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can greenarrays produce something like rasberry pi?
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quiet_lad
Mar 7, 2012, 10:54:23 PM3/7/12
to
Jason Damisch
Mar 8, 2012, 2:11:29 PM3/8/12
to
On Mar 7, 7:54 pm, quiet_lad <gavcom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
This market is very saturated, and the amount of software to implement
it would be a great deal of work. So, the question is, what about the
GA144 platform would make using it for a small multipurpose computer
device compelling compared to using another CPU? Why?
The kinds of applications that GA is going after are more specialized
single purpose applications. An example might be a vision system.
This thing is geared more towards imbedded applications which needs a
great deal of processing horsepower while also needing to use as
little energy as possible. So much the better if the application is
logarithm orientated instead of data orientated.
That being so, the next question might be, how much memory does
PolyForth on the GA144 give you?
My feeling about all of this, is that if you want a small handheld
Forth computer, just write a machine language implementation of Forth
for the Game Boy DS. You get sprite hardware, sound, memory cards,
two screens, one of which can be a keyboards, and you get to play
games on it when you are not in the mood to fiddle around with Forth.
You can pick up a used DS for maybe $60. Even better, because you are
dealing with a single piece of hardware, and there are not a broad
base of clones, such as for the PC, you can write directly to the
hardware.
Jason
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
This market is very saturated, and the amount of software to implement
it would be a great deal of work. So, the question is, what about the
GA144 platform would make using it for a small multipurpose computer
device compelling compared to using another CPU? Why?
The kinds of applications that GA is going after are more specialized
single purpose applications. An example might be a vision system.
This thing is geared more towards imbedded applications which needs a
great deal of processing horsepower while also needing to use as
little energy as possible. So much the better if the application is
logarithm orientated instead of data orientated.
That being so, the next question might be, how much memory does
PolyForth on the GA144 give you?
My feeling about all of this, is that if you want a small handheld
Forth computer, just write a machine language implementation of Forth
for the Game Boy DS. You get sprite hardware, sound, memory cards,
two screens, one of which can be a keyboards, and you get to play
games on it when you are not in the mood to fiddle around with Forth.
You can pick up a used DS for maybe $60. Even better, because you are
dealing with a single piece of hardware, and there are not a broad
base of clones, such as for the PC, you can write directly to the
hardware.
Jason
marko
Mar 8, 2012, 10:43:05 PM3/8/12
to
quiet_lad wrote:
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
Gavino,
Rasberrypi software is mostly a wrapper around a huge proprietory blob. Very
little of it is open source.
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
Gavino,
Rasberrypi software is mostly a wrapper around a huge proprietory blob. Very
little of it is open source.
Hugh Aguilar
Mar 9, 2012, 12:58:11 AM3/9/12
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On Mar 8, 12:11 pm, Jason Damisch <jasondami...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This thing is geared more towards imbedded applications which needs a
> great deal of processing horsepower while also needing to use as
> little energy as possible. So much the better if the application is
> logarithm orientated instead of data orientated.
Slide-rules are logarithm oriented, and they use zero wattage!
> This thing is geared more towards imbedded applications which needs a
> great deal of processing horsepower while also needing to use as
> little energy as possible. So much the better if the application is
> logarithm orientated instead of data orientated.
jc
Mar 9, 2012, 2:45:18 AM3/9/12
to
the energy used to move them could surely power a GA144. Slide rules
were my first experience with "early binding" programming.
Andrew Haley
Mar 9, 2012, 4:09:01 AM3/9/12
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Andrew.
Mark Wills
Mar 9, 2012, 5:10:40 AM3/9/12
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On Mar 9, 9:09 am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
wrote:
It's the GPU on the Pi. It actually does most of the work (from what I
have read) with the ARM demoted to doing IO. The Linux OS hooks into
proprietary (closed source) code provided by the GPU vendor. One of
the guys involved in the project works for the GPU vendor, but the
details escape me now. I think I read something on The Register
(theregister.co.uk) about it.
wrote:
have read) with the ARM demoted to doing IO. The Linux OS hooks into
proprietary (closed source) code provided by the GPU vendor. One of
the guys involved in the project works for the GPU vendor, but the
details escape me now. I think I read something on The Register
(theregister.co.uk) about it.
Andrew Haley
Mar 9, 2012, 6:34:16 AM3/9/12
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Mark Wills <markrob...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 9:09?am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
complete Linux system on there, and the GPU does graphics, video
decoding, and so on. If you happen to be using it for streaming
video, then the GPU may indeed be doing most of the work.
