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FIG-Forth on CP/M
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smp
Jul 9, 2012, 11:49:53 AM7/9/12
to
Hello all,
First, let me say that I am brand new here, and I am looking for some assistance with the (very) old FIG-Forth written for the 8080 microprocessor, and distributed among computer hobbyists in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
I was introduced to Forth at about this time, and I have the first edition "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie. I have played around with Forth from time to time, and I used Forth running on Linux more than a decade ago when I was taking a course on computer languages. So, my experience with Forth in general is light.
At this stage in my life, I can now afford to acquire and play with some of the computer systems that were far too expensive for me many years ago. I am resurrecting an old HP-86B computer with an Auxiliary Processor Module, consisting of a Z80 processor and 64K (!) memory, to run the old CP/M operating system. I also have the HP-9121 dual 3.5 inch floppy drive, with each diskette capable of holding a whopping 270K bytes of information.
So, the computer is running, and I have CP/M running, and I obtained the source file for "fig-FORTH for the 8080 Release 1.1 with Compiler Security and Variable Length Names," dated September 1979. Link: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-forth_8080_ver_11.pdf. The source code contains code for interfacing with the CP/M operating system. I have assembled this code on my machine, and I have it running. I get the OK prompt, and I have exercised many of the Forth words, enough to satisfy myself that FIG-Forth is actually running on my machine.
By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to, "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model (from the Installation Manual)..."
Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And, after some looking around on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that would be a text editor.
So, at this point I have Forth running, but no screens, and no method to create any screens. I can type in operations in immediate mode just fine. I can create colon definitions in immediate mode just fine.
I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this, I can see that Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions of my diskette which should not be over-written.
What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any sensitive portions of my diskette.
I hope this treatise of mine has made some sense. I would appreciate any advice, assistance, guidance, or pointers that anyone here may have to offer.
Thanks, in advance,
smp
First, let me say that I am brand new here, and I am looking for some assistance with the (very) old FIG-Forth written for the 8080 microprocessor, and distributed among computer hobbyists in the late 1970s and early 1980s.
I was introduced to Forth at about this time, and I have the first edition "Thinking Forth" by Leo Brodie. I have played around with Forth from time to time, and I used Forth running on Linux more than a decade ago when I was taking a course on computer languages. So, my experience with Forth in general is light.
At this stage in my life, I can now afford to acquire and play with some of the computer systems that were far too expensive for me many years ago. I am resurrecting an old HP-86B computer with an Auxiliary Processor Module, consisting of a Z80 processor and 64K (!) memory, to run the old CP/M operating system. I also have the HP-9121 dual 3.5 inch floppy drive, with each diskette capable of holding a whopping 270K bytes of information.
So, the computer is running, and I have CP/M running, and I obtained the source file for "fig-FORTH for the 8080 Release 1.1 with Compiler Security and Variable Length Names," dated September 1979. Link: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-forth_8080_ver_11.pdf. The source code contains code for interfacing with the CP/M operating system. I have assembled this code on my machine, and I have it running. I get the OK prompt, and I have exercised many of the Forth words, enough to satisfy myself that FIG-Forth is actually running on my machine.
By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to, "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model (from the Installation Manual)..."
Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And, after some looking around on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that would be a text editor.
So, at this point I have Forth running, but no screens, and no method to create any screens. I can type in operations in immediate mode just fine. I can create colon definitions in immediate mode just fine.
I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this, I can see that Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions of my diskette which should not be over-written.
What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any sensitive portions of my diskette.
I hope this treatise of mine has made some sense. I would appreciate any advice, assistance, guidance, or pointers that anyone here may have to offer.
Thanks, in advance,
smp
Elizabeth D. Rather
Jul 9, 2012, 2:01:48 PM7/9/12
to
On 7/9/12 5:49 AM, smp wrote:
> I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this,
> I can see that Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive,
> starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were
> to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing
> portions of my diskette which should not be over-written.
