computerized courtroom steno machines...entry at rates way beyond qwerty or dvorak keyboards
peekay
"computerized courtroom steno machines.
They use 27 key chorded keyboards and allow
entry at rates way beyond qwerty or dvorak
keyboards"
strangely, the shorthand script by pitman was
introduced in a small gathering by distributing
a small leaflet .. and it became very widely used
the usa courtroom stenographers use gregg
shorthand .. and the steno machines have
chorded keyboards where several keys need
to be pressed together for recording spoken
words
i always wonder about the wisdom of writing
in 'longhand' .. i.e. normal characters .. when
courtrooms rely on steno machines for
recording on paper (inaccuracies cannot be
accepted in courtrooms !)
if high speed recording on paper/computer
can be done in usa's courtrooms, what's the
problem in doing exactly the same in usa's
classrooms ?
savings of billions of man-hours by using this
much faster input method would make us all
soooo much happier.
AND
when will the stupidity of QWERTY on PC's stop ??
Coos Haak
<snip>
> when will the stupidity of QWERTY on PC's stop ??
Have you thought about the French AZERTY and the German QUERTZ
keyboards?
I am quite happy with my QUERTY keyboard and the twelve keys on my
cell phone. Why change it?
My mother could write steno (shorthand as it is called here), I can't
read it.
--
Coos
CHForth, 16 bit DOS applications
http://home.hccnet.nl/j.j.haak/forth.html
Richard Russell
> savings of billions of man-hours by using this
> much faster input method would make us all
> soooo much happier.
It's been done:
http://www.bellaire.demon.co.uk/bellaire_cykey.html
I've still got, and used to be able to use (although never very
proficiently), its predecessor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter
(in its cut-down Quinkey keyboard form).
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
Bernd Paysan
> Have you thought about the French AZERTY and the German QUERTZ
> keyboards?
The German QUERTZ keyboard is horribly for programming - all the "good"
keys are only reachable with AltGr+some key on the wrong side (on the
same side as AltGr, which is counter the idea of touch-typing - modifier
with one hand, key with the other).
The downside of QUERTY is that it has even more troubles with Umlauts
;-). For some time, I used a QUERTY keyboard at work (came with a Sun),
and a Quertz keyboard at home, and the switchover was easy enough to
remember, but in general, I much prefer QUERTZ for writing German texts.
> I am quite happy with my QUERTY keyboard and the twelve keys on my
> cell phone. Why change it?
The 12 keys on the cell phone are good for entering numbers, but quite
bad for entering texts.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
peekay
hello coos
"I am quite happy with my QUERTY keyboard and the twelve keys on my
cell phone. Why change it? "
a very valid and important question !
there are three viewpoints to any issue :
mine, yours, correctOne
from my and your viewpoints, QWERTY is what we
have been using .. my speed is blazingly fast
with my touch typing .. BUT that habit is a
carry over from 40 years ago when i learnt
on a typewriter .. probably you are also
quite fast on the qwerty
BUT consider this -
all the little boys and girls are very
proficient with the alphabet but not
with qwerty sequence .. it is simpler
for them to have an alphabetic keyboard
to begin using computers
also, there are many many old people who
never use a computer just because it is
sooo difficult to "write" paragraphs
as they are not proficient in the QWERTY
lastly, the alphabetic would be an
'option' qwerty would also exist (as a
standard or option)
"My mother could write steno (shorthand as it is called here), I
can't
read it"
in europe, the popular shorthand is pitman's ..
verify from her to be sure
the issue here is this - neither can many read
russian or greek even though their alphabets
correspond exactly (almost) with our english alphabet
it is a matter of having learnt the script
one good thing about shorthand (as opposed to
russian/greek) is that it uses simple strokes
like / | \ ( ) - and shades (dark/light) to
represent 'syllables' .. and THAT is what
makes it easy to write with great speed !
