idea for someone who leant COBOL in the past
Peter Lang
Robert wrote:
>
> hi ,
> I learnt COBOL about 10 years ago but never programmed in it as a
> programmer
I'm in the same situation.
> Any idea if this knowladge can help me find a job
The computing people who have interviewed me regard my accountancy job
with the gravest suspicion; The accountants regard my CS/Engineering
qualifications as proof that I am a degenerate.
I've given up on the accountants I work for and have decided to take up
busking on street corners for a living intead.
Peter
--
Peter Lang pdl...@ozemail.com.au
Trust me. I'm from the government. I'm here to help you.
Taxes are the price of civilisation. Peter...@ato.gov.au
--
JCJ0347
>I've given up on the accountants I work for and have decided to take up
>busking on street corners for a living intead.
>
>Peter
Until you at least get your self-respect back.
Material Fellow
Job hunting today is an explicit elimination process, not an opportunity
process. HR types and managers are looking for fast ways to eliminate
you from consideration so that the surviving pile of candidates are
"nice" and understood.
People with many job skills are frozen out.
Generally managers and HR types don't have many job skills, so having
them makes you different and potentially dangerous. One of the sad
facts of life.
So have many resumes, but look at each resume as a set of qualifications
only, not a list that someone can use as disqualifications.
Peter Lang wrote:
> The computing people who have interviewed me regard my accountancy job
> with the gravest suspicion; The accountants regard my CS/Engineering
> qualifications as proof that I am a degenerate.
>
> I've given up on the accountants I work for and have decided to take up
> busking on street corners for a living intead.
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Lang pdl...@ozemail.com.au
> Trust me. I'm from the government. I'm here to help you.
> Taxes are the price of civilisation. Peter...@ato.gov.au
> --
--
I use stealth Java in my sig file.
It's there, but no one can detect it.
David
>Job hunting today is an explicit elimination process, not an opportunity
>process. HR types and managers are looking for fast ways to eliminate
>you from consideration so that the surviving pile of candidates are
>"nice" and understood.
>
>People with many job skills are frozen out.
>
>Generally managers and HR types don't have many job skills, so having
>them makes you different and potentially dangerous. One of the sad
>facts of life.
>
>So have many resumes, but look at each resume as a set of qualifications
>only, not a list that someone can use as disqualifications.
>
This post seems angry... In some ways, I can understand it. I
routinely see resumes boasting 20+ languages and utilities... resumes
indicating the individual can 'do everything with excellence'. It
doesn't matter if it might be true. Employers need to hire individuals
for specific functions. If it's to build a website, expertise in COBOL
may not be relevant. Conversely, if the corporate mission is to
upgrade old legacy systems, your expertise at C++, mastery of Office
97, and guru qualifications in Assembler only send signals to the
potential employer that you 'want to do something else' and that 'you
want lots of strokes...'.
These HR signals can be useful. If a company wants only 'compatible'
people, it's a nowhere company anyway. Look for some signal during
interview process that employees who can focus on corporate needs --
and also challenge the system -- are welcome. such positions do
exist.... I know.
so, my opinion - job hunting is a two-way street. think of it as a
fishing expedition. put out what you think will reel in a fish --
don't toss everything you have into the lake and expect all the fish
to jump in the boat. that's what you do with a resume that is so full
of tech skills that you transfer responsibility on assessing you to
the recruiter. do this yourself -- it makes it easier for the
recruiter to see your strengths. (Last week I reviewed a resume of
mainframe, unix, pc skills all bundled together -- the candidate was
in effect saying... I can do anything, you sort it out. Problem is:
there are enough other candidates who will do it for the recruiter
that few feel challenged to prove your worth...)
Personally, I have many skills and feel anyone who hires me is
blessed. But... I need to remember that the only skills they will
value are the ones they perceive they need.... 'perceive' and 'need'
are key words.
end of speech (as david gingerly steps off teetering soapbox...)
david
David d.s....@ix.netcom.com
____________________________________
JCJ0347
Thanks for the reply David.
I would kind of like to know how many other COBOL
programmers have another (different) valuable skill that might
make it necessary to keep multiple versions of their resume
polished up and ready to go.
