OT: Told you so...

[pete dashwood]

I was amused and interested to see this:

https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-10-highest-paid-programming-languages-in-early-2022/

I mentioned Rust a while back and it is still on my list to gain
familiarity with during this coming year.

Whether you are into block chain currency or not there is a good living
to be made from Solidity and Rust...

With most posters here now settling for retirement and the forum
descending into moribundance, some of you might be looking for a hobby
to occupy your time.

Did you ever hear of Solidity, as a programming language? It was new to me.

Seeing the pay levels graphic brought back memories of the days when
COBOL was in the top 3... now it isn't even on the list...

Don't let all that programming skill you acquired over decades go to
waste... Keep yourself mentally active with programming for fun and
profit...

Pete.
--
I used to write *COBOL*; now I can do *anything*...

[Bill Gunshannon]

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:55:30 -0500 (EST)
From: ACM TechNews <technew...@acm.org>
Subject: Ancient Programming Language Is Way More Common Than We Thought

Joel Khalili, *TechRadar*, 4 Feb 2022,
via ACM TechNews, Wednesday, February 9, 2022

A report by enterprise software provider Micro Focus found that more
than 800 billion lines of COBOL code are in daily use worldwide, about
three times more than expected, despite a decline in the number of
developers familiar with the 60-year-old programming language. Moreover,
nearly half of developers surveyed predict an increase in the volume of
COBOL used in their organization in the coming year, while a similar
share said they expect COBOL applications to live on for at least
another decade. The report found that 64% of companies reliant on COBOL
prefer to modernize their apps rather than replace them, while 92% of
respondents said COBOL will retain strategic importance to their
business. Said Micro Focus' Ed Airey, "For IT leaders, supporting core
business systems, COBOL application modernization lies at the heart of
digital transformation."

---------------------------------

Thought some here might find this interesting as well.

bill

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <j6lntv...@mid.individual.net>,

Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:55:30 -0500 (EST)
>From: ACM TechNews <technew...@acm.org>
>Subject: Ancient Programming Language Is Way More Common Than We Thought
>
>Joel Khalili, *TechRadar*, 4 Feb 2022,
>via ACM TechNews, Wednesday, February 9, 2022
>
>A report by enterprise software provider Micro Focus found that more
>than 800 billion lines of COBOL code are in daily use worldwide, about
>three times more than expected, despite a decline in the number of
>developers familiar with the 60-year-old programming language.

Well... that Micro Focus found a lot of COBOL isn't surprising.

>Moreover,
>nearly half of developers surveyed predict an increase in the volume of
>COBOL used in their organization in the coming year, while a similar
>share said they expect COBOL applications to live on for at least
>another decade.

(move stuff you can spill to a safe distance)

'This application will be sunset in ten years, there's no need for a
four-digit date.'

That being said... every so often a new kid in a recruiting-office will
find a copy of my vitals and send me a position to consider.

I'll respond with a request for a rate... and invariably the number that
comes back is less than what I was billing in 1982.

Pointing this out insures that I don't hear from them again... until a new
kid comes into the recruiting-office...

DD

[Vincent Coen]

Hello docdwarf!

Friday February 11 2022 01:02, you wrote to All:

> That being said... every so often a new kid in a recruiting-office
> will find a copy of my vitals and send me a position to consider.

> I'll respond with a request for a rate... and invariably the number
> that comes back is less than what I was billing in 1982.

> Pointing this out insures that I don't hear from them again... until a
> new kid comes into the recruiting-office...

I find that just requesting technical info from then if not already shows
that they have zero knowledge of our industry even in a light manner but
you are right just asking for the rate closes them down.

Dumb and dumber, springs to mind :)


Vincent

[Robert Jones]

I am pleased to see that there are still a few correspondents. Happy New Year all

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <7dd6cd13-ba1c-4e41...@googlegroups.com>,

And likewise... Happy Tiger all around!

DD

[pete dashwood]

On 11/02/2022 12:18, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:45:16 +1300, pete dashwood <dash...@enternet.co.nz>
> declaimed the following:

>
>> I was amused and interested to see this:
>>
>> https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-10-highest-paid-programming-languages-in-early-2022/
>>
>

> One gets the impression that this ranking may reflect the scarcity of
> programmers in those languages.
>
> Many of the short blurbs made comparison to C++ with the addition of
> memory safety, etc... Wasn't that what C#/.NET was supposed to bring to the
> world?
>
>

I like C# and it has been my programming language of choice for over a
decade now. It does do those things and it IS on the list...

One of the lessons I learned from using COBOL is that it is not a good
thing to become emotionally attached to ANY programming language.

[pete dashwood]

LOL!

Given that their main business is in "COBOL modernization" now, I would
expect nothing less from the head of the company.

However, I agree it is also interesting...

