Price of Microfocus Visual Cobol (Windows)

[iNFO_rene]

Just registered for a MF Visual Cobol trial... and got an email following sites for downloading the trial. So far (I think), the process of acquiring a boxed Visual Cobol is easy. Except that MF/Microfocus do not priced the product per se.

From the (Cobol) forums, you should email their 'representative' first before they will quote you a price. Why not price one bundle of it?? Is that a very difficult thing to do?

[Pete Dashwood]

You may not be able to buy a single licence for either of the Visual COBOL
products. (Micro Focus or Fujitsu). Typically, for anything other than the
nobbled DEMO or "student" editions it is a four-seat minimum.

For Micro Focus, the run time fees are killing it and the price they quote
for the compiler does not include them.

Many people are moving to Fujitsu to avoid the run time fees.

(You can expect to pay over $10,000 for the Fujitsu NetCOBOL for .Net
compiler and maintenance is mandatory. Nevertheless, for many companies, it
is still a better deal that paying run time fees on what they distribute.)

The Visual products are OO COBOL compilers that shine when running
components in .Net. Using them for traditional batch processing is an
expensive and unnecessary indulgence. You could use the native code
compilers from either of these vendors for that and you will get a better
performance than with the Visual (CIL) compilers. (The CIL has to be JIT
compiled at run time into CLR; the native code doesn't... However, the JIT
process is so efficient that you shouldn't see serious differences in the
processes...)

In my opinion, although both compilers are excellent, Fujitsu has
historically supported components much better. (Fujitsu native compilers use
their own, Fujitsu supplied, COM classes that remove most of the
"complexity"; Micro Focus native compilers like Net Express are much more
cumbersome and require a lower level of code writing involving "triggers"
which Fujitsu doesn't.

Also, there is no way to batch compile or "clone" COM components with Micro
Focus because each component has to have it's own project and each method
and property has to be added through the project so it can be registered for
Typelib generation. If you have hundreds of components there is no way to
compile them all and every method and property has to be entered manually...
Fujitsu analyses the COBOL source and generates ODL from it which is used to
build the Typelib. You can clone new components from old ones easily and
batch compile the lot.

For the "Visual" compilers (CIL generating) from both companies, component
support for the .Net platform may be better.

For writing COM components for .NET, I use a C# .DLL template, which I
modified myself for COM, and now use as a COM template. As you would expect,
(Fujitsu native) COBOL has no trouble calling the C# code based on this
template. I should think it would be fairly easy to do the same for COBOL
but I'm not sure what templates are offered by each of the Visual products
or how much manual amendment would be needed.

I believe these Visual compilers are simply pricing themselves off the
market. And it is a shrinking market anyway.

The lion's share of it is with mainframe sites who are seeking to move off
the mainframe. As awareness grows on these sites that, in order for things
to work well in the .Net environment, separation and layers are necessary,
and that these layers are best comprised of Objects, there will be more
pressure for things like Data Access and Presentation Layers in the code,
and OO features of these compilers will become more used.

One day someone says: "We could write our objects for FREE if we moved away
from COBOL..." and then events take their inevitable course.

Workstation COBOL developers, for the most part, realised a long time ago
that they can get all the benefits of the .NET platform WITHOUT run time
fees and WITHOUT paying for an overpriced compiler and being forced to sign
up for mandatory maintenance, just by moving to Java or C#.

The cost is much less, the tools are much better, and the productivity (once
you get round the learning curve) is much higher.

Pete.
--
"I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything."

[Pete Dashwood]

[iNFO_rene]

On Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:21:08 PM UTC+8, Pete Dashwood wrote:
> You may not be able to buy a single licence for either of the Visual COBOL
> products. (Micro Focus or Fujitsu). Typically, for anything other than the
> nobbled DEMO or "student" editions it is a four-seat minimum.
>
> For Micro Focus, the run time fees are killing it and the price they quote
> for the compiler does not include them.
>
> Many people are moving to Fujitsu to avoid the run time fees.
>
> (You can expect to pay over $10,000 for the Fujitsu NetCOBOL for .Net
> compiler and maintenance is mandatory. Nevertheless, for many companies, it
> is still a better deal that paying run time fees on what they distribute.)

