Numeric values
Kevin
I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
Would the following have the same numeric values?
012 12.00 12 -12
Thank you
Kevin
docd...@panix.com
Kevin <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
>Hello,
>I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
Please do your own homework.
DD
Kevin
have searched through 3 books and could not find a clear answer to my
question. I thought I could post the question here and get a professional
answer. Guess I was wrong!
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a2qikc$7r7$1...@panix1.panix.com...
lsu...@mb.sympatico.ca
wrote:
012 = 12.00 = 12 not = -12
--
Lorne Sunley
Terry Heinze
PICTURE and USAGE clauses more.
--
....Terry
"Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u51g1a7...@corp.supernews.com...
Ed Guy
PICTURE and USAGE clauses. In an unsigned numeric, even 12 and -12 are identical - but
the computer has to work hard to make them so.
Kevin wrote:
>
> I apologize if I did anything wrong by posting a question on this group. I
> have searched through 3 books and could not find a clear answer to my
> question. I thought I could post the question here and get a professional
> answer. Guess I was wrong!
> <docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a2qikc$7r7$1...@panix1.panix.com..
> > In article <u51g1a7...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > Kevin <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> > >Hello,
> > >I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
> >
> > Please do your own homework.
> >
> > DD
> >
--
Ed Guy P.Eng,CDP,MIEE
Information Technology Consultant
Internet: ed_...@NOSPAMguysoftware.com remove NOSPAM from email address.
http://www.guysoftware.com
"Check out HELLLP!, WinHelp author tool for WinWord 2.0 through 2000,
PlanBee Project Management Planning and Scheduling
and ParseRat, the File Parser, Converter and Reorganizer"
docd...@panix.com
Kevin <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
>I apologize if I did anything wrong by posting a question on this group.
'Posting a question' is not quite the same as 'asking others to do my
homework'.
>I
>have searched through 3 books and could not find a clear answer to my
>question.
Which three books? Perhaps it was covered in the lecture the day you
skipped class?
>I thought I could post the question here and get a professional
>answer. Guess I was wrong!
Professionals will often tell you to do your own homework.
Get used to it.
DD
Kevin
regarding the PIC clause.
Thanks again
Kevin
"Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:u51g1a7...@corp.supernews.com...
Howard Brazee
On 24-Jan-2002, "Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
>
>
> Would the following have the same numeric values?
>
> 012 12.00 12 -12
What did you get when you wrote a program to test this out?
Kevin
James Cooper. In a section in the book, it talks about compairing numeric
fields. An example is given as follows: 012, 12.00, 12, +12 values are
considered equal. I wasn't sure if a simple -12 would be the same unless one
used PIC S9(3). The book was just not real clear.
Thanks again
Kevin
"Howard Brazee" <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote in message
news:a2rrk5$78$1...@peabody.colorado.edu...
Howard Brazee
On 25-Jan-2002, "Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> I have not tested it yet. I am reading a book, "Programming in Cobol/400"
> by
> James Cooper. In a section in the book, it talks about compairing numeric
> fields. An example is given as follows: 012, 12.00, 12, +12 values are
> considered equal. I wasn't sure if a simple -12 would be the same unless
> one used PIC S9(3). The book was just not real clear.
The way to make it clear is by testing. Look for yourself and you will
learn better.
But your hypothesis seems odd -
PIC S9(3) is a picture of a signed numeric. If you move -12 to such a
location, wouldn't it store the sign? And if it stores the sign, don't you
think it would know the difference between -12 and +12?
01 TEST-FIELDS.
05 TEST-1 PIC 9(3).
05 TEST-2 PIC S9(3)V99.
05 TEST-3 PIC 9(3)V99.
05 TEST-4 PIC S9(3).
01 DISPLAY-FIELD PIC ----9.99.
...
TEST-PARAGRAPH.
MOVE 12 TO TEST-1, TEST-2, TEST-3, TEST-4.
PERFORM DISPLAY-VALUES.
MOVE 012 TO TEST-1, TEST-2, TEST-3, TEST-4.
