Q: State of Forth IDE's?
Dirk-Ulrich Heise
As Forth is the simplest high level language i know
of, i would expect that it's easier to write a really
comfortable IDE for it, than for, say, C++.
With IDE, i mean something like a browser, a
debugger (including some way to let your
program run in a simulated test environment),
a project management facility, refactoring tools
etc. united in one environment.
This is just a curious question, and i don't care
on which platform such a thing would run. or
whether it's free or commercial - what's the
most advanced IDE for Forth? (Well okay,
i suspect a better word in the Forth context
would be "what's the most advanced Forth
development environment" - you know what
i mean. Every Forth development environment
is "integrated" by itself, being a Forth.)
I'm not asking this to start a flame war, i'm
just interested in what's possible today. And
i've got *no own opinion* about it! Tell me yours!
--
Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise
h...@adtranzsig.de
dhe...@debitel.net
Marcel Hendrix
news:8spmat$i0t$1...@desig-bs01-s04.adtranzsig.de...
> As Forth is the simplest high level language i know
> of, i would expect that it's easier to write a really
> comfortable IDE for it, than for, say, C++.
[..]
> I'm not asking this to start a flame war, i'm
> just interested in what's possible today. And
> i've got *no own opinion* about it! Tell me yours!
But you *do* have a definite opinion: you think an
IDE will make work with Forth easier.
Ok, tools I have in iForth I couldn't do without:
- a commandline with persistent history and auto
completion (Tab)
- a NEEDS mechanism that works
- automatic completion of file names (Ctrl-PageDown)
- customized (standard!) editor callable from within
Forth words
- command, graphic and mini-editor terminal windows as
independent threads (so there is no lock-up when Forth
is computing -- an unfortunate characteristic shown by
most current commercial offerings)
- boiler-plate creation of program files
- Smart FORGET mechanism (resetting vectored words etc.)
- PRIVATE words
- online HELP, .ABOUT mechanism for user files
- hierarchical list of loaded modules
- warnings for non ANS words being used (you can switch
this off :-)
- standard output of OS commands goes to terminal window
- cut and paste of any text (also under program control)
- international keyboard support
Probably forgot some.
-marcel
Leo Wong
"Dirk-Ulrich Heise" <h...@adtranzsig.de> wrote:
> i've got *no own opinion* about it! Tell me yours!
The Forth I most enjoy using is: Pygmy Forth.
--
Leo Wong he...@albany.net
http://www.albany.net/~hello/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Walter Rottenkolber
Dirk-Ulrich Heise wrote in message
<8spmat$i0t$1...@desig-bs01-s04.adtranzsig.de>...
>Hi!
>As Forth is the simplest high level language i know
>of, i would expect that it's easier to write a really
>comfortable IDE for it, than for, say, C++.
>
>debugger (including some way to let your
>program run in a simulated test environment),
>a project management facility, refactoring tools
>etc. united in one environment.
>
Actually, Forth is the original IDE system. The language is just the
simplest way to communicate with the system. Forth is designed as an
extensible compiler. You create programs by adding to a core dictionary of
Words. So if you want an IDE as a PDE (program developement environment),
just add the features you want.
Most Forths come with source to make a useful IDE. Commercial systems are
more complete, of course. And you can fine tune it to work your way. Haven't
heard of a project management facility in a public domain forth, though.
Even simple forths can be quite credible. I have a F83 forth (circa 1984)
that uses Screens (like programming on 3 by 5 cards) that is just 36 KB. It
has been modified to have a full featured screen editor that will let me
write, modify, and move code. Has a debugger, disassembler, assembler,
pretty print routines, source finder (view), trace, etc.
Newer Forths use files so they are more familiar to use. Check out F-PC
(DOS), Win32 forth, gForth, etc. to investigate the IDE features they have.
You can find these and others at the FIG ftp site at www.taygeta,com .
Walter Rottenkolber
jmd...@my-deja.com
"Dirk-Ulrich Heise" <h...@adtranzsig.de> wrote:
> As Forth is the simplest high level language i know
> of, i would expect that it's easier to write a really
> comfortable IDE for it, than for, say, C++.
>
> With IDE, i mean something like a browser, a
> debugger (including some way to let your
> program run in a simulated test environment),
> a project management facility, refactoring tools
> etc. united in one environment.
As others have pointed many Forths come with what could be an "IDE".
Certainly what is expected in a modern IDE has changed much since Turbo
Pascal really popularized the idea. The Forth that comes the closest
to emulating the "Visual C++" style IDE is the freely available TPForth.
http://www.technopoint.net/tpforth/index.html
It has syntax-highlighting, intergrated source-level debugger, project
files ect. Of course Win32Forth has syntax-highlighting, souce-level
debugging ect., but it doesn't LOOK like Visual C++. bigForth has a
GUI builder as well as an object-browser. At times I like Win32Forth
better, at times I like TPForth better. Sometimes TPForth seems
to "get in the way". For example, if I just want to write and test a
simple word this is easier to do win Win32Forth or bigForth. In
TPForth you have to put up more "scaffolding" to test even a simple
word. (note the scaffolding isn't much but it's still not as simple as
just executing the word from the command line.) I also like the IDE
that comes with HolonForth. http://www.holonforth.com/
>
> This is just a curious question, and i don't care
> on which platform such a thing would run. or
> whether it's free or commercial - what's the
> most advanced IDE for Forth? (Well okay,
> i suspect a better word in the Forth context
> would be "what's the most advanced Forth
> development environment" - you know what
> i mean. Every Forth development environment
> is "integrated" by itself, being a Forth.)
>
> I'm not asking this to start a flame war, i'm
> just interested in what's possible today. And
> i've got *no own opinion* about it! Tell me yours!
> --
> Dipl.Inform. Dirk-Ulrich Heise
> h...@adtranzsig.de
> dhe...@debitel.net
>
>
--
Guns don't kill people...bullets do.
Stephen Pelc
>debugger (including some way to let your
>program run in a simulated test environment),
>a project management facility, refactoring tools
>etc. united in one environment.
for people used to a Visual C style of environment, and the Studio
and DFX debugger are a Forth integration. You can try it with our
free download version.
--
Stephen Pelc, s...@mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)2380 631441, fax: +44 (0)2380 339691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free ProForth downloads!
Elizabeth D. Rather
news:8spmat$i0t$1...@desig-bs01-s04.adtranzsig.de...
> As Forth is the simplest high level language i know
> of, i would expect that it's easier to write a really
> comfortable IDE for it, than for, say, C++.
>
> debugger (including some way to let your
> program run in a simulated test environment),
> a project management facility, refactoring tools
> etc. united in one environment.
>
> on which platform such a thing would run. or
> whether it's free or commercial - what's the
> most advanced IDE for Forth? (Well okay,
> i suspect a better word in the Forth context
> would be "what's the most advanced Forth
> development environment" - you know what
> i mean. Every Forth development environment
> is "integrated" by itself, being a Forth.)
In our experience, a "comfortable" Forth IDE has
slightly different requirements from and IDE for a
language that isn't as naturally interactive as Forth.
Both our SwiftForth (for Windows programming)
and SwiftX cross-compilers for embedded systems
have a very extensive list of programmer support
features, all aimed at facilitating the interactive
programming experience. The best way to see
how it works is to try it; there's a free SwiftForth
evaluation system at www.forth.com.
Cheers,
Elizabeth