I'm sorry, I can't help you with a figForth manual, but I can comment
> I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this,
> I can see that Forth is accessing blocks off of my disk drive,
> starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary, because if I were
> to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing
> portions of my diskette which should not be over-written.
that referencing Block 0 is a special case. The most recent block being
interpreted is kept in the variable BLK, and a value of 0 means
"interpret the keyboard buffer". So any source has to be in other
blocks. In fully native (non-CP/M or DOS) systems, Block 0 may contain
your bootstrap, which is another good reason to stay away from it.
Also, BLOCK returns an address, whereas EMIT expects an ASCII character.
So, 10 BLOCK . might show you an address, and
10 BLOCK 64 TYPE
...might display some text, if any has been put there.
I hope someone here can find your manual!
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Andrew Haley
Jul 9, 2012, 2:18:31 PM7/9/12
to
Andrew.
Rod Pemberton
Jul 10, 2012, 2:27:08 AM7/10/12
to
"smp" <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
...
> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
> (from the Installation Manual)..."
You want figinst.zip:
figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
FIG-Forth Implementations
http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html
HTH,
Rod Pemberton
news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
...
> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
> (from the Installation Manual)..."
figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
FIG-Forth Implementations
http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html
HTH,
Rod Pemberton
Ed
Jul 10, 2012, 2:38:35 AM7/10/12
to
smp wrote:
> ...
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/taygeta/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
> ...
entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk and
inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
Despite the faster I/O offered by direct disk access, most forthers and
vendors switched to OS based files. One Fig-Forth modified to use
regular CP/M files was
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/taygeta/compilers/native/misc/cpm/forth-nl.lbr
> ...
> Of course, I do not have the referenced Installation Manual. And, after some looking around
> on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an
> Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that
> would be a text editor.
The line editor screens begin on page 69
> on the Internet, I have come up with a couple of documents that purport to be an
> Installation Manual for FIG-Forth, but contain no additional code, Forth or otherwise, that
> would be a text editor.
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/taygeta/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
> ...
> I can do something like 0 LIST, or 0 BLOCK EMIT. When I do this, I can see that Forth is
> accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary,
> because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions
> of my diskette which should not be over-written.
>
> What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original
> Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to
> be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any
> sensitive portions of my diskette.
The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
> accessing blocks off of my disk drive, starting at Track 0, Sector 0. This is scary,
> because if I were to attempt to save anything, I would be in danger of over-writing portions
> of my diskette which should not be over-written.
>
> What I think I need is a pointer to some code for a simple text editor (or that original
> Installation Manual) so that I can get this added into my system. But I certainly need to
> be able to ensure that any screen that I create with the editor does not over-write any
> sensitive portions of my diskette.
entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk and
inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
Despite the faster I/O offered by direct disk access, most forthers and
vendors switched to OS based files. One Fig-Forth modified to use
regular CP/M files was
http://forthworks.com/mirrors/taygeta/compilers/native/misc/cpm/forth-nl.lbr
smp
Jul 10, 2012, 7:41:38 AM7/10/12
to
Hello again, all,
Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would have been, back in the early 1980s.
As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie) question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into something that is useful in CP/M?
Thanks again to all!
smp
van...@vsta.org
Jul 10, 2012, 12:43:29 PM7/10/12
to
Ed <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
> BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
If memory serves, the user variable "off" was added to the requested block
> BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
number. So on a per-task basis you could hae different views of the same
underlying disk.
--
Andy Valencia
Home page: http://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: http://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html
Albert van der Horst
Jul 10, 2012, 2:40:13 PM7/10/12
to
In article <jtghsl$fq4$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
editor. We (Dutch Forth Chapter) have distributed zillions of
the complete manuals in print, and have just recently discarded them.
>
>FIG-Forth Implementations
>http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html
This is a better chance.
>
>HTH,
>
>
>Rod Pemberton
>
>
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Rod Pemberton <do_no...@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>"smp" <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
>...
>
>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>
>You want figinst.zip:
>
>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
>
>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
>"smp" <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
>...
>
>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>
>You want figinst.zip:
>
>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
>
>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
editor. We (Dutch Forth Chapter) have distributed zillions of
the complete manuals in print, and have just recently discarded them.
>
>FIG-Forth Implementations
>http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/contents.html
This is a better chance.