> The Linux OS hooks into proprietary (closed source) code provided by
> the GPU vendor.
This is not at all unusual.
> One of the guys involved in the project works for the GPU vendor,
> but the details escape me now.
Eben Upton, yes. Maybe he wants you to focus on the GPU, but there's
an entire GNU/Linux system in there as well. To claim that the OS is
"merely a wrapper around the GPU" is bonkers screaming nonsense on
stilts.
That explains it: El Reg should be read for entertainment only.
Andrew.
> On Mar 9, 9:09?am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
> wrote:
>> marko <ma...@marko.marko.marko> wrote:
>> > quiet_lad wrote:
>>
>> >>http://www.raspberrypi.org/
>>
>> > Gavino,
>>
>> > Rasberrypi software is mostly a wrapper around a huge proprietory
>> > blob. Very little of it is open source.
>>
>> What is this "huge proprietory blob" of shich you speak?
>
>> marko <ma...@marko.marko.marko> wrote:
>> > quiet_lad wrote:
>>
>> >>http://www.raspberrypi.org/
>>
>> > Gavino,
>>
>> > Rasberrypi software is mostly a wrapper around a huge proprietory
>> > blob. Very little of it is open source.
>>
>> What is this "huge proprietory blob" of shich you speak?
>
> It's the GPU on the Pi. It actually does most of the work (from what
> I have read) with the ARM demoted to doing IO.
Well, then, what you have read is mostly nonsense. There is a
> I have read) with the ARM demoted to doing IO.
complete Linux system on there, and the GPU does graphics, video
decoding, and so on. If you happen to be using it for streaming
video, then the GPU may indeed be doing most of the work.
> The Linux OS hooks into proprietary (closed source) code provided by
> the GPU vendor.
> One of the guys involved in the project works for the GPU vendor,
> but the details escape me now.
an entire GNU/Linux system in there as well. To claim that the OS is
"merely a wrapper around the GPU" is bonkers screaming nonsense on
stilts.
That explains it: El Reg should be read for entertainment only.
Andrew.
Hugh Aguilar
Mar 9, 2012, 10:36:37 AM3/9/12
to
out of aluminum similar to the Pickett --- no binding at all.
One good thing about slide-rules is that finally we will be safe from
the huge proprietary blobs!
The only restriction with slide-rules is that you can't do a depth-
first search, but only a breadth-first search.
Alex McDonald
Mar 9, 2012, 11:44:22 AM3/9/12
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On Mar 9, 11:34 am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
wrote:
Hey, I write the occasional article for them! I didn't realise I was
there for the entertainment...
The article is here; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/raspberry_pi/.
It's not *that* bad an article...
wrote:
there for the entertainment...
The article is here; http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/raspberry_pi/.
It's not *that* bad an article...
Andrew Haley
Mar 9, 2012, 12:19:45 PM3/9/12
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Alex McDonald <bl...@rivadpm.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 11:34?am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
not; where they're just recyling blogs and press releases they're OK,
but you might as well read the blog or press release. Some articles
are just fine, but it's like reading the Eye: unless you're an expert
you don't know which articles are accurate, so you have no way to
extract any information.
> The article is here;
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/raspberry_pi/. It's not
> *that* bad an article...
It's not bad at all. There's certainly nothing in there to support
the contention that the Raspberry Pi software is just a wrapper around
a "huge proprietory blob". The GPU is just a peripheral, albeit an
important one. Of course it would be nice if the closed binary for
the GPU weren't needed.
Andrew.
> On Mar 9, 11:34?am, Andrew Haley <andre...@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
> Hey, I write the occasional article for them! I didn't realise I was
> there for the entertainment...
Well, it seems to be pretty much random whether an article is true or
> there for the entertainment...
not; where they're just recyling blogs and press releases they're OK,
but you might as well read the blog or press release. Some articles
are just fine, but it's like reading the Eye: unless you're an expert
you don't know which articles are accurate, so you have no way to
extract any information.
> The article is here;
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/raspberry_pi/. It's not
> *that* bad an article...
the contention that the Raspberry Pi software is just a wrapper around
a "huge proprietory blob". The GPU is just a peripheral, albeit an
important one. Of course it would be nice if the closed binary for
the GPU weren't needed.
Andrew.
Jason Damisch
Mar 9, 2012, 9:27:05 PM3/9/12
to
I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi? I wonder
also what it would take to display and move a sprite in this system?
Just curious.
Jason
also what it would take to display and move a sprite in this system?
Just curious.
