Examples of robots programmed in Forth?
Ron Kneusel
constructing for a medical device. My boss would be more likely to
consider it if I could provide examples of other robots programmed
in Forth.
Anyone have some? Thanks!
Ron Kneusel
rkne...@qwest.net
Ian Yellowley
we have programmed robots and machine tools in FORTH for many
years. We have a new company in Vancouver, BC..see
www.CameleonControls.com/products1
for stuff underway...actually most done.
You can also see previous machines, (I posted this to comp.lang.forth
some 3 or 4 years ago so others please ignore...also beware the
images..lots), and read some stuff about the advantages of FORTH in
machine tool/robot application at
http://robin.mech.ubc.ca/Faculty/Labs/ManLab/Bostonf/bostonf.htm
We are using SwiftForth for the front end to our new FPGA based
educational product. The machine tools in the past have used LMI 32 bit
URForth and the LMI Metacompiler, (the latter for our process monitoring
and PLC activities). We also use TPForth now on the new modular CNC
systems,
regards
ian
ps Our CAM_CAN will also also run from a PPC...soon we hope and under
MOPS...again we hope. (I think you have a MAC leaning...)
Jeff Fox
>
> I have an opportunity at work to promote Forth for a robot we are
> constructing for a medical device. My boss would be more likely to
> consider it if I could provide examples of other robots programmed
> in Forth.
>
> Anyone have some? Thanks!
I can think of about a dozen sites dedicated to
Forth for robotics right off. All those little
bots from Whiskas to ...
My P21/F21 PCB stamp will go in a some things
that I am turning into robots from my car
to some flying models. And I will use various
AI software in Forth. But these are not commercial
projects, the projects are personal. The small
computer stamp is similar to other small embedded
computers in other robots but it is a different
kind of Forth CPU. The silicon is virtual
Forth machine so the rest of the software on
top of that is pretty trivial. But finding
the robotics links in the 2GB at my site
might not be too easy. I have the history
of a bunch of people's projects for 15
years, megabytes of HTML and gigabytes of
video. And only a few pages really related
to robotics.
Some other embedded computers used in robotics
have microcontrollers with Forth in ROM and
are similar in look or size or power to the
stamp I am working on.
I can think of a dozen Forth robotic sites
but I do not know of a single page anywhere
with all the references. Does anyone else?
A robot medical device? Should I ask?
Not nanoprobes I hope? ;-)
Roelf Toxopeus
commercial and not.
the dutch FIG has a class creating Sumo wrestlers,
and it's chair is very into robots ask Willem Ouwerkerk
http://www.forth.hccnet.nl/
Intelligent Robot homepage:,
http://www.angelusresearch.com/
Robots at Taygeta, chance they use Forth,
http://www.taygeta.com/robotics.html
Jeff Fox at UltraTrchnology,
http://www.UltraTechnology.com/
Lego of course,
http://www.hempeldesigngroup.com/lego/pbFORTH/
your boss might like this:
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/outreach/summercamp2000/update1.html
There was a site with a special link for Forth and Robots, but I can't
find it, sorry. There must be much more...
-Roelf
Julian V. Noble
> A robot medical device? Should I ask?
>
> Not nanoprobes I hope? ;-)
Maybe an autodoc. Given the blase attitude of my PCP,
it could be an advance ;-)
--
Julian V. Noble
Professor of Physics
j...@virginia.edu
Galileo's Commandment:
"Science knows only one commandment: contribute to science."
-- Bertolt Brecht, "Galileo".
Jeff Fox
> Maybe an autodoc. Given the blase attitude of my PCP,
> it could be an advance ;-)
An expert system in Forth? Combine that with an
agent interface, mobile holographic projection and
now you have a product. ;-)
Feel lucky that you have a PCP. :-o
D De Villiers
O'Boy! Today I am 20 yrs old (b-day 8 Dec. 1981) and really feel like a
*dummy* between all u experts -- U are all talking about things that I just
don't know (or have trouble finding any resources for)...Programming robots
etc etc Things I never even done before!
