New Forth Website
Alfred
http://www.forthwiki.com
Cross posting, sorry if you get multiple copies.
The site is based on TikiWiki so it combines the all the goodness of Wikipedia,
forthlinks.com, the FAQ sites, book review sites, etc. You can also upload files
to the public or your own private gallery, create a blog, plus lots more. It is
also multilingual so you can use the site in any of 35 languages.
There is no paid advertising on the site and I make no money from it, but feel
free to promote your company, application, compiler, etc. And if you can, please
link to www.forthwiki.com from your site.
Not much there yet, but as I say on the home page, This site is by and for the
Forth community so it is whatever you make it.
Thanks for reading
Alfred
rickman
> http://www.forthwiki.com
>
> Cross posting, sorry if you get multiple copies.
>
> The site is based on TikiWiki so it combines the all the goodness of Wikipedia,
> forthlinks.com, the FAQ sites, book review sites, etc. You can also upload files
> to the public or your own private gallery, create a blog, plus lots more. It is
> also multilingual so you can use the site in any of 35 languages.
>
> There is no paid advertising on the site and I make no money from it, but feel
> free to promote your company, application, compiler, etc. And if you can, please
>
> Not much there yet, but as I say on the home page, This site is by and for the
> Forth community so it is whatever you make it.
>
> Thanks for reading
> Alfred
Is this a joke???
Rick
Hans Hübner
> Is this a joke???
Kind of. I particularily like the link titled "Forth Worth" on that
page. Heh.
Bernd Paysan
Looks like SPAM from a domain grabber. If you want a real Forth Wiki,
here's one:
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
Alfred
sites providing similar features to different groups. Check http://www.pqlug.org
. Granted they are all things I am interested in, but the point is that there is
no paid advertising, no trackers, nothing hidden or trying to grab your
information or money.
My sites are there for people to use (or not use) how they want.
Yes forthfreak.net is a wiki that I have visited and like, but it is only a
wiki. There are forum sites out there too, but they are just forums, Forth link
sites that only have Forth links, etc. If you are not interested in a site that
combines all these things fine, don't use it, but don't accuse me of spamming
and being a "domain grabber". All the domains I own point to useful,
non-advertised, user-driven sites. And if you think that I am going to get rich
by holding on to forthwiki.com or pqlug.org you had better do some more research
lol.
Alfred
Alfred
default which does point to a holding site. The domain has only been live for
about 24 hours, so still working out some kinks. I have updated the DNS servers
and if forthwiki.com isn't working for you right now, give it time for the
changes to propagate to your DNS server. DNS tools reports them correctly, but
OpenDNS still hasn't got the update.
Alfred
John Passaniti
> Is this a joke???
Yes, it is a joke that just a handful of people spend their time,
money, and effort trying to set up sites to promote Forth. There
should be more.
I've never been a fan of the "if you build it, they will come"
mentality that says if you build a web site, people will flock to it
and magically populate it with content. I'm even less of a fan of
setting up such sites with placeholder content (in this case, blank
pages with provocative names like "Chuck Moore"). It's the equivalent
of someone setting up forum software, creating dozens of discussion
areas, each with nothing in them. The intent is obvious-- the
creators of those sites want to form a framework for the site to grow
from. But more often, it has the opposite effect-- people visit the
site, see no actual content, get bored, and never come back. A better
approach is to gather a handful of prolific writers to put significant
content on the site first, and then announce it to the public.
I also have some problems with the quality of the content that's on
there. There is the bizarre suggestion that Forth programs evolve but
C programs don't-- that they are "complicated from the beginning"--
suggests someone who hasn't done significant C work (or who does, but
does so *badly*). Equally weird is the notion that in Forth, a word
has singular meaning (ignoring that the programmer can freely change
meaning) and thus the language is "finite." This then blends into a
statement that in C, there are an infinite number of possible
statements. That's obviously wrong-- the C compiler only allows a
limited subset of them, and the rules are quite well defined. But
presumably the person who wrote that statement apparently doesn't
understand the rules of C to know that while a symbol like "*" can
have multiple meanings, those meanings are easily understood in
context. It's no different from in English how a word like "set" can
have dozens of meanings, but when I say, "set this on the table" or
"is this part of the set" or "wait for the Jello to set" there is no
ambiguity because of context.