Jason
Roger Ivie
Mar 9, 2012, 10:49:38 PM3/9/12
to
On 2012-03-10, Jason Damisch <jasond...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
Well, it's a Linux box, so presumably gforth would compile and run
> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
on the thing.
> I wonder
> also what it would take to display and move a sprite in this system?
> Just curious.
sidecar. The system is started by the GPU, which boots the ARM from an
SD card.
The GPU is some sort of proprietary RISC thing, for which Broadcom is
not publicizing the details.
They supply a binary blob that is loaded at system start. There is some
sort of API that allows Linux enough access to do X windows and some
video processing, but I don't know how well (or even if) the API is
documented.
Since it's a proprietary binary blob thingie, you'd have to talk to
it the same way Linux does, if you can figure it out.
I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the GPU provides a
framebuffer device for Linux to scribble in. The easiest thing to
do would probably be to run a Forth in Linux that scribbles all
over the framebuffer. That way you can just use the Linux
device drivers and let the Raspberry Pi folks figure out how
to talk to the GPU.
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
Jason Damisch
Mar 10, 2012, 12:09:36 AM3/10/12
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> Since it's a proprietary binary blob thingie, you'd have to talk to
> it the same way Linux does, if you can figure it out.
>
> I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the GPU provides a
> framebuffer device for Linux to scribble in. The easiest thing to
> do would probably be to run a Forth in Linux that scribbles all
> over the framebuffer. That way you can just use the Linux
> device drivers and let the Raspberry Pi folks figure out how
> to talk to the GPU.
When I was a kid trying to teach myself about programming, a big
driver
was that I wanted to write my own video games. First I started with
the Atari 800xl, which had fairly easy to use sprites, but whose
built in interpreted BASIC was too slow to program an arcade game in.
I did not have a floppy drive for it, so could not try out other
languages. At that point I wanted to try Forth, because I read a
book at the library about it, and it sounded neat.
Much later on, I acquired an Atari ST, which did not have sprites,
but required you to deal with color planes and a bitmap. I did
have a disk drive because by that time, all computers had them.
So, I did try a few Forths out, and I didn't know what I was doing
at the time, and had no help or instruction from other people. So,
at the time I did not fulfill my desire to write a video game.
If kids are supposed to get excited about programming a computer,
then should there not be some reasonably easy way to just load
a graphic, or to draw a graphic with a built in paint program,
and then to point a register at the graphic, and then to manipulate
a few other registers to move the sprite around? It doesn't sound
like you can with this machine very well.
Is this some old computer programmers idea of what a 'simple'
computer should be? When he has long forgotten the trials that
he had to go through to learn programming himself? Simple from
who's perspective?
Python, which is supposed to be available for it, is an interpreted
language. I hope that they offer some very good tutorials for that
language, because kids who have not tried computer programming can
get confused by small details which experienced programmers take
for granted.
Jason Damisch
Mar 10, 2012, 12:11:27 AM3/10/12
to
> Python, which is supposed to be available for it, is an interpreted
> language. I hope that they offer some very good tutorials for that
> language, because kids who have not tried computer programming can
> get confused by small details which experienced programmers take
> for granted.
I read this page, and I hope that some kid who has never programmed a
computer before does not have to start here. I read it and having
some
experience programming computers, I know that a kid who has never
done any programming could get confused here. These docs are for
people
who are already familiar with Linux and programming.
Roger Ivie
Mar 10, 2012, 2:21:15 AM3/10/12
to
On 2012-03-10, Jason Damisch <jasond...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If kids are supposed to get excited about programming a computer,
> then should there not be some reasonably easy way to just load
> a graphic, or to draw a graphic with a built in paint program,
> and then to point a register at the graphic, and then to manipulate
> a few other registers to move the sprite around?
I've been wondering how hard it would be to build a Squeak distribution
> then should there not be some reasonably easy way to just load
> a graphic, or to draw a graphic with a built in paint program,
> and then to point a register at the graphic, and then to manipulate
> a few other registers to move the sprite around?
for it; you'd boot the thing right into Smalltalk.
'Course, I know nothing about Smalltalk, so I don't know how hard it is
to do that sort of programming.
As for Forth, it should be easy enough to convince gforth to mmap the
framebuffer (assuming there is one), at which point you just have a
chunk of memory into which you can store things and they show up on the
screen.
Plunk that into a custom init, and you'd have a Linux that comes up into
gforth with the framebuffer mapped.
Almost like a *real* microcomputer...