For $10,000 (or Php420,000.00) in the Philippines... this amount could buy a house and lot which is usually being saved for about 30yrs working in a regular programming job.

That just it, a Cobol developer like me in this place is turned down for work. Might as well retire.

[Pete Dashwood]

Rene, you are a skilled Programmer. You shouldn't have to retire (especially
if you don't want to...)

Here are a couple of suggestions:

1. Can you peddle your COBOL skill on the Internet? If you offer a fixed
price (rather than an hourly rate) you may get some companies interested.
Guarantee the work (money back), be prepared to work from an outline of
their requirement (go through it carefully and make sure you clarify any
dodgy areas) and give them a time and a price. Make your initial prices very
competitive (but don't work for nothing :-)) Once you can establish some
credibility, look to expand your base. What's the worst that can happen? You
spend some time building a Web Site (and from what I've seen you are very
good at this) and you don't get a response. OK, you are no worse off and it
has only cost you time.

Don't get into details of what their COBOL environment or platform is and
whether you have experience with it. Focus on the functionality they need
and offering them a solution for a fixed price in a known timeframe. (If
they are running some version of COBOL on a platform you haven't worked
with, don't be intimidated. It is COBOL. There is a forum right here where
you can request advice for anything esoteric or unusal; focus on getting
them a solution.)

If you need some help or advice with any aspects of this, I'll be glad to
help you. (And I'm sure there are still others here who will too...)

2. Seriously consider leveraging your existing skills and be prepared to
learn the New Technology. I know that's what I always say, and have been
saying for around 25 years now, but I say it because it's true. There ISN'T
a living in standard COBOL anymore, except in a very limited marketplace,
for a very small percentage of programmers. Languages like VB.Net, C# and
Java, are NOT hard to pick up (you should see some of the idiots who have
done it...self included... :-)), and these are marketable skills.

Now, I'm not sure what the situation is in the Phillipines, but there is
another thing that is WELL worth remembering:

DON"T just do what you CAN do. (Whether it is COBOL or something else).
Instead, FIND OUT what is NEEDED and WANTED, then acquire the skills to
provide that.

Survey local in-house IT departments and ask them if they are interested in
reducing workload by LOCAL outsourcing, with a guaranteed price and
delivery. Don't get dejected if there isn't a raging response right away; it
takes a little time. Offer a problem solution; NOT a contract COBOL
programming service. You can start with COBOL but be prepared to look at
other things too. Maybe they need some web development support, maybe they
have some tedious JCL processes that they would like to have improved. Be
prepared to go and see people, make contacts, and LISTEN. Don't rule out
anything; if you can't do it yourself, maybe you know someone who
can...Become a "solutions guy". Be prepared to sub-contract if you pick up
something like a complete sub-system. Amateurs rush in and try to do
everything on day one, professionals pace themselves and plan their
workloads. You haven't achieved anything if you work yourself into a nervous
breakdown by long hours and overly ambitious deadlines. PLan everything
before you even think about pricing. Recognize where the risks are by
identifying what you have control over and what you don't.

(The very first contract job I ever undertook (in the late 1960s) was
writing some COBOL for an NCR 315 (a machine I had never even seen). The
applications weren't difficult and I got the programs written in pretty fast
time but I needed Job Control to run them and so on. I had no idea, so I
went and had a beer with one of the programmers in their data centre and
asked if he would write me what I needed. He was happy to and I paid him
cash (it was less than 5% of the contract and worth every penny.) I COULD
have sat down with the manual and taught myself what I needed but it was
much better to have it provided by someone who knew what they were doing...
and it wasn't going to be a key skill I would need for the future.)

The question of whether you retire or not is really down to you. If you feel
a bit stalled by COBOL, go round it.