PERFORM DISPLAY-VALUES.
MOVE 12.00 TO TEST-1, TEST-2, TEST-3, TEST-4.
PERFORM DISPLAY-VALUES.
MOVE +12 TO TEST-1, TEST-2, TEST-3, TEST-4.
PERFORM DISPLAY-VALUES.
MOVE -12 TO TEST-1, TEST-2, TEST-3, TEST-4.
PERFORM DISPLAY-VALUES.
DISPLAY-VALUES.
DISPLAY ' '.
MOVE TEST-1 TO DISPLAY-FIELD.
DISPLAY 'TEST-1="' DISPLAY-FIELD '"'.
MOVE TEST-2 TO DISPLAY-FIELD'.
DISPLAY 'TEST-2='" DISPLAY-FIELD '"'.
MOVE TEST-3 TO DISPLAY-FIELD .
DISPLAY 'TEST-3="' DISPLAY-FIELD '"'.
MOVE TEST-4 TO DISPLAY-FIELD.
DISPLAY 'TEST-4="' DISPLAY-FIELD '"'.
Rational One
Docdwarf never has anything nice to say
get used to him and others like him
many others on this site will actually help you
Rational One
Opus
FWIW, this will work well with the data, S99V99.
What are you confused about??
Jeff
Opus
True.. but I must be getting soft in my old age or I just am used to
answering questions like this. The Mrs is taking programming classes..
*sigh*
Jeff
docd...@panix.com
When it comes to folks asking to have their homework done by others my
response is standard.
DD
William M. Klein
questions,
"18.1 Can I get help with homework via the newsgroups?
Yes, you can get help with your homework via these newsgroups. HOWEVER, that
does mean that you will receive help - you will NOT find many participants
who will be very happy if you ask them to do your homework FOR YOU. Some
hints that you should consider when drafting your post for assistance with
homework include:
· Make it clear from the beginning that you are asking for homework
help. (Most of the newsgroup participants are very good at sniffing out
those who try and pose homework questions as "business need" questions - and
they are not very polite in replying to such questions).
· Make certain that you specify what compiler and operating system
your homework is targeted at. Solutions may vary significantly based on
this. (You might also want to include what text book you are using.)
· The more information that you can give that demonstrates that you
really have tried to solve the problem yourself (using your text book, class
material/presentations, lab assistance, etc), the more likely it is that you
will get useful and friendly responses. If you let us know what you have
found on your own and why you are still uncertain or confused, you will
usually get helpful responses; if it looks like you are asking us questions
without trying to solve it yourself, you are likely to get very pointed
replies.
NOTE: if you are looking for a COBOL tutor, (and don't want to see the "Do
your own homework" notes that occur in the COBOL newsgroups), you might want
to try,
"
The full FAQ can be read at,
http://cobolreport.com/faqs/cobolfaq.htm
It should also be noted, that comp.lang.cobol is a NON-moderated newsgroup.
Therefore, DD is "free" to post his usual response to any/all "homework
appearing" questions, and others are free to post "nasty" comments about his
usual response. I don't personally find either of these particularly
"useful" - but they do continue to occur.
I *do* strongly support DD's view that *students* should "show us their
work" and *try* to find the answers via normal "course resources" *before*
asking us questions. OTOH, there is NOTHING to force them to do so.
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a2s3r5$881$1...@panix1.panix.com...
Richard Plinston
>
> I have not tested it yet. I am reading a book, "Programming in Cobol/400" by
> James Cooper. In a section in the book, it talks about compairing numeric
> fields. An example is given as follows: 012, 12.00, 12, +12 values are
> considered equal. I wasn't sure if a simple -12 would be the same unless one
> used PIC S9(3). The book was just not real clear.
Why would you think that +12 and -12 could have the same numeric value ?
IF ( 12 = -12 )
DISPLAY "I don't think so"
END-IF
I think that you asked completely the wrong question. What you _may_
have wanted to ask was:
"What is the numeric value of:
01 My-Number PIC 9(3).
MOVE -12 TO My-Number.