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
Andrew Haley
Mar 10, 2012, 3:35:12 AM3/10/12
to
Roger Ivie <ri...@ridgenet.net> wrote:
> I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the GPU provides a
> framebuffer device for Linux to scribble in. The easiest thing to do
> would probably be to run a Forth in Linux that scribbles all over
> the framebuffer. That way you can just use the Linux device drivers
> and let the Raspberry Pi folks figure out how to talk to the GPU.
But why would you want to mess with a frame buffer? You've got
> I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the GPU provides a
> framebuffer device for Linux to scribble in. The easiest thing to do
> would probably be to run a Forth in Linux that scribbles all over
> the framebuffer. That way you can just use the Linux device drivers
> and let the Raspberry Pi folks figure out how to talk to the GPU.
hardware acceleration and OpenGL, so you might as well use it.
Andrew.
A. K.
Mar 10, 2012, 3:37:08 AM3/10/12
to
is past. Kids today don't love keyboards.
The Pi will have to compete against smart phones ... guess who'll win.
The Pi market is for techies.
Jason Damisch
Mar 10, 2012, 11:31:43 AM3/10/12
to
> The Pi market is for techies.
get past themselves and put themselves into the mindset of another
person, a user, either adult or child.
But this thing will succeed, as a development kit for people doing
embedded systems for the ARM11
Jecel
Mar 10, 2012, 1:06:06 PM3/10/12
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On Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:21:15 AM UTC-3, Roger Ivie wrote:
> I've been wondering how hard it would be to build a Squeak distribution
> for it; you'd boot the thing right into Smalltalk.
>
> 'Course, I know nothing about Smalltalk, so I don't know how hard it is
> to do that sort of programming.
There is a project called SqueakNOS which runs directly on PC hardware. Adapting that for the Raspberry Pi would be a very nice project. Two systems for kids run on top of Squeak: Etoys and Scratch. Both offer easy access to software based sprites (so the lack of information about the GPU wouldn't be too much of a problem).
> I've been wondering how hard it would be to build a Squeak distribution
> for it; you'd boot the thing right into Smalltalk.
>
> 'Course, I know nothing about Smalltalk, so I don't know how hard it is
> to do that sort of programming.
An alternative for building "Squeak computers" in the past has been the use of a very stripped down Linux. It gets the job done, but isn't as fun (or educational).
-- Jecel
http://sourceforge.net/projects/squeaknos/
http://squeakland.org/
http://scratch.mit.edu/
Jason Damisch
Mar 10, 2012, 2:41:43 PM3/10/12
to
> There is a project called SqueakNOS which runs directly on PC hardware. Adapting that for the Raspberry Pi would be a very nice project. Two systems for kids run on top of Squeak: Etoys and Scratch. Both offer easy access to software based sprites (so the lack of information about the GPU wouldn't be too much of a problem).
Jason
rickman
Mar 10, 2012, 4:28:01 PM3/10/12
to
I like it, one reply that is actually on topic, replies to that about
your use of the word logarithm rather than algorithm and another off
topic branch which immediately started talking about FOSS and how bad
the rPi is because of its closed "blob" driver for the GPU.
Anyone actually want to discuss the damn GA144?
Rick
your use of the word logarithm rather than algorithm and another off
topic branch which immediately started talking about FOSS and how bad
the rPi is because of its closed "blob" driver for the GPU.
Anyone actually want to discuss the damn GA144?
Rick
Pablo Hugo Reda
Mar 10, 2012, 5:17:17 PM3/10/12
to
Jason
I have software base sprites, vector and bitmap drawing in a
framebuffer in my system, I not use GPU.
I have software base sprites, vector and bitmap drawing in a
framebuffer in my system, I not use GPU.
Message has been deleted
quiet_lad
Mar 13, 2012, 6:26:33 PM3/13/12
to ma...@marko.marko.marko
linux supported yes?
Bernd Paysan
Mar 13, 2012, 7:13:39 PM3/13/12
to
Jason Damisch wrote:
> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
There is. Just install Gforth. It's a complete Linux system with
> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
everything and the kitchen sink.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/
Bernd Paysan
Mar 13, 2012, 7:15:23 PM3/13/12
to
Roger Ivie wrote:
> As for Forth, it should be easy enough to convince gforth to mmap the
> framebuffer (assuming there is one),
Or use "glforth", the OpenGL bindings for Gforth.
> As for Forth, it should be easy enough to convince gforth to mmap the
> framebuffer (assuming there is one),
Albert van der Horst
Mar 14, 2012, 6:26:16 AM3/14/12
to
In article <f9d8a0ec-08a0-4e5c...@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes.