You can be very certain that nobody is going to come to you with money
unless you raise your profile and show them you can add value to what they
are doing..

Best of luck and every good wish,

[iNFO_rene]

On Monday, December 3, 2012 7:53:06 AM UTC+8, Pete Dashwood wrote:
> DON"T just do what you CAN do. (Whether it is COBOL or something else).
> Instead, FIND OUT what is NEEDED and WANTED, then acquire the skills to
> provide that.
>

Thanks for the advise Pete... and a positive response at that from you :)

And yes I don't want to retire and your advise (quoted above) won't let me even pass the opportunity that it is still out there. I am trying to innovate whats Cobol technology is giving me right now. Cobol cloud computing is the way to go for me.

I will try to design an "Online Automotive Servicing App" (or Online Warehousing and Distribution) this month and will post the URL/site here. I will offer it for free for a year then let me see what will happen.

[Pete Dashwood]

Excellent!

You are using the skills and experience you have, and packaging them into a
solution.

If you need hosting I can recommend someone who will let you pay
month-by-month (no contract commitment), is extremely knowledgeable and
helpful, is COBOL friendly (some ISPs are not), and who provides 99.999%
up-time, for around $US10 per month. (I use this company myself, have done
for several years now, and have found them outstanding.)

Cloud could also be a good solution and there is at least one company
offering COBOL in the Cloud. (It generates Java, but that makes no
difference to the people who will access and run your application...)

Look forward to seeing the site and wish you every success with it.

[cora1...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 5:02:56 AM UTC-5, iNFO_rene wrote:
> Just registered for a MF Visual Cobol trial... and got an email following sites for downloading the trial. So far (I think), the process of acquiring a boxed Visual Cobol is easy. Except that MF/Microfocus do not priced the product per se.
>
> From the (Cobol) forums, you should email their 'representative' first before they will quote you a price. Why not price one bundle of it?? Is that a very difficult thing to do?

ALTERNATIVES TO MICRO FOCUS COBOL:

RAINCODE COBOL(FRENCH CO) FREE, USES VISUAL STUDIO IDE
GOOD COMPILER

GNU COBOL(FAIR)
AS USUAL LIKE C++, HAS NO PRINTING CAPABILITIES
YOU NEED TO FIND A REPORT WRITER TO PRINT ON PAPER!!!
USES ECLIPSE IDE.

I HAVE USED BOTH FUJITSU AND MICROFOCUS COBOL COMPILERS AND FIND THEM
BUGGY AND HARD TO USE. I DID NOT LIKE THEM.

RAINCODE COBOL IS A GOOD CHOICE AND ITS FREE!!

IBM COBOL COMPILERS RUN VERY NICELY ON THE HERCULES MVS 370 SIMULATON.
(WORKS ON ANY WINDOWS LINUX OR MICROSOFT)

VERYYYYYYYYYY TIME CONSUMING TO LEARN IBM MAINFRAME JCL ETC!!!
IT USUALLY TOOK A SEMESTER TO TEACH COBOL
ANOTHER SEMESTER TO TEACH IBM OS AND JCL
AHHHHHHHHH THE GOOD OLD DAYS!!!
I REALLY LIKED TEACHING THAT STUFF!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

REF CONTRACT WORK: YOU'LL GET KILL IF YOU DO IT ON A FIXED PRICE
SPECS ALWAYS CHANGE EVERY 2 DAYS!!!!

IF YOU STUPID ENOUGH TO OFFER A FIXED PRICE, THE CUSTOMER WILL
USE IT TO AVOID PAYING YOU FOR WORK COMPLETED!!!