AND there is a large collection of short forms
for commonly used words
learning C++ is much much more difficult and
time taking than learning pitman's shorthand
hello richard
"It's been done:
http://www.bellaire.demon.co.uk/bellaire_cykey.html
I've still got, and used to be able to use (although
never very proficiently), its predecessor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter
(in its cut-down Quinkey keyboard form)"
it IS an excellent method, especially the cute
device AGENDA .. with the easy 5 finger input
system .. but these devices don't write in
shorthand :-( .. "shorthand" is what i meant
by "this much faster input method"
do you have an agenda ? perhaps it could be
reprogrammed to output syllables with chording
key-pressing ?
hello bernd
"The 12 keys on the cell phone are good for entering numbers, but
quite
bad for entering texts."
i strongly suggest you enable the T9 method of
input on your cellphone .. it is amazingly fast !
for "computer" you normally would have to press -
222 666 6 7 88 8 33 777
with T9 you would have to press -
2 6 6 7 8 8 3 7
and the s/w would translate that to the word !
lesser keys, faster inputting, no QWERTY !
i am still looking for a T9 method on the numberpad
of the pc's keyboard .. no one is making it !
Richard Russell
> i am still looking for a T9 method on the numberpad
> of the pc's keyboard .. no one is making it !
A cellphone keypad layout is:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
whereas a PC's numeric keypad layout is:
7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3
Would you allocate the letters to the same numbers, or to the same
positions?
MarkWills
all the little boys and girls are very
proficient with the alphabet but not
with qwerty sequence .. it is simpler
for them to have an alphabetic keyboard
to begin using computers
And? What's wrong with having to *learn* something?
My children, (youngest, 8) especially my daughter is blazing fast on a
QWERTY. It's a case of having to learn. There's nothing wrong with
learning something. A week will see someone fully familiarised with a
QWERTY (or any other) keyboard layout.
Why do we always need to dumb down to make things 'simpler'? Why can't
we (as a society in general, actually) just accept that some things
just have to be *learned*?
We see the same things in software development academia. It used to be
that one learned assembly language, OP-codes, mnemonics, what an
accumulator was for, registers, hex, binary, bits, etc. Now in college
(maybe not so much University, but certainly in UK colleges) there are
no 'low level' courses. It's Java. Abstracted away from the hardware,
because 'it's too complicated'. "You don't need to know that stuff."
Makes me wonder who will be writing the compilers of the future, when
the current generation is too old!
Oh dear. I've gone off on a rant, changing the subject from keyboards
to software. Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack!
;-)
Bernd Paysan
> Makes me wonder who will be writing the compilers of the future, when
> the current generation is too old!
The freaks, as usual.
pks india
> On 9 Nov, 06:18, peekay <pksharmakolk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > i am still looking for a T9 method on the numberpad
> > of the pc's keyboard .. no one is making it !
>
> A cellphone keypad layout is:
>
> 1 2 3
> 4 5 6
> 7 8 9
>
> whereas a PC's numeric keypad layout is:
>
> 7 8 9
> 4 5 6
> 1 2 3
>
> Would you allocate the letters to the same numbers, or to the same
> positions?
>
> To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
same numbers to maintain abc on 2, def on 3, etc
and same database for number-equivalents
of words (a work already done for cellphones for
many many languages) which is referred to for
displaying the words
this app will revolutionize word processing ..
especially if the T9 method of cellphones
along with its word prediction is made available
on computers !
pks india
i am answering in a constructive spirit
(not beligerent or senseless opposing) -
> <snip>
> all the little boys and girls are very
> proficient with the alphabet but not
> with qwerty sequence .. it is simpler
> for them to have an alphabetic keyboard
> to begin using computers
> </snip>
>
> And? What's wrong with having to *learn* something ?
nothing wrong at all ! personally i have designed
AND learnt alphabetic layout, vowel-based layout,
1-hand layout, sanskrit layout, hindi layout,
number-pad-based sanskrit layout, transliteration
based pc-keyboard layout and the T9 method on the
cellphone too
i am in the process of designing a pitman's
shorthand-characters-based keyboard layout
only for english, hindi, sanskrit
as you might have concluded, these designs
and the man-hours spent in mastering them
are because these are *needed*
a qwerty's ONLY raison de etre is a carry
over from the age of typewriter .. it is a
fact of life for now, and so MUST be learnt !