In first approximation:
GA144 : raspberrypi = 72K : 256M
GA144 : raspberrypi = 100KLOC : 4GLOC
>
>Rick
Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
In first approximation:
GA144 : raspberrypi = 72K : 256M
GA144 : raspberrypi = 100KLOC : 4GLOC
>
>Rick
Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Zbiggy
Mar 15, 2012, 3:06:03 AM3/15/12
to
In comp.lang.forth, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
>
> There is. Just install Gforth. It's a complete Linux system with
> everything and the kitchen sink.
My guess is that Jason meant "standalone" Forth system for rpi...
>> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
>
> There is. Just install Gforth. It's a complete Linux system with
> everything and the kitchen sink.
--
Forth is a preserver of health (Hippocrates)
Bernd Paysan
Mar 15, 2012, 3:52:39 PM3/15/12
to
Zbiggy wrote:
> In comp.lang.forth, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>
>>> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
>>
>> There is. Just install Gforth. It's a complete Linux system with
>> everything and the kitchen sink.
>
> My guess is that Jason meant "standalone" Forth system for rpi...
Hm, the Gforth EC port for the Beagle Board might work on the Raspberry
> In comp.lang.forth, Bernd Paysan wrote:
>
>>> I wonder if somebody will make a Forth available for the pi?
>>
>> There is. Just install Gforth. It's a complete Linux system with
>> everything and the kitchen sink.
>
> My guess is that Jason meant "standalone" Forth system for rpi...
Pi as well.
Zbiggy
Mar 15, 2012, 4:37:29 PM3/15/12
to
In comp.lang.forth, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Hm, the Gforth EC port for the Beagle Board might work on the Raspberry
> Pi as well.
Made a quick-search, and I've found:
> Hm, the Gforth EC port for the Beagle Board might work on the Raspberry
> Pi as well.
#v+
I've been having a look at Gforth-EC lately, that's the embedded
cross-compiled Forth support that has been included with Gforth all
the time, but as it's well hidden and pretty undocumented, I guess most
people wouldn't have noticed it.
#v-
Yes: learning Forth using i.a. GForth I wasn't aware about anything like
that.
It could be very interesting thing to run on r-pi, since r-pi is 4x cheaper
than Beagle Board.
Nomen Nescio
Mar 16, 2012, 4:35:37 AM3/16/12
to
From zbigniew2...@gmail.REMOVE.com Fri Mar 16 06:35:35 2012
> It could be very interesting thing to run on r-pi, since r-pi is 4x
> cheaper than Beagle Board.
r-pi doesn't actually exist but Beagle Board does. r-pi is not an example of
anything except how people can be duped by hype and marketing and build
castles in the sand while delivering nothing at all but announcements.
Howerd
Mar 16, 2012, 5:27:16 AM3/16/12
to
On Mar 16, 9:35 am, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com> wrote:
> From zbigniew2011REM...@gmail.REMOVE.com Fri Mar 16 06:35:35 2012
Hi Nomen,
From the Farnell, UK website :
"Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
have already sold out."
This doesn't sound like vapourware to me...
Best regards,
Howerd
> From zbigniew2011REM...@gmail.REMOVE.com Fri Mar 16 06:35:35 2012
From the Farnell, UK website :
"Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
have already sold out."
This doesn't sound like vapourware to me...
Best regards,
Howerd
Paul Rubin
Mar 16, 2012, 5:46:59 AM3/16/12
to
Howerd <how...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> From the Farnell, UK website :
> "Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
> unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
> Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
> have already sold out."
> This doesn't sound like vapourware to me...
I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though. There have been
> From the Farnell, UK website :
> "Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
> unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
> Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
> have already sold out."
> This doesn't sound like vapourware to me...
any number of cheap arm boards in the past. The rpi doesn't seem to
bring any technical breakthroughs. Has nobody already put approx the
same straightforward combination of parts on a board, without the
undocumented chips needing binary blobs?
Howerd
Mar 16, 2012, 6:17:32 AM3/16/12
to
On Mar 16, 10:46 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Hi Paul,
I think it is because the rpi is designed from the start to teach
young people how to write games, in a simple way.
It is also cheap, and comes with Linux...
Who could ask for more?
Maybe it is better hyped, too.
Best regards,
Howerd
I think it is because the rpi is designed from the start to teach
young people how to write games, in a simple way.
It is also cheap, and comes with Linux...
Who could ask for more?
Maybe it is better hyped, too.
Best regards,
Howerd
Andrew Haley
Mar 16, 2012, 7:38:50 AM3/16/12
to
Andrew.
Mark Wills
Mar 16, 2012, 7:55:38 AM3/16/12
to
On Mar 16, 9:46 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though. There have been
> any number of cheap arm boards in the past.
