Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

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Jurgen Pitaske

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Sep 13, 2019, 12:08:59 PM9/13/19
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And why Hugh Aguilar is as frustrated as we have seen here
over the last 10 to 20 years.

He has been agressive for so many years here,
and at least we now know that

he has been fired from TESTRA after about one year there.

It seems he is intelligent,
so why has there not more been produced since then?

This is for others to discuss.
Beyond my knowledge regarding Forth Programming.

As I had stated here,
I would ask after so many accusations

TESTRA directly, as I know them, and

as they are always used as such a brilliant work experience.

The official answer from Tom Hart, their president,
who agreed to have his answer to me published on clf:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Juergen,

Nice to hear from you. I was going to answer your prior Email, but got busy.

Some answers regarding your questions:

Is it possible for you to tell
For how long he was an employee of Testra if he was

I did not go back and look at the payroll records,
but to my recollection it was on the order of a year or so.

Or if he was just a contractor/consultant

Maybe at the beginning.

How long this working relationship lasted

As I stated, maybe a year or so.

Why your relationship ceased,

He was difficult to work with.
He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
but if it was a team effort, forget it.

I let him go myself,
after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
He would not take any direction.
I scrapped the project.

and what he really achieved at TESTRA??

He wrote our Forth compiler for the processor
that we implemented in a Lattice PLD.

He did a good job on it,
we are still using it with a few bug fixes and minor modifications.

He had nothing to do with the processor itself,
that was all designed by John Hart and Steve Brault.

The PLD version was based upon our original Forth Engine done long before we ever ran across Hugh.

In summary,

Hugh is very intelligent, very knowledgeable about Forth,
but is not really a team player.

Sounds like the Forth community has some problems with non team players.

You can quote me, but it has to be all or none of the above!


Thomas W. Hart, Jr.
President
Testra Corporation
1201 N Stadem Drive
Tempe AZ 85281
tom...@testra.com
www.testra.com
(480)560-6141 cell
(480)966-8428 office
(480)966-7215 fax


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

and for completeness the email I had sent to TESTRA and I had posted here somewhere before I had sent it:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/9IHvRJmMn20

Dear Tom,

We have not spoken for a while.
This email is not really regarding business now, but trying to put the history right.
Regarding Testra and regarding Hugh Aguilar.

Hugh Aguilar basically says for years here on clf. that he has basically invented the MFX processor of Testra,
And the software that basically runs the company TESTRA.

I do not mind if this were true, but I really doubt it,
as now – over probably 10 or 20 years -
Not much has been published/ posted by him as far as I have seen;

– rather than these insults and telling other people are liars and worse
– actually everybody who has a different opinion.

According to his info he gave here,
he now drives taxis or tractors for a living.
No reference to any programming.

See his last post from Comp Lang Forth; this triggered this email to Testra:

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 10:11:21 AM UTC-7, Anton Ertl wrote:
> EuroForth 2019 will be held in Hamburg, Germany on September 13-15.
>
> The deadline for the academic stream (refereed) papers is June 30. So
> now is the time to write up your research to have it ready by the
> deadline. For industrial (non-refereed) papers the deadline is August
> 31.
I have been reading some "inspiring Mark Twain quotes on life"
http://www.quoteambition.com/inspiring-mark-twain-quotes-life/

This quote should be very inspiring for the EuroForth writers:
“Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it.”

Anton Ertl is the referee for the "academic" papers.
He and Bernd Paysan wrote a refereed paper for EuroForth-2018
that had no purpose except to attack the rquotations.
They lied when they said:
"the higher-order word that calls the rquotation must not use locals."

AFAIK, Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan are lying about the rquotations
as a service to Stephen Pelc who will later "invent" rquotations
or something similar as a proprietary VFX feature
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan don't believe that the Forthers
are worthy of being given rquotations for free, but instead believe
that Forthers must pay Stephen Pelc for this feature.

> The call for papers including submission instructions can be found on
> <http://www.euroforth.org/ef19/cfp.html>.
The actual "submission instructions" EuroForth aspirants need,
are obtained by getting on your knees and asking Stephen Pelc.
You may be told to attack my code by lying about it.
You may be told to not invent useful Forth features that
Stephen Pelc plans on inventing later as proprietary VFX features.
You may be told to not write any working Forth code, but instead
to submit vague dreams about what it would be like to write
working Forth code (as Peter Knaggs and Andrew Haley did).

Ultimately, everybody who goes to EuroForth will dishonor themselves
with blatant lying and purposeful ignorance.


Such and worse posts come on a daily / weekly basis as you can verify yourself.
I have been a target myself as well.

Is it possible for you to tell
For how long he was an employee of Testra if he was
Or if he was just a contractor/consultant
How long this working relationship lasted
Why your relationship ceased,
and what he really achieved at TESTRA??



Some partial answers would be very helpful already.

Just to make it clear:
I have no business relationship with MPE anymore so this is a purely private activity.

But as it makes me sick how he behaves on clf,

It was worth at least trying to find out and write this email,

to find out
if what he states about your relationship is true and his software runs or did run TESTRA
or if this can be put right.

This email sent to you has been published as is on clf as well.

Please mark in your answer to me,
which part of your answer I can quote.

Thank you very much in advance.

Kind regards
Juergen

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now the facts about his history are clearer.

Rick C

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Sep 13, 2019, 12:52:06 PM9/13/19
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On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:08:59 PM UTC-4, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:

<---snip--->

> Now the facts about his history are clearer.

I don't think there was anything there we didn't already know. I can only think your posting of this exchange was a form of retribution which says much more about who you are than it did Hugh.

Hugh has his problems which border on mental illness. I blame Forth for bringing out the worst in people like Hugh, Peter Forsau and yourself.

Do you have these same issues in other areas?

--

Rick C.

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Jurgen Pitaske

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Sep 13, 2019, 1:38:44 PM9/13/19
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What you know and do not know I do not care about - and who does?

Actually, the only mental illnesses and their impersonments and reactions I have met until now are
Hugh
Forsau and
Rick C.

Gavino is/was soft in comparison to you lot.

The rest of the world as I know it is fine
- which does not exclude that the same happens elsewhere I do not know of.

I do like your arrogance though
- why do you expect that this was for you?

There are probably hundreds or thousands of Forthers in the world who do not understand what is happening in this group.

Now they have the context and from the Horses Mouth.
And they will have this here for the many years to come.

Rick C

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Sep 13, 2019, 2:30:30 PM9/13/19
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And they all see you are as disruptive as the worst of them, even starting threads to "set the record straight". In this regard, you are very much like Hugh and Peter Forsau.

--

Rick C.

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dxforth

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Sep 13, 2019, 10:37:12 PM9/13/19
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On Saturday, 14 September 2019 02:52:06 UTC+10, Rick C wrote:
> ...
> I blame Forth for bringing out the worst […]

You've noticed that :)

Chuck described Forth as 'an amplifier' - a double-edged sword
if ever there was. Given Forth's scope for extension and the
means to do so who has resisted the temptation to 'play God'
deciding what is good for all. Forth doesn't exactly encourage
'team players'. OTOH given enough time - who knows - it may
also knock off the hard edges and corners of the stony Gods it
so readily produces.

Rick C

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Sep 14, 2019, 12:07:24 AM9/14/19
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Actually, I should not have said it that way. Forth doesn't impact anyone's behavior. But the fact that it is so far from the mainstream, by definition it is going to attract those who think along the periphery of computer programming. Those people are likely to be thinking along the periphery in other areas as well.

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Rick C.

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Melzzzzz

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Sep 14, 2019, 12:11:39 AM9/14/19
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On 2019-09-13, Jurgen Pitaske <jpit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why your relationship ceased,
>
> He was difficult to work with.

Social skills are perhaps more important then
anything else...


--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala

hughag...@gmail.com

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Sep 14, 2019, 12:32:18 AM9/14/19
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Juergen Pintaske is fabricating this.

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> ...
> Is it possible for you to tell
> For how long he was an employee of Testra if he was
>
> I did not go back and look at the payroll records,
> but to my recollection it was on the order of a year or so.
>
> Or if he was just a contractor/consultant
>
> Maybe at the beginning.

I worked for Testra on two different occasions.
The first time was when I wrote MFX.
I then left and worked as an IBM370 assembly-language programmer
for 18 months. I also worked in cabinet-making for a while.
I then returned to Testra and wrote DXF2G which converted AutoCAD .dxf
files into CNC gcode programs for the laser etcher.

Juergen is vague about this because he is just making this stuff up.
Tom and John Hart do have those records readily available.
They wouldn't be so vague and inaccurate answering a direct question.

I left Testra because the money was too low,
and they weren't providing me with health insurance although
their other employee got health insurance.
It was a dead-end job --- I knew that the motion-control board
would be the only application ever for the MiniForth, and I wasn't
involved in the motion-control stuff, so there was no point in staying.
At the time (late 1990s) both Tom and John Hart were about 60 years old,
which is retirement age. There weren't going to be any future projects.

I remember John Hart telling me:
"You would be a lot more valuable if you could build and test boards."
This seemed unfair --- I never claimed to be a hardware technician ---
I signed on as a programmer, not a soldering-iron jockey.

> Why your relationship ceased,
>
> He was difficult to work with.
> He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
> but if it was a team effort, forget it.
>
> I let him go myself,
> after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
> He would not take any direction.
> I scrapped the project.

I never heard of HP-GL prior to seeing it now in Juergen's post.
I looked it up this morning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-GL
This is apparently a graphics language for plotters.
Testra had no involvement in building plotters; they didn't even own one.
It is possible that Testra got involved in plotters after I left
(plotters are an obvious application for their motion-control board),
but I don't know anything about this. I have never worked with plotters.
Juergen got his facts tangled up --- most likely, he doesn't know the
difference between a pen-plotter and a CNC milling-machine or laser-etcher.

Testra was (still is) a very small company. There was no team programming.
There was only one other employee; he lived in Tucson and I never met him.
He was responsible for porting the motion-control program over from the
Dallas 80c320 board to the MiniForth board. He wrote this in MFX.
I never saw the source-code for the motion-control board and had no
involvement in that --- I just wrote MFX --- the motion-control program
is the only program ever written in MFX and I wasn't involved.
I occasionally got emails from that guy requesting features in MFX,
but for the most part MFX just had to be similar enough to Forth-83
to allow porting the motion-control program with minimal fuss.
I remember that he was ticked off because I took too long to write
the 16-bit addition function (because I didn't know how), and then
he wrote it himself --- that is the only complaint I recall from him.

> Sounds like the Forth community has some problems with non team players.

This is obviously Juergen Pintaske's words, not Tom or John Hart's words.

* Tom and John Hart are not members of the so-called: "Forth community."
They did not build and sell an experimenters' board for the MiniForth,
despite my encouraging them to do so. Tom Hart explained:
"Hobbyists require too much support and they don't have any money."
They had sold their bit-slice Forth-engine experimenters' board in
"Forth Dimensions," but that was about decade prior to me working for them.
Most likely this involved too much support and not enough money.
I might have stuck with Testra if they had done this, because I like
hobbyists, but all they cared about was selling motion-control boards.

* They did not get involved in Elizabeth Rather's ANS-Forth "Standard."

* They are not involved in Stephen Pelc's Forth-200x "Standard."

It is Juergen Pintaske who worries about the "Forth community."
Tom and John Hart worry about a lot of things (mostly they worry about
keeping Testra afloat by selling a stream of motion-control boards),
but the "Forth community" is not something they give a hoot in Hell for.
This is why they don't post on c.l.f. --- they don't care about you.

BTW: For decades, there was no mention at all of the MiniForth/RACE
on the SVFIG website. Just today I discovered that Testra has an entry:
http://www.forth.org/cores.html
I thought Testra had been banned from that website, but apparently not.

dxforth

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Sep 14, 2019, 2:57:54 AM9/14/19
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On Saturday, 14 September 2019 14:32:18 UTC+10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> Tom and John Hart do have those records readily available.
> They wouldn't be so vague and inaccurate answering a direct question.

I'm puzzled why they're giving out personal information to third parties
with no apparent legal right to know.

Ilya Tarasov

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Sep 14, 2019, 11:44:10 AM9/14/19
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> And why Hugh Aguilar is as frustrated as we have seen here
> over the last 10 to 20 years.

There are many people in the world with their own characters, skills, addictions etc. I wonder why do you want to 'reveal' Hugh's... defects? Or what is your goal? Hugh is an adult man and certainly responsible for what he doing. I think many of those who contact him are able to make his own opinion about Hugh... and you. Intresting, your post bring me more information about YOU what about Hugh.