So I have problems with the form and the quality of content of the
site. But even so, I applaud the site's creator for the effort and
hope it inspires more people to do the same (or actually, better).
Here are three simple ideas that might inspire others:
1. Set up a wiki (or for wiki's that allow hierarchy, a section
within the wiki) where each word of the ANS and other significant
Forth standards are given their own page. Divide up that page
according to standard, and for each provide stack pictures and
descriptions of the word. Then, have a section for each word where
notes and discussion about usage, history, warnings, and other
suggestions are provided. Finally, provide that from a consistent URL
so that Forth development environments can consistently reference it
using a syntax like "about X" where "X" is the word you're interested
in.
2. Encourage Forth vendors and significant community members to
actively blog about Forth. Then, set up a "planet" RSS aggregator
where people can go to quickly summarize what's new in the world of
Forth.
3. Someone take on the role of summarizing what is current. For
example, every month in "Linux Journal" I look forward to the "diff -
u" column which is a summary of Linux kernel developments. That
column is short, refrains from too much of the author injecting their
own commentary, and provides a way to know what is going on without
having to constantly monitor hundreds of conversations across kernel
development. For Forth, that would mean monitoring comp.lang.forth,
pinging vendors for developments, monitoring standards discussions,
etc. The key is a (largely) dispassionate summarization.
Bernd Paysan
Ah, yes, now it works. The site I've been viewing was the "holding
site", which looked like a domain grabber and SPAM SPAM SPAM.
Sorry if this problems with DNS caused severe misunderstandings here.
Hugh Aguilar
> Is this a joke???
I encourage Alfred to ignore all of these put-downs from the C.L.F.
crowd. Here on C.L.F. nobody ever posts code except an occasional
small snippet, but the emphasis seems to be on putting other people
down. By comparison, Alfred's site allows people to upload programs.
Considering that programming supposedly involves writing programs,
this emphasis on actual programs makes his site significantly more
useful than C.L.F..
I have uploaded my slide-rule program to his site and have also set up
a forum devoted to supporting this program. My novice package is also
available over there. I hope that people can focus on actual
programming over there, as an alternative to this nest of vipers that
C.L.F. has become.
Richard Owlett
Persecution complex?
John Passaniti
> By comparison, Alfred's site allows people to upload programs.
> Considering that programming supposedly involves writing programs,
> this emphasis on actual programs makes his site significantly more
> useful than C.L.F..
For professionals-- you know, people who actually derive a living off
creating software-- programming is a relatively small and largely
mechanical part of what we do. If you're doing this as a hobby, then
yeah, programming is what you'll focus on because programming is fun.
And as a hobby, if it doesn't meet other people's needs, then no
problem-- they didn't pay for it. Things change when you're actually
paid to develop software for others. It's then that one's focus turns
towards the *hard* parts of development software: determining
requirements, developing specifications, creating architectures, and
thinking about design. You're also going to be concerned with
effective testing and debugging strategies, thinking about
documentation, deployment, and ongoing maintenance. Ad hoc solutions
you coded up for fun don't really cut it when businesses (and the
people they employ) are at stake.
I used to think like you do. Back when I started in my career, I
thought that programming was all about writing code. That view lasted
up until the time that I saw there were developers who were getting
more done in less time with better quality. At first I make the
mistake that many Forthers make and think it was the language or the
tools that was making them more effective. Turns out that wasn't the
case. Turns out that knowing the problem you're trying to solve (that
is, requirements analysis and specification) is key to not wasting
your time coding functionality you don't need, or having to go back
and rework code that doesn't meet requirements. Turns out that
thinking about architecture and design can give a significant boost in
effectiveness by factoring before you even start writing code, and
knowing how you're going to organize it. In short, *thinking* about
the larger act of developing software verses just one part (writing
code) makes all the difference.
I can understand why you would like comp.lang.forth to focus on just
coding and not the many other aspects of programming. The other
aspects are hard. The other aspects are abstract to hobbyists.