Not at this price-point, there hasn't. In terms of price, it's truly
>
> I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though. There have been
> any number of cheap arm boards in the past.
revolutionary. I wish them success. They make a good point about
woeful computer education in British schools. It would be nice if the
government could get behind them and re-vamp computer education in
this country.
I have fond memories of my school from 1983-1986. Thinking back, we
were very well equipped. Two rooms of BBC B's, an old PET, a ZX
Spectrum (on a TV!) and a C64. The Beebs were all decked out with disk
drives and CUB monitors.
Those of us that showed an interest were very much encouraged to
tinker with the computers, writing programs etc during 'play-times',
during lunch breaks, and at 'computer club' after school, which ran
from 3.30pm to 5.30pm.
What great folks are teachers were!
Message has been deleted
Nomen Nescio
Mar 16, 2012, 9:43:29 AM3/16/12
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Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Howerd <how...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> > From the Farnell, UK website :
> > "Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
> > unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
> > Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
> > have already sold out."
Fine point: they have been sold but not delivered.
> Howerd <how...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> > From the Farnell, UK website :
> > "Following the successful launch of Raspberry Pi Board B we've seen
> > unprecedented levels of interest in this product. Stocks from
> > Raspberry Pi of the initial production quantity are limited and these
> > have already sold out."
> > This doesn't sound like vapourware to me...
can't ship anything" it should sound like vapourware because until they *do*
start shipping *something* that's exactly what it is.
> I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though. There have been
> any number of cheap arm boards in the past. The rpi doesn't seem to
> bring any technical breakthroughs. Has nobody already put approx the
> same straightforward combination of parts on a board, without the
> undocumented chips needing binary blobs?
John Passaniti
Mar 16, 2012, 10:31:46 AM3/16/12
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On Mar 16, 5:46 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though.
> There have been any number of cheap arm boards in the
> past. The rpi doesn't seem to bring any technical
> breakthroughs. Has nobody already put approx the
> same straightforward combination of parts on a board,
> without the undocumented chips needing binary blobs?
Please name the "cheap ARM board" that has /all/ the following...
> I do have to wonder what all the hype is about though.
> There have been any number of cheap arm boards in the
> past. The rpi doesn't seem to bring any technical
> breakthroughs. Has nobody already put approx the
> same straightforward combination of parts on a board,
> without the undocumented chips needing binary blobs?
1. Reasonably fast processor (700MHz)
2. 256M of RAM
3. Boots off and saves to standard high-capacity SD cards.
4. In the "model B" has built-in Ethernet.
5. Runs standard (not crippled) Linux distributions.
6. Uses standard USB keyboards and mice.
7. Supports audio in and audio out.
8. Has high-quality (both resolution and color depth) video.
9. Drives modern digital monitors or composite TV sets.
10. Expandable by USB.
11. Runs standard apps like OpenOffice, FireFox, etc.
12. Has GPIO pins.
...for $35. Or to put it in real world dollars, for less than about
$50, you can have a computer, keyboard, mouse, and 8G of flash that
isn't the fastest machine on the planet, but is plenty fast and plenty
capable for most real-world tasks. Not every product needs to be a
technological breakthrough. Sometimes, it's enough just to be both
useful and affordable. I can easily see how this would help a lower-
income family. But even for those who are more fortunate, I can also
see this as a fine board to replace the old Apple TV box on my big-ass
TV, or by slapping it in a box and throwing on old computer parts we
have lying around in the basement, a Internet terminal in our
kitchen. $35? I paid nearly that for a "Netduino" board with a 72MHz
ARM with a tiny amount of available RAM to run the logic for a
Christmas gift I made last year. I was going to buy another one for a
project to replace the thermostat in our house with something more
intelligent, but why bother? I can wire up the sensors and controls
to the GPIO on the Raspberry Pi and have a much more capable system.
All the Raspberry Pi people did technologically was take a very
capable SoC from Broadcom, slap it on a board, make some reasonable
trade-offs, and market the potential. Yeah, I get tired of marketing
fluff and hype, but the question isn't if you or I or pretty much
everyone else here who can afford far better would be happy with the
Raspberry Pi. The question is if this is a system that can give lower-
income people better access, if it's reasonable enough to help
revitalize IT curriculum in UK schools, and if it's open enough to
allow people to extend it in useful and interesting ways.
