Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific Forth from being lost

[mike...@gmail.com]

The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group, organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.

[Matthias Koch]

This book is available in my university library.
Thinking Forth got a first-class digitalisation, but a simple scan could be done.
Is anyone else interested in it ?

Matthias

[Paul E Bennett]

I have, today, sent an email to Graeme Dunbar who was, according to the web-
site, the Fig-UK librarian. The book is in the list there but as the group
as an entity has been a bit defunct for a number of years I am unsure of the
state-of play with the collection.

There are probably other books in the list that should be receiving the same
treatment.

<http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=forth;id=46;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.figuk.plus.com%2Findex.htm>


--
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Paul E. Bennett IEng MIET.....<email://Paul_E....@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy.............<http://www.hidecs.co.uk>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
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[Mark Wills]

I'd be interested to see it.

Mark

[mike...@gmail.com]

Yes please. A simple scan should do. It doesn't need a "first-class digitalisation" as was done with Thinking Forth.

[C G Montgomery]

I own a copy of Scientific Forth, which I would be willing to make
available for scanning, but I am unsure about copyright restrictions.
(I don't own a scanner.)
(I could leave my copy to the Forth Scientific Library in my will,
so a future maintainer could deal with it appropriately.) ;-)

regards cgm

[Rod Pemberton]

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 04:26:23 -0500, <mike...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem.

"Finite State Machines in Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/fsm.html

"A Beginner's Guide to Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm

"Programs, Programs, Programs" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/programs.htm

"Developing Assembly Language Programs in Forth" by J.V. Noble
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/asmcise2.pdf

> Please, everyone in this group, organize an effort to locate a copy
> of his book, Scientific Forth, and do to it what was previously done
> to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put it online, lest it be lost
> to obscurity.

I'd suspect his family or book publisher is likely to own copyrights.

Some years ago, he posted a link to his webpages on FSMs in Forth
to comp.lang.c. I have no idea why... Anyway, I posted a C port
of one of his Forth FSMs, which is here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.c/WjqgM4p0LrU/XA-YJvYsqS8J


Rod Pemberton

[Ed]

Readers would also need to understand HS-Forth which, from the snippets of
code I've seen, is not exactly intuitive. Good luck finding info on HS-Forth.

[Matthias Koch]

> Yes please. A simple scan should do. It doesn't need a "first-class digitalisation" as was done with Thinking Forth.

Ok. I fetch the book in January and do the scan if nobody discovers a digital copy meanwhile.

Merry Christmas !
Matthias

[the_gavino_himself]

a noble cause

[Paul E Bennett]

I have received an email from Josef Gabriel who asked me to place this on
here.

> Hi Paul,
>
> I have tried to post to the "Please rescue Julian Noble's book Scientific
> Forth from being lost," but google has rejected each post.
>
> I bought a "Scientific Forth" copy to scan. I am currently working with
> Paper Upgrade Project, http://www.paperupgrade.org/, to scan the book.
This
> should be completed the third week of January. This will give the project
a
> good base from which to start.
>
> In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
> Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
> widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
> who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to
informally
> nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure
Julian's
> archive at Taygeta.
>
> Please pass this message on to clf. Please inform me if you chose not to
> pass on the message.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Josef Gabriel (jg)

[Albert van der Horst]

In article <bhsvdg...@mid.individual.net>,

Paul E Bennett <Paul_E....@topmail.co.uk> wrote:
>mike...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on
>> implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group,
>> organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do
>> to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put
>> it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.
>

<SNIP>

>>
>> In regards to rights, I have tried contacting the listed book publisher,
>> Mechum Banks Publishing, with no luck. I think I have located Julian's
>> widow, Harriet. I think we may get a better reception from her if someone
>> who has contacted her before now contacts her. I'd would like to
>informally
>> nominate C.G. Montgomery because cgm worked with Harriet to secure
>Julian's
>> archive at Taygeta.

The situation that it is impossible to contact a copyright holder is common.
I've been in a situation where it was even impossible to establish who
owned the rights to a program. (Fortunately GNU had an alternative.)
Legislation that protects those who are in good faith trying to preserve
cultural and intellectual heritage in situations where the owner of
the copyright is not exploiting the copyright is overdue.
With the Draconian laws we have now it is possible to sue for
scanning the book without even the intent to publish it before the
copyright is expired. (I don't expect Julian Noble's widow to do that,
of course.)

If we want to preserve heritage, a massive effort is needed, far beyond
single books. :-(
But by all means, keep up the good work. Let's "kill the enemy one by
one".