[pete dashwood]

On 11/02/2022 14:02, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> In article <j6lntv...@mid.individual.net>,
> Bill Gunshannon <bill.gu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 11:55:30 -0500 (EST)
>> From: ACM TechNews <technew...@acm.org>
>> Subject: Ancient Programming Language Is Way More Common Than We Thought
>>
>> Joel Khalili, *TechRadar*, 4 Feb 2022,
>> via ACM TechNews, Wednesday, February 9, 2022
>>
>> A report by enterprise software provider Micro Focus found that more
>> than 800 billion lines of COBOL code are in daily use worldwide, about
>> three times more than expected, despite a decline in the number of
>> developers familiar with the 60-year-old programming language.
>
> Well... that Micro Focus found a lot of COBOL isn't surprising.

Exactly.

>
>> Moreover,
>> nearly half of developers surveyed predict an increase in the volume of
>> COBOL used in their organization in the coming year, while a similar
>> share said they expect COBOL applications to live on for at least
>> another decade.
>
> (move stuff you can spill to a safe distance)
>
> 'This application will be sunset in ten years, there's no need for a
> four-digit date.'

I believe there will still be COBOL applications written recently, or
even some years ago, that will still be running in 10 years time. It is
because they are handling core processes that don't change a lot and
because of Human resistance to change.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If Evolution had taken that stance then we'd probably still be swimming
around some primeval swamp...

Change isn't always about "fixing"; sometimes it is about "improving"...

However, if the environment that the COBOL is running in gets changed
(and this has been the case for most of the world outside the USA) then
it will be converted into COBOL for the new environment and Micro Focus
are making a very nice multi-billion dollar business out of this.

It doesn't take too long before people realize that just recompiling
your COBOL code to run on the Network is an awful solution (because of
paradigm clashes - I have written at length about this on the PRIMA web
site -
3 web pages -
https://primacomputing.co.nz/PRIMAMetroObjectsAndLayers.aspx), so they
start moving to OO COBOL, which is much better. But the new development
is being done in newer OO languages and they are quicker to develop and
have better tools. And so the final "migration" is undertaken and COBOL
is eventually dropped.

>
> That being said... every so often a new kid in a recruiting-office will
> find a copy of my vitals and send me a position to consider.
>
> I'll respond with a request for a rate... and invariably the number that
> comes back is less than what I was billing in 1982.

To be fair, Doc, 1982 was around the peak of COBOL popularity and usage.
COBOL was the only game in town for commercial computer programming...
PCs had just been invented and were still considered "toy computers" by
many, the power of Networking them was still unknown to most, Relational
DBs would not come along until the following year, and the mainframe and
the procedural paradigm ruled supreme.

The rates you are being offered supports the argument that it isn't just
"supply and demand" that drives contract rates; there is also the
perceived "popularity"of the language...

It's insane. On the one hand journalists and senior managers are
bewailing the lack of COBOL expertise available, but when it comes to
it, they don't value it and won't pay for it, because someone says "We
shouldn't be paying high rates for an obsolete, ancient language..."

Being able to get contractors from the sub-continent for $8 an hour
doesn't help... I'm all in favor of seeing the third-world make a living
but there is a lot more to successfully developing a programming project
than just writing code.

I think many Western companies have learned that lesson over the last
couple of decades...

>
> Pointing this out insures that I don't hear from them again... until a new
> kid comes into the recruiting-office...
>

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I would imagine that most of the work
you do currently is with people you have worked with before, where they
know you and you know them and their company. As such, they can justify
paying you a proper rate.

You definitely don't need an Agency after all the years you have put in.

> DD

[pete dashwood]

Thanks for the greeting, Robert.

This place is special to me because it is one of the last bastions of
free speech and unmoderated postings on the planet.

Over decades there have been great discussions here both on and off topic.

But it is inevitable that it will go.

Somebody is paying for it and, as traffic diminishes, they will be less
inclined to do so.

I don't come here anywhere near as often as I once did, but I still like
to check it out occasionally.

I'll be sad to see it go, but there is a fair chance it will see me go
before that happens :-)

[pete dashwood]

Sorry, link was incorrect...
https://primacomputing.co.nz/PRIMAMetro'ObjectsAndLayers.aspx

[pete dashwood]

3rd time lucky...

https://primacomputing.co.nz/PRIMAMetro/ObjectsAndLayers.aspx

[docd...@panix.com]

In article <j7fui5...@mid.individual.net>,

pete dashwood <dash...@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>On 11/02/2022 14:02, docd...@panix.com wrote:

[snip]

>> Pointing this out insures that I don't hear from them again... until a new
>> kid comes into the recruiting-office...
>>
>Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I would imagine that most of the work
>you do currently is with people you have worked with before, where they
>know you and you know them and their company. As such, they can justify
>paying you a proper rate.
>
>You definitely don't need an Agency after all the years you have put in.

Most of the people I worked with before have long since retired and in the
USA many companies have (at certain levels) a No Direct Contract policy to
prevent collusion between their 'indigenous fauna' and greedy
consultants/contractors/hired guns.