A phrase I can support (from great Soviet actress Faina Ranevskaya).
'It is better to be a good person, 'swearing obscene' than a quiet, well-educated stinker'. So I prefer to deal with Hugh as long as he keeping honesty in his word than perform unfair intrigues around scrap of brilliant era of Forth.

Rick C

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Sep 14, 2019, 11:52:11 AM9/14/19
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Can I ask if you write in English or your native tongue and then translate it? I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm asking an honest question. Sometimes the words you choose seem unusual and I'm not sure of the meaning.

You have likely heard the (rather old) story of the new computer translator. In a public exhibition someone suggested to translate "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" from English to Russian and back. It came out, "The vodka is good, but the meet is rotten".

I don't get what you mean by, "around scrap of brilliant era of Forth".

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
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hughag...@gmail.com

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Sep 14, 2019, 4:09:34 PM9/14/19
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They don't give out personal information to third parties.
John Hart is careful about this --- I assume Tom Hart is too.

I remember one time a hiring manager called John Hart about me,
and she had her phone on speaker so I could listen in.
John Hart provided the dates that I was employed, and he said:
"Not eligible for rehire."
He did not provide any colorful commentary such as:
"He was difficult to work with. ...if it was a team effort, forget it."
Saying that I'm ineligible for rehire is more than adequate to kill
my chance of getting hired at the job I was applying for.

Juergen Pintaske is totally faking this stuff.
The fact that he said HP-GL rather than CNC gcode is a dead giveaway.
The languages are somewhat similar in that they both involve moving
an instrument (colored-pen, milling-tool or laser-mirror) over a surface,
but they are different languages. Most likely Juergen doesn't know
that they are different. I didn't know that either --- I always assumed
that plotters used CNC gcode --- now, thanks to Wikipedia, I have learned
that plotters use HP-GL (maybe only Hewlett-Packard plotters though).

Also, he is obviously faking it because his emphasis on me being a
"non team player" is totally out of character for Tom or John Hart.
They aren't team players either --- they are not in the ANS-Forth cult.
For them to criticize me for not being a team player is about as
likely as Donald Trump criticizing me for having a bad haircut.
That would really be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't think that Tom or John Hart want to drive a stake through my heart
to prevent me from rising again (like in the book: "Salem's Lot").
I've talked to them since that time and they floated the idea that
I could work with them again --- most likely, because they haven't been
able to find anybody who could figure out the MFX assembly-language
(the assembly-language is very difficult to use because there are no
branch or jump instructions other than the NXT instruction).
I wasn't interested --- as I said, it is dead-end job.
It is a bad idea to become an expert in something obscure because
listing it as a reference doesn't help in obtaining employment in a
normal line of work, such as C programming or ditch-digging.

As a final note, let me say that Ilya Tarasov is the only person on
c.l.f. who can understand why the MiniForth lacked branch or jump
instructions. I have never met anybody else who knew anything about
VLIW processors (although many who claim to be big experts).

Robert L.

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Sep 14, 2019, 4:20:36 PM9/14/19
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On 9/13/2019, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:

> a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.

This may be a good programming puzzle.

Can someone give the specifications? (Start a new thread.)

hughag...@gmail.com

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Sep 14, 2019, 4:21:24 PM9/14/19
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On Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 8:52:11 AM UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
> On Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 11:44:10 AM UTC-4, Ilya Tarasov wrote:

> > A phrase I can support (from great Soviet actress Faina Ranevskaya).
> > 'It is better to be a good person, 'swearing obscene' than a
> > quiet, well-educated stinker'. So I prefer to deal with Hugh
> > as long as he keeping honesty in his word than perform
> > unfair intrigues around scrap of brilliant era of Forth.
>
> Can I ask if you write in English or your native tongue
> and then translate it? I'm not trying to be insulting,
> I'm asking an honest question. Sometimes the words you choose
> seem unusual and I'm not sure of the meaning.
> ...
> I don't get what you mean by,
> "around scrap of brilliant era of Forth".

This is not a language problem --- you're just a dummkoph.

The development of the MiniForth (1994-1995) was a pretty
brilliant era of Forth. I'm not aware of anybody else who
has succeeded in getting a processor to run on the
Lattice 1048isp PLD --- maybe a toy processor that had no
practical use --- the MiniForth was not a toy though; it
provided better performance and lower cost than the MC68000
board that the competitor in the laser-etching biz was using.

The MiniForth was really the last hurrah of Forth,
and then Forth died --- ANS-Forth put a stake through the
heart of Forth --- Forth is unlikely to ever rise again.

On the subject of fakes --- I think that you are faking your
soft-core expertise. I will leave it to Ilya to comment on that
though, as he knows more about the subject than I do.

hughag...@gmail.com

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Sep 15, 2019, 9:09:05 PM9/15/19
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I don't actually know anything about HP-GL.
I only just read about HP-GL on Wikipedia a few days ago.

I did write a program at Testra to convert AutoCAD .dxf files into
CNC gcode --- the program was called DXF2G.
This is too complicated to qualify as a "programming puzzle."

I remember that the AutoCAD documentation was incorrect in some aspects
and so I had to figure out the .dxf format through examination.
Also, .dxf files support crude subroutines for common images,
and gcode also supports crude subroutines similarly, but I didn't
support subroutines at all because subroutines are rarely used.
I could have supported subroutines if this had become an issue.

After I figured out the .dxf format, the program to convert into
gcode was pretty easy and straightforward. I would expect that
converting into HP-GL would be similarly easy. My slide-rule
image generator produces both gcode and PostScript. This is easy.

What made DXF2G difficult was the requirement that when
two line segments' end points have a gap between them of 5 mils
or less, the line segments should be extended so the lines touch.
This allows the CNC machine to just do a series of GO1 instructions,
and not have them punctuated with tiny little G00 empty segments.
This was not too difficult either. I quickly got this working,
not just for straight line-segments (G01) but also for curved
line segments (G02 and G03). This is just trigonometry.

The real difficulty was that the .dxf data was basically garbage.
I think the image was scanned in from a pencil drawing on paper with
over-great resolution and then somehow converted into a .dxf file.
Quite a lot of line-segments were less than 5 mils in length and
were randomly oriented. There were thousands of these tiny little
line-segments. The image, when viewed from a distance, appeared to
be a single image corresponding to the pencil drawing.
In actuality, it was thousands of tiny little squiggles,
most of which intersected each other, sometimes multiple times.

The obvious solution would be to just round off all the data in the
.dxf file to 5 mils resolution, and then discard resulting duplicates.
This doesn't actually work though.
The resulting gcode etching comes out blocky. It looks awful,
similar to graphics images on a Commodore C64 screen.
All artistic nuance is lost!

If I were writing such a program today, I would round-off to 5 mils
as described above, but then I would do a polynomial curve-fit
over the resulting points to get rid of the blocky problem.
Splines would be an even better solution, although I didn't know
about splines then (and I still don't know anything about the subject).
I'm good at high-school analytic-trigonometry, but I'm not a mathematician.
I didn't do any kind of curve-fitting at the time.
My program took over 30 minutes to run on as it was.
This was using 32-bit UR/Forth on a Pentium with a DOS-extender.
Too much floating point arithmetic would have killed the speed.
What I did was apply a set of rules for simplifying the tiny squiggles,
and then do the line-extension or curve-extension to connect them together.
This worked.
I can't guarantee that it would always work --- I think it is
possible to confuse the rules by writing a pathological .dxf file.
It did work for the customer-provided .dxf file though. Yay!

That whole program became very complicated, although initially it seemed
like it would be easy. It was something of a fool's errand,
because the data was basically garbage --- computers don't come with
mind-reading ability --- there is no way for my program to know
what the artist with the pencil and paper intended.
The image was a drawing of a coyote. A human viewing the result can say:
"That does [or does not] look like a coyote."
Unfortunately, computers don't know what coyotes look like,
so it is difficult for the program to know if the result is good or not.

hughag...@gmail.com

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Sep 16, 2019, 12:17:35 PM9/16/19
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On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 6:09:05 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> What I did was apply a set of rules for simplifying the tiny squiggles,
> and then do the line-extension or curve-extension to connect them together.
> This worked.

I was thinking about this last night and I recalled that I did not do
a "line extension" in the sense of just extending the two line segments
outward until they meet.

What I did was to always connect the two line segments with a
partial circle (a G02 or G03 instruction). I would calculate where
the center point of this circle had to be so that the partial circle
would be tangent to both line segments. This was true whether the
line-segments were straight (G01) or if they were partial circles
(G02 or G03).

This calculation was not too difficult. It was just trigonometry.
It did involve several floating-point calculations though,
and on the Pentium this was slow. IIRC, the Pentium had the x87
built-in (the 80486 had an external 80487) --- this helped the
speed, but floating-point was still a bottleneck.

I remember that I had an old 80486 at home (given to me by Testra),
but at work I had a Pentium on my desk. I remember that I learned
about the U and V pipes in the Pentium from Abrash's book, so I
knew about "riscifying" assembly-language. This means, arranging the code
sothat the V pipe would be executing concurrently as much as possible.
This was done by staggering the V-pipable instructions so they
wouldn't jam up. There is actually a lot of similarity between
riscifying Pentium code and rearranging MiniForth code, except that
for the MiniForth the out-of-order arrangement was done at
compile-time by my assembler, and in the Pentium it was done at
run-time by the processor on the fly. Also, the MiniForth opcode
had 5 fields, so there were up to 5 instructions executing concurrently,
whereas the Pentium had only the U and V pipes so only 2 instructions
could execute concurrently. MiniForth assembly-language was about
an order of magnitude more difficult than Pentium assembly-language!

Rick C

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Sep 16, 2019, 9:50:49 PM9/16/19
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I worked with B-splines a bit in college. I want to say they are used when you want not only line segments that have continuously changing slopes, but continuous changes in curvature between segments. It's one of those things that wouldn't seem to make a difference, but does to the eye.

I don't recall any of the math, but that's just a matter of reading some references.

I just looked up some of this and it's pretty interesting on its own.


> I'm good at high-school analytic-trigonometry, but I'm not a mathematician.
> I didn't do any kind of curve-fitting at the time.
> My program took over 30 minutes to run on as it was.
> This was using 32-bit UR/Forth on a Pentium with a DOS-extender.
> Too much floating point arithmetic would have killed the speed.
> What I did was apply a set of rules for simplifying the tiny squiggles,
> and then do the line-extension or curve-extension to connect them together.
> This worked.
> I can't guarantee that it would always work --- I think it is
> possible to confuse the rules by writing a pathological .dxf file.
> It did work for the customer-provided .dxf file though. Yay!
>
> That whole program became very complicated, although initially it seemed
> like it would be easy. It was something of a fool's errand,
> because the data was basically garbage --- computers don't come with
> mind-reading ability --- there is no way for my program to know
> what the artist with the pencil and paper intended.
> The image was a drawing of a coyote. A human viewing the result can say:
> "That does [or does not] look like a coyote."
> Unfortunately, computers don't know what coyotes look like,
> so it is difficult for the program to know if the result is good or not.

Do you know how the drawing was turned into a DXF file? Was that the output of a drawing program where the image was created, or did they start with an image of a paper drawing and scan it into a DXF file? It just seems like DXF is the wrong format, but if they wanted to carve it into metal or wood with a CNC machine, I guess I get it.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C

unread,
Sep 16, 2019, 10:06:06 PM9/16/19
to
On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 12:17:35 PM UTC-4, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 6:09:05 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > What I did was apply a set of rules for simplifying the tiny squiggles,
> > and then do the line-extension or curve-extension to connect them together.
> > This worked.
>
> I was thinking about this last night and I recalled that I did not do
> a "line extension" in the sense of just extending the two line segments
> outward until they meet.
>
> What I did was to always connect the two line segments with a
> partial circle (a G02 or G03 instruction). I would calculate where
> the center point of this circle had to be so that the partial circle
> would be tangent to both line segments. This was true whether the
> line-segments were straight (G01) or if they were partial circles
> (G02 or G03).
>
> This calculation was not too difficult. It was just trigonometry.
> It did involve several floating-point calculations though,
> and on the Pentium this was slow. IIRC, the Pentium had the x87
> built-in (the 80486 had an external 80487) --- this helped the
> speed, but floating-point was still a bottleneck.

Not even trig really, geometry. The end of each line segment, even if it is a curve segment, has a slope. Define the lines perpendicular to those line segment ends and find the point of intersection. That's the center of the curve you need to smoothly connect the line segments.