>
>HTH,
>
>
>Rod Pemberton
>
>
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Albert van der Horst
Jul 10, 2012, 4:29:47 PM7/10/12
to
In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c...@googlegroups.com>,
You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
(compressed files)?
You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G
>
>Thanks again to all!
>smp
Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
(compressed files)?
You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G
>
>Thanks again to all!
>smp
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Albert van der Horst
Jul 10, 2012, 5:20:54 PM7/10/12
to
In article <m6yox...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl>,
I unpacked it myself with a program called lbrate .
It is indeed my effort, version 1.1F
Question : why is the source split over 3 files of 16k 10k 10k ?
Answer : That was the only way, it could be edited on a 90K
floppy disk of the Osborne.
>
>>
>>Thanks again to all!
>>smp
Have fun.
>
>Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Albert van der Horst <alb...@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c...@googlegroups.com>,
>smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hello again, all,
>>
>>Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
>>has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
>>and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
>>have been, back in the early 1980s.
>>
>>As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
>>question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
>>something that is useful in CP/M?
>
>You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
>You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
>(compressed files)?
>You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>
>Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
>the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
>It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G
Sending is not necessary.
>In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c...@googlegroups.com>,
>smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hello again, all,
>>
>>Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
>>has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
>>and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
>>have been, back in the early 1980s.
>>
>>As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
>>question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
>>something that is useful in CP/M?
>
>You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
>You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
>(compressed files)?
>You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>
>Then you will probably discover that forth-nl originates from
>the Netherlands. Please send me a copy of the plain files.
>It is probably my long-lost fig-forth CP/M 1.1G
I unpacked it myself with a program called lbrate .
It is indeed my effort, version 1.1F
Question : why is the source split over 3 files of 16k 10k 10k ?
Answer : That was the only way, it could be edited on a 90K
floppy disk of the Osborne.
>
>>
>>Thanks again to all!
>>smp
>
>Groetjes Albert
--
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
Andrew Haley
Jul 10, 2012, 5:22:22 PM7/10/12
to
Albert van der Horst <alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> In article <jtghsl$fq4$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Rod Pemberton <do_no...@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>>"smp" <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
>>...
>>
>>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>>
>>You want figinst.zip:
>>
>>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
>>
>>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
>
> I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
> OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
> editor.
Sure it does! Have a look. Blocks 87-97.
> In article <jtghsl$fq4$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Rod Pemberton <do_no...@notemailnot.cmm> wrote:
>>"smp" <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:13ba64a5-3977-4ce2...@googlegroups.com...
>>...
>>
>>> By reading the installation instructions, I see that I am now supposed to,
>>> "Type in the text editor in screens 87 through 92 of the fig-FORTH model
>>> (from the Installation Manual)..."
>>
>>You want figinst.zip:
>>
>>figinst.zip fig-Forth November 1980
>>ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/docs/FIGINST.ZIP
>>
>>figdoc.zip fig-Forth May 1979
>>http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
>
> I would have responded if this documentation were useful to the
> OP. However it doesn't contain anything related to the text
> editor.
Andrew.
Albert van der Horst
Jul 10, 2012, 9:08:58 PM7/10/12
to
In article <luKdnWWO6dKTAGHS...@supernews.com>,
I should have snipped the other archives, but really if you're
looking for editor screens in
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
you will be disappointed, I just checked.
(I just didn't OCR those screens).
OTOH the forth-nl.lbr archive contains a nice screen editor
for the Osborne, that I later adapted to IBM-compatible PC's.
>
>Andrew.
Groetjes Albert
looking for editor screens in
http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst/figdoc.zip
you will be disappointed, I just checked.
(I just didn't OCR those screens).
OTOH the forth-nl.lbr archive contains a nice screen editor
for the Osborne, that I later adapted to IBM-compatible PC's.
>
>Andrew.
Groetjes Albert
Ed
Jul 11, 2012, 12:10:26 AM7/11/12
to
Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c...@googlegroups.com>,
> smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hello again, all,
> >
> >Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
> >has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
> >and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
> >have been, back in the early 1980s.
> >
> >As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
> >question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
> >something that is useful in CP/M?
>
> You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
> You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
> (compressed files)?