To be a succesful programmer you must be able to formulate the questions
in a way that gets the answer that you want, and vv, be able to
understand a question is phrased to obtain a specific answer.
No. -12 does not have the same numeric value as +12. After these have
been moved into numeric fields they may not have the same value due to
truncation or other effects.
But in other languages it may be that 12 does not = 12.0, and 012 does
not = 12:
if ( 12 != 12.0 )
puts("12 not 12.0, I told you so");
if ( 012 != 12 )
puts("012 not = 12, are you surprised ?");
if ( 012 == 10 )
puts("How can 012 equal 10 ?");
which is why the point was being made.
docd...@panix.com
William M. Klein <wmk...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[snippage]
>Therefore, DD is "free" to post his usual response to any/all "homework
>appearing" questions, and others are free to post "nasty" comments about his
>usual response.
I've felt more-or-less free ever since 1 Jan 1863... the ol' Emancipation
Proclamation and all that.
> I don't personally find either of these particularly
>"useful" - but they do continue to occur.
It can be argued that a world in which everything is 'particularly
"useful"' would be a dreary, utilitarian place devoid of art or flights of
fancy.
(wasn't it Faraday who asked 'What is the use of a newborn baby?'?)
DD
James J. Gavan
"William M. Klein" wrote:
> From the COBOL FAQ - here is what it (unlike DD) says about Homework
> questions,
>
> "18.1 Can I get help with homework via the newsgroups?
> Yes, you can get help with your homework via these newsgroups. HOWEVER, that
> does mean that you will receive help - you will NOT find many participants
> who will be very happy if you ask them to do your homework FOR YOU. Some
> hints that you should consider when drafting your post for assistance with
> homework include:
>
> · Make it clear from the beginning that you are asking for homework
> help. (Most of the newsgroup participants are very good at sniffing out
> those who try and pose homework questions as "business need" questions - and
> they are not very polite in replying to such questions).<snip>...........
A thought. We need to get at the students so that they *know* - but
unfortunately we have no idea where they first start looking, (certainly not
your COBOL FAQ <G>). Chances are, many instructors DO read cobolreport.com. Howz
about drafting a short entry for Ed that will catch instructors' eyes - so that
they can tell their students to read the COBOL FAQ ?
We have a couple of known instructors - Floyd and Volker - do either of you
have any comment on above suggestion ?
Jimmy
Rational One
questions and maybe even do a bit more legwork before coming here but can't
we be a bit more helpful ?
If you are going to give a standard "nasty" response like 'do your own
homework' - why bother to answer at all.....it makes us all seem like
a**holes
some answers were kind and thoughtful, some terse but meaningful in an
instructive way
like 'what did the test program you wrote show' - great answer....puts the
onus on the question poser to do some work and not nearly as "nasty" as the
DD 'usual' response
"William M. Klein" <wmk...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:a2s7s0$hps$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
docd...@panix.com
Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote:
[snippage]
>If you are going to give a standard "nasty" response like 'do your own
>homework' - why bother to answer at all.....it makes us all seem like
>a**holes
... as opposed, of course, to those who claim to want to 'clear the air'
and then do so by calling people names... but I digress.
To show someone that there comes a point where one's ruses become Rather
Obvious - e.g., that Professional Programmers just might be able to
recognise a Homework Question as homework, and not 'idle curiousity' -
might be a moderately valuable demonstration.
As for nastiness... ther are some folks who are able to distinguish being
nasty from being tersely polite; note the consistent use of 'please'.
DD
Kevin
I was not actually asking anyone to do "homework". I am 40 years old, and I
am not a student. I have found that news groups can offer some of the best
help at times. It's frightening to me to come in contact with someone who
draws conclusions with so little factual info.
Anyway, a many thanks to all for the input.
Kevin
"Rational One" <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
news:L%f48.5985$RD5....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
docd...@panix.com
It seemed you did a good imitation of one, then.
>I am 40 years old, and I
>am not a student.
Homework does not stop with age... but how sad that you seem to feel that
having a few decades means you have to deprive yourself of the joys of
studying!
