, like this time from Knute. Doesn't mean that the
next time you ask on this group that your best answer won't come from Lew.
AHS
--
...wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their
own government...
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1789
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 11, 2012, 5:58:03 PM2/11/12
to
On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>> shut.
>>
>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> "RTFM" type.
Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>> shut.
>>
>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> "RTFM" type.
If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
in the group.
Arne
Lew
Feb 11, 2012, 11:11:39 PM2/11/12
to
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> simplicity wrote:
personal, private little slave pool to offer answers to any questions you ask
and take abuse from you. This is a Usenet *discussion* group, and any help you
get is at the discretion and voluntary desire to help of the other
participants.
It is just too bad for you that you didn't find my answer helpful, but that is
not any kind of excuse for your rudeness and ingratitude and downright
snarkiness. You have no basis whatsoever for this arrogant attitude of
entitlement you evince, nor have I done anything so rude as to merit the kind
of personal attack in which you've engaged. The answers I gave are helpful to
you, should you get down off your high horse to do the kind of studying and
learning you so clearly need to do. As Arne said, this newsgroup will point
you to basic documentation if that exists for basic questions such as yours.
It is a personal failing on your part, and a darned shame, "simplicity", that
you cannot or will not observe the rudiments of basic human decency and
understand your proper place here. We are all equals here; none of us is your
subordinate, not that you should behave that way to subordinates either.
--
Lew
> simplicity wrote:
> > Lew wrote:
> >> simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
> >
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
>
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
> in the group.
"simplicity", you seriously need to get over yourself. This is not your
> >> simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
> >
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
>
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
> in the group.
personal, private little slave pool to offer answers to any questions you ask
and take abuse from you. This is a Usenet *discussion* group, and any help you
get is at the discretion and voluntary desire to help of the other
participants.
It is just too bad for you that you didn't find my answer helpful, but that is
not any kind of excuse for your rudeness and ingratitude and downright
snarkiness. You have no basis whatsoever for this arrogant attitude of
entitlement you evince, nor have I done anything so rude as to merit the kind
of personal attack in which you've engaged. The answers I gave are helpful to
you, should you get down off your high horse to do the kind of studying and
learning you so clearly need to do. As Arne said, this newsgroup will point
you to basic documentation if that exists for basic questions such as yours.
It is a personal failing on your part, and a darned shame, "simplicity", that
you cannot or will not observe the rudiments of basic human decency and
understand your proper place here. We are all equals here; none of us is your
subordinate, not that you should behave that way to subordinates either.
--
Lew
simplicity
Feb 12, 2012, 1:14:38 AM2/12/12
to
On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
>
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
>
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
thing you would be a history before the day's end.
Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
for?
> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
> in the group.
We progress when we can build from what our predecessors accomplished.
Starting from zero and going through the same over and over - sort of
what Lew's suggested in his reply, is counter to this philosophy. And
when I read his latest post it makes me think tat he still does not
get it.
simplicity
Feb 12, 2012, 1:21:58 AM2/12/12
to
On Feb 11, 3:13 pm, Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3min...@eastlink.ca>
wrote:
different to how I would handle this situation.
Case closed. I wish Lew the best. And if we all can reflect a bit for
the future from this thread... well, I will take a credit for
it :-):-).
wrote:
> As far as any given responder is concerned, we all have our strengths.
> None of us are good with all the domain areas, nor with all types of
> questions. By and large Lew is among the more consistently good
> responders in the NG, but he'll be a mismatch for some posters. We all
> are from time to time. Best thing to do is suck it up, you'll eventually
> get a suitable answer, like this time from Knute. Doesn't mean that the
> next time you ask on this group that your best answer won't come from Lew.
I get your point. I overreacted a bit, mostly because it was so
> None of us are good with all the domain areas, nor with all types of
> questions. By and large Lew is among the more consistently good
> responders in the NG, but he'll be a mismatch for some posters. We all
> are from time to time. Best thing to do is suck it up, you'll eventually
> get a suitable answer, like this time from Knute. Doesn't mean that the
> next time you ask on this group that your best answer won't come from Lew.
different to how I would handle this situation.
Case closed. I wish Lew the best. And if we all can reflect a bit for
the future from this thread... well, I will take a credit for
it :-):-).
Leif Roar Moldskred
Feb 12, 2012, 1:36:58 AM2/12/12
to
simplicity <stella...@live.ca> wrote:
> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
> for?