> You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>
You'll need an unpack/uncompress utility. CP/M has them but I
> In article <8253fe03-8ed6-404c...@googlegroups.com>,
> smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hello again, all,
> >
> >Thank you all very much for the prompt and informative replies. This
> >has been tremendously helpful. I will peruse the Installation Manual
> >and see if I can continue my quest to get this all running as it would
> >have been, back in the early 1980s.
> >
> >As well, thanks for the pointer to the other CP/M file. One (newbie)
> >question, though: What conversion do I use to convert a .nl file into
> >something that is useful in CP/M?
>
> You mean, you have no problem with the .lbr file?
> You did succeed in unpacking it into a number of squeezed
> (compressed files)?
> You did succeed in unsqueezing the files?
>
forget the names (the folks on comp.os.cpm should be able to help).
If you can run MS-DOS (e.g. via DOSBOX) or Win32 then you
want the CFX 1.3 utilily. It will unpack/decompress LBRs in one go.
http://www.z80.eu/cpmcomp.html
Ed
Jul 11, 2012, 12:10:37 AM7/11/12
to
van...@vsta.org wrote:
> Ed <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> > the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
>
> If memory serves, the user variable "off" was added to the requested block
> number. So on a per-task basis you could hae different views of the same
> underlying disk.
That rings a bell. Checking FORTH110.ASM the user variable was called
> Ed <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > BTW "block 0" doesn't *have* to start at track 0 sector 0. By modifying
> > the disk r/w code you could, for example, have "block 0" begin at track 3.
>
> If memory serves, the user variable "off" was added to the requested block
> number. So on a per-task basis you could hae different views of the same
> underlying disk.
OFFSET which appears to be set by commands DR0 DR1.
smp
Jul 11, 2012, 7:15:43 AM7/11/12
to
On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 12:10:26 AM UTC-4, Ed wrote:
>
> You'll need an unpack/uncompress utility. CP/M has them but I
Thank you very much for the straightforward answer.
I am a Macintosh kind of guy, but I recently pulled together an "old" PC clone that is running MS-DOS to support transferring things into my HP-86B, so it sounds like the CFX 1.3 utility may be perfect for me.
Thanks a million for the pointer.
smp
>
> You'll need an unpack/uncompress utility. CP/M has them but I
> forget the names (the folks on comp.os.cpm should be able to help).
>
> If you can run MS-DOS (e.g. via DOSBOX) or Win32 then you
> want the CFX 1.3 utilily. It will unpack/decompress LBRs in one go.
> http://www.z80.eu/cpmcomp.html
>
Hi Ed,
>
> If you can run MS-DOS (e.g. via DOSBOX) or Win32 then you
> want the CFX 1.3 utilily. It will unpack/decompress LBRs in one go.
> http://www.z80.eu/cpmcomp.html
>
Thank you very much for the straightforward answer.
I am a Macintosh kind of guy, but I recently pulled together an "old" PC clone that is running MS-DOS to support transferring things into my HP-86B, so it sounds like the CFX 1.3 utility may be perfect for me.
Thanks a million for the pointer.
smp
van...@vsta.org
Jul 11, 2012, 11:56:39 AM7/11/12
to
Ed <inv...@nospam.com> wrote:
> That rings a bell. Checking FORTH110.ASM the user variable was called
> OFFSET which appears to be set by commands DR0 DR1.
Aha. They wanted distinct block numbers for all blocks on all disks,
> That rings a bell. Checking FORTH110.ASM the user variable was called
> OFFSET which appears to be set by commands DR0 DR1.
so that the block->memory map could be by block #, not (block#,device).
That make sense.
smp
Jul 13, 2012, 8:25:14 AM7/13/12
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 2:38:35 AM UTC-4, Ed wrote:
>
> The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
> entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk and
> inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
>
OK!
>
> The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
> entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk and
> inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
>
Now that I have obtained the Fig-Forth Installation Manual, I have been able to continue following the installation instructions, and I typed in the colon definitions for the initial line editor, then I was able to use the editor to type in the screens that contain the colon definitions for the line editor.