> I have uploaded my slide-rule program to his site and have also set up
> a forum devoted to supporting this program. My novice package is also
> available over there. I hope that people can focus on actual
> programming over there, as an alternative to this nest of vipers that
> C.L.F. has become.
You don't take criticism well. I suggest you stay in the hobbyist
realm, since you wouldn't last doing this professionally in any
engineering team I've ever been a part of.
Brad
> By comparison, Alfred's site allows people to upload programs.
> Considering that programming supposedly involves writing programs,
> this emphasis on actual programs makes his site significantly more
> useful than C.L.F.
MPE is hosting such a site (called FLAG) which was recently announced
and looks like they put some work into it. There's also the
forthfreaks wiki. So throwing together a wiki/blog site and announcing
it here isn't likely to impress. Maybe if you searched the net looking
for good Forth code, collected it, categorized it, got permissions and
hosted it in one place, that would be useful. Kind of like putting out
food for the cats.
> this nest of vipers that C.L.F. has become.
I drive a Volkswagen.
Hugh Aguilar
> For professionals-- you know, people who actually derive a living off
> creating software-- programming is a relatively small and largely
> mechanical part of what we do. If you're doing this as a hobby, then
> yeah, programming is what you'll focus on because programming is fun.
As a rule, I never respond to Passaniti posts --- Passaniti has been
on my twit list ever since he said that my symtab program "sucks." I
will make an exception in this case only for the purpose of correcting
a misstatement. I'm not a hobbyist, I have several years of
professional experience in Forth, various assembly-languages and C/C+
+. When I was employed at Testra, I wrote the MFX cross-compiler for
their MiniForth chip.
> Turns out that knowing the problem you're trying to solve (that
> is, requirements analysis and specification) is key to not wasting
> your time coding functionality you don't need, or having to go back
> and rework code that doesn't meet requirements. Turns out that
> thinking about architecture and design can give a significant boost in
> effectiveness by factoring before you even start writing code, and
> knowing how you're going to organize it. In short, *thinking* about
> the larger act of developing software verses just one part (writing
> code) makes all the difference.
In my work experience, I have found that there are often coworkers who
seem to never actually write any code, but who want to endlessly hold
meetings discussing specifications and design. Forth is actually all
about bottom-up programming, and this worthy idea has now been adopted
by the Agile movement, but these folks seem to be stuck on the
Waterfall paradigm in which everything has to be figured out in minute
detail before a single line of code can be written. These people often
use the word "team" as a verb, and they believe that they are
important team members. They also believe that programming is a purely
mechanical task devoid of any creative aspect. Any programming that
they do, which isn't much, will rely entirely upon cut-and-paste of
existing source-code. They never write code from scratch, although
they are quick to criticize other people's code for being
"unidiomatic," which essentially means that they can't figure out how
it works. I call these people "pilot fish."
My slide-rule program is, IMHO, very readable. It is possible for a
person to put together a custom slide-rule using only cut-and-paste
programming, and without actually knowing any Forth at all. This can
be as simple as taking one of my slide-rules and swapping out the
functions that generate the scales, in order to get a custom layout. A
step up would be to modify the existing scales by labeling particular
marks, or by folding them on a particular mark. There are plenty of
examples to imitate. Another step up would be to write new scales
supporting mathematical functions of your own design. Even this could
be done with only a modicum of Forth knowledge, just by imitating the
dozens scales that I have already written.
There is a place in the world for people with Passaniti's level of
programming ability. I support people like this by making my software
easy enough to work with that it can be upgraded using cut-and-paste
programming. People have to be a lot nicer than Passaniti to get my
support though. These multi-page diatribes of John's just earn him a
place on my twit list. I won't support him.
For any further discussion of computer programming, I ask that
programmers move over to www.forthwiki.com and start threads in those
forums. Note that I define the term "programmers" as: people who write
programs. For the most part, I have stopped posting messages on C.L.F.
--- if you want to respond to any of my posts, or discuss Forth
programming, you will have to move over to Alfred's site. It is a
moderated site, which means that trolls will just get their posts
deleted. You have to focus on Forth programming. Have any of you ever
tried that?
John Passaniti
> As a rule, I never respond to Passaniti posts
No, actually, you do so all the time. You can't help yourself.