I recall taking a surveying class in Community College where they brought in a member of the state board for licensing surveyors. He was an older guy who wanted to impress the young bucks that this stuff was not so simple.

The problem he presented was plotting an arc of a circle through three points. I recalled my geometry and raised my hand. The guy called on me and I described it using geometry terms, "Connect the points with line segments, draw the perpendicular bisectors and look for the intersection". The guy hesitated for a couple of seconds and said, "You are absolutely right!" What I didn't realize until some time later was that the old gent had no idea what I had actually said because I didn't use his language!!! He wasn't going to let the young bucks in the room know he didn't understand. Didn't get me any extra credit in the class though. This class was more a class in politics since the instructor was a surveyor and was mainly teaching it so he could train his own employees and get paid for it!!! So no one other than "his" guys got time on the transit, etc.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 16, 2019, 10:46:25 PM9/16/19
to
Well, all of this talk about Testra inspired me to drive over there.
I spoke to both Tom and John Hart.

On Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:09:34 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 11:57:54 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
> > On Saturday, 14 September 2019 14:32:18 UTC+10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Tom and John Hart do have those records readily available.
> > > They wouldn't be so vague and inaccurate answering a direct question.
> >
> > I'm puzzled why they're giving out personal information to third parties
> > with no apparent legal right to know.
>
> They don't give out personal information to third parties.
> John Hart is careful about this --- I assume Tom Hart is too.
>
> I remember one time a hiring manager called John Hart about me,
> and she had her phone on speaker so I could listen in.
> John Hart provided the dates that I was employed, and he said:
> "Not eligible for rehire."

John Hart informed me that he never said any such thing.
Most likely this was Tom Hart on the phone.

> Juergen Pintaske is totally faking this stuff.
> The fact that he said HP-GL rather than CNC gcode is a dead giveaway.
> The languages are somewhat similar in that they both involve moving
> an instrument (colored-pen, milling-tool or laser-mirror) over a surface,
> but they are different languages.

Tom Hart's memory is very fuzzy.
It was Tom Hart, not Juergen Pintaske, who didn't remember that my
program was for CNC gcode, not HP-GL. I still don't know where
the topic of HP-GL comes from --- I'm guessing that plotters
and HP-GL are something that Testra got into after I left.

When I brought up the topic of the MiniForth processor,
Tom Hart asked: "What is the MiniForth?"
I responded: "You know, the processor! I wrote MFX,
which means: 'MiniForth X-compiler.'"
Tom Hart has no recollection of the MiniForth! For him, "the processor"
refers to the RACE that was developed about one decade after I left
Testra. What happened is that the MiniForth was developed in 1994-1995
and was built on the Lattice isp1048 PLD (now obsolete). Early in the
21st century the RACE was developed which was written in VHDL for
a Lattice FPGA. The RACE is, afaik, compatible with the MiniForth,
so MiniForth programs run on the RACE without recompilation, but can be
an order of magnitude faster (chips have advanced a lot in two decades).

Tom Hart was quite angry with me! :-(
He said: "I've been told that you are claiming to have designed
the processor, but that is really not true! You just wrote the compiler."
I responded: "You've been told? Don't believe everything that you're told!"
I have never claimed that I designed the MiniForth or the RACE hardware.
Considering that I don't know LDL, VHDL or Verilog, a claim such as that
would be a preposterous lie that would quickly be revealed to be untrue.
All that I have ever claimed was that I wrote MFX, which is true.
MFX consisted of the assembler, the simulator and the Forth compiler.

John Hart (the younger brother) had a much clearer memory of the
MiniForth and that brilliant era of Forth. He was also much more friendly.
He said that he gave no credence to what Juergen told him, that I was
telling lies about Testra and "bad-mouthing" Testra on comp.lang.forth..
He never visits comp.lang.forth though, and has no plans of doing so.
He said that comp.lang.forth is a huge waste of time --- he seemed
to be unimpressed that I'm such a fool as to waste my time with c.l.f..

He is still actively developing the RACE and will soon release a
32-bit version that is much more powerful. He has switched from
VHDL to Verilog. I think he also has (or intends to) drop Lattice
and switch to Altera or Xilinx (I was unclear on this though).
He showed me a tiny little motion-control board (13 axis, IIRC)
that cost only a few dollars to make, but had significantly more memory
and more speed than the previous board that was large and expensive.

I brought up this comment:
"Sounds like the Forth community has some problems with non team players."
John Hart thought that was pretty funny!
He is aware that he is not a "team player" either, and hasn't been for
quite some time. ;-) I told him that Stephen Pelc was crippling Forth-200x
so that all the useful features would be proprietary to MPE, and that
common Forth programmers such as himself or myself would be either
stuck with Forth-200x as perpetual students, or would have to pay for VFX.
He said: "It was the same with ANS-Forth."
I told him about how SwiftForth's SWITCH[ does a linear search and
he did a forehead-palm --- definitely an OMG! moment --- he has written
software to do fast simulation of his micro-processors.
I told him that I could defeat Forth-200x by writing Forth code that works,
while the Forth-200x committee are unable to write code that works and/or they
lie about my code (rquotations) saying that it doesn't work.
He thought that I was being utterly foolish --- ultimately, Forth-200x is
the Forth Standard, and I am a VCIW (Voice Crying In the Wilderness).
Those are my words, not his, but that was the gist of what he said
(that I'm a fool to be on c.l.f., and that I'm a fool to give away software
for free because the Forth-200x committee will just continue to say that
I'm not a Forth programmer and claim that they set the Standard for Forth).

I don't know how old these guys are.
I said earlier in this thread that they were 60 in 1994, but that was
almost certainly not true. Seeing them now, they seem to be
in their seventies, which would make them about 50 in 1994.
Testra is still active, with a new 32-bit RACE processor coming out.
The company may get sold in a few years though.

dxforth

unread,
Sep 17, 2019, 3:11:34 AM9/17/19
to
On Tuesday, 17 September 2019 12:46:25 UTC+10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> I told him that Stephen Pelc was crippling Forth-200x
> so that all the useful features would be proprietary to MPE, and that
> common Forth programmers such as himself or myself would be either
> stuck with Forth-200x as perpetual students, or would have to pay for VFX.

Not sure I believe that. But if somebody beats you to the punch,
whose fault is that?

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 18, 2019, 1:58:22 AM9/18/19
to
As often happens, I don't know what you are talking about.
Who beat who to what punch?

I think Stephen Pelc wanted the fake quotations to get written in stone
in the Forth-200x Standard first, and only later on he would invent
rquotations or something similar as a proprietary closed-source
feature of VFX. He expectation was that he could wait as long as it
took to get the fake quotations into Forth-200x (it can take quite
a while to go from RfD to CfV to Standard due to the tedious
pseudo-intellectual debates that drag on) --- there was no hurry
because none of the "Forth community team players" were going to
invent rquotations or anything similar in the meantime.

I beat Stephen Pelc to the punch by implementing rquotations in 2016.
Woo hoo! Stephen Pelc didn't actually care though. The Forth-200x
committee just continued to say that rquotations don't exist and
are impossible. At EuroForth-2018 Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan
wrote their paper with the arrogant title: "Closures, the Forth Way."
Their paper had no purpose except to insult the rquotations as being
a "simple quotation-like implementation" and to blatantly lie
about the rquotation features, saying:
"the higher-order word that calls the rquotation must not use locals."
------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, in classical Forth fashion, some users explored the idea
of what outer-locals accesses can be performed with minimal effort.
In particular, Usenet user “humptydumpty” introduced rquotations, a
simple quotation-like implementation that uses return-address manipulation.
The Forth system does not know about these rquotations and therefore
treats any locals accessed inside rquotations as if they were
accessed outside. In the case of Gforth (as currently implemented)
this works as long as the locals stack is not changed in the
meantime; e.g., the higher-order word that calls the rquotation
must not use locals. There is no easy way to see whether this restriction
has been met; this is also classical Forth style, but definitely not
user-friendly. Static analysis could be used to find out in many cases
whether the restriction has been met, but that would probably require
more effort than implementing the approach presented in this paper,
while not providing as much functionality.
------------------------------------------------------------

This was in 2018, and I had posted working rquotation code in July 2016.
So, Stephen Pelc doesn't care if people beat him to the punch
by writing working Forth code that does what he says is impossible.
The Forth-200x committee just continues to say that it is impossible.
They continue two years later --- so there is no indication that they
will ever stop lying --- the fake quotations are in Forth-200x now ---
the committee is past the rubicon, so they can't turn back now and admit
that my code works, but they have to continue lying about it forever.

This is why I call the Forth-200x committee: "the Committee of Can't."
They say that Forth programming is impossible, and can't be done.
They never give up!
They continue to say that Forth programming is impossible indefinitely
(for years) after working Forth code has been shown to them publicly.

This is my code that works
(written two days after HumptyDumpty posted his prototype code):
-----------------------------------------------------------------
\ ******
\ ****** R[ ]R quotations.
\ ****** https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/3LSqmBIZuzY
\ ****** This is highly non-standard! ANS-Forth (section 3.2.3.3.) says:
\ ****** A program shall not access values on the return stack (using R@, R>, 2R@ or 2R>) that it did not place there using >R or 2>R;
\ ******

\ In the stack-picture comments, RQ is a continuation (a vector to a quotation).

\ HumptyDumpty invented rquotations --- this was very good programming --- I hadn't thought of it.
\ What I call REX0 he called RCALL --- also, he didn't have REX which I invented (this only works in VFX and SwiftForth).
\ If only REX0 is used, rquotations can be used under any ANS-Forth system (theoretically non-standard though).
\ REX is a lot more useful though because the HOF almost always needs to have locals.

\ My improved version for VFX or SwiftForth should be easy to port to other ANS-Forth systems --- any Forth system with locals.
\ Some assembly-language is required, but it is pretty straight forward.

VFX? SwiftForth? or [if]

: rexit ( -- ) rdrop ;
: (r:) ( -- rq ) r@ 5 + ; \ 5 is the size of a JMP instruction in 32-bit x86
: r[ ( -- rq ) postpone (r:) postpone ahead ; immediate
: ]r ( -- ) postpone rexit postpone then ; immediate

: rex0 ( rq -- ) >r ; \ requires the HOF to not have locals

\ REX0 is the same as EXECUTE
\ We don't use EXECUTE however because in the other version (not VFX or SwiftForth) REX0 is different.

VFX? [if]

code rex ( rq -- ) \ requires the HOF to have locals
push edi \ this is the HOF's LF which won't be used by the quotation
mov edi, 0 [edi] \ this is the parent's LF which will be used by the quotation
mov eax, ebx
mov ebx, 0 [ebp] lea ebp, w [ebp]
call eax
pop edi \ restore HOF's LF
next, end-code

[then]

SwiftForth? [if]

156 constant lf-offset \ this is the offset for the local-frame in the user-variables (ESI is the user-variable base)

code rex ( rq -- ) \ requires the HOF to have locals
lf-offset [esi] edx mov
edx push \ this is the HOF's LF which won't be used by the quotation
-4 [edx] eax mov \ this is the old ESP
0 [eax] eax mov \ this is the parent's LF which will be used by the quotation
eax lf-offset [esi] mov
ebx eax mov [drop]
eax call
lf-offset [esi] pop \ restore HOF's LF
ret end-code

[then]

[else] \ this was written by HumptyDumpty and works on gForth, SwiftForth and VFX

: rexit ( -- ) RDROP ;
: (r:) ( -- rq ) R@ false ;
: r[ ( -- rq ) postpone (r:) postpone IF ; immediate
: ]r ( -- ) postpone REXIT postpone THEN ; immediate

: rex0 ( rq -- ) >R true ; \ requires the HOF to not have locals

\ REX is not supported in HumptyDumpty's code.

[then]

\ REX is used in a HOF that has local variables.
\ REX0 is used in a HOF that does not have local variables.
\ REX0 is also used in the parent function itself, when there is no HOF used.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

dxforth

unread,
Sep 18, 2019, 4:06:21 AM9/18/19
to
On Wednesday, 18 September 2019 15:58:22 UTC+10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 12:11:34 AM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 17 September 2019 12:46:25 UTC+10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ...
> > > I told him that Stephen Pelc was crippling Forth-200x
> > > so that all the useful features would be proprietary to MPE, and that
> > > common Forth programmers such as himself or myself would be either
> > > stuck with Forth-200x as perpetual students, or would have to pay for VFX.
> >
> > Not sure I believe that. But if somebody beats you to the punch,
> > whose fault is that?
>
> As often happens, I don't know what you are talking about.
> Who beat who to what punch?
>
> I think Stephen Pelc wanted the fake quotations to get written in stone
> in the Forth-200x Standard first, and only later on he would invent
> rquotations or something similar as a proprietary closed-source
> feature of VFX.
> ...
> I beat Stephen Pelc to the punch by implementing rquotations in 2016.
> Woo hoo! Stephen Pelc didn't actually care though.