I would suspect that most COBOL heads who have degrees from
the 1970's and 1980's also have at least 6 semesters of accounting.
Even today, COBOL programmers need to understanding dr/cr.
That can prove useful as you move laterally or upward in a corp.
I've known several folks who migrated away from the coding
into business management in one department or another.
Although I spend about 20 hours a week cranking COBOL, my
Official Job Title is Director of Operations. Big sounding title for
someone who does everything except drive the fork lift.
So like David pointed out, keep resumes ready for the job you seek.
I have a resume that leans heavily on 17 years of COBOL programming.
But I have another that emphasizes my business mangagment skills.
David teaches us all a good lesson.
Regards,
James Jones.
Material Fellow
Gary Lee wrote:
>
> It is a good lesson to learn, and one I had forgotten. Having recently
> been sending out the I-Can-Do-It-All resume, it probably explains why I'm
> getting fewer responses than I did 15 years ago when
> I-Could-Do-Only-A-Little. As a famous marketing guru said, "Price is
> capturing the customer's perception of value." The customer will never pay
> for what is not in their criteria.
Yes, you begin to understand what I initially wrote before I was so
rudely blown off for being angry or some other such perception.
>
> Unfortunately it also explains why, as another instructor said long ago,
> that the personnel department is basically incapable of passing on the best
> qualified applicant for a given job.
It isn't the job of anybody to select the best qualified candidate. In
daily life we rarely select the best of anything because it is too
difficult and time consuming.
We select "good enough" a great deal. When you buy a McDonalds
hamburger it is assuredly "not the best" but is "Good Enough" as well as
cheap.
It is the same in hiring. If you can't be cheap, then what can you do
to offset that and still fit into the narrow window where "Good Enough"
counts and "Best in class" doesn't meet the scope of the job.
It is commonly said that many people refuse to hire someone smarter or
more capable than themselves. No threat. It takes a big man or a
driven man to hire people smarter than themselves. Henry Ford was proud
to hire men smarter than himself so that he could pick their brains. So
long as he was in charge, there was no threat from them being smart.
But how many of us get to work for a Henry Ford (who was a SOB for other
reasons)?
Really smart people are smart to hide much of their smartness, until
after they get hired. Your smartness in the employment era doesn't
advance you like it did in high school or college era.
You don't know how true "OVERQUALIFIED" is a true statement of why you
didn't get the job. You scare the s**t out of somebody. Got to be a
good B student, not the classical A student type to get in.
People with varied backgrounds will
> often find a far more elegant solution, which will be simpler, cheaper, and
> more reliable.
>
None of this excellence stuff really counts. Good Enough counts.
What helps beyond "Good Enough" is being liked or some clear benefit
that the boss sees in hiring you. He has someone loyal, someone like
him or her, something that he or she isn't getting enough of in the rest
of the staff.
So, if you get the interview, focus on what the prospect needs and isn't
getting..... it is just sales skills - which are taught poorly.
>
> As the purpose of a resume is only to get an interview (NOT to get a job),
> it should be designed to get through that narrow filter.
>
> Gary Lee gl...@nspm.millcomm.com (Remove the spam filter, etc.)
> -----------------
> "Twenty years of schoolin' and they put you on the day shift."
> Bob Dylan
Gary Lee
It is a good lesson to learn, and one I had forgotten. Having recently
been sending out the I-Can-Do-It-All resume, it probably explains why I'm
getting fewer responses than I did 15 years ago when
I-Could-Do-Only-A-Little. As a famous marketing guru said, "Price is
capturing the customer's perception of value." The customer will never pay
for what is not in their criteria.
Unfortunately it also explains why, as another instructor said long ago,
that the personnel department is basically incapable of passing on the best
qualified applicant for a given job. IMNSHO it is of value to a company to
hire someone with cross-platform, or cross-language, or cross-industry
experience for the simple reason that people who have only done one thing
only know one way to do things (e.g., people with hammers tend to find
nails...even when they are screws). People with varied backgrounds will
often find a far more elegant solution, which will be simpler, cheaper, and
more reliable.