<SNIP>

Groetjes Albert
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[jg]

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:37:03 AM UTC-8, Paul E Bennett wrote:

I handed the book is currently be scanned by the Paper Upgrade Project. I'm hoping for the best. The left hand pages are a bit too close to the binding, so the binding might have to be sacrificed :(

The search for Julian's widow, Harriet, continues. I am hoping to hear something by the end of the month. I just realized his children maybe easier to find... a last resort.

Thinking Forth is hosted at SourceForge. I don't see the FSL as a repository on Github. That might be nice to have an FSL repository packaged with Scientific Forth.

Thoughts?

jg

[jg]

I think Julian's wife has been found. I am waiting on a confirmation.

I have received a test scan from the Paper Upgrade Project. The pdfs look great. Google Docs does a decent job with OCR'ing the pdfs, which will save time. This will be easier than transcribing "Thinking Forth." I will have the rest of the book scanned.

To wait or not to wait for the copyrights, that is the question.

[Paul E Bennett]

jg wrote:

> I think Julian's wife has been found. I am waiting on a confirmation.
>
> I have received a test scan from the Paper Upgrade Project. The pdfs look
> great. Google Docs does a decent job with OCR'ing the pdfs, which will
> save time. This will be easier than transcribing "Thinking Forth." I will
> have the rest of the book scanned.
>
> To wait or not to wait for the copyrights, that is the question.

Thanks for the update. You should probably wait for the copyright
confirmation a bit longer. I trust you have a record of efforts to contact
the holder so that, if they are not found in a reasonable time period and
you publish it, you have some defence to say you made reasonable efforts in
trying to track down the copyright holder.

[JUERGEN]

Is it possible to get the contact details for Julian's wife, and/or who was in contact with her then?? His Forth tutorial would be a great addition to the Forth Bookshelf if she would agree to have it published, if she agrees to the copyright transfer just for the eBook publication

[NN]

Hi Juergen,

I dont know if you are aware of the page : https://github.com/Josefg/Scientific_FORTH

There is a consent letter there.

NN

[polymorph self]

I agree!!

I think Charles Moore should apply to government for 10million grant top document his work for the presevation of engineering knowledge.

MAybe 50million.

Most universities get millions a year to do far far inferior job.

[polymorph self]

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 at 4:26:23 AM UTC-5, mike...@gmail.com wrote:
> The late Julian Noble was a very fine mind, and his article on implementing FSMs in Forth was a gem. Please, everyone in this group, organize an effort to locate a copy of his book, Scientific Forth, and do to it what was previously done to Thinking Forth; ie, digitize it and put it online, lest it be lost to obscurity.

https://github.com/Josefg/Scientific_FORTH

[JUERGEN]

Thanks for the quick feedback, I was not clear enough, I am after the ok for the Tutorial at http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm , not the Scientific_Forth yet.

[Paul Rubin]

JUERGEN <epld...@aol.com> writes:
> Is it possible to get the contact details for Julian's wife, and/or
> who was in contact with her then?? His Forth tutorial would be a great
> addition to the Forth Bookshelf if she would agree to have it
> published, if she agrees to the copyright transfer just for the eBook
> publication

Given that there's already a public html version, I'd oppose such a
transfer if it prevents the release of a regular pdf version like the
ones available for Starting Forth and Thinking Forth. A restricted
Amazon version is better than nothing, but worse than an unrestricted
pdf.

[Charles Montgomery]

There is an archive of the material from Julian Noble's web pages at the
University of Virginia provided by the Forth Scientific Library.
In particular, see https://www.taygeta.com/fsl/docs/NobleArchive.html

regards cgm

[JUERGEN]

actually I generated and made a PDF version of Starting Forth available with Leon's ok for copyright 5 years ago I think at http://www.exemark.com/FORTH/StartingFORTHfromForthWebsitev9_2013_12_24.pdf , and the link to Forth, Inc. next to it. People are different and some still like to read it on their screens as eBook - and again with Leon's ok - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Starting-Forth-Leo-Brodie-ebook/dp/B01MS7YDKD/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

[m...@iae.nl]

I don't remember having given permission for commercial
purposes that involve protection schemes. If the for-money
version is based on the web version, my part shall be open
without limitations whatsoever.

-marcel

[JUERGEN]

Sorry for my bad understanding of English, Marcel - but please explain what you mean. Did you check what I did/published or are you just assuming? I went to the copyright owner FORTH,Inc. and used their website documentation. You can read the approval in the eBook and in the PDF I generated. I do not think I need your approval of a book that you did not write and do not own the copyright of. FORTH,INC. who paid Leo to write the book and own the copyright approved what I did.

[JUERGEN]

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 11:07:09 AM UTC, m...@iae.nl wrote:

If there is any possible issue it is between you and Leon.