(this encourages collusion between said fauna and Agencies)

DD

[Joe]

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:51:38 +1300, pete dashwood <dash...@enternet.co.nz> wrote:

>
>This place is special to me because it is one of the last bastions of
>free speech and unmoderated postings on the planet.
>
>Over decades there have been great discussions here both on and off topic.
>
>But it is inevitable that it will go.
>
>Somebody is paying for it and, as traffic diminishes, they will be less
>inclined to do so.
>
>I don't come here anywhere near as often as I once did, but I still like
>to check it out occasionally.
>
>I'll be sad to see it go, but there is a fair chance it will see me go
>before that happens :-)
>
>Pete.

For those that may loose access to usenet https://www.eternal-september.org/ could be a solution. Free, text only usenet. I'm
using it as my provider winds down their newsservers.

[Bill Gunshannon]

And then there is new.individual.net. Not free, but less per year than
a couple of Starbucks Lattes.

bill

[pete dashwood]

Yes, I use news.individual.net and, as Bill says, it is very reasonable.
It runs out of German Academia...

[pete dashwood]

Yes, I have encountered this back in the day, in the UK, parading as
"preferred suppliers".

Agencies bend over backwards to get on the preferred supplier list and
"incentives" are rife.

I was working through a particular Agency for a while and there was a
job that I had been interviewed for and passed the interview, but the
Agency were told that, as they were not a "preferred supplier", They
would have to present me through a company that was.

(Big fleas have little fleas
Upon their backs to bite 'em
And little fleas have lesser fleas
And so, ad infinitum...
- Jonathan Swift 1733)

I phoned the guy who interviewed me, told him the situation and asked if
I could meet with him and his Boss to seek a solution.

We duly met and the situation was explained. I told them I was not
prepared to have more than one level of overhead and would have to
withdraw my application unless the situation was resolved. It was
getting too late to initiate another lengthy (and expensive) recruitment
process...

Suddenly, my Agency were notified that they were now "preferred
suppliers" for that company, and everyone was happy.

It was not long after this contract that I stopped using Agencies
altogether and, in effect, became my own Agent, relying on previous
contacts and track record. I was phoned in London by a German guy I had
worked with, who was now back in Germany and had referred me to his
Boss, as a person who could possibly solve a problem their IT people had
said could not be done. (We, (my German team and I) did it and they just
kept extending my contract...) I enjoyed living in Duesseldorf and found
the people were nothing like my preconceptions.

From then on, I worked at Senior Management level and started doing
"trouble shooting". All the work was by referral and direct contact.

On the rare occasions when HR would object to my being recruited
directly, they'd get a phone call from a Board Member or similar level
Management, saying I was needed for special projects and that was the
end of it.

This was all a long time ago and the IT contracting scene was
reminiscent of the Wild West, with cowboy Agencies and cowboy
contractors. I enjoyed it at the time but I like my life now, better.


I returned more or less permanently to New Zealand in 2002 and I only
did one contract as an IT Project Manager for an insurance company in
Auckland. They had an enlightened CEO who was probably the best manager
I ever worked for anywhere on Earth. I know you say that "a fish rots
from the head", Doc, but the converse is also true. This guy was amazing
and the morale in that Company was the best I have ever seen. It was a
joy to go to work each day.

I was kind of sorry when my critical project ended and there was nothing
else in that company that interested me. I was getting tired of living
in Auckland during the week and commuting home only at weekends, too. So
I started writing the PRIMA software tools and building the PRIMA
business from home.

The tools have been completed and we can now automate COBOL Migration to
RDB and to .NET with just mouse clicks. (We can salvage 100% of COBOL
legacy and modernize it at the same time (to OO COBOL), without clients
needing to write ANY code...) But the candidates for migration are
mostly gone, and I think that ship has largely sailed. Most people had
to find an alternative to COBOL and they did so. We get very few
inquiries regarding moving COBOL on now, and I'll probably close PRIMA
at the end of this year. I don't have the energy to start in a new
direction but I'll see how it goes and how I feel at that time.

I'm actually enjoying being home (it really is a beautiful country...)
and will probably move towards writing things other than software in the
coming year.

I used to love traveling, but I think I've been everywhere I want to
go... :-)

They are opening the borders again so I might give it some thought but,
for now at least, I'm very happy to enjoy my own place and be thankful.

As international travel starts to resume, I'll take this opportunity to
extend to any of the people here, an invitation to come and visit. If NZ
is on your travel plans, drop by my place and share a beer, wine, or
coffee...

Cheers,

[Gilberto Junior]

I Pete,

If one day you want to know a place that maybe you never came
I invite you to come to Brazil, and you will be my guest in my house.

I have good coffee, wine and beer and a lot of hospitality.


Regards

Gilberto Junior

[pete dashwood]

Hi Gilberto,

Thanks for this very kind invitation.

South America is one of the (few...) places on Earth I have not been.

There is a Brazilian restaurant here in Tauranga and I love the food
there and the drinks they serve... :-)

It is unlikely I'll take up your invitation as I'm getting to an age
where air travel is just a hassle (especially long haul), but I wanted
you to know I really appreciate your kindness.

Thanks,