The personnel office is specifically charged with weeding out all of the
people on whom the hiring manager does not want to waste time. Not only do
they look for an exact match (with nothing extra) to the requirements, but
they will also look for the least experienced (and hence, least expensive)
applicant who meets the minimum requirements. This, of course, is assuming
that they even know what the listed requirements mean (which, in our
industry, would require experience they would not get from working in
personnel). You can't blame them, since to do otherwise will usually get
them fired.
docd...@clark.net
In article <199804292334...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
JCJ0347 <jcj...@aol.com> wrote:
[snippolinio]
>
>Although I spend about 20 hours a week cranking COBOL, my
>Official Job Title is Director of Operations. Big sounding title for
>someone who does everything except drive the fork lift.
They don't let you drive the forklift? But that's the *fun* part of
working in the warehouse!
DD
Material Fellow
Probably "overqualified" for one thing.
Besides, they may have to pay him more to do that job. The trade
between the old concept of "psychic income" versus "real income".
"psychic income" was what fed your ego, not your kids.
docd...@clark.net
In article <354894...@pacbell.net>,
Material Fellow <jbu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>docd...@clark.net wrote:
>>
>> In article <199804292334...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>> JCJ0347 <jcj...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snippolinio]
>>
>> >
>> >Although I spend about 20 hours a week cranking COBOL, my
>> >Official Job Title is Director of Operations. Big sounding title for
>> >someone who does everything except drive the fork lift.
>>
>> They don't let you drive the forklift? But that's the *fun* part of
>> working in the warehouse!
>>
>> DD
>
>Probably "overqualified" for one thing.
Hmmmm, now *that* one takes me back... a few years ago it was the In Thing
to tell *anyone* you didn't want working for/with you 'Sorry, you're
overqualified'... being the consultant/contracting type that always struck
me as kind of humorous. My reply was 'Alright, I am overqualified... what
would you like me to forget?'
>
>Besides, they may have to pay him more to do that job. The trade
>between the old concept of "psychic income" versus "real income".
Or maybe a union? Who knows.
>
>"psychic income" was what fed your ego, not your kids.
As I've said many times: 'Honor is a wonderful coin... but my landlord
doesn't accept it.'
DD
Material Fellow
docd...@clark.net wrote:
>
> In article <354894...@pacbell.net>,
> Material Fellow <jbu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >Probably "overqualified" for one thing.
>
> Hmmmm, now *that* one takes me back... a few years ago it was the In Thing
> to tell *anyone* you didn't want working for/with you 'Sorry, you're
> overqualified'... being the consultant/contracting type that always struck
> me as kind of humorous. My reply was 'Alright, I am overqualified... what
> would you like me to forget?'
>
>
The theme is that job hunting is ELIMINATION, not OPPORTUNITY.
"Overqualified" was an attempt at a dignified way of saying no, or
eliminating you.
It was clearly negative, not a positive.
It was insurmountable, because all attmpts to overcome it would drive
home the real message -- we want cheap McDonalds people, but if you
aren't aware that you are a first class hamburger at McDonald's prices,
we won't tell you and ruin your low earnings record.
No Real Burgers Need Apply !
docd...@clark.net
In article <3548E1...@pacbell.net>,
Material Fellow <jbu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>docd...@clark.net wrote:
>>
>> In article <354894...@pacbell.net>,
>> Material Fellow <jbu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Probably "overqualified" for one thing.
>>
>> Hmmmm, now *that* one takes me back... a few years ago it was the In Thing
>> to tell *anyone* you didn't want working for/with you 'Sorry, you're
>> overqualified'... being the consultant/contracting type that always struck
>> me as kind of humorous. My reply was 'Alright, I am overqualified... what
>> would you like me to forget?'
>>
>>
>
>The theme is that job hunting is ELIMINATION, not OPPORTUNITY.
>"Overqualified" was an attempt at a dignified way of saying no, or
>eliminating you.
Yup, that much was pretty clear to me.
>
>It was clearly negative, not a positive.
Obviously so; the absurdity of an 'overqualified' consultant was
immediate.
>
>It was insurmountable, because all attmpts to overcome it would drive
>home the real message -- we want cheap McDonalds people, but if you
>aren't aware that you are a first class hamburger at McDonald's prices,
>we won't tell you and ruin your low earnings record.