Well if he didn't care then perhaps there is neither an internal
conspiracy to wreck 200x, nor interest in making anything others
invent first, proprietary.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 18, 2019, 10:27:59 AM9/18/19
to
He cared enough to standardize the Paysan-faked quotations.
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan cared enough to lie about the
rquotations in their EuroForth-2018 paper.
That is definitely an internal conspiracy to wreck Forth-200x.

I think the fake quotations will wreck Forth-200x.
The Committee of Can't has discredited themselves completely.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 29, 2019, 10:29:09 PM9/29/19
to
I wrote MFX, which consisted of the assembler, simulator and
Forth cross-compiler. The assembler rearranged the instructions
so they would pack into the opcodes with as few NOP instructions
as possible, while yet doing the same thing as if the instructions
were assembled one per opcode in the same order that they appeared
in the source-code. Up to 5 instructions could be packed into each
opcode, and each opcode executed in one clock-cycle. The assembler
also generated a program that ran on the host computer and simulated
the execution of the target computer program.

After I left, somebody (presumably John Hart and/or Steve Brault)
wrote a traditional on-board interactive Forth system in MFX.
I never saw this. Most likely it was pretty similar to the many
Forth system available where you have the dictionary in the
micro-controller memory and you have an outer-interpreter running
on the micro-controller itself. It would not have an assembler
available because it is not possible to write to code-memory
while the MiniForth is running. All the primitives would need
to be written ahead of time using the MFX assembler, similar to
the way that figForth required an external assembler.
This is not going to generate efficient code because it is not
meta-compiling primitives. The advantage is that it is interactive
so it allows fast testing and debugging in the usual Forth way.

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> The official answer from Tom Hart, their president,
> who agreed to have his answer to me published on clf:
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> and what he really achieved at TESTRA??
>
> He wrote our Forth compiler for the processor
> that we implemented in a Lattice PLD.
>
> He did a good job on it,
> we are still using it with a few bug fixes and minor modifications.
>
> He had nothing to do with the processor itself,
> that was all designed by John Hart and Steve Brault.
>
> The PLD version was based upon our original Forth Engine
> done long before we ever ran across Hugh.

This is a very puzzling statement for Tom Hart to say.
For one thing, he says "compiler" rather than "cross-compiler."
For another thing, he implies by omission that I didn't write
the assembler/simulator, although I did.

I think Tom Hart's memory of the 1990s is very fuzzy!
Most likely, he is thinking about the interactive Forth compiler
that was written in MFX by somebody else after I left.
He has got his time-line screwed up!
He thinks that John Hart and Steve Brault wrote MFX in 1994 that
consisted of the assembler, simulator and Forth cross-compiler.
He thinks that I wrote the interactive Forth in MFX afterward.
The exact opposite is true!

He says that my compiler had bugs that needed to be fixed after I left.
This isn't true. The goal with MFX was that it would compiler the
motion-control program. This was accomplished while I was still there,
so there couldn't have been any bugs in MFX at the time that I left.
If there were bugs in the interactive Forth system, that isn't on me,
because that was written after I left.

In the above it seems as if Tom Hart is saying something positive about me,
that I did a "good job" on the compiler. He is not actually saying
anything positive about me though, because he is talking about the
interactive Forth compiler that was written in MFX after I left.
I don't think he actually remembers me writing MFX at all.
He similarly blamed me for failing on a program to convert AutoCAD .dxf
files into HP-GL, but I never even heard of HP-GL before. This was
most likely something that happened after I left. He is saying that
events happened in the 1990s, that actually happened in the 21st century.

I just point this out because Juergen Pintaske (or possibly
"Jurgen Pitaske" as the spelling seems to vary from day to day)
will presumably now start saying that I didn't write the
assembler/simulator for the MiniForth. I actually did though.
This is something that I'm proud of. I'm not aware of anybody else
who has ever done anything comparable.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 20, 2019, 7:38:48 PM10/20/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Dear Tom,
>
> We have not spoken for a while.
> This email is not really regarding business now, but trying to put the history right.
> Regarding Testra and regarding Hugh Aguilar.
>
> Hugh Aguilar basically says for years here on clf. that he has basically invented the MFX processor of Testra,
> And the software that basically runs the company TESTRA.

This is not true.
I already said that this is not true about two weeks prior to
Juergen Pintaske making the same accusation to Tom Hart against me again:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/9IHvRJmMn20

On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 1:20:19 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 7:31:06 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > On Saturday, 31 August 2019 03:04:11 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I have been reading some "inspiring Mark Twain quotes on life"
> > > http://www.quoteambition.com/inspiring-mark-twain-quotes-life/
> > >
> > > This quote should be very inspiring for the EuroForth writers:
> > > “Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it.”
> >
> > Hugh Aguilar basically says for years here on clf.
> > that he has basically invented the MFX processor of Testra,
> > And the software that basically runs the company TESTRA.
> >
> > I do not mind if this were true, but I really doubt it,
>
> Jurgen Pintaske (or Pitaske, or whatever) has his facts wrong.
> MFX is not a processor. MFX is a cross-compiler that I wrote.
> MFX generates code for the MiniForth processor --- it doesn't
> "run the company" (whatever that might mean).

As a general rule of thumb, whenever a person predicates his
statements with the word "basically," that person is lying.
He is making general statements that represents what he considers
to be the "greater truth," but which are not the actual truth.

Now Juergen Pintaske continues to tell lies about Testra:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/aFAVV4JbQaM

On Sunday, October 20, 2019 at 1:20:09 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> What have you ever produced useful or contributed for others to use
> - except for your vitriol ?
>
> Thrown out of Testra twice.
> Frustrating, if you invented the best Forth Implementation as you state.
>
> But it must have been rather limited or specialized
> - as nothing came after it for the last 20 years.

This doesn't make any sense.
How could I have gotten thrown out of Testra twice?
How did I get back in the second time, if I had already been thrown out?
(perhaps he supposes that they left a window unlocked and I got in that way).

It is true that I did work at Testra on two occasions, with about an
18-month separation (during which I worked as an IBM370 assembly-language
programmer, plus a short stint at cabinet making).

I expect that Tom Hart and John Hart are going to be unamused upon
hearing Juergen state that MFX was: "rather limited or specialized."
Juergen is implying that MFX and the MiniForth/RACE processor was so
limited as to be worthless --- and yet, most or all of Testra's
products for the last 1/4 century have used this technology internally.

Peter Forth

unread,
Oct 20, 2019, 8:28:28 PM10/20/19
to
Everybody in the forth community should be aware, that Pintaske
1st occupation is defamation of Forth with his lies, and Forthers in many ways
lies + insults + persecution to free forthers. Now I think this is the
absolut limit of ethics, to write to your employee to ask about a
work relation ..and then publish that letter inside a programming
forum ! This demonstrates he is a complete unethical person, he has no
limits in his mad chase for revenge.

I was chatting yesterday with some of the prestigious members of the
forth community, who also participates in CLF, and he told me about
the lies that Pintaske writes on his forth books.

He presents himself as developer of some high tech forth documents, when
everybody knows he is a total ignorant on forth, unable to write
2 lines of code that work.

This shows how desperate he is, he is a complete failure.
That bookshelf with all stolen titles of the prehistoric ages of computing
has failed completely, nobody is buying his aged papyrus and the guy
went completely mad.

Jurgen Pitaske

unread,
Oct 21, 2019, 3:18:45 AM10/21/19
to
This Proven Copyright Criminal Peter Fucking FForsau ( see other post ) is active again - either drunk or his wife threw him out again, as usual.
One of the most active Forth Killers there are.
Degarding this group to - YOU SELECT YOUR OWN NAME.

WARNING: WATCH OUT FOR IDENTITY THIEVES ON CLF https://www.facebook.com/peter.forth.583
In addition to just a copyright criminal, Peter Forsau is now stealing identities as well and posts whatever he feels like.
In their name but - everybody can quite simply check this via the IP address where the post comes from.
Mental disturbance at its best, hopefully leading to walls around him soon.
As he hates the Forth Bookshelf I created so much, this link is probably the best verifier at the end of my posts
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 24, 2019, 1:07:13 AM10/24/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:32:18 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > Why your relationship ceased,
> >
> > He was difficult to work with.
> > He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
> > but if it was a team effort, forget it.
> >
> > I let him go myself,
> > after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
> > He would not take any direction.
> > I scrapped the project.
>
> I never heard of HP-GL prior to seeing it now in Juergen's post.
> I looked it up this morning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-GL
> This is apparently a graphics language for plotters.
> Testra had no involvement in building plotters; they didn't even own one.
> It is possible that Testra got involved in plotters after I left
> (plotters are an obvious application for their motion-control board),
> but I don't know anything about this. I have never worked with plotters.

Well, Tom Hart says that I got fired for failing to write a program
to convert AutoCAD .DXF files into HPGL files.
I say that I never heard of HPGL prior to reading this and I never
was involved with HPGL at Testra.
These statements are contradictory --- so, one of us is a liar!

I said elsewhere that this was just an error on Tom Hart's part.
He simply doesn't remember the 20th century very well and/or
he doesn't remember that CNC gcode and HPGL are different languages.
He knows now though because I told him when I visited, and he admitted
verbally that there was no HPGL program, and he said that he would
correct this error. He hasn't corrected the error though!
That visit was a few days prior to Sept 16, and it is now Oct 23.
The uncorrected error has morphed into a lie during this time.

I think that Tom Hart didn't want to correct the error because
doing so makes him look like a senile old fool with CRS.
So, he has decided to just let it slide. A lot of old men are
arrogant and believe that they are too important to be strictly
held accountable for telling the truth --- so when they sling
bullshit, the world of unimportant people should just accept this
as their new truth, politely forgetting the actual truth.
Tom Hart was arrogant in the 1990s too though, so it isn't age.

Tom Hart just let the lie fly, so the result is this:

On Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:20:36 PM UTC-7, Robert L. wrote:
> On 9/13/2019, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
>
> > a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
>
> This may be a good programming puzzle.
>
> Can someone give the specifications? (Start a new thread.)

Tom Hart is totally okay with me looking like an idiot who can't write
a program to do a simple data-format conversion, which is at most
a "programming puzzle" that could be accomplished in one weekend.
He considers this to be my problem, not his, so he will ignore it.

Tom Hart drives a super-duty pickup-truck with a "Trump" bumper-sticker.
That scores a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10 on the Jackass Meter
(driving a Lexus with a "Hillary Clinton" bumper-sticker also scores a 9).
People like this believe that they are very important and that they
know what is best for the American people, so they should be in charge.
People like this routinely deal in "truthiness" --- they make statements
that aren't actually true, but which present a "greater truth" (their idea
of what is really the true true, as seen from a higher perspective).
The definition of a "jackass" is anybody who believes that he or she
has a higher perspective on the world than everybody else.

none albert

unread,
Oct 24, 2019, 5:04:25 AM10/24/19
to
In article <8c66e20f-4e06-4b0f...@googlegroups.com>,
<hughag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:32:18 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
>> > Why your relationship ceased,
>> >
>> > He was difficult to work with.
>> > He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
>> > but if it was a team effort, forget it.
>> >
>> > I let him go myself,
>> > after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
>> > He would not take any direction.
>> > I scrapped the project.
>>
>> I never heard of HP-GL prior to seeing it now in Juergen's post.
>> I looked it up this morning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-GL
>> This is apparently a graphics language for plotters.
>> Testra had no involvement in building plotters; they didn't even own one.
>> It is possible that Testra got involved in plotters after I left
>> (plotters are an obvious application for their motion-control board),
>> but I don't know anything about this. I have never worked with plotters.
>
>Well, Tom Hart says that I got fired for failing to write a program
>to convert AutoCAD .DXF files into HPGL files.
>I say that I never heard of HPGL prior to reading this and I never
>was involved with HPGL at Testra.
>These statements are contradictory --- so, one of us is a liar!

Don't be so hard on yourself. Memories get blurred over time.