The instructions called for me to use screens 87 through 92 for the initial simple line editor. I have these in, now, and I can turn off my computer, re-boot it, and execute FIGFORTH, and voila! the screens are there for me to load up the editor again. This is exactly what I had hoped to achieve. Thanks very much, folks, for your very kind assistance.
Now I know what Ed meant (above) when he said that Fig-Forth expected to "own" the disk. Prior to doing all the typing-in I mentioned above, when I queried the disk I am using in CP/M, I saw only the one file: FIGFORTH.COM. Now, after I have done all the typing-in that I mentioned above, and I have the ability to see and load the screens containing the code for the simple line editor, if I query the disk I am using in CP/M, I see only the one file: FIGFORTH.COM.
Of course, if I had thought about it a bit, I would have expected this, but it finally dawned on me that the colon definitions I typed in to form the editor bypass the CP/M file system altogether and read and write blocks to the disk directly.
This is fine, but...
Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth screens to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a bunch of screens that do a bunch of different things, but then the disk is getting filled up so I want to save this one and move on to the next disk. I can certainly format another disk and copy FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M operating system, but then I would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, then, would I copy some of these screens from my original disk onto the new disk I am trying to create? What am I missing here?
Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the instructions, are screens 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule, or is it simply the model at the time? On my system, I have 270K bytes on the floppy disk, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes, leaving space for ~250 1K screens, so I'm not too worried at this point - but 87-92 sit somewhat smack in the middle of it...
Thanks, in advance, for your continued patience and attention!
smp
David Schultz
Jul 13, 2012, 7:10:40 PM7/13/12
to
On 07/13/2012 07:25 AM, smp wrote:
>
> Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth
> screens to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a
> bunch of screens that do a bunch of different things, but then the
> disk is getting filled up so I want to save this one and move on to
> the next disk. I can certainly format another disk and copy
> FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M operating system, but then I
> would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, then, would I copy
> some of these screens from my original disk onto the new disk I am
> trying to create? What am I missing here?
>
> Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the
> instructions, are screens 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule,
> or is it simply the model at the time? On my system, I have 270K
> bytes on the floppy disk, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes,
> leaving space for ~250 1K screens, so I'm not too worried at this
> point - but 87-92 sit somewhat smack in the middle of it...
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your continued patience and attention! smp
>
>
It has been a very long time but since I had two floppy disks I probably
>
> Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth
> screens to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a
> bunch of screens that do a bunch of different things, but then the
> disk is getting filled up so I want to save this one and move on to
> the next disk. I can certainly format another disk and copy
> FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M operating system, but then I
> would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, then, would I copy
> some of these screens from my original disk onto the new disk I am
> trying to create? What am I missing here?
>
> Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the
> instructions, are screens 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule,
> or is it simply the model at the time? On my system, I have 270K
> bytes on the floppy disk, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes,
> leaving space for ~250 1K screens, so I'm not too worried at this
> point - but 87-92 sit somewhat smack in the middle of it...
>
> Thanks, in advance, for your continued patience and attention! smp
>
>
had something that simply copied from one disk to the other.
But then I had a bare FORTH system. That is the first thing I got
running on that computer and I later used it to install CP/M-68K.
What little the disks had in the way of a file system was self imposed.
I dug out a copy of one which has:
( DIRECTORY DWS 13/07/85 # 1)
Editor Source 20-40 Assembler Source 41-56
Decompiler 59-68 File system 100-124
S1 record loader 500-503 S2 record loader 600-602
File Maintenance 300-315 Sieve 70-75
GO 80-88 Clock 90-95
DUMP 250
CPM File Interface 350
Laxen editor 400-495
Looking a bit further I found a screen that wasn't indexed with this:
( DISC COPY DWS 06/12/84 # 7)
DECIMAL
: COPY B/SCR * OFFSET @ + SWAP B/SCR * B/SCR OVER + SWAP
DO DUP R BLOCK 2 - ! 1+ UPDATE LOOP DROP FLUSH ;
: MCOPY ( from to # -- )
0 DO
OVER OVER R + SWAP R + SWAP COPY LOOP ;
Ed
Jul 14, 2012, 12:34:27 AM7/14/12
to
smp wrote:
> ...
appear at 87-92. As I recall the only screens Fig-Forth reserved were those
containing the disk-based error messages (screens 4 and 5). Screen 1 is
typically a load screen containing commands to load your application blocks.