>
>No Real Burgers Need Apply !
Well I don't know about *that*... but I do know that is was
'insurmountable', hence my asking an absurd question. Their reasons for
now wanting me could be legion... my eyes are a certain color, they want
more of a head-down-coder/team-player/blood-relative-of-the-CEO, my choice
in neckties was inappropriate, my sexual orientation was off... there are
all manner of reasons and most of them covered with 'sorry, we found
someone whom we thought was better qualified for the position'... it'd
accomplish the same end (keeping me out of the door) without the
absurdity.
DD
Doug
I sure am glad yer talkin' about jobs, because frankly i don't kncw
anything about cobol! Anyway, I will be graduating in May of '99. I
have one year to learn cobol or skip it altogether. I would like to
have twenty languages on my resume, but i will probably only get away
with four or five by grad day (if you count html, which you guys
probably don't).
We infants are being told in school that business backgrounds, and
communication skills are at least as important as languages, as is
demonstrated leadership skills. A crock? Who knows. But with the
growth of this field, any coherency on how to write a balanmed resume is
frankly non-existent. Pleasure typing to ycu.
Douglas
Dave Parker
Just don't try to give the impression that you know everything and can do
anything. They won't buy it. Learn a couple or three well, learn to
communicate and cooperate, be flexible and you'll be fine. Learn your
limitations, too, but don't waste any time tearing yourself down, there's
plenty of folks around willing to do that for you.
--
Dave Parker/DLP, Inc dlpa...@dlpinc00.com
JCJ0347
>We infants are being told in school that business backgrounds, and
>>communication skills are at least as important as languages, as is
>>demonstrated leadership skills. A crock? Who knows.
Absolutely NOT a crock. Programming skills will get you
a job, business and communication skills get you promoted.
JJ
Material Fellow
tfaber wrote:
>
> Hello, I'm looking for any advice regarding job hunting, and getting a first job as a programmer.
> I have over 10 years experience in
> Banking, specialized in commercial loan, mortgage and Mortgage investor
> accounting, as well as other banking accounting functions. I have strong analytical skills, and now I am a beyond entry level programmer from my
> education at The Chubb Institute. If any other programmers out there would.....
You sound like you are starting off "overqualified"..... and that gets
you nowhere.
In general, any other experience you have is going to often be taken as
a negative..... why did he quit mortgage banking.... must have not been
very good at it or did he have "people problems" ......
Emphasize that you are new .... meaning cheap.
Don't let it on that you are over 30..... often the kiss of death. Just
go and find me a bunch of gray beards in programming.
tfaber
Hello, I'm looking for any advice regarding job hunting, and getting a
first job as a programmer. I am a student at the Chubb Institute in
Manhatten. Have learned, OS/VS Cobol, Cobol II, CICS, and will begin C
language and DB2 in a short while.
Chubb has their own placement, but I would like some advice in addition,
so I can start my job search now. I have over 10 years experience in
Banking, specialized in commercial loan, mortgage and Mortgage investor
accounting, as well as other banking accounting functions. I have strong
analytical skills, and now I am a beyond entry level programmer from my
education at The Chubb Institute. If any other programmers out there would
like to mentor me abit in getting the first decent job (don't want to have
a bad start in a dead end going nowhere position, please let me know.
Very truly yours,
T. Faber
E-mail address is:
nb78...@nassaulibrary.org
Skinner
Just one piece of advice, stay away from government jobs.
-Chris
tfaber (tkf...@aol.com) wrote:
: Hello, I'm looking for any advice regarding job hunting, and getting a
:
Hank
Material Fellow <jbu...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<35528C...@pacbell.net>...
>
> Don't let it on that you are over 30..... often the kiss of death. Just
> go and find me a bunch of gray beards in programming.
I'm 40 and it never hurt me. All they want is lots of experience doing
different things, COBOL and a high degree of programming desire. Management
experience can sometimes be the kiss of death on your resume.
RandallBart
Unfortunately, most computer science students don't intend to work on
business programming. If you accept that you likely *are* going to work
on business programming, then you should have studied enough accounting
to understand terms like debit, credit, asset, liability, accounts
payable, accounts receivable, etc.