Groetjes Albert
--
This is the first day of the end of your life.
It may not kill you, but it does make your weaker.
If you can't beat them, too bad.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 26, 2019, 7:11:28 PM10/26/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>
> Nice to hear from you. I was going to answer your prior Email, but got busy.
>
> Some answers regarding your questions:
> ...
> He was difficult to work with.
> He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
> but if it was a team effort, forget it.
>
> I let him go myself,
> after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
> He would not take any direction.
> I scrapped the project.

Tom Hart isn't really making very much sense here.
If the project was so easy that any competent programmer could have
done it given Tom Hart's directions, why was it scrapped?
Why didn't somebody halfway smart do it? Why didn't Tom Hart do it himself?

When I visited Testra (Sept 14 or 15 of this year), John Hart told me
that after I left he attempted to upgrade my program to use
Bezier Splines, but doing so was beyond his mathematical ability,
so the program had to be scrapped. I'm not directly to be blamed
for this, because I was gone by that time.

I didn't know about Bezier Splines when I was at Testra.
I was thinking about trying polynomial approximation, but I never
got around to doing this, and it is likely beyond my mathematical ability.
Also, the Pentium was already stretched to its limits with my
current program which does a lot of trig of floating-point numbers,
so curve-fitting 1000s of points wasn't really going to happen.
Years later I read about Bezier Splines in a computer magazine and thought:
"That might have worked." I never learned anything further though.

Tom Hart's "directions" never mentioned Bezier Splines, so I'm
pretty sure that he doesn't know about Bezier Splines either.
Even if he had directed me to use Bezier Splines, there is no guarantee
that I would have succeeded. My mathematical ability isn't very strong.
Also, I was getting paid by the hour, and I was expected to spend my
time programming, but to already know how to program. All education
on programming was done on my own time, so I wasn't enthusiastic about
learning hard subjects --- I would learn easy subjects on my own for fun.

Tom Hart spends his time doing big President stuff, selling motion-control
boards, and looking down on the world from his "higher perspective."
He does little or no programming. On my first day at Testra I was told
by John Hart that his brother Tom had written a text-user-interface
code-library (similar to Turbo Vision but in UR/Forth not Turbo Pascal).
He asked me if I wanted to become an expert in using this TUI.
I said: "Nope!" He said: "Nobody ever does. Tom is the only user of it."
I never heard anything further about Tom Hart's TUI, nor did I ever
hear about Tom Hart having ever written any other software.
I considered it to be a trick question --- John Hart was just testing me
--- an affirmative answer would have indicated that I was an idiot
who doesn't know how to program but instead wants to become an expert
in user-interfaces or some other nonsense, and pretend to be a programmer.

In the old days, what is now done with Bezier Splines was done manually
using a light-table, tracing paper and French Curves (I mean the
flat plastic kind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_curve
not the femme fatale kind common in Paris). Most likely, Tom Hart
was mad because a job that was easy in pre-computer times had become
difficult on the computer, requiring a lot of math. This is why he tells
random people he meets (Juergen Pintaske) that I'm utterly incompetent and
should never be hired again for as long as I live (24 years gone by now).

I'm pretty familiar with the ANS-Forth and Forth-200x cult! LOL
I expect that, having read this, they will now begin to hee-haw about
how they are the world's experts on Bezier Splines. They might even
write a EuroForth paper on the subject (no source-code, of course).
Andrew Haley saw that I had written <SWITCH in ANS-Forth,
so he offended me by declaring himself the world's expert on the subject.
Peter Knaggs saw that I had written LIST.4TH in ANS-Forth,
so he offended me by declaring himself the world's expert on the subject.
Stephen Pelc saw that I had written STRING-STACK.4TH in ANS-Forth,
so he offended me by declaring himself the world's expert on the subject.
This is grossly offensive behavior! I find it very irksome! :-(
Now Elizabeth Rather's squirmy troll-army will undoubtedly strive to
offend me by declaring themselves the world's experts on Bezier Splines.
Why should I care though? I'm not getting paid for this stuff.

I know more about programming now than I did in the 20th century,
but no more about mathematics (actually I know less because in those
days I used algebra and trigonometry daily, but I'm out of practice now)
Could I figure out Bezier Splines now? Maybe!
Will anybody pay me to do so? Hell no!

Cecil - k5nwa

unread,
Oct 26, 2019, 8:15:28 PM10/26/19
to
A long time ago I wrote some code to do Bezier Curve Fitting for a
personal project, as I remember the code itself was rather involved, but
I also remember having to do a lot of reading after buying several books
on the subject before writing one line of code. No Internet available at
the time, now all that information is available for free.

The books came quite handy later on for use with the topic of
Bresenham's algorithms for a CNC work project, I still have most of the
books.

--

Cecil - k5nwa

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 27, 2019, 1:12:31 AM10/27/19
to
When I was younger I was fascinated by mathematical topics.
I remember studying Besenham's Algorithm when I was in high-school.
I wrote a program on the C64 to do turtle-graphics in a universe
with 6 dimensions, and it displayed a 3D image (actually 2D with
perspective to a virtual horizon-point) that was a slice of the
6D object drawn (a hypercube typically). I also read math books a lot.
All of that fizzled out eventually because I really didn't have
the mathematical background to go beyond the basics of anything.

Later on, when I was employed at Testra, I became fascinated by
molecular biology and read a dozen or more books on the subject.
This was because John Hart was a big supporter of Intelligent-Design.
I actually agree with John Hart on this. The engine of evolution is
DNA (also RNA for bacteria), but DNA and RNA are too complicated to
have arisen by accident --- Francis Crick himself said that DNA
was designed in a laboratory and was not the result of random
amino acids sticking together in a "prebiotic soup" with lightning.
All of that fizzled out eventually too, because I really didn't have
the educational background to go beyond the basics of chemistry.

Eventually my fascination with Forth programming will fizzle out too,
although this is the most long-lasting fascination as I have been
doing this since I was 18 (the C64 program mentioned above was my
first non-trivial Forth program shortly after high-school graduation).

Liang Ng

unread,
Oct 27, 2019, 1:19:37 AM10/27/19
to
On Saturday, 14 September 2019 10:37:12 UTC+8, dxforth wrote:
> On Saturday, 14 September 2019 02:52:06 UTC+10, Rick C wrote:
> > ...
> > I blame Forth for bringing out the worst […]
>
> You've noticed that :)
>
> Chuck described Forth as 'an amplifier' - a double-edged sword
> if ever there was. Given Forth's scope for extension and the
> means to do so who has resisted the temptation to 'play God'
> deciding what is good for all. Forth doesn't exactly encourage
> 'team players'. OTOH given enough time - who knows - it may
> also knock off the hard edges and corners of the stony Gods it
> so readily produces.

The Chinese character Dao (Tao) 道 is made of 足 (foot) at the bottom left and 首 (head) at the top right. These correspond exactly to edge and vertex in graph theory, which reverse polish notation and Forth so elegantly represent.

That is as close to God as you can get from Chinese perspective.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 30, 2019, 11:58:24 PM10/30/19
to
Juergen Pintaske was mad because I said that the liars
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan lied about the rquotations:

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> See his last post from Comp Lang Forth; this triggered this email to Testra:
> (I said:)
> Anton Ertl is the referee for the "academic" papers.
> He and Bernd Paysan wrote a refereed paper for EuroForth-2018
> that had no purpose except to attack the rquotations.
> They lied when they said:
> "the higher-order word that calls the rquotation must not use locals."

So the liar Juergen Pintaske lies to Tom Hart, saying that I claimed to
have designed the Testra processor although I never said any such thing:

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Hugh Aguilar basically says for years here on clf.
> that he has basically invented the MFX processor of Testra,
> And the software that basically runs the company TESTRA.
>
> I do not mind if this were true, but I really doubt it,

Then the liar Tom Hart lies about me failing on an HPGL project
that I was never involved in and that likely happened after I left:

> Why your relationship ceased,
>
> He was difficult to work with.
> He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
> but if it was a team effort, forget it.
>
> I let him go myself,
> after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
> He would not take any direction.
> I scrapped the project.

Notice the parade of liars?
Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan say that rquotations don't work.
Juergen Pintaske says that I claimed to have invented Testra's processor.
Tom Hart says that I failed on an HPGL project that I wasn't involved in.

Then, Tom Hart becomes totally patronizing toward me:

> and what he really achieved at TESTRA??
>
> He wrote our Forth compiler for the processor
> that we implemented in a Lattice PLD.
>
> He did a good job on it,
> we are still using it with a few bug fixes and minor modifications.
>
> He had nothing to do with the processor itself,
> that was all designed by John Hart and Steve Brault.
>
> The PLD version was based upon our original Forth Engine
> done long before we ever ran across Hugh.

The way that I remember it is this:
---
John Hart and Steve Brault wrote an HDL for the Lattice 1048isp PLD.
This was prior to my starting work there, so I don't know the details.
This was John Hart's design and mostly his code.
Steve Brault wrote some tools, including CARMAP (this is the
Karnaugh Mapping tool, and I don't know why they spelled it with a 'C').
---
John Hart and Steve Brault wrote the motion-control program for the 80c320.
This was prior to my starting work there, so I don't know the details.
I also don't know anything about the PID algorithm and I have high-school
level knowledge of calculus which PID control is based on (I didn't
actually take calculus in high-school but I learned that much on my own).
---
John Hart designed the MiniForth processor for the Lattice 1048isp PLD
and he wrote the HDL code for it. Steve Brault was not involved AFAIK.
---
I wrote MFX the development system at the same time,
on John Hart's heels (he would implement features and I would support them).
MFX included the assembler, simulator and Forth cross-compiler.
---
Steve Brault ported the motion-control program to MFX at the same time,
on my heels (I would implement features and he would put them to use).
He would ask for needed features that I would provide.
He wrote a few general-purpose primitives including the 16-bit addition,
but I wrote essentially all of the general-purpose primitives.
Steve wanted to write general-purpose primitives because he thought that
I was progressing too slowly, but told John Hart that there should be a
separation of responsibilities and that only I should write the
primitives, and John Hart agreed so Steve kept his hands off MFX.
I had no involvement in the motion-control program and I never saw
the source-code for it (because they thought I would steal it).
The goal of MFX was to support the motion-control program, and the
motion-control program worked before I left, proving that MFX was bug-free.
I didn't test the motion-control program --- John Hart did.
---
After I left, somebody (John Hart, Steve Brault, or both) wrote an
interactive on-chip Forth in MFX. This allows for fast development,
but it does not include an assembler (because the MiniForth can't write
to code-memory while it is running) so it can't meta-compile primitives.
---
About a decade after I left John Hart learned VHDL and built the RACE
processor on a Lattice FPGA that is compatible with the MiniForth
so MFX could continue to be used. This was significantly faster.
---
About a year or two ago John Hart learned Verilog and built the RACE
processor using that, still on a Lattice FPGA. He either has or soon will
switch from Lattice to Xilinx or Altera because he has chilled on Lattice.

Notice that Tom Hart is not mentioned anywhere in this, because his
technical contribution was zilch. When I was writing MFX I considered
this to be pretty cool cutting-edge technology. I would expect that
most programmers would be interested and would say something like:
"I want to learn MFX assembly-language! Where is the documentation?
I will write a few simple primitives such as fetch and store
in the assembly-language to learn how the MiniForth works. Big fun!"
Tom Hart never said anything like this. He never wrote a single
assembly-language primitive, not even fetch and store for learning.
Most likely this is because he thinks that assembly-language functions
are called "primitives" because assembly-language programmers are
knuckle-dragging brutes far below his "higher perspective."
Tom Hart never got involved in the HDL programming either.
His only contribution to the design that I recall was to say that an
8032 was already on the board because it was needed to pony up the
MiniForth, so the 8032's UART could be used for serial communication
rather than building a UART inside of the Lattice PLD (problematic
because the MiniForth took up so much of the PLD's resources
that a UART couldn't also be added and the PLD still rout successfully).
Suggesting the 8032 UART usage wasn't much of a design contribution.
I'm pretty sure that John Hart already knew that the 8032 had a UART
built in, so he was already aware of that option if the PLD didn't rout.

The only technical activity that I actually saw Tom Hart doing was
fabricating boards with a soldering iron and testing them with an
oscilloscope --- this was after the R&D was done and production had begun.
AFAIK, this is the only technical skill that he has for hardware,
and his text-user-interface in UR/Forth is his only software achievement.
I remember being told after finishing MFX that I would be a lot more useful
(would actually get some hours that I could bill for) if I knew how to
fabricate and test boards --- this is why I left Testra at that time ---
I thought it was unfair that I should be criticized for not being
an electrical-fabrication technician because I signed on as a programmer.