> --- Passaniti has been
> on my twit list ever since he said that my symtab program "sucks."
Yes. And people are free to go back to that discussion and judge for
themselves.
I'm delighted that you have had past professional experience. I'm not
sure how your professional past necessarily relates to your current
hobbyist efforts.
> In my work experience, I have found that there are often coworkers who
> seem to never actually write any code, but who want to endlessly hold
> meetings discussing specifications and design. Forth is actually all
> about bottom-up programming, and this worthy idea has now been adopted
> by the Agile movement, but these folks seem to be stuck on the
> Waterfall paradigm in which everything has to be figured out in minute
> detail before a single line of code can be written.
Umm, no. I'm firmly in the agile camp and have years of experience
that tells me that waterfall development methodologies are almost
universally the worst way to create software. Agile methodologies
don't get rid of requirements-- they take the form of "user stories",
they don't throw away specifications and design; they do so
incrementally. Nothing I wrote suggested it's "big design up-front."
What I wrote is that coding is just one part of creating software.
> These people often
> use the word "team" as a verb, and they believe that they are
> important team members. They also believe that programming is a purely
> mechanical task devoid of any creative aspect. Any programming that
> they do, which isn't much, will rely entirely upon cut-and-paste of
> existing source-code. They never write code from scratch, although
> they are quick to criticize other people's code for being
> "unidiomatic," which essentially means that they can't figure out how
> it works. I call these people "pilot fish."
Nice rant. Too bad it doesn't have much to do with what I wrote.
> There is a place in the world for people with Passaniti's level of
> programming ability.
Considering you don't know me and considering you have no idea about
my professional experience or practices, others are free to judge your
ability to cite my "level of programming ability."
> For any further discussion of computer programming, I ask that
> programmers move over towww.forthwiki.comand start threads in those
> forums. Note that I define the term "programmers" as: people who write
> programs. For the most part, I have stopped posting messages on C.L.F.
> --- if you want to respond to any of my posts, or discuss Forth
> programming, you will have to move over to Alfred's site. It is a
> moderated site, which means that trolls will just get their posts
> deleted. You have to focus on Forth programming. Have any of you ever
> tried that?
Actually, comp.lang.forth is usually all about programming. Your
problem is that your narrowly define "programming" as coding. The
rest of us-- again, those of us who make a living writing software--
know that there are lots of other aspects to software development.
Olafur Gunnlaugsson
> If it was spam wouldn't I be trying to make money off of it? I have a
> bunch of sites providing similar features to different groups. Check
> http://www.pqlug.org . Granted they are all things I am interested in,
> but the point is that there is no paid advertising, no trackers, nothing
> hidden or trying to grab your information or money.
>
> My sites are there for people to use (or not use) how they want.
OK, but if you are for real at the least reduce the sites logo size
50% at the least
As it is on smaller screens more than half of the screen is taken up by
the header
or is the site only intended for people with 1900x 1600 capable screens?
Also, do not announce a site before you have anything worth visiting it
for, my tikiwiki already has over 1000 pages and I still have not
announced it since it is still not worthwhile
In general on a wiki or other user contributed sites, people will add to
a subject but almost never start it. So faced with an empty site like
yours they will take it as a joke
Oleksandr Gavenko
> 2. Encourage Forth vendors and significant community members to
> actively blog about Forth. Then, set up a "planet" RSS aggregator
> where people can go to quickly summarize what's new in the world of
> Forth.
--
Best regards!
Brad Eckert
>
> Actually, comp.lang.forth is usually all about programming. Your
> problem is that your narrowly define "programming" as coding. The
> rest of us-- again, those of us who make a living writing software--
> know that there are lots of other aspects to software development.
Steve
going to post if "Anyone want a forth wiki" over at clf and found
this thread by accident. Many people talk about multiple different
techniques and alternatives, but all that will get lost in the group
over time. So a hierarchial structure of articles covering every
technique, and forth language structural alternative, and articles by
experts only, would be great for new comers and the community to read
and learn more, or just to keep track. Simple hierarchial entries of
what it is why is it significant and how does it work etc, for each
concept.