> My children, (youngest, 8) especially my daughter is blazing fast on a
> QWERTY.
kids are geniuses .. the older you get, the
slower becomes the picking up ability .. and
the stronger the tendency to avoid upgrading
to newer and better things
i guess that your little geniuses will be
even more proficient on the cellphone's
12 keys .. i watch with amazement when some
school/college kids chat on their cells
(when they don't want their talking to be
over-heard)
and kids will pick up the logic-based
alphabetic layout in even lesser time
than they took for the non-logical qwerty
> It's a case of having to learn. There's nothing wrong with
> learning something. A week will see someone fully familiarised with a
> QWERTY (or any other) keyboard layout.
the alphabetic layout takes a few minutes to
understand, is easy to remember .. speed is
a function of hours of practice .. qwerty is
neither easy to understand, nor easy to
remember .. THAT is the problem with qwerty
> Why do we always need to dumb down to make things 'simpler'?
oops .. that's the whole philosophy of forth ..
factoring ! simplifying ! qwerty is not a
*need* for the entire population to learn
.. it is a tradition for those used to it
to continue .. going 12 keys on cellphone
with T9 is not dumbing down .. it is a the
next step
> Why can't
> we (as a society in general, actually) just accept that some things
> just have to be *learned*?
because we tend to think and question ..
and invent things like forth to control
spacecraft, robots, critical medical/airport
controlling s/w for which the mighty
windows is a disastrous solution
it is natural to *learn* what is wrong
and set it right .. with time, the old
faithfuls (typewriter, morse, telex,
telegram) have to be un-learned
> We see the same things in software development academia. It used to be
> that one learned assembly language, OP-codes, mnemonics, what an
> accumulator was for, registers, hex, binary, bits, etc. Now in college
> (maybe not so much University, but certainly in UK colleges) there are
> no 'low level' courses. It's Java. Abstracted away from the hardware,
> because 'it's too complicated'. "You don't need to know that stuff."
>
> Makes me wonder who will be writing the compilers of the future, when
> the current generation is too old!
this IS sad situation .. everywhere big
businesses are fighting for controlling
the products, s/w, OS'es used by people
forth, colorForth, OKAD II, GA32/40, Haypress2
are steps which will take us forward into the
past (omiting the deadwood and concentrating
on minimalistic opcodes which AVOID getting
into a mess of million-line coding flavours !)
>
> Oh dear. I've gone off on a rant, changing the subject from keyboards
> to software. Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack!
when the learned talk, a bit of freedom to
think and rant is in order
(did i do it too ?)
>
> ;-)
MarkWills
Dear PKS India
Thank you for your post. I *learned* an alternative point of view
while reading it, and I enjoyed it!
Regards
Mark.
Wayne
wrote:
> hello mark
>
> i am answering in a constructive spirit
> (not beligerent or senseless opposing) -
>
>> <snip>
Still the senseless use of bandwidth on a dead off list subject. Mark my
previous words, what is revolutionary is the fact that users tend not to
be, and fitting in with their capabilities tends to work out better. We
have what we have, because the dial pad had 12 keys, not because we liked
it. On list, I actually have thought about implementing a limited key
programming environment a fair bit, I still might do it if there is a
point, and alternative natural language entry systems, even on game
control pads. Was looking at working out a new alphabet and language
systems that I thought might be also a good idea for vocal control of
computers, as the language is very concise, denominative (is that the
word) deterministic as need be, but also eventually aims to be elegant,
naturalistic musical and poetic as need be (those are the difficult ones
to balance in with the others) and you would speak it faster and shorter
than most ancient languages (why eliminate words, when you can roll
sentences into a word, and words into...). But as Chuck has already
concluded, it gets a bit inconvenient. The mark of a true genius (or
somebody that just fluked it out) is figuring a way around these problems
to a very good solution, if one exists, to obtain perfect balance (my
personal philosophy). So, there is something worth talking about and
attempting with a 12 key keypad.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
peekay
wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:05:38 +1000, pks india <pksharmain...@gmail.com>
probably this is an uncharted territory for most
but surely is an interesting line of thought
wayne :
"Was looking at working out a new alphabet and language
systems that I thought might be also a good idea for vocal control
of
computers, as the language is very concise, (etc)..."