This is what Tom Hart said about me:
> He wrote our Forth compiler for the processor
> that we implemented in a Lattice PLD.
>
> He did a good job on it,
> we are still using it with a few bug fixes and minor modifications.

This is so patronizing as to be grossly offensive.
He is implying by omission that I didn't write the assembler and simulator.
How does he know that I did a "good job" on MFX without having ever
written a single line of assembly-language code? Maybe it was a bad job!
The assembler was the difficult part of MFX because it would rearrange
the instructions to do out-of-order execution, packing as many instructions
into each opcode as possible to maximize the parallelization.
I don't think Tom Hart knows anything about MFX --- he may not know that the
MiniForth was a VLIW and had an assembly language --- he may believe that
the MiniForth was a crude Forth engine similar to the RTX-2000 of that era
that had a few Forth primitives in hardware and no assembly-language.

Also, exactly what bugs were in MFX that needed to be fixed?
I think he just made up that accusation because, from his
"higher perspective," he has come to believe that all programs have bugs.

Tom Hart can take his patronizing compliment that I did a "good job"
and shove it up his ass. I don't ask Tom Hart to compliment me.
I only ask Tom Hart to stop lying about the HPGL project.
There was no HPGL project! Tom Hart needs to stop lying about this.
That is all that I ask of Tom Hart.
That is all that the world needs from Tom Hart. Nothing else matters.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Nov 4, 2019, 12:46:03 AM11/4/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 10:38:44 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> There are probably hundreds or thousands of Forthers in the world
> who do not understand what is happening in this group.
>
> Now they have the context and from the Horses Mouth.
> And they will have this here for the many years to come.

Juergen Pintaske now says that I got fired for incompetence from Testra
after writing MFX. This is indirectly an attack on Testra because
it implies that MFX didn't work, which implies that the MiniForth/RACE
processor doesn't work either. How could the processor be useful in any way
if the compiler was written by an incompetent who got fired afterward?

Cui bene?
Who benefits from the "hundreds or thousands of Forthers in the world"
believing that Testra's Forth processor doesn't work and isn't useful?

Stephen Pelc sells boards running Forth, typically based on the ARM.
Stephen Pelc also says this on his website:
--------------------------------------------
The RTXcore is a VHDL clean-room implementation of the
Intersil RTX-2000 for FPGAs. It runs the same instruction set,
but twice as fast on a Xilinx Spartan. An an on-chip UART as well as
the original peripherals are provided.
--------------------------------------------

Stephen Pelc wants the Forthers of the world to believe that he is
the master of soft-core Forth processors. He did a
"clean-room implementation of the Intersil RTX-2000," meaning that
he didn't pay Intersil for their design. He got the R&D done for free
using the same "clean-room implementation" technique that Red China uses.
The RTX-2000 was actually not competitive with the MiniForth in 1994,
and Stephen Pelc's "twice as fast" version isn't competitive with the
RACE today, which is several times faster than the MiniForth of 1994.
Stephen Pelc can't compete with Testra on a technical basis, so he
instead strives to drag Testra through the mud on comp.lang.forth.

Juergen Pintaske is supposedly an ex-employee of Stephen Pelc,
yet here he is making an attack on Testra that only benefits
Stephen Pelc (benefits Elizabeth Rather slightly too, but not
as much because Forth Inc. doesn't sell Forth boards or chips).

I think that Juergen Pintaske is still an employee of Stephen Pelc.
Juergen Pintaske no longer strives to make MPE look good,
which didn't work very well because Juergen knew nothing about Forth.
Instead, Juergen Pintaske's job is to attack Stephen Pelc's
competition, which primarily includes Testra.

Tom Hart is very old and he has serious mental problems.
His memory of the 20th century is very fuzzy! He can't remember
the difference between CNC gcode and HPGL, and he is arrogant
enough to think that the difference is unimportant when you consider
what an important person he is (no, it actually does make a difference).
He asked me: "What is the MiniForth?" He should remember that!
Tom Hart also has serious paranoia issues. He allowed Juergen Pintaske
to convince him that I was on comp.lang.forth claiming to have
designed Testra's processor. I never said any such thing! Tom Hart
could have verified this with a few minutes of research, or he could
have just asked me. Instead, Tom Hart gets riled up and fires off an
attack against me on comp.lang.forth in which he claims that I'm
utterly incompetent, don't take direction, and not qualified for any job.

Juergen Pintaske took advantage of a foggy old man nearly 80 years old.
That was uncool!
Ultimately though, I think that Stephen Pelc is the mastermind of this
attack --- quietly operating in the background --- hoping that when
the dust clears he will be recognized as the master of soft-core Forth
processors with his clean-room implementation of the RTX-2000.

That would be a pretty sad outcome.
In 1994 I mentioned the RTX-2000 as a possible choice for the
motion-control board, rather than build a custom processor.
This suggestion was nixed. John Hart told me that the RTX-2000
was not fast enough, and it was over-priced, and there was no way
to prevent reverse-engineering of the firmware by Red China.
The RTX-2000 was roughly comparable to the MC68000 --- the MC68000
was actually obsolete in 1994 though --- the RTX-2000 was obsolete too.
The competitor in the laser-etching business was using an MC68000
board programmed in C. The MiniForth board cost less and was also
significantly faster, so that really killed the competition.

So, Tom Hart shot himself in the foot.
I'm intrinsically linked to the Testra processor because I wrote MFX,
the assembler/simulator and Forth cross-compiler that continues
to be used today on the RACE. When Tom Hart says that I'm incompetent,
he indirectly takes a shot at his own processor. Tom Hart tried to
make a subtle distinction, saying that I did a "good job" on the
Forth compiler (implying by omission that I didn't write the
assembler and simulator), but this was just patronizing nonsense.
The take-away message of his attack was that I'm incompetent.
This was really dumb!
I haven't asked Tom Hart for a job reference in over 20 years.
I have been ignoring Tom Hart for over 20 years.
This was a totally unprovoked attack on me.
He could have just shut the hell up --- that would have been wise.

From a practical perspective, none of this matters.
There aren't "hundreds or thousands of Forthers in the world."
In 1994 there was a mass exodus of UR/Forth programmers who switched
over to C programming. UR/Forth had been the dominant Forth system,
so this mass exodus resulted in a loss of maybe 90% of all Forthers.
Now we have maybe 20 Forthers on the Forth-200x mailing list,
and all of them are idiots (Alex McDonald, etc.) who spend their time
discussing recognizers and other nonsense that has nothing to do with
Forth programming. Nobody is actually writing Forth programs.
ANS-Forth killed Forth --- there are no Forth jobs --- not since 1994.

I've been reading about the Donner Party, which is a case-study in
how to screw up as badly as it is possible to screw up.
The Forth community has descended to a similar situation.
The Forthers now kill the other Forthers and eat them.
Juergen Pintaske represents the final hate-filled face of Forth.
I'm similar to the Indians Lewis and Salvatore who refused to commit
cannibalism because of their honor, then they got murdered and eaten.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Nov 10, 2019, 5:10:47 PM11/10/19
to
This is worthwhile thread to read:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/y96tQf_iOSk%5B1-25%5D

When I visited Testra, Tom Hart was very mad at me.
He said that he had been told (by Juergen Pintaske) that I was
"bad-mouthing Testra and telling a lot of lies on comp.lang.forth
about Testra." Perhaps Tom Hart read the above mentioned thread
and found this quote from me:

On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 7:43:42 AM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 2:43:58 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> > Is there anyone in the Forth community you admire? So much bile.
>
> I was impressed by the quality of UR/Forth.
> UR/Forth worked okay for writing MFX with only a few flaws,
> and I'm not aware of any other Forth that would have been adequate.
> So I admire Ray Duncan.
>
> I was impressed by the MiniForth design.
> This was the only Forth processor developed in the 20th century
> by anybody other than Charles Moore.
> This continues to be the only VLIW Forth processor ever developed.
> So I admire John Hart.
>
> I was impressed by the design of Forth.
> So I admire Charles Moore.

Perhaps Tom Hart got mad because he assumed that a big President
such as himself should get big admiration from a lowly programmer
such as myself.
Yet I didn't mention him at all! I only mentioned his younger brother!

Anyway, here we still are:

Gerry Jackson

unread,
Nov 10, 2019, 5:27:51 PM11/10/19
to
Yes unfortunately, boring everybody who reads this crap. What makes you
think that anybody gives a shit about your relations with Testra.

>
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:58:24 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Tom Hart can take his patronizing compliment that I did a "good job"
>> and shove it up his ass. I don't ask Tom Hart to compliment me.
>> I only ask Tom Hart to stop lying about the HPGL project.
>> There was no HPGL project! Tom Hart needs to stop lying about this.
>> That is all that I ask of Tom Hart.
>> That is all that the world needs from Tom Hart. Nothing else matters.


--
Gerry

hughag...@gmail.com

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Nov 10, 2019, 11:39:56 PM11/10/19
to
On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 3:27:51 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
> On 10/11/2019 22:10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Anyway, here we still are:
>
> Yes unfortunately, boring everybody who reads this crap. What makes you
> think that anybody gives a shit about your relations with Testra.

Stephen Pelc's employee Juergen Pintaske apparently does.
He went to a lot of effort to attack me, and attack Testra indirectly.
He continues to say that I was fired for incompetence and
that MFX doesn't work, and imply that the Testra processor doesn't
work either --- this is what Stephen Pelc pays him to do.

Rick C

unread,
Nov 11, 2019, 12:27:01 AM11/11/19
to
You might consider doing what the rest of us do about Juergen, ignore him when he is ranting.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Jurgen Pitaske

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Nov 11, 2019, 3:15:43 PM11/11/19
to
Learn reading - if you can
and read your own posts and what Tom, one of the directors of Testra stated about you.

And stop your lies about visiting Testra again AFTER Tom send his kind email to me that I posted here. See at the beginning of this post.

They would have thrown you out at the entrance after having read what you post here about TOM AND ABOUT TESTRA.

And not just in this post here but everywhere on clf
- and probably elsewhere.

DISGUSTING

I keep Tom uptodated about your lies about Testra here
- up to him to call the police when suitable as he has your contact details.

And by the way - you should consider your importance on this planet and here in clf:

1 of 6 800 000 000 so a lot less than 1 ppb
- and probably one of 100 posters here on CLF.

My posts are mostly for the quiet community
- as we all here know about your vitriol.


As you know very well the following are again your usual lies:

> Stephen Pelc's employee Juergen Pintaske apparently does.

BULLSHIT

> He went to a lot of effort to attack me, and attack Testra indirectly.

BULLSHIT - I warned you a few times but did not care
- so you can read your time at Testra for the rest of your life.

> He continues to say that I was fired for incompetence and
> that MFX doesn't work, and imply that the Testra processor doesn't
> work either ---

BULLSHIT again

this is what Stephen Pelc pays him to do.

BULLSHIT AGAIN - I stopped consulting for MPE 6 months ago - actually he calmed me down quite a few times after you threw your vitriol around again.

NOW I AM FREE AND CAN CALL YOU THE ARSEHOLE that you are.

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Nov 28, 2019, 1:21:27 PM11/28/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>
> Nice to hear from you. I was going to answer your prior Email, but got busy.
> ...
> He did fine if it was something he could do by himself without supervision,
> but if it was a team effort, forget it.
>
> I let him go myself,
> after I had given him a project to write a DXF converter to HPGL code.
> He would not take any direction.
> I scrapped the project.

Today is Thanksgiving. Tom Hart can be thankful that he has a new BFF:
Juergen Pintaske!
Tom Hart always looked down on me as a mere programmer, far below
the level of a big President such as himself.
He doesn't think he has any peers, and certainly not a mere programmer.
But now Tom Hart has found somebody that he considers to be his peer!
Tom Hart and Juergen Pintaske put their heads together to judge me.

Tom Hart is a liar. For twenty years he has been saying about me:
"He would not take any direction."
He is trying to portray me as a stupid little trainee who needs to be
micro-managed on a day-to-day basis, and still fails due to an inability
to take direction. This isn't true at all. What I remember the most
about working at Testra is that I never got any direction at all.
I was really on my own figuring out how to get this stuff working.

This is a subjective call. Was I a trainee unable to take direction?
Or was Tom Hart just embarrassed that Testra needed outside help
to write the assembler, so he needed to discredit me so that he could
claim that the assembler was written in-house?
Now however, I have busted Tom Hart on telling a lie that is not
subjective at all. There either was or was not an HPGL project.
This is not a subjective distinction. The truth is that there was no
HPGL project --- Tom Hart has been caught lying about something that
is easily disproved (John Hart is honest, so he will say that
there was no HPGL project --- just ask John Hart for the truth).