Paul Rubin
Mar 16, 2012, 4:03:44 PM3/16/12
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John Passaniti <john.pa...@gmail.com> writes:
> ...for $35. Or to put it in real world dollars, for less than about
> $50, you can have a computer, keyboard, mouse, and 8G of flash that
> isn't the fastest machine on the planet, but is plenty fast and plenty
> capable for most real-world tasks.
What real world tasks are you going to do with a computer, keyboard,
> ...for $35. Or to put it in real world dollars, for less than about
> $50, you can have a computer, keyboard, mouse, and 8G of flash that
> isn't the fastest machine on the planet, but is plenty fast and plenty
> capable for most real-world tasks.
mouse, 8G of flash, but no screen? Do you mean use the family TV set?
You really have to include that in the cost then, since it repurposes a
multi-user device into a single-user device, so Jimmy can't do his
homework while Mom and Dad watch the evening news, etc. Or for that
matter, Jimmy and Johnny (with separate rpis) can't both do their
homework at the same time. And aren't you also going to need a case and
power supply?
If you include the cost of the screen, you're now in the range of
Android tablets (some of them under $100) which can also serve as
e-books, or there could be an OLPC revival that actually hits the XO-1's
original $100 cost target this time.
> Not every product needs to be a technological breakthrough.
> Sometimes, it's enough just to be both useful and affordable. I can
> easily see how this would help a lower- income family.
the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
Jecel
Mar 16, 2012, 4:57:32 PM3/16/12
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On Friday, March 16, 2012 5:03:44 PM UTC-3, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
It is a very reasonable question, just like asking what is so special about the Arduino and why don't people do better versions of it? There actually are similar efforts, like http://rhombus-tech.net/
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
But at any given moment, there is room for at most one project or product to capture the public's imagination. The OLPC was it for educational laptops back in 2005-2007, the Arduino for microcontroller kits for the past few years, the iPad (though several companies had shown essentially equivalent products at CES a couple of weeks before the 2010 announcement) and so on.
Right now, the Raspberry Pi has taken "the world's cheapest computer" spot. It is a pity that the iTV failed to do this in the 1990s when it would have been even more impressive. Note how much of an impact the Commodore VIC-20 and the Sinclair ZX-81 had when they help this title.
One detail is that even the Broadcom SOC wouldn't be an option except for the special deal that Raspberry Pi was able to get as due to a founder being an employee. Some random developer wouldn't have been able to pull it off. Nor would he have been able to get the time of day from Marvell and perhaps not from Texas Instruments either. He would have better luck with NXP and Freescale, but their chips are a bit more expensive.
-- Jecel
John Passaniti
Mar 16, 2012, 5:17:04 PM3/16/12
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On Mar 16, 4:03 pm, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> What real world tasks are you going to do with a computer,
> keyboard, mouse, 8G of flash, but no screen? Do you mean
> use the family TV set?
Yes.
> What real world tasks are you going to do with a computer,
> keyboard, mouse, 8G of flash, but no screen? Do you mean
> use the family TV set?
> You really have to include that in the cost then, since it
> repurposes a multi-user device into a single-user device,
> so Jimmy can't do his homework while Mom and Dad watch the
> evening news, etc.
Mom wants to watch X and Dad wants to watch Y.
> Or for that matter, Jimmy and Johnny (with separate rpis)
> can't both do their homework at the same time. And aren't
> you also going to need a case and power supply?
access to the television-- just like they do now when they want to
watch different things. I don't see the fundamental difference
between a family scheduling use of the sole television for watching
television programs and scheduling it's use for use with a computer.
Yes, someone is going to be unhappy. It's a tough world having to
deal with such first-world problems.
I included the cost of a cheap power supply. As for a case, I
personally don't need one, because I don't make a habit of rubbing a
balloon on my head and then touching the conductors. My desk at work
is covered with bare boards. But for those who need a case, may I
suggest a nice cardboard box and duct tape.
> If you include the cost of the screen, you're now in the
> range of Android tablets (some of them under $100) which
> can also serve as e-books, or there could be an OLPC
> revival that actually hits the XO-1's original $100
> cost target this time.
families that have nightly teeth-gnashing over scheduling use of the
TV, they are free to sell the dog into slavery or shave everyone's
head and sell the hair to wig-makers to get enough money to buy a
separate television.
Have you actually used the low-end Android tablets? I have one that I
bought as a joke and it features a very slow processor, and a
resistive touch screen that is horrific for text entry. In case you
haven't been paying attention, the general consensus is that tablet
computers-- even the nice ones-- are great for *consuming* data, but
terrible for *creating* it. Don't believe me? Find a tablet, log on
to Google Groups (or your favorite web-based newsgroup interface) and
write a reply to this message of at least a couple meaty paragraphs.