Where ever the place for it is at your old wiki, forthfreak, figforth
or forth.org, I leave that up to you guys. If you want to do
something like what I've suggested, it might pay to nicely ask all
the principles (Stephen, Liz, all the authors of the big forth
versions, Chuck maybe, and the principle standards members and
principle figforth members) to be the content contributors. An
encyclopedia of Forth.
Alfred thanks for your effort.
Steve.
Paul Rubin
> http://www.forthwiki.com
> Cross posting, sorry if you get multiple copies.
purpose of another Forth wiki?
Elizabeth D. Rather
slide rule code, as that's all that's posted there.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Steve
maybe it is better to think about some of the ideas here about what
more could be done with such a site?
I'm trying a few newsreaders here and I am not getting this to come
up in the better one in clf. So I might miss the conversation in clf
if anybody replies, sorry.
Steve.
rickman
> On 6/7/13 8:22 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Alfred <alfr...@REMOVETHISforthwiki.com> writes:
>>> http://www.forthwiki.com
>>> Cross posting, sorry if you get multiple copies.
>>
>> There is already Forthfreak.net which is pretty good. What is the
>> purpose of another Forth wiki?
>>
>
> It appears to be mainly a showcase for Hugh Aguilar's Novice package and
> slide rule code, as that's all that's posted there.
even see the slide rule project. I do see a lot of other potentially
useful info though. I know this thread is pretty old and I don't see
most of it. Did I miss something? Or maybe I missed a lot of things...
I usually do. lol
--
Rick
Elizabeth D Rather
Steve
about.
I saw some confusing posts earlier that said it had 'forth worth' on
the front page, like a domain spam holder, but I can't find any thing
like this, and the posts disappeared.
Steve.
Paul Rubin
>> There is already Forthfreak.net which is pretty good. What is the
>> purpose of another Forth wiki?
> I like Forthfreak, but it dies not go into the detail I was talking
> about.
Forth pages. Why would anyone think making yet another site with almost
no content is going to help?
Steve
an forth encyclopedia, it needs a hundred times more information and
direction to technical break downs of the hundreds, if not thousands,
of concepts going around here and in standards considerations, to
have a repository of technique and customisations out there. At
least forth wiki is called forthwiki. As to no content, hence my
idea, that the principle people of forth could contribute their vast
understanding to building such a resource, like technical manual to
all things forth. For the life of the language left, such a thing
would be handy for novice and expert a like.
Steve.
rickman
> On 6/7/2013 1:09 PM, rickman wrote:
>> On 6/7/2013 2:49 PM, Elizabeth D. Rather wrote:
>>> On 6/7/13 8:22 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>>> Alfred <alfr...@REMOVETHISforthwiki.com> writes:
>>>>> http://www.forthwiki.com
>>>>> Cross posting, sorry if you get multiple copies.
>>>>
>>>> There is already Forthfreak.net which is pretty good. What is the
>>>> purpose of another Forth wiki?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It appears to be mainly a showcase for Hugh Aguilar's Novice package and
>>> slide rule code, as that's all that's posted there.
>>
>> Am I missing something? I looked around at Forthfreak.net and I don't
>> even see the slide rule project. I do see a lot of other potentially
>> useful info though. I know this thread is pretty old and I don't see
>> most of it. Did I miss something? Or maybe I missed a lot of things...
>> I usually do. lol
>>
>
> No, not Forthfreak.net, the Forth wiki linked at the top.
rule project. The list of pages doesn't show anything about the slide
rull project. Not much at all in fact, but that's the point, it is just
getting started. Lots of blank pages to fill in...
--
Rick
Paul Rubin
> There is a lot less at forthwiki.com, but I still don't see the slide
> rule project. The list of pages doesn't show anything about the slide
> rull project.
rickman
why Miss E would not be very enthused to see it at all. Huge is a bit
insane when it comes to Forth Inc and herself.
God, sometimes I wonder what it says about me that I post here... Am I
as crazy as the rest of you?
--
Rick
Elizabeth D. Rather
for "newbies". However, on close inspection, none of Hugh's code is
actually there, just posts from him encouraging people to try it and
discuss.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
Ed
> ...
> as crazy as the rest of you?
Steve
--
----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://www.piaohong.tk/newsgroup
rickman
Boy!
--
Rick