--
I |\ Randall Bart
L |/ mailto:Bart...@usa.spam.net Bart...@worldnet.att.spam.net
o |\ 1-310-542-6013 Please reply without spam
v | \ Todd McCormick released after 12 day illegal incarceration
e |\ for using Marinol w/ prescription: http://www.freecannabis.org
Y |/ http://www.marijuanamagazine.com/toc/articles/toddfree.htm
o |\ Panic in the Year Zero Zero: http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00
u |/ Is it easy yet?:http://members.aol.com/PanicYr00/Sequence.html
Dave Parker
RandallBart (Bart...@worldnet.att.spam.net) wrote:
: JCJ0347 wrote:
: >
: > >We infants are being told in school that business backgrounds, and
: > >>communication skills are at least as important as languages, as is
: > >>demonstrated leadership skills. A crock? Who knows.
: >
: > Absolutely NOT a crock. Programming skills will get you
: > a job, business and communication skills get you promoted.
: >
: > JJ
: Unfortunately, most computer science students don't intend to work on
: business programming. If you accept that you likely *are* going to work
: on business programming, then you should have studied enough accounting
: to understand terms like debit, credit, asset, liability, accounts
: payable, accounts receivable, etc.
Let's not lose sight of the fact, though, that there's plenty of
non-business programming work out there, and I'd be willing to bet almost
none of it COBOL. I tend to think that it's a combination of communication
skills and luck that get you the job (unless there's a rigorous, reliable,
and valid standardized test of some sort to test programming skills
involved), and a combination of technical and people skills that let you
keep it, and sometimes get promoted, although I tend to agree that
communications skills (or marketing skills, or political skills) are often
more important in getting you promoted.
But learning more than one language and being familiar with more than one
technology, as well as having communication/people skills, are important
regardless of the language or application.
Donald Tees
>Agreed on the business part. The need for communication skills is
>questionable however. After all, we've all been telling management about
>Y2K for 20 years and watched it go around their ears!!
And this means we communicate well? <G>
As to the rest of the post, One of the biggest mistakes I made at
university is never taking an accounting course. Now, after a B.Sc.
in computer science and twenty-five years of practising it, I figure
I could teach one. I actually have ended up writing a couple books on
book-keeping. Had to, as user documentation.
Mickey
RandallBart wrote:
>
> JCJ0347 wrote:
> >
> > >We infants are being told in school that business backgrounds, and
> > >>communication skills are at least as important as languages, as is
> > >>demonstrated leadership skills. A crock? Who knows.
> >
> > Absolutely NOT a crock. Programming skills will get you
> > a job, business and communication skills get you promoted.
> >
> > JJ
>
> Unfortunately, most computer science students don't intend to work on
> business programming. If you accept that you likely *are* going to work
> on business programming, then you should have studied enough accounting
> to understand terms like debit, credit, asset, liability, accounts
> payable, accounts receivable, etc.
Agreed on the business part. The need for communication skills is
questionable however. After all, we've all been telling management about
Y2K for 20 years and watched it go around their ears!!
mickey
Gary Lee
Hank <ha...@eatspam.com> wrote in article
<01bd7a7b$a6ac07a0$e98bad80@hingram>...
the younger guys with good taste in clothes can use you for about 80 hours
a week to solve all the problems, and they get to cruise on up the
management ladder. What a deal!
--
Hank
Gary Lee <gl...@nspm.millcomm.com (Remove the spam filter, etc.)> wrote in
article <01bd7d55$e524d390$5a85aac7@sysserve01>...
> Yeah, they definitely want the older guy with lots of experience. That
way
> the younger guys with good taste in clothes can use you for about 80
hours
> a week to solve all the problems, and they get to cruise on up the
> management ladder. What a deal!
I quit working 80 hours days after I hit 30. I can solve everything in 40.
The overtime was simply to impress someone and I quit impressing anyone 10
years ago.
--
Hank Ingram
Programmer,Tea-drinker, former corporate stooge, member of the dreaded
Religious Right @ http://www.nr.infi.net/~hingram
Needlessly consuming valuable resources in Blacksburg, Va