DD
Floyd Johnson
to the faq and to comp.lang.cobol in google (or some other publically
available source) might be helpful.
Each semester that I teach COBOL I let students know about
comp.lang.cobol - though I don't think I have seen any evidence that they
have used it directly. I also include a link the group (i.e. via google)
on the course INTRANET page. I occasionally use a question as a case
study when it relates to something we cover in our "file structures"
course.
A number of years ago (8 ?), I did have a pascal student make use of the
pascal groups - but it is the only time that I have know it to occur
legitmately. That does not include the student who copied a paper off the
net - it was so well written, that I had to check. I found four copies of
it at different locations around the web. He got a ZERO on the assignment
and was kicked off the schools basketball team for a semester! [:)]
I know that I have spoken about Thane's help in the past; but over the
four years that I have been teaching COBOL, the group has done a lot to
make my course a better course. Thanks.
Floyd Johnson
===================================================================
This could probably be a modification the faq's
comments aobut homework.
James J. Gavan (jjg...@shaw.ca) wrote:
: A thought. We need to get at the students so that they *know* - but
: unfortunately we have no idea where they first start looking, (certainly not
: your COBOL FAQ <G>). Chances are, many instructors DO read cobolreport.com. Howz
: about drafting a short entry for Ed that will catch instructors' eyes - so that
: they can tell their students to read the COBOL FAQ ?
: We have a couple of known instructors - Floyd and Volker - do either of you
: have any comment on above suggestion ?
: Jimmy
--
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Floyd H. Johnson |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Voice : (716) 594 - 0942 | 87 Parkway Drive |
| E-Mail : flo...@netins.net | North Chili, NY 14514 |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------+
| http://bounce.to/Roberts |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| If you think you understand Him, |
| then you really do not know HIM !! |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Jack Sleight
I see you've already met Doc. I've always thought he should've chosen
Grumpy as his Nom de Guerre (I know I'm inviting some sort of "Dopey"
retort from that Poopee Head).
Anyway, data representation and related topics are probably the most
important and confusing aspects of pgmming for a beginner.
The data types, A/N, num packed, num display, num binary and the way
they're represented in memory, how they're defined in the pgm, what
happens when one type is moved to another (sometimes the format of
the data changes, sometimes the pgm abends), you'll learn all of this
and more (and the sooner the better - you can't be a good pgmr w/o
knowing this stuff).
Don't let Doc discourage you from asking questions. He's an OK guy;
just lacks the social graces <G>. It's always a good idea to let us
know what you tried, what results you got, where you looked, etc.
Good Luck with your new adventure.
Jack
Opus <yo_d...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<8v335u00fvev22m5f...@4ax.com>...
Peter E. C. Dashwood
Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
news:L%f48.5985$RD5....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
line.
I haven't seen any actual "help" from you, but then it is early days yet...
Stimulating debate is one thing; actually sharing practical experience is
quite another.
Pete.
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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docd...@panix.com
Peter E. C. Dashwood <dash...@nospam.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
>news:L%f48.5985$RD5....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
>> Kevin
>>
>> Docdwarf never has anything nice to say
>> get used to him and others like him
>> many others on this site will actually help you
>>
>The Doc has been helping people here for years.
Pfoo, me? Really, Mr Dashwood, all I do is point out Obvious Things...
those who can benefit from that can't be All That Much! I'd blush, were I
able to remember how.
>Your comment is way out of
>line.
Others might say that his comment was *perfectly* in line... with
everything else he's posted here.
DD
docd...@panix.com
Jack Sleight <jacks...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi Kevin,
>
>I see you've already met Doc. I've always thought he should've chosen
>Grumpy as his Nom de Guerre (I know I'm inviting some sort of "Dopey"
>retort from that Poopee Head).
Just the standard, Mr Sleight: 'I am *not* a part of that 'Snow White'
crowd.'
[snippissmus]
>Don't let Doc discourage you from asking questions. He's an OK guy;
>just lacks the social graces <G>. It's always a good idea to let us
>know what you tried, what results you got, where you looked, etc.