Regards,
Lennie De Villiers
--- Remove ~ and 9s from e-mail address to reply ---
"Jeff Fox" <f...@UltraTechnology.com> wrote in message
news:3C10FECE...@UltraTechnology.com...
D De Villiers
I know about a NASA spacecraft called NEAR (Spacecraft's can be seen has
robots - In a way!) use to land on the Eros "near-earth asteroid." The
complete command and data handling system were programmed in Forth.
See July 2001, Issue 112 of ForthWriter for an artical by Joe Anderson
- http://www.fig-uk.org/new4th.htm
or http://www.figuk.plus.com/articles/issue112.pdf (Direct download).
Very Cool ! ;-)
Chris Jakeman
wrote:
>I have an opportunity at work to promote Forth for a robot we are
>constructing for a medical device. My boss would be more likely to
>consider it if I could provide examples of other robots programmed
>in Forth.
>
>Anyone have some? Thanks!
There is also Royce Instruments who supply robots for assembly work
(eg handling circuit boards)
Bye for now ____/ / __ / / / / /
/ / / _/ / / / /
Chris Jakeman __/ / / __ / / /_/
/ / / / / / / \
[To reply, please __/ __/ ____/ ___/ __/ _\
unspam my address]
Forth Interest Group United Kingdom
Voice +44 (0)1733 753489 chapter at http://www.fig-uk.org
Ron Kneusel
Jeff Fox wrote:
> A robot medical device? Should I ask?
>
> Not nanoprobes I hope? ;-)
Unfortunately, no. No nanoprobes nor Seven of Nine to go with them! :(
Ron
Ron Kneusel
helpful.
If successful I'll let the group know (for whomever might be interested)
Ron
Jeff Fox
have not gone broken over the years. I have
links to Forth robots, Forth hardware/software
vendors with appropriate hardware/software,
to robot part vendors, and some people with
ideas and software and essays and a list of
some of my robotic projects.
Mostly just catagorized links, a fast read.
http://www.UltraTechnology.com/robolist.htm
I did not intentionally leave anyone out.
Some of my old links were broken or I may
not know of your work. Send me more links
if you want. Take mine and add them to
your pages. Link to mine, etc. I put
some of my favorite robot links there.
It starts with a FAQ then Forth Lego then
.... and naturally ;-) ends with my stuff
as the works in progress will get more
pages later.
people, essays
Julian V. Noble
>
> PCP ????
>
> O'Boy! Today I am 20 yrs old (b-day 8 Dec. 1981) and really feel like a
> *dummy* between all u experts -- U are all talking about things that I just
> don't know (or have trouble finding any resources for)...Programming robots
> etc etc Things I never even done before!
>
> Regards,
>
> Lennie De Villiers
-- Lao Tze (I think)
D De Villiers
> If successful I'll let the group know (for whomever might be interested)
I'm interested! I've read that Forth is use for programming robots,
including the NEAR spacecraft etc. But for medical devices - This I must see
!! :-)
Jeff Fox
79. In the early days many satelites and space probes
used the first CMOS and first rad-hard silicon on saphire
CPU, variants of the 1802. The chip had a very odd
instruction set and needed threaded Forth to do much,
it took 40 opcodes to do a call/return, but had 16
16 bit registers that each could be the program counter
or stack pointers or parts of the a Forth virtual machine.
So a lot of old stuff was full of little modules with
1802 and Forth. It all worked very nicely not like the
latest generations of failed technology sent to mars.
Deep space probes are almost autonmous robots because
the further away they get the less communications
bandwidth available and the more autonomous functionality
is needed.
Yoyagers were full of Forth. So not only do they
contain the gold recording for Aliens to understand
humans, they contain lots of Forth too. Since one
Voyager has left the solar system I have said for
years that Forth has to be the most far out language.
Its billions of miles further out there and the first
thing we sent to aliens to tell them about us.
Russian technology is also full of Forth. They were
shooting something into space on a daily basis for
decades. Lots of Forth up there... They get it.
I have wondered about the simulator for the Shuttle
robot arm that was programmed for Nasa by Forth Inc.