After booting forth from CP/M you should remove the disk and insert a blank
formatted disk. This will allow you to safely use the low numbered blocks.
Unless you have a specific interest in a native Fig-Forth system, it would be
easier using a forth which stores blocks as a CP/M file e.g. Albert's forth-nl,
Laxen/Perry F83 etc. DX-Forth 1.0 has a full-screen editor, installer for
popular consoles, floating-point.
> ...
> Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the instructions, are screens
> 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule, or is it simply the model at the time? On my
> system, I have 270K bytes on the floppy disk, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes,
> leaving space for ~250 1K screens, so I'm not too worried at this point - but 87-92 sit
> somewhat smack in the middle of it...
The editor definitions may be stored on any free screens - they don't have to
> 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule, or is it simply the model at the time? On my
> system, I have 270K bytes on the floppy disk, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes,
> leaving space for ~250 1K screens, so I'm not too worried at this point - but 87-92 sit
> somewhat smack in the middle of it...
appear at 87-92. As I recall the only screens Fig-Forth reserved were those
containing the disk-based error messages (screens 4 and 5). Screen 1 is
typically a load screen containing commands to load your application blocks.
After booting forth from CP/M you should remove the disk and insert a blank
formatted disk. This will allow you to safely use the low numbered blocks.
Unless you have a specific interest in a native Fig-Forth system, it would be
easier using a forth which stores blocks as a CP/M file e.g. Albert's forth-nl,
Laxen/Perry F83 etc. DX-Forth 1.0 has a full-screen editor, installer for
popular consoles, floating-point.
Albert van der Horst
Jul 14, 2012, 7:13:47 AM7/14/12
to
In article <30605baf-7a37-4eeb...@googlegroups.com>,
>
>OK!
>
>Now that I have obtained the Fig-Forth Installation Manual, I have been abl=
>e to continue following the installation instructions, and I typed in the c=
>olon definitions for the initial line editor, then I was able to use the ed=
>itor to type in the screens that contain the colon definitions for the line=
> editor.
>
>The instructions called for me to use screens 87 through 92 for the initial=
> simple line editor. I have these in, now, and I can turn off my computer,=
> re-boot it, and execute FIGFORTH, and voila! the screens are there for me =
>to load up the editor again. This is exactly what I had hoped to achieve. =
Forth system with the disk-with-blocks.
Much better is to use a Forth that allocates the blocks in files.
(One of the links, forth-nl.lbr )
Concerning the line editor. Unless for some reason you want to follow
Starting Forth by the letter, you should consider switching to a screen
editor.
*Already in 1984* I decided that writing a small screen editor (that
understands cursor keys and can be switched between overtype and
insert mode) would be an investment in time well worth it.
Remember the editor you have typed in or are about to type in, is
based on a printing terminal, as opposed to a screen.
You can find a de-luxe editor in wina, the windows version of ciforth.
This features jumping by words and lines, splitting lines, and
deleting and undeleting words and lines via a stack of buffers.
The stack is visual on the screen.
The Osborne version comes with forth-nl.lbr.
>
<SNIP>
>
>Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth screens =
>to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a bunch of scre=
>ens that do a bunch of different things, but then the disk is getting fille=
>d up so I want to save this one and move on to the next disk. I can certai=
>nly format another disk and copy FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M opera=
>ting system, but then I would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, =
>then, would I copy some of these screens from my original disk onto the new=
>
>Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the instructi=
>ons, are screens 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule, or is it simply=
> the model at the time? On my system, I have 270K bytes on the floppy disk=
>, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes, leaving space for ~250 1K scr=
>eens, so I'm not too worried at this point - but 87-92 sit somewhat smack i=
was one of the pains of the blocks system. At least in F83 there where
editors where you could insert a block somewhere without much bother.
I use blocks in ciforth, but I rely on the index lines to load them.
The only fixed block number is the position of the error messages in
the block file. Because I use line feeds in the blocks, inserting a
block using a normal editor is easy.
>
>Thanks, in advance, for your continued patience and attention!