*Bingo*... anyone can say 'I've tried all kinds of stuff' or 'I've
searched a shore's-worth of parchment covered with a sea's-worth of ink!';
to show the results of such attempts is another matter, entire.
DD
Thane Hubbell
LOT of questions. If I have to "work" a bit to answer the question -
then I consider it very legitimate. If, however, it's very simple - I
usually point them to the documentation.
Now - what I get even more of is Analytical questions. It bothers me
that some people just can't work through a problem to find a solution
- one minor stumbling block and they give up. I'm not above asking a
question MYSELF when I can't figure something out. However, you can
rest assured I've exhausted my experience and resources in finding the
answer. That's not to say it doesn't have a simple solution - that's
obvious to someone else!
At any rate, what I've found is that it's a personality thing. Some
people want the easy answer and some are willing to dig to learn.
"Encouraging" individuals to do their own home work and not grab the
easy answer is doing them a service that they will (or should) thank
you for later.
docd...@panix.com wrote in message news:<a2sebc$bm9$1...@panix1.panix.com>...
SkippyPB
<kmille...@charter.net> enlightened us:
>I have not tested it yet. I am reading a book, "Programming in Cobol/400" by
>James Cooper. In a section in the book, it talks about compairing numeric
>fields. An example is given as follows: 012, 12.00, 12, +12 values are
>considered equal. I wasn't sure if a simple -12 would be the same unless one
>used PIC S9(3). The book was just not real clear.
>
>Thanks again
>Kevin
If you had stated the above in your first post, you may have gotten
the responses you were looking for. It looked like a homework
question to me as well and I thought Doc's standard answer was
appropriate.
Most here in CLC will help with homework if the poster shows what
they've done to date and what they are having a problem with. It
serves them no benefit to just have answers given to them without
their having first tried to learn the subject. You may want to read
the CLC FAQ which goes into more detail about homework.
Now, as to your problem. Remember that computers and computer
languages must operate on the basic principles of mathematics.
Therefore, 5th grade math tells us that 012, 12.00, 12 and +12 are all
equivalent. You may have had to wait until algebra in 8th grade to
know that -12 is not equivalent to the others. The computer must
operate on the same principle. However, the computer language or how
the data is described within it, can present the number to the
computer differently, thus possibly causing them to not be equivalent.
For example, and sticking with Cobol examples here, if you have a data
field described as Pic S9(3) and you placed within that field 012, or
12.00, or 12 or +12, they would all be held in storage as +012. In
the case of 12.00, the decimal portion would be ignored. In all
cases, the field is right justified and zero filled. The field could
accurately hold -12 as -012 and, according to the rules of
mathematics, would not be equivalent to the other data.
Now, if your field was defined as Pic 9(3), then all the
aforementioned values would be equivalent because the sign is dropped.
If the field is defined as Pic S9(3)V99, then the equivalency in this
case is the same as if there were no decimals. Pic 9(3)V99 in this
case gives the same results as Pic 9(3).
Finally, if your field was defined as Pic X(3), then none would be
equivalent.
>"Howard Brazee" <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote in message
>news:a2rrk5$78$1...@peabody.colorado.edu...
>>
>> On 24-Jan-2002, "Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
>> >
>> >
>> > Would the following have the same numeric values?
>> >
>> > 012 12.00 12 -12
>>
>> What did you get when you wrote a program to test this out?
>
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
The secret of a happy marriage remains a secret.
-- Henny Youngman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
SkippyPB
>In article <a2s7s0$hps$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>William M. Klein <wmk...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>[snippage]
>
>>Therefore, DD is "free" to post his usual response to any/all "homework
>>appearing" questions, and others are free to post "nasty" comments about his
>>usual response.
>
>I've felt more-or-less free ever since 1 Jan 1863... the ol' Emancipation
>Proclamation and all that.
>
Man..you really ARE an old guy!! :)
>> I don't personally find either of these particularly
>>"useful" - but they do continue to occur.
>
>It can be argued that a world in which everything is 'particularly
>"useful"' would be a dreary, utilitarian place devoid of art or flights of
>fancy.