No, really, I dare you. You know those hipsters you see in Starbucks
who are poking at their tablets? They aren't writing their memoirs.
OLPC revival? Sounds nice, except that it was a slower and more
limited device. In the meantime, how about a nice Raspberry Pi?
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great,
> what (if any) is the obstacle to doing a more open one?
> Is it that there's no comparable alternative to the
> Broadcom SOC?
something that offers quite a lot for the money. Like any other piece
of computing gear, it's perfect for some, stupid for others.
Depending on what you think is "comparable" there are other SoC's.
Sitting on the floor next to me is a i.MX28 evaluation board that I
got from Freescale. It doesn't have HDMI out (it directly drives LCD
panels) and the ARM processor is running at 450ish MHZ but has nearly
everything else. We're looking at using it in future products at work
because the chip is around $7 and is more powerful than we need. It
wouldn't surprise me if there were other SoC's available, but I
haven't bothered to research them.
I love the whinging over the proprietary Broadcom SoC's GPU. Is there
more open hardware out there? Yep. Has anyone actually incorporated
it into a product that actual living people can buy? Not that I see.
So should the people who potentially would benefit from the Raspberry
Pi simply do without and wait until a completely FOSS alternative
exists? Honestly, if the GPU was indeed completely open, some of the
people here would complain that they used a red PC board instead of a
green one. Hell, in another discussion group I'm in, it was pointed
out by one person that because it wouldn't fit into an Altoids tin (a
popular form-factor), he's going to have to cross the Raspberry Pi off
the list.
Paul Rubin
Mar 16, 2012, 6:30:49 PM3/16/12
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Jecel <je...@merlintec.com> writes:
>> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
>> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
>> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
>
> It is a very reasonable question, just like asking what is so special
> about the Arduino and why don't people do better versions of it? There
> actually are similar efforts, like http://rhombus-tech.net/
The arduino isn't especially closed afaik. It just uses a hw/sw
>> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
>> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
>> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
>
> It is a very reasonable question, just like asking what is so special
> about the Arduino and why don't people do better versions of it? There
> actually are similar efforts, like http://rhombus-tech.net/
ecosystem that (like anything else) is less attractive to some people
than others, and it is on the expensive side for what it does.
> One detail is that even the Broadcom SOC wouldn't be an option except
> for the special deal that Raspberry Pi was able to get as due to a
> founder being an employee. Some random developer wouldn't have been
> able to pull it off. Nor would he have been able to get the time of
> day from Marvell and perhaps not from Texas Instruments either.
comparably priced parts? Why was a special deal needed even from
Broadcom, instead or just ordering the parts the usual way, given the
quantities involved?
jacko
Mar 16, 2012, 8:06:09 PM3/16/12
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I hear they are on sale with cat5. Coola cat penti. The driver for the video was maybe a bitch, but it's a many mega flux chip for the buck, untilinflation sets in .... :D
jacko
Mar 16, 2012, 8:09:33 PM3/16/12
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On Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:54:23 AM UTC, quiet_lad wrote:
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
I think it's a good optio for audio fully custom, software, with small hardware cost.
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/
I think it's a good optio for audio fully custom, software, with small hardware cost.
Andrew Haley
Mar 17, 2012, 6:06:33 AM3/17/12
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Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
Binary blobs are pretty much the norm for video hardware. Although I
>
> Sure, my question is just, if this thing is so great, what (if any) is
> the obstacle to doing a more open one? Is it that there's no comparable
> alternative to the Broadcom SOC?
would prefer all the software to be free, I can't see this making much
difference to the target audience.
Andrew.
Message has been deleted
Jecel
Mar 18, 2012, 3:31:05 PM3/18/12
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On Friday, March 16, 2012 7:30:49 PM UTC-3, Paul Rubin wrote:
> The arduino isn't especially closed afaik. It just uses a hw/sw
> ecosystem that (like anything else) is less attractive to some people
> than others, and it is on the expensive side for what it does.
Right. I was just saying that a lot of people who can easily use any microcontroller kit out there think the Arduino isn't good and don't understand why it has become so popular. These same people won't understand what is special about the Raspberry Pi either because the issues are similar.
> The arduino isn't especially closed afaik. It just uses a hw/sw
> ecosystem that (like anything else) is less attractive to some people
> than others, and it is on the expensive side for what it does.
> Why would he need special attention from Marvell or TI if they have
> comparably priced parts? Why was a special deal needed even from
> Broadcom, instead or just ordering the parts the usual way, given the
> quantities involved?
-- Jecel
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