ALL CONSTRUCTION "FIXED PRICE CONTRACTS" ARE REALLY TIME PLUS
MATERIALS CONTRACTS, SUBJECT TO "CHANGE ORDERS"

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE WRITING CONSTRUCTION OR SOFTWARE CONSTRUCTION
CONTRACTS THEN:

JUST STICK TO TIME PLUS MATERIALS(HOURLY RATE) CONTRACTS

[X-Nc]

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 12:29:07 PM UTC-4, cora1...@gmail.com wrote:

> ALTERNATIVES TO MICRO FOCUS COBOL:
>
> RAINCODE COBOL(FRENCH CO) FREE, USES VISUAL STUDIO IDE
> GOOD COMPILER

I had more difficulty getting this setup and working than I believe I should have had. Likely due to my confusion. I'll have to give it a shot again.

> GNU COBOL(FAIR)
> AS USUAL LIKE C++, HAS NO PRINTING CAPABILITIES
> YOU NEED TO FIND A REPORT WRITER TO PRINT ON PAPER!!!
> USES ECLIPSE IDE.

There's an IDE made specifically for GnuCOBOL written in python called OpenCobolIDE that's available as a pip and as a WinXX download from https://www.arnoldtrembley.com/GnuCOBOL.htm (along with a ton of other GnuCOBOL stuff).

Haven't tried this yet but just wanted to add this info.

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <952bf418-a319-40b8...@googlegroups.com>,

<cora1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 5:02:56 AM UTC-5, iNFO_rene wrote:
>> Just registered for a MF Visual Cobol trial... and got an email
>following sites for downloading the trial. So far (I think), the process
>of acquiring a boxed Visual Cobol is easy. Except that MF/Microfocus do
>not priced the product per se.
>>
>> From the (Cobol) forums, you should email their 'representative' first
>before they will quote you a price. Why not price one bundle of it?? Is
>that a very difficult thing to do?
>
>ALTERNATIVES TO MICRO FOCUS COBOL:

Looks like some places need to upgrade to COBOLII.

DD

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <bb75b223-4ac5-4b70...@googlegroups.com>,

X-Nc <joe.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 12:29:07 PM UTC-4, cora1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> ALTERNATIVES TO MICRO FOCUS COBOL:
>>
>> RAINCODE COBOL(FRENCH CO) FREE, USES VISUAL STUDIO IDE
>> GOOD COMPILER
>
>I had more difficulty getting this setup and working than I believe I
>should have had. Likely due to my confusion. I'll have to give it a
>shot again.

I've been fooled by the best, granted... but, Mr Klemmer, you seem to be a
decent, patient and generous man.

DD

[ken.un...@gmail.com]

CobolIDE 4.7.6 has not been updated since 2016.

The latest GNUCobol(formally OpenCobol)currently is
being supported and updated. Go to link below and
check it out. Good support and discussions. It is
available for Windows and Linux and it's free.
If in question check out the Manuals/Guides tab.
They are very responsive to posted questions.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/open-cobol/

[ken.un...@gmail.com]

Forgot to mention it supports ISAM and Berkley DataBase
and Curses also multiple precision arithmetic.

It can also interface with Python and WEB code and 'C'.

It runs on Ubuntu 18.04 or better, Linux Mint 19.x and
Linux Mint LDME4, Debian 10.X, Linux Lite 4.6 & 4.8
and Zorin 15.2. I am no Cobol expert but have tested
GnuCobol on all the above systems.

If needed there is an older version 2.2 which runs on
challenged systems.

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <0e791042-297d-4bfb...@googlegroups.com>,

<ken.un...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Forgot to mention it supports ISAM and Berkley DataBase
>and Curses also multiple precision arithmetic.

Must... resist... cheap... shot...

... can't. COBOL has encouraged me to do a few Curses, also.

DD

[ken.un...@gmail.com]

Doc,

I simply wanted the folks to know there are alternatives
to $10,000 dollar licenses.. Like Open Source.....

>few Curses< Your forgiven

[Joe]

Last time I used it I was missing a decent SQL (in my case MariaDB/MySQL) precompiler. Otherwise GNUCobol is great on a Raspberry
Pi but the SQL difficulties caused me to switch to Python - with the extra benefit of easy MQ (mosquitto) as well. But that was a
few years back. Maybe things are different now.