I intend to call Tom Hart a liar every day for the rest of his life.
Thanksgiving Day is not an exception.

Note that BFF means: "best friend forever."
Juergen Pintaske is now inextricably linked to Tom Hart.
Here is a typical example of Tom Hart's BFF on the warpath:

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 1:28:39 PM UTC-7, JUERGEN wrote:
> On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 9:11:29 PM UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > You are filled with hate toward my disambiguifiers --- how foolish
> > will you appear when your employer accepts the disambiguifiers? ---
> > I think that it is inevitable that Stephen Pelc will eventually accept
> > the disambiguifiers, because arguing in favor of ambiguity
> > is a not going to continue to work forever.
>
> Forth Killer at work again.
> I give a fuck about your disambiguifiers - as I give a fuck about
> any of your work you are claiming you have done. It stinks
> and it always will. You might flavour it - but shit stays shit.
> You give a shit about anybody who does not like you -
> which is probably 200% of the Forth community. Piss off and get out of
> my thread - who gives you the right to comment here.
> You are drunk again or using other drugs.
>
> Never looked at it never will. Why waste my time with it.
> An arshole is an arshole - and only shit comes out of it
> as you have proven for the last x years

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 14, 2019, 12:57:53 AM12/14/19
to
Here is an interesting quote from Zbig:

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 5:45:49 AM UTC-7, Zbig wrote:
> We've got here (in Poland) a smartass businessman - Mr. Filipiak -
> who created a saying:
> "every specialist programmer can be replaced with finite number of students".
> So this is probably approach of most "industry" of today:
> easily replaceable programmers - "the gear is here, why not use it",
> quality of software doesn't matter that much anymore.
> If anything goes wrong - never mind, "online updates" are available
> (how many times each week our Android phones are "updating"
> various pieces of software?) etc. etc.

This Mr. Filipiak seems to be very similar to Tom Hart!

Tom Hart believed that every specialist (I was a specialist in MFX
because I wrote MFX) can be replaced by a finite number of students.
Tom Hart's mind (in 1994) was stuck in the late 1980s when there
were a lot of Forth programmers and all of them were enthusiastic
about gaining employment in Forth so they could do work they enjoyed
rather than accept the drudgery of C programming or ditch digging.
In 1994 however, ANS-Forth killed Forth for good, and all of those
enthusiastic Forth programmers just switched to C programming.
Tom Hart didn't notice that the rug had been pulled out from under him.

I still think that Juergen Pintaske continues to be employed by MPE
but now, instead of overtly promoting VFX (he was terrible at this
because he knew nothing about Forth programming) Juergen covertly
attacks MPE's enemies --- this mostly means Testra.
The plan is that Tom Hart will sell the MiniForth/RACE outright to
Stephen Pelc. John Hart told me during my visit that Testra was
going to be sold in the near future. MPE is the only candidate
that I can think of for buying Testra --- also, this is the only
reason why Tom Hart would have been in communication with MPE,
which is how he met his new BFF Juergen Pintaske.
Tom Hart said:
"Sounds like the Forth community has some problems with non team players."
He is obviously brown-nosing Stephen Pelc --- what other team is there?

The plan of MPE buying Testra isn't going to work very well.
There was no documentation for the MiniForth when I wrote MFX
(I relied on emails from John Hart for a description of the ISA,
and the design changed day by day which is why I had my DUJOUR.4TH file
for the changeable aspects). There is no documentation for the ISA
except for the comments in my source-code (mostly in DUJOUR.4TH).
Before I left, I was asked to write some documentation for MFX,
which I did. I wrote a document (using Borland Sprint), but it did not
describe the ISA. It gave a brief description of using the assembler,
but I primarily focused on the high-level Forth features --- this was
because I expected that any new employee would struggle enough to
learn the Forth, but would have no hope of learning the assembly-language.
This document isn't going to be adequate for Stephen Pelc to become
an expert in MFX assembly-language. Also, Stephen Pelc doesn't know
what a VLIW is --- the assembler is much more complicated than any
assembler for mundane processors such as the ARM Cortex or x86.
In a VLIW, the assembler does the rearrangement of instructions,
whereas in the x86 the out-of-order execution is arranged internally
by the processor itself, but the assembler is pretty much the same
as it was in the old days (of the 8086) when there was no out-of-order
execution but the instructions just executed sequentially with no
parallelization at all. Figuring out how concurrent execution of
instructions worked was difficult for me, and I'm pretty sure this
is beyond Stephen Pelc's talent level even when he gets to look at
the source-code for my assembler.
Stephen Pelc will give Tom Hart money, but not get any positive results.
The end result is that John Hart will take the MiniForth/RACE to
the grave with him, and the only thing that Tom Hart will leave
to the world will be a super-duty truck with a 'Trump' bumper-sticker
(given Stephen Pelc's money he might upgrade to an actual monster-truck
with ten-foot-tall knobby tires capable of crushing a Prius like a bug).

As a final note, let me comment that I have noticed a change over the years.
In the old days, America was leading the world in programming innovation.
Over time however, America's innovation-engine ran out of steam.
In the 21st century, most innovation comes from foreign countries
(Lua from Brasil, Ruby from Japan, Erlang from Sweden, etc.).
I'm not aware of any innovation coming from Poland --- this is likely
due to a rise of American-style MBA-types such as this Mr. Filipiak ---
if the Poles cut the chain binding their ankles to this boat-anchor,
they should be able to sail forward into the future too!

Ultimately, innovation is accomplished by a smart programmer working alone.
There is no other way.

Zbig

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Dec 14, 2019, 11:10:18 AM12/14/19
to
> This Mr. Filipiak seems to be very similar to Tom Hart!

Do you think so? Does Mr. Hart drive his own R-R? OK, actually Mr. Filipiak doesn't drive his Rolls neither - of course his personal driver drives it.

The bloke made really big money doing business with government (as usual in such cases): https://www.comarch.pl/o-firmie/zarzad/prof-janusz-filipiak/

> I'm not aware of any innovation coming from Poland --- this is likely
> due to a rise of American-style MBA-types such as this Mr. Filipiak ---
> if the Poles cut the chain binding their ankles to this boat-anchor,
> they should be able to sail forward into the future too!

Unfortunately, so far the last really spectacular polish invention regarding informatics area was personal computer (long before the term itself had been invented). It looked like this:
http://www.zenker.poznan.pl/k-202/grafika/k-202-widok.jpg
OK, "formally" it was minicomputer, not "micro-" - the microprocessors haven't been invented yet at that time, right?
Handful of basic facts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-202

Could be nice target for Forth, couldn't it?

Since that time, for reasons obvious to us all here - and probably less obvious elsewhere - not that much happened. And because polish software industry has been "filipiakized" - they even attract "cheap programming force" from Ukraine etc. - I'm not sure is it going to change anytime soon.

OK, polish game "The Witcher" became kind of blockbuster; somewhat other thing than the ones you mentioned, but still. ;)

Jurgen Pitaske

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Dec 14, 2019, 12:34:49 PM12/14/19
to
Thanks for reminding me that I should not forget to post
the link and the list of Special Forth Presents this year,
If there are still some little presents missing under the Christmas Tree…

The current Forth Bookshelf can be found at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM

1 Charles Moore - Forth - The Early Years: Background information about the beginnings of this Computer Language
2 Charles Moore - Programming A Problem Oriented Language: Forth - how the internals work
3 Leo Brodie - Starting Forth -The Classic
4 Leo Wong – Juergen Pintaske – Stephen Pelc FORTH LITE TUTORIAL: Code tested with free MPE VFX Forth, SwiftForth and Gforth or else
5 Juergen Pintaske – A START WITH FORTH - Bits to Bites Collection – 12 Words to start, then 35 Words, Javascript Forth on the Web, more
6 Stephen Pelc - Programming Forth: Version July 2016
7 Brad Rodriguez - Moving Forth / TTL CPU / B.Y.O. Assembler
8 Tim Hentlass - Real Time Forth

9 Chen-Hanson Ting - Footsteps In An Empty Valley issue 3
10 Chen-Hanson Ting - Zen and the Forth Language: EFORTH for the MSP430G2552 from Texas Instruments
11 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth and Zen - 3rd Edition 2017: with 32-bit 86eForth v5.2 for Visual Studio 2015
12 Chen-Hanson Ting - eForth Overview
13 Chen-Hanson Ting - FIG-Forth Manual Document /Test in 1802 IP
14 Chen-Hanson Ting - EP32 RISC Processor IP: Description and Implementation into FPGA – ASIC tested by NASA
15 Chen-Hanson Ting – Irriducible Complexity
16 Chen-Hanson Ting - Arduino controlled by eForth

17 Burkhard Kainka - Learning Programming with MyCo: Learning Programming easily - independent of a PC (Forth code to follow soon)
18 Burkhard Kainka - BBC Micro:bit: Tests Tricks Secrets Code, Additional MicroBit information when running the Mecrisp Package
19 Burkhard Kainka – Thomas Baum – Web Programming ATYTINY13

Jurgen Pitaske

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Dec 14, 2019, 12:35:18 PM12/14/19
to
On Thursday, 28 November 2019 18:21:27 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:

Jurgen Pitaske

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Dec 14, 2019, 1:20:27 PM12/14/19
to
On Monday, 11 November 2019 04:39:56 UTC, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
Just going through the bullshit you are posting - a magnific bunch of lies as usual:

> Stephen Pelc's employee Juergen Pintaske apparently does.

Lie number 1 - I have never been an employee of MPE - I worked as consultant in the past.
Even after 5 years you cannot grasp it. Showing your reading deficit.


> He went to a lot of effort to attack me, and attack Testra indirectly.

Lie number 2: I just threw the shit you had posted back at you.

. and attack Testra indirectly.

Lie number 3: Testra quite nicely clarified the stuff you posted as Glorified Time at Testra. I am rather grateful Testra did this. Read the email to me higher up in this thread.


> He continues to say that I was fired for incompetence and

Lie number 4: Testra clearly stated "we had to let him go". Go up in this post and read what Testra sent me.


> that MFX doesn't work, and imply that the Testra processor doesn't
> work either

Lie number 5: I have no clue what your MFX does - and actually do not care.

--- this is what Stephen Pelc pays him to do.

Lie number 6: as styated above more bullshit from you.

You should not make it too obvious that you have been fired from your last job recently asd have no frieds to talk to or talk with - only option: have to post your shit here.

6 lies in five lines of posting - definitely a new record.

hughag...@gmail.com

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Dec 15, 2019, 12:05:56 AM12/15/19
to
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 9:10:18 AM UTC-7, Zbig wrote:
> > This Mr. Filipiak seems to be very similar to Tom Hart!
>
> Do you think so? Does Mr. Hart drive his own R-R? OK, actually Mr. Filipiak doesn't drive his Rolls neither - of course his personal driver drives it.
>
> The bloke made really big money doing business with government (as usual in such cases): https://www.comarch.pl/o-firmie/zarzad/prof-janusz-filipiak/
> ...
> Since that time, for reasons obvious to us all here -
> and probably less obvious elsewhere - not that much happened.
> And because polish software industry has been "filipiakized" -
> they even attract "cheap programming force" from Ukraine etc. -
> I'm not sure is it going to change anytime soon.

Tom Hart drives a over-sized pickup truck with a "Trump" bumper-sticker.
Maybe he will upgrade to a Rolls Royce if his buddy Donald hooks him up
with a big government contract. Loyalty has its perks! ;-)

Anyway, communism is corruption.
There isn't going to be any innovation under communism.
Like any slave, you get assigned to a job and you do what you are told.
A "non team player" like me would get a bullet in the back of the head.

Fascism (called "corporatism" by Mussolino) is corruption too, though.
Fascism is all about state-mandated monopolies.
Poland has Janusz Filipiak and America has Bill Gates. People tend to
believe that Windows just arose naturally, like a force of nature,
but this isn't true --- the federal government gave MicroSoft a
monopoly in the federal bureaucracy and this turned MicroSoft into
an 800-pound gorilla, so it was able dominate in the civilian world too,
despite its abysmal quality --- this is how the bad becomes normal.