I have wondered if it could get released into the
public domain. It might form the basis of a nice
robot simulator with a Forth scripting language
that would carry the professional and scientific
image that Forth Inc. has earned by doing
projects like that.
But I had nothing to do with it and don't know if
it could be released, who owns it, how hard it would
be to rework it into an educational robot programming
project platform. It is just an idea that I have
had. I have shuttle operational manuals, but they
don't cover the use of the robot arm manipulator.
I did work with some guys from Russia commercializing
from the former days as weapons designers. These guys
did the simulators for Sukoi, the real ones, so they
had the experience and all the numbers to write really
nice PC games like their SU-27 simulator. I when you
pull moves like the cobra on the American planes
they work better than in the simulators written here.
Their game was the biggest selling PC game in England
at one time.
Anyway, perhaps Elizabeth will be able to tell us
more about the Shuttle Robot Arm Simulator that
they wrote for Nasa and if there is any way
that it might be commercialized into a game or
used to promote Forth via robots in some way
other than being one of Forth Inc.'s many
success stories.
Jeff Fox
Jerry Avins
There is a line of welding controllers programmed in Forth. I forget who
sells them, but some here might remember. I consider programmable
industrial welders to be robots. At least they are called that in the
automotive industry.
Many machine programs implemented with Forth don't show it, anymore than
it's evident what language is behind a spreadsheet. With Forth, one
develops an application language specific to a machine or class of
machines. The user deals with the machine pretty much on its own terms.
When I worked at RCA Laboratories, I was part of a consulting and
odd-job group that I helped start. We did hardware and software, and
once I was asked to program an assembly robot marketed by IBM. I
proposed to do it in Forth, and the project leader decided that he
didn't want anyone who would consider Forth connected with his robot, no
matter what language I would ultimately condescend to use. He bought
IBM's Robot Control Language, and proceeded to program the robot
himself. From time to time, he he needed operations that the language
didn't provide for, and got extensions to the language rather promptly.
One day, he was told that the language was no longer supported: bugs (if
any) would be fixed, but no more extensions. Somehow, he (or RCA's
lawyers) talked IBM into providing source code. Surprise! It was Forth!
Not only did I give him the extensions he needed (after he ate crow), I
ported the code to one of my Z-80 PolyForth-on-bare-iron
quick-turnaround control systems, providing a much improved operator
interface.
Forth and robots go back a long way. Even IBM chose it.
Jerry
--
When a discovery is new, people say, "It isn't true."
When it becomes demonstrably true, they say, "It isn't useful."
Later, when its utility is evident, they say, "So what? It's old."
a paraphrase of William James
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Chanson
"Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:3C17BD13...@ieee.org...
>
> When I worked at RCA Laboratories, I was part of a consulting and
> odd-job group that I helped start. We did hardware and software, and
> once I was asked to program an assembly robot marketed by IBM. I
> proposed to do it in Forth, and the project leader decided that he
> didn't want anyone who would consider Forth connected with his robot, no
> matter what language I would ultimately condescend to use. He bought
> IBM's Robot Control Language, and proceeded to program the robot
> himself. From time to time, he he needed operations that the language
> didn't provide for, and got extensions to the language rather promptly.
> One day, he was told that the language was no longer supported: bugs (if
> any) would be fixed, but no more extensions. Somehow, he (or RCA's
> lawyers) talked IBM into providing source code. Surprise! It was Forth!
> Not only did I give him the extensions he needed (after he ate crow), I
> ported the code to one of my Z-80 PolyForth-on-bare-iron
> quick-turnaround control systems, providing a much improved operator
> interface.
It's not often that you can feed crow to your boss, and it's SO much fun
when it happens!
--
-GJC
-gcha...@shore.net
-War is the last resort of the incompetent.
Jerry Avins
There is a line of welding controllers programmed in Forth. I forget who
sells them, but some here might remember. I consider programmable
industrial welders to be robots. At least they are called that in the
automotive industry.
Many machine programs implemented with Forth don't show it, any more
than it's evident what language is behind a spreadsheet. With Forth, one
develops an application language specific to a machine or class of
machines. The user deals with the machine pretty much on its own terms.