correct me if i am wrong .. are you saying that
you "was looking at working out a new alphabet"
meaning you already have thought and worked out
a few proposable letters for a new alphabet ?
"and language systems" .. same question ..
proposable language(s) ?
"for vocal control of computers" .. again
do you have some idea(s) of the 'good idea'
for vocal control ?
i don't feel or think, but am sure that
these are steps in the right direction ..
but i'll comment when i get reply to make
sure i didn't misunderstand your words
Bill Marcum
>
> i always wonder about the wisdom of writing
> in 'longhand' .. i.e. normal characters .. when
> courtrooms rely on steno machines for
> recording on paper (inaccuracies cannot be
> accepted in courtrooms !)
>
taught for taking notes in class, but I don't think it caught on.
Wayne
wrote:
> On Nov 10, 9:23 pm, Wayne <news_putmynamehere...@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:05:38 +1000, pks india <pksharmain...@gmail.com>
>> >> <snip>
> probably this is an uncharted territory for most
> but surely is an interesting line of thought
>
> wayne :
> "Was looking at working out a new alphabet and language
> systems that I thought might be also a good idea for vocal control
> of
> computers, as the language is very concise, (etc)..."
>
> correct me if i am wrong .. are you saying that
> you "was looking at working out a new alphabet"
> meaning you already have thought and worked out
> a few proposable letters for a new alphabet ?
Yes a system, and through my research I have identified a somewhat simular
subsystem already in the western alphabet, somebody in history might/must
have reformed the letters on this system. I want to write about it one
day. I do not want to talk too much about it because of the opportunity
to write about it, and potential patentability.
> "and language systems" .. same question ..
> proposable language(s) ?
Well, language composed based on overlapping systems.
> "for vocal control of computers" .. again
> do you have some idea(s) of the 'good idea'
> for vocal control ?
Well, as I said concise and connotative, and also designed to cover the
length and breadth of passable human vocalization. But objectives, and
reality are often two different things, and until I create the entire
system it is hard to say what all the glitches are that may turn up. So,
no reason to get too excited yet. Would have been wonderful to do a lot
of language learning and research, but you can only study a limited amount
of things. One thing I did find interesting, is that I had a short clip
of bushmen talking on my pvr for ages, I could identify a number of
different language groups, Asian, African, European vocalization styles in
the language. As it was an film trying to prove an evolutionary language
theory, I can't be certain if the sample was not deliberately setup to
portray these characteristics to support there point of view. I see a lot
of biase stuff on TV and in science, and it means I have to unfortunately
eb very skeptical.
> i don't feel or think, but am sure that
> these are steps in the right direction ..
> but i'll comment when i get reply to make
> sure i didn't misunderstand your words
Yes, they are, because it becomes a universal language that is easy for
computers to interpret and process, but also for humans to use, a dream
more so than many things I discuss around here, practical maybe, but still
just a dream, and outside of what I have already said really off topic and
not worth defocussing in this forum pass it use in computers. I love
aside discussions myself, but it simply gets to be too many messages for
off topic ones. I also wish things were broken down into a non-advanced
forth news group for simpler questions, and an very advanced one for
difficult questions and debate, to separate out the fewer advanced topics.
Thanks
Wayne