Communism and fascism are "opposames" --- the libertarians use
one word "statism" for both --- the actual result is the same either way.
This is based on Hegelian philosophy that teaches that there is a
thesis and an antithesis, and they combine to form the synthesis.
In WWII we had the communists versus the fascists, which were supposed
to be exact opposites, so people could chose one side or the other
and believe that they were good and the other side was bad.
This is a "managed conflict" in which a false dichotomy is presented
and the people believe they are exercising their "free will" to chose
one side or the other, but they aren't --- it is the same either way.
The synthesis was the New World Order --- it didn't actually matter
which side "won" WWII because the New World Order was going to be
the synthesis either way.

The "opposame" concept is why we often see supposed opposites
working together, despite being theoretic enemies, or individuals
switching sides with little or no disruption in their evil activities.
For example, in the early post-WWII period, Israel bought 100% of
their weapons from Odessa (the organization of former SS officers),
the weapons being left-overs from the war (plenty of weapons!).
It would seem that Israel and the SS would be natural enemies who
would hate each other forever, but they easily learned to get along
like brothers after 1947 --- this was because they were the same
at heart --- Israel was a continuation of Nazi philosophy except that
they oppressed the Palestinians, but the philosophy was of oppression
so they were alike and in many cases were actually the same people.

Anyway, I wish the best for Poles --- hopefully they can cut the
chains that bind them to a statist system, to become free.
Hopefully Americans can do the same!

hughag...@gmail.com

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Dec 16, 2019, 12:29:41 AM12/16/19
to
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 9:08:59 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Dear Tom,
>
> We have not spoken for a while.
> This email is not really regarding business now, but trying to put the history right.
> Regarding Testra and regarding Hugh Aguilar.

When I visited, I said to Tom Hart:
"You do know that Juergen Pintaske got fired from MPE, right?"
Tom Hart replied: "Juergen wasn't fired from MPE."

At the time, I interpreted this to mean that Juergen had not been fired,
but had just quit MPE amiably to move onto some other sales job.
Later on I realized that a different interpretation is that
Juergen Pintaske is still employed by MPE.

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 11:57:54 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
> I'm puzzled why they're giving out personal information to third parties
> with no apparent legal right to know.

I think that Stephen Pelc contacted Tom Hart and said that he is
interested in buying Testra, including the MiniForth/RACE processor.
It was at this time that Tom Hart met Juergen Pintaske.
Juergen said: "This email is not really regarding business now..."
This purchase of Testra by MPE is the "business now" referred to above.
Tom Hart is highly enthusiastic about cashing out finally, so he is
willing to do what Juergen Pintaske tells him to do --- denounce me.
Tom Hart is a Judas --- he betrays me for the promise of money.

What is sad about this is that there is almost zero chance that
Stephen Pelc is going to buy Testra, because the assembler doesn't have
any documentation. The assembly-language is also about 4* more difficult
than ordinary assembly-languages because you have to be aware of the
parallelization, there are no jump or branch instructions except NXT,
and there are no addressing modes other than inherent.
This is the deep end of the pool --- Stephen Pelc stays in the kiddie pool.
So Tom Hart the Judas sold me out, and he didn't even get his 30 denarii.

Actually, Tom Hart was betraying me 20 years ago too though.
He would say that he fired me: "He would not take any direction."
He was trying to present me as a stupid little trainee who needs
to be micro-managed day-by-day and still fails.
He did this so he could pretend that he wrote the assembler himself.

Ironically, Stephen Pelc also thinks that I'm a stupid little trainee:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/T-yYkpVwYew

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 11:39:35 AM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 10:07:52 AM UTC-7, Stephen Pelc wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Apr 2015 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT), hughag...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > >So how do you write SYNONYM so that it can make a synonym
> > >of an immediate word?
> >
> > The VFX source code is:
> >
> > : SynComp, \ xt --
> > \ Compile a child of SYNONYM.
> > >body @ compile,
> > ;
> >
> > : Synonym \ "<new-name>" "<curdef>" --
> > \ *G Create a new definition which redirects to an existing one.
> > \ ** Normal dictionary searches for *\i{<new-name>} will return
> > \ ** the xt of *\i{<curdef>}.
> > create
> > hide ' reveal dup , immediate?
> > if immediate endif
> > ['] SynComp, set-compiler
> > $010 latest set-bit \ set header's alias bit
> > interp>
> > @ execute
> > ;
> >
> > For some words you may have to RTFM.
> >
> > Stephen
>
> Cynical readers will notice that this code is not ANS-Forth.
> When Stephen Pelc (Forth-200x committee member) tells the plebian
> (Hugh Aguilar) to RTFM (Read The F'ing Manual), he is referring to
> the VFX manual. All of that code is VFX-specific. Stephen Pelc is trying
> to trap the VFX users into relying on vendor-specific code so they
> won't be able to port their code to competitor's ANS-Forth compilers ---
> vendor lock-in, of course, is what the standard is supposed to prevent!
>
> Alert readers will also notice this code has a bug in it.
> If SYNONYM is used to make a synonym of a word defined with CREATE
> and then >BODY is used on the synonym, >BODY will not return the
> body-address of the original word. I have read on comp.lang.forth
> that VFX has a new version that fixes this bug. I haven't bothered
> to download the new version however, so I haven't verified this.
> The more important problem is that Stephen Pelc is refusing to acknowledge
> the existence of the disambiguifiers and he is insisting that a word
> such as SYNONYM "requires carnal knowledge."

So, Stephen Pelc is insulting me by saying: "RTFM."
But now Stephen Pelc is thwarted in his attempt to buy Testra
and their processor because I didn't write a manual for him to read.
Well, I did write a manual, but it was for high-level Forth programming;
it didn't document the assembler except to say look in the DUJOUR.4TH file
for comments describing each instruction. Stephen Pelc won't succeed.

Well, if Stephen Pelc declines to buy Testra, maybe Janusz Filipiak
will buy Testra --- he can replace the specialist (me) with
a finite number of students (everybody on comp.lang.forth).

Janusz Filipiak's idea reminds me of a Pyramid Scheme --- this would work
if there were an infinite supply of investors, so nobody ever ends up
on the bottom level of the pyramid, but the pyramid just keeps growing
wider and wider. Unfortunately, there are a finite supply of investors.
Pretty soon, there are no more investors joining, and so the bottom-level
investors lose their investments. The same thing happens with Filipiak's
pyramid. In his finite number of students there are one or two that are
smart enough to become specialists, but then they demand a raise in pay,
so they get replaced by a finite number of students --- this new group
can't include anybody from the first group --- pretty soon, Filipiak
runs out of students joining, so he has to look for them in the Ukraine,
and eventually he ends up in Ecuador asking the headhunters in the jungle
if they would like to be Forth students (they kill him and shrink his head).

dxforth

unread,
Dec 16, 2019, 3:01:55 AM12/16/19
to
Why write a gossip column for free, when you could make money
out of it.

https://www.subscribetoday.com.au/new-idea/

Admittedly the magazine should have been called 'No Idea' but
I guess it might have given the game away.

hughag...@gmail.com

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Dec 24, 2019, 1:00:40 AM12/24/19
to
On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 3:27:51 PM UTC-7, Gerry Jackson wrote:
> On 10/11/2019 22:10, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Anyway, here we still are:
>
> Yes unfortunately, boring everybody who reads this crap. What makes you
> think that anybody gives a shit about your relations with Testra.

You're a vulgar little prick, aren't you?
Have you been taking lessons from Juergen Pintaski?

I think that everybody in the ANS-Forth cult does care.
This is why they began attacking me in 2009, and continue today.
Elizabeth Rather saw me as a representative of Testra, and Testra
is the competition, so she and her cult attacked me.

You continue to attack me, such as here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/y96tQf_iOSk%5B1-25%5D
Most of your attacks are just bizarre idiocy, such as saying that
because I wrote SET-CONTEXT PUSH-CONTEXT etc., this is "more proof"
that I don't know what SET-ORDER does. You are attacking me on
Elizabeth Rather's orders, so she apparently still does care.

Now however, Tom Hart says:
"Sounds like the Forth community has some problems with non team players."
Apparently, Tom Hart has decided rather belatedly to get on his knees
for Elizabeth Rather and Stephen Pelc, so he can become a team player.
I think that Tom Hart will make a great team player!
Joining the ANS-Forth cult is all about being a liar, so it is a natural fit.

hughag...@gmail.com

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Dec 24, 2019, 5:12:12 PM12/24/19
to
Juergen Pintaske told a big lie about MFX to Tom Hart to get him riled up,
and this is the same lie that he has been telling for quite some time:

On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 1:20:19 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 31, 2019 at 7:31:06 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > Hugh Aguilar basically says for years here on clf.
> > that he has basically invented the MFX processor of Testra,
> > And the software that basically runs the company TESTRA.
> >
> > I do not mind if this were true, but I really doubt it,
>
> Jurgen Pintaske (or Pitaske, or whatever) has his facts wrong.
> MFX is not a processor. MFX is a cross-compiler that I wrote.
> MFX generates code for the MiniForth processor --- it doesn't
> "run the company" (whatever that might mean).

Now we have this humorous statement:

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-7, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> Lie number 5: I have no clue what your MFX does - and actually do not care.

He doesn't know what MFX does, and he doesn't care --- but he knows that
Tom Hart does care, so he uses MFX as the basis for his lies about me
to get Tom Hart riled up against me.

Juergen Pintaske is a pig! This should be obvious given two minutes of
interaction with him. The fact that Tom Hart totally accepts Juergen's lies
without doing any checking, and treats Juergen as his peer, says quite a lot
about Tom Hart.

Also, the fact that Stephen Pelc employed Juergen as the MPE salesman
for a long time, says quite a lot about Stephen Pelc.
I think that Juergen is still employed by Stephen Pelc.
If Juergen is not employed by Stephen Pelc, he didn't mention this to
Tom Hart --- he was representing himself as an employee of MPE when he
sent that email to Tom Hart, which is why Tom Hart responded --- and
Stephen Pelc knows about this, but doesn't seem to be bothered by it.

As I said before:

Zbig

unread,
Dec 26, 2019, 7:06:20 PM12/26/19
to
> Janusz Filipiak's idea reminds me of a Pyramid Scheme --- this would work
> if there were an infinite supply of investors, so nobody ever ends up
> on the bottom level of the pyramid, but the pyramid just keeps growing
> wider and wider. Unfortunately, there are a finite supply of investors.

It's not "pyramid scheme" at all.

That (finite number of) students won't hire another students; they are doomed to earn little to mediocre money (they can get "replaced" otherwise...) therefore to stay employees forever. Programming laborers.
I didn't have a contact to Indian programmers, but I read that (in general) they are like this: cheap, but don't expect too much quality for little money you are going to pay them. Of course some good specialist also can be found, as everywhere (but they won't be cheap).

hughag...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 28, 2019, 12:59:57 AM12/28/19
to
You didn't understand my analogy to a pyramid scheme!

Lets say that 10% of the students are smart enough to become specialists.
So Filipiak fires his specialist for demanding too much money,
and he replaces him with 10 students. Some time passes and one student
rises up as a competent programmer and the other 9 are incompetent so
they either get fired or they get simple tasks that they can handle.
The one smart student demands higher pay because he is a specialist now.
Filipiak fires him and replaces him with 10 students...
It is a pyramid scheme because it would work if there were an infinite
number of students to hire, but there isn't due to the fact that the
students who have been hired in the past and fired can't be hired again.
So, Filipiak runs out of students and has to look further afield for
more students --- the Ukraine --- but, the further afield he looks the
lower the quality gets, so the percentage drops from 10% to 5% and he has
to hire 20 students to replace the specialist rather than just 10.
Like all pyramid schemes it is not a long term plan. It will fail.
Filipiak doesn't care because he has government contracts so he is making
a lot of money --- when the pyramid scheme fails he moves out of Poland,
buys a house on the French Riviera, and calls the scheme a success.

For Tom Hart, failure came quickly.
His mind was stuck in the 1980s when there were a lot of young eager
Forth students begging for jobs and willing to work for $10/hour.
He assumed that it would be an easy to find students to replace me,
and assuming that some reasonable percentage were smart he could keep them
and get as much work out of them as possible until they demanded more
money because they had become specialists, at which time he would fire
them and hire more students to replace them...
This plan failed because he never found anybody to replace me.
Either nobody was willing to hire on and try to learn MFX, or everyone
that he hired was not smart enough to learn MFX and so he wasted his money.

Tom Hart had to rely on his younger brother John Hart and his long-time
employee Steve Brault to do all of the MFX programming, and so Testra
continued to be a small company for 20 years because they lacked the
programming staff to take on big jobs.