When I worked at RCA Laboratories, I was part of a consulting and
odd-job group that I helped start. We did hardware and software, and
once I was asked to program an assembly robot marketed by IBM. I
proposed to do it in Forth, and the project leader decided that he
didn't want anyone who would consider Forth connected with his robot, no
matter what language I would ultimately condescend to use. He bought
IBM's Robot Control Language, and proceeded to program the robot
himself. From time to time, he he needed operations that the language
didn't provide for, and got extensions to the language rather promptly.
One day, he was told that the language was no longer supported: bugs (if
any) would be fixed, but no more extensions. Somehow, he (or RCA's
lawyers) talked IBM into providing source code. Surprise! It was Forth!
Not only did I give him the extensions he needed (after he ate crow), I
ported the code to one of my Z-80 PolyForth-on-bare-iron
quick-turnaround control systems, providing a much improved operator
interface.
Forth and robots go back a long way. Even IBM chose Forth for theirs.
William Stewart
I wonder if you are thinking of http://www.cypressweld.com
and the very active FORTH programmer, Anil N. Rodrigues,
aro...@weld.com?
Nice people!
Jerry Avins
>
> Jerry:
> I wonder if you are thinking of http://www.cypressweld.com
> and the very active FORTH programmer, Anil N. Rodrigues,
> aro...@weld.com?
> Nice people!
>
and Google drew a blank I thought I had misremembered. Thanks for the
link, Bill.
Jerry
--
Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Pelc
<~ddevil...@lando.co.za> wrote:
>I'm interested! I've read that Forth is use for programming robots,
>including the NEAR spacecraft etc. But for medical devices - This I must see
>!! :-)
anaesthetic ventilator ... the device may be controlled by
an 80x86 Forth supplied by MPE. And the US FDA documentation
may have been produced by MPE's DOCGEN/SC directly from the
Forth source code.
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, s...@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
Arthur T. Murray
>
> Jerry:
> I wonder if you are thinking of http://www.cypressweld.com
> and the very active FORTH programmer, Anil N. Rodrigues,
> aro...@weld.com?
> Nice people!
>
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>> Ron Kneusel wrote:
>> >
>> > I have an opportunity at work to promote Forth for
>> > a robot we are constructing for a medical device.
>> > My boss would be more likely to consider it if I
>> > could provide examples of other robots programmed
>> > in Forth.
>> >
>> > Anyone have some? Thanks!
I, too, would like to have URLs for Forth robots and even
any public-domain Forth "Motorium" source code for use at
http://mind.sourceforge.net/forth.html "Open Source AI".
>> >
>> > Ron Kneusel
>> > rkne...@qwest.net
>> [...]
>> There is a line of welding controllers programmed in Forth.
>> I forget who sells them, but some here might remember. I
>> consider programmable industrial welders to be robots.
>> At least they are called that in the automotive industry.
>> [... upthread anecdote...]
>> [...] Somehow, he (or RCA's lawyers) talked IBM into providing
>> source code. Surprise! It was Forth! Not only did I give him
>> the extensions he needed (after he ate crow), I ported the code
>> to one of my Z-80 PolyForth-on-bare-iron quick-turnaround
>> control systems, providing a much improved operator interface.
>>
>> Forth and robots go back a long way. Even IBM chose Forth for theirs.
>>
>> Jerry [...]
Arthur T. Murray, http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/
--
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/jsaimind.html -- JavaScript AI;
http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mind4th.html "Mind.Forth Robot AI";
The first-ever Mentifex post (28 January 1985 in net.ai) on Usenet:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&th=d9098e459276596f&rnum=1
Clint O'Connor
telescope guidance systems were programmed in Forth. However, I'm not
actively aware of any at the moment since I haven't followed Forth for
awhile. It's an area to look for examples, however.
Clint
Austin, TX
"Arthur T. Murray" <uj...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:3c18...@news.victoria.tc.ca...
st...@vancouverislandrobotics.org
http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/
and specifically:
http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/tiny4th.htm
His book has some forth examples in it too...
HTH
Steve