What an inane question.
> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
> for?
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 12, 2012, 9:37:36 AM2/12/12
to
On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>>>> shut.
>>
>>>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
No.
> On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>>>> shut.
>>
>>>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
The one asking the question would be history.
Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
people.
If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job - it is
the managers responsibility to get that person out.
>> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
>> in the group.
>
> Who are we to make ruling on "expectations in the group"?
BTW, I believe that it comp.lang.java.help has set the bar
significant lower than comp.lang.java.programmer about
what is OK to ask and what people should RTFM.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 12, 2012, 9:39:01 AM2/12/12
to
Arne
simplicity
Feb 12, 2012, 2:04:41 PM2/12/12
to
On Feb 12, 7:37 am, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
> > Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> > in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> > thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>
> No.
>
> The one asking the question would be history.
>
> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
> people.
In the "normal" development team some 60% of people are junior level.
> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
> > Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> > in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> > thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>
> No.
>
> The one asking the question would be history.
>
> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
> people.
I don't know what it may mean to you but for me "junior" means "do not
expect me to know everything".
> If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
> rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job
that.
> - it is
> the managers responsibility to get that person out.
minutes for that matter) of your time and expose that person to
disciplinary measures in the name of "doing that persons job"? Did I
get it correctly?
Why don't you just call things as they are? In this case it is that
usenet forums like this sometime attract people whose main objective
is to enhance their self perception, from the safety of their homes
and often anonymously.
Anyway, personally I think that the attitude which you seem to justify
and defend sucks. OTOH, I know that it is unlikely for it to change as
the result of this exchange. Hence, "over and out".
Arne Vajhøj
Feb 12, 2012, 2:34:02 PM2/12/12
to
On 2/12/2012 2:04 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:37 am, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
>>> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
>>> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
>>> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> The one asking the question would be history.
>>
>> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
>> people.
>
> In the "normal" development team some 60% of people are junior level.
> I don't know what it may mean to you but for me "junior" means "do not
> expect me to know everything".
I would definitely expect the 60% most junior of team to know
> On Feb 12, 7:37 am, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
>>> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
>>> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
>>> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> The one asking the question would be history.
>>
>> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
>> people.
>
> In the "normal" development team some 60% of people are junior level.
> I don't know what it may mean to you but for me "junior" means "do not
> expect me to know everything".
something.
But even if you were right then it is irrelevant.
We are not claiming that there are no groups with zero expectations - we
are just claiming that there are groups with some expectation.
To use the job analogy we are claiming that there are position where
skills are expected.
>> If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
>> rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job
>
> In the team environments it is.
benefiting anyone that the team covers for a team member
that are not capable of doing the job.
>> - it is
>> the managers responsibility to get that person out.
>
> Big words for a small problem. You will deny someone 30 second (or 10
> minutes for that matter) of your time and expose that person to
> disciplinary measures in the name of "doing that persons job"? Did I
> get it correctly?
then it is not one question but ten or twenty questions every day until
the manager finally figures it out and kick the person out anyway.
> Why don't you just call things as they are? In this case it is that
> usenet forums like this sometime attract people whose main objective
> is to enhance their self perception, from the safety of their homes
> and often anonymously.
I will assume you are talking about yourself.
Arne
Message has been deleted
Patricia Shanahan
Feb 14, 2012, 9:15:29 AM2/14/12
to
On 2/11/2012 10:36 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> simplicity<stella...@live.ca> wrote:
>
>> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
>> for?
>
> What an inane question.
>
The biggest relevant difference is that, in this forum, nobody is
> simplicity<stella...@live.ca> wrote:
>
>> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
>> for?
>
> What an inane question.
>
required to answer any given question.
If I don't feel like answering a particular question, I just hit "next",
and don't get into any trouble for doing so. Doing that to a question
from a colleague when working could cause problems.
Patricia
RedGrittyBrick
Feb 15, 2012, 5:38:02 AM2/15/12
to
On 12/02/2012 06:14, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
You mean:
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
Joe: Hey Sue what's Jeremy's phone number?
Sue: I can't recall it at the moment, it's in the company phone book,
the blue book over there by your elbow.
Boss: Sue, get your coat!
> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
> for?
Basically, my boss won't fire me for not helping some random stranger in
a different part of the planet (more likely the opposite).
I help random strangers because I enjoy helping people and sharing
ideas. If they make that unpleasant, I don't.
--
RGB
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