>smp
>
>
smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 2:38:35 AM UTC-4, Ed wrote:
>>
>> The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
>> entire disk. Typically this meant booting forth from rom or CP/M disk an=
>On Tuesday, July 10, 2012 2:38:35 AM UTC-4, Ed wrote:
>>
>> The original Fig-Forth (and early forths in general) assume it owns the
>d
>> inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
>>=20
>> inserting a formatted but otherwise empty disk to do your forthing.
>
>OK!
>
>Now that I have obtained the Fig-Forth Installation Manual, I have been abl=
>e to continue following the installation instructions, and I typed in the c=
>olon definitions for the initial line editor, then I was able to use the ed=
>itor to type in the screens that contain the colon definitions for the line=
> editor.
>
>The instructions called for me to use screens 87 through 92 for the initial=
> simple line editor. I have these in, now, and I can turn off my computer,=
> re-boot it, and execute FIGFORTH, and voila! the screens are there for me =
>to load up the editor again. This is exactly what I had hoped to achieve. =
> Thanks very much, folks, for your very kind assistance.
The first thing you should learn is to swap out the disk with the
Forth system with the disk-with-blocks.
Much better is to use a Forth that allocates the blocks in files.
(One of the links, forth-nl.lbr )
Concerning the line editor. Unless for some reason you want to follow
Starting Forth by the letter, you should consider switching to a screen
editor.
*Already in 1984* I decided that writing a small screen editor (that
understands cursor keys and can be switched between overtype and
insert mode) would be an investment in time well worth it.
Remember the editor you have typed in or are about to type in, is
based on a printing terminal, as opposed to a screen.
You can find a de-luxe editor in wina, the windows version of ciforth.
This features jumping by words and lines, splitting lines, and
deleting and undeleting words and lines via a stack of buffers.
The stack is visual on the screen.
The Osborne version comes with forth-nl.lbr.
>
<SNIP>
>
>Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth screens =
>to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a bunch of scre=
>ens that do a bunch of different things, but then the disk is getting fille=
>d up so I want to save this one and move on to the next disk. I can certai=
>nly format another disk and copy FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M opera=
>ting system, but then I would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, =
>then, would I copy some of these screens from my original disk onto the new=
> disk I am trying to create? What am I missing here?
The best is to use CP/M copy for you with disks allocated in blocks.
>
>Lastly (for now), the screens I typed in, slavishly following the instructi=
>ons, are screens 87 through 92. Is this some sort of rule, or is it simply=
> the model at the time? On my system, I have 270K bytes on the floppy disk=
>, and FIGFORTH.COM takes up about 7-8K bytes, leaving space for ~250 1K scr=
>eens, so I'm not too worried at this point - but 87-92 sit somewhat smack i=
>n the middle of it...
The hard coded block numbers and the decisions where to put your blocks
was one of the pains of the blocks system. At least in F83 there where
editors where you could insert a block somewhere without much bother.
I use blocks in ciforth, but I rely on the index lines to load them.
The only fixed block number is the position of the error messages in
the block file. Because I use line feeds in the blocks, inserting a
block using a normal editor is easy.
>
>Thanks, in advance, for your continued patience and attention!
>smp
>
>
smp
Jul 15, 2012, 8:14:05 AM7/15/12
to
Hello again,
Andrew, Albert, Ed and David, thank you very much for all your suggestions and pointers.
I have successfully obtained FORTH-NL, unpacked it using the CFX utility, and jumped through the required hoops to get the files onto an HP formatted disk that can be read by my HP-86B.
Since my HP-9121 disk drive has 2 whopping 270K 3.5 inch disks, it was no problem to PIP the 3 source files together and get the code assembled.
I now have FORTH-NL running and the STARTUP.FRT file is a *huge* help to get started. Also, the .DOC file was very helpful in pointing out how to enlarge the STARTUP file.
Next will come some playing around with the editor. I will have to see what changes will be needed to make it go on my HP-86B. If everything fails, I can always type in the simple line editor again.
Thank you all, also, for the advice on screen numbers, and what goes where, and things to avoid.
I do have a question about the STARTUP file: when I look at that file in ED, the lines seem to be all strung together with no carriage returns. If I were to create my own STARTUP file from scratch in ED, and the file had carriage returns in it, would that matter?