>
>(wasn't it Faraday who asked 'What is the use of a newborn baby?'?)
>
And what useful purpose does shuffleboard serve?
>DD
James J. Gavan
Thane Hubbell wrote:
> I get a lot of questions. Over time some specific individuals ask a
> LOT of questions. If I have to "work" a bit to answer the question -
> then I consider it very legitimate. If, however, it's very simple - I
> usually point them to the documentation.
>
> Now - what I get even more of is Analytical questions. It bothers me
> that some people just can't work through a problem to find a solution
> - one minor stumbling block and they give up. I'm not above asking a
> question MYSELF when I can't figure something out. However, you can
> rest assured I've exhausted my experience and resources in finding the
> answer. That's not to say it doesn't have a simple solution - that's
> obvious to someone else!
>
> At any rate, what I've found is that it's a personality thing. Some
> people want the easy answer and some are willing to dig to learn.
> "Encouraging" individuals to do their own home work and not grab the
> easy answer is doing them a service that they will (or should) thank
> you for later.
>
I accept what you say, but a slightly different take on the topic. I feel
particularly sympathetic towards students confronted with learning programming,
particularly if they are thrown into those 'other' OO languages; COBOL lends
itself more immediately to business problems.
One immediate problem, that Floyd has already pointed out, is the limited
timespan at a learning centre to get a programming course across. I
particularly latched on to your word 'Analytical'. Just like systems analysis
can't be taught, (you can only guide), the same applies to being analytical -
you either are or aren't - and if the latter, perhaps you shouldn't be in EDP.
(This ties in with your comment about being a 'personality thing').. Some here
love to get into the bits and bytes. For myself, having read the theory
(Language Reference Manuals), how do I apply that in the real world.
Having 'attempted' to learn machine code and Assembler back in '63, I breathed
a sigh of relief that I was to be an analyst rather than a programmer; and that
'program learning' merely gave a sense of how the problem was to be handled
when we arrived at our systems design. (It was at a BEA Training Centre - the
best part was looking at the young trainee stewardesses - no 'grannies' around
in those days <G>).
Note that when I did get into COBOL programming, (preceded by Datapoint's
DATABUS and Wang WP macros), I didn't find it any big deal, because of the
systems analysis background. Took three shots at reading the LRMs (1) Skim, (2)
A second Skim and (3) Pause and read in detail on specific topics that I *felt*
I would use. Note that the three 'reads' also gave me my own 'memory index' -
if something came up, the memory box triggered that I had read about it
somewhere.
Consider something like merchandise ordering for a retail group. Aeons ago,
there just weren't too many models to work from, so you were faced with a blank
whiteboard on which you made many scribblings with felt pens, and did a lot of
wiping out and re-drawing, until perhaps six months later, you can up with a
viable model.
Students just don't get near this approach at all - never seeing or visualizing
the 'grand scheme of things'. And this I think, is their major problem. Give
them a task, read in a file, put into a table, accumulate and write out a new
file or report - they may or may not comprehend, but they are left wondering
where this particular task might fit as a segment into a real world
application. Plus of course, "Why doesn't 12 equal -012. Hell ! They've both
got a '1' and a '2' in them !".
Jimmy
Ed Guy
> Having 'attempted' to learn machine code and Assembler back in '63, I breathed
> a sigh of relief that I was to be an analyst rather than a programmer; and that
> 'program learning' merely gave a sense of how the problem was to be handled
> when we arrived at our systems design. (It was at a BEA Training Centre - the
> best part was looking at the young trainee stewardesses - no 'grannies' around
> in those days <G>).
You've got to be about the only person around here older than me!!!
How many of those trainee stews are still doing what they were training for in 1963?