Thanks, once again, to you all, for the terrific assistance and support.
smp
Andrew, Albert, Ed and David, thank you very much for all your suggestions and pointers.
I have successfully obtained FORTH-NL, unpacked it using the CFX utility, and jumped through the required hoops to get the files onto an HP formatted disk that can be read by my HP-86B.
Since my HP-9121 disk drive has 2 whopping 270K 3.5 inch disks, it was no problem to PIP the 3 source files together and get the code assembled.
I now have FORTH-NL running and the STARTUP.FRT file is a *huge* help to get started. Also, the .DOC file was very helpful in pointing out how to enlarge the STARTUP file.
Next will come some playing around with the editor. I will have to see what changes will be needed to make it go on my HP-86B. If everything fails, I can always type in the simple line editor again.
Thank you all, also, for the advice on screen numbers, and what goes where, and things to avoid.
I do have a question about the STARTUP file: when I look at that file in ED, the lines seem to be all strung together with no carriage returns. If I were to create my own STARTUP file from scratch in ED, and the file had carriage returns in it, would that matter?
Thanks, once again, to you all, for the terrific assistance and support.
smp
Elizabeth D. Rather
Jul 15, 2012, 2:31:09 PM7/15/12
to
On 7/15/12 2:14 AM, smp wrote:
...
> I do have a question about the STARTUP file: when I look at that file in
> ED, the lines seem to be all strung together with no carriage returns. If
> I were to create my own STARTUP file from scratch in ED, and the file had
> carriage returns in it, would that matter?
It better not have carriage returns in it, if it's binary! Source files
don't have carriage returns, either. A block contains contiguous text,
binary, or whatever. Your editor formats source blocks into (usually) 16
lines x 64 characters for editing purposes, but that's purely cosmetic.
...
> I do have a question about the STARTUP file: when I look at that file in
> ED, the lines seem to be all strung together with no carriage returns. If
> I were to create my own STARTUP file from scratch in ED, and the file had
> carriage returns in it, would that matter?
don't have carriage returns, either. A block contains contiguous text,
binary, or whatever. Your editor formats source blocks into (usually) 16
lines x 64 characters for editing purposes, but that's purely cosmetic.
smp
Jul 15, 2012, 3:22:45 PM7/15/12
to era...@forth.com
On Sunday, July 15, 2012 2:31:09 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>
> It better not have carriage returns in it, if it's binary! Source files
> don't have carriage returns, either. A block contains contiguous text,
>
Got it. Thanks!
smp
>
> It better not have carriage returns in it, if it's binary! Source files
> don't have carriage returns, either. A block contains contiguous text,
> binary, or whatever. Your editor formats source blocks into (usually) 16
> lines x 64 characters for editing purposes, but that's purely cosmetic.
>
Got it. Thanks!
smp
Bill Marcum
Aug 1, 2012, 9:08:45 PM8/1/12
to
On 2012-07-13, smp <stephen.m....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth
> screens to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a
> bunch of screens that do a bunch of different things, but then the
> disk is getting filled up so I want to save this one and move on to
> the next disk. I can certainly format another disk and copy
> FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M operating system, but then I
> would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, then, would I copy
> some of these screens from my original disk onto the new disk I am
> trying to create? What am I missing here?
>
I played around a little with Fig-Forth on Atari 8-bit computers. As I recall,
>
> Does anyone recall how one is to go about transferring their Forth
> screens to another Forth disk? Am I being dense? Suppose I create a
> bunch of screens that do a bunch of different things, but then the
> disk is getting filled up so I want to save this one and move on to
> the next disk. I can certainly format another disk and copy
> FIGFORTH.COM onto it within the CP/M operating system, but then I
> would be back to the beginning, so to speak. How, then, would I copy
> some of these screens from my original disk onto the new disk I am
> trying to create? What am I missing here?
>
the word that physically read and wrote the disk, I think it was called
R/W, was coded so that block numbers above a certain value would access
the second disk drive.
--
Remember, root always has a loaded gun. Don't run around with it unless
you absolutely need it. -- Vineet Kumar
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