--
Ed Guy P.Eng,CDP,MIEE
Information Technology Consultant
Internet: ed_...@NOSPAMguysoftware.com remove NOSPAM from email address.
http://www.guysoftware.com
"Check out HELLLP!, WinHelp author tool for WinWord 2.0 through 2000,
PlanBee Project Management Planning and Scheduling
and ParseRat, the File Parser, Converter and Reorganizer"
Ed Guy
>
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
> > Having 'attempted' to learn machine code and Assembler back in '63, I breathed
> > a sigh of relief that I was to be an analyst rather than a programmer; and that
> > 'program learning' merely gave a sense of how the problem was to be handled
> > when we arrived at our systems design. (It was at a BEA Training Centre - the
> > best part was looking at the young trainee stewardesses - no 'grannies' around
> > in those days <G>).
>
> You've got to be about the only person around here older than me!!!
>
> How many of those trainee stews are still doing what they were training for in 1963?
>
Sorry - I forgot you are in Calgary. Some of them are probably working for Air Canada!
Michael Mattias
> And what useful purpose does shuffleboard serve?
To the extent that a game of shuffleboard takes time from other activities,
it prevents unwanted pregnancies among senior citizens.
MCM
James J. Gavan
Ed Guy wrote:
> James J. Gavan wrote:
>
> > Having 'attempted' to learn machine code and Assembler back in '63, I breathed
> > a sigh of relief that I was to be an analyst rather than a programmer; and that
> > 'program learning' merely gave a sense of how the problem was to be handled
> > when we arrived at our systems design. (It was at a BEA Training Centre - the
> > best part was looking at the young trainee stewardesses - no 'grannies' around
> > in those days <G>).
>
> You've got to be about the only person around here older than me!!!
>
Not quite. Three score and ten. Warren beats that by 8. He was a friend of 'our Gracie'.
Served on our earliest COBOL Committees. Haven't met him - but he's probably got the
scars to prove it !
>
> How many of those trainee stews are still doing what they were training for in 1963?
>
If they played their cards right it's probably 'Call me Madam', assuming they married
into the peerage or became 'Manageresses' for those curb-side fairies that used to haunt
Soho. Jeez they were good to look at back in '63, (the stewardesses, I mean), and that
doesn't imply one had to get to *know* them in the biblical sense <G>.
Jimmy
docd...@panix.com
SkippyPB <swie...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>On 25 Jan 2002 14:00:27 -0500, docd...@panix.com enlightened us:
>
>>In article <a2s7s0$hps$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
>>William M. Klein <wmk...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snippage]
>>
>>>Therefore, DD is "free" to post his usual response to any/all "homework
>>>appearing" questions, and others are free to post "nasty" comments about his
>>>usual response.
>>
>>I've felt more-or-less free ever since 1 Jan 1863... the ol' Emancipation
>>Proclamation and all that.
>>
>
>Man..you really ARE an old guy!! :)
And a musical one, too... ever since the assassination of an Egyptian
President I've been singing 'Nasser's In De Col', Col' Groun''.
>
>>> I don't personally find either of these particularly
>>>"useful" - but they do continue to occur.
>>
>>It can be argued that a world in which everything is 'particularly
>>"useful"' would be a dreary, utilitarian place devoid of art or flights of
>>fancy.
>>
>>(wasn't it Faraday who asked 'What is the use of a newborn baby?'?)
>>
>
>And what useful purpose does shuffleboard serve?
It provides a use for all that shuffleboard equipment.
DD
Ed Guy
> If they played their cards right it's probably 'Call me Madam', assuming they married
> into the peerage or became 'Manageresses' for those curb-side fairies that used to haunt
> Soho. Jeez they were good to look at back in '63, (the stewardesses, I mean), and that
> doesn't imply one had to get to *know* them in the biblical sense <G>.
I guess I missed something by being in the "Square Mile", rather than the more
interesting bits of London (I was in the CEGB Paternoster development that Prince
Charles hated so much). However we were near enough to the Mermaid Theatre to go to the
lunchtime films shows that Bernard Miles put on to help pay the bills - and I can
remember paying my shilling to his daughter, Sarah.
James J. Gavan
docd...@panix.com wrote:
> In article <3D805A98882C3495.EE88F744...@lp.airnews.net>,
> SkippyPB <swie...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> >On 25 Jan 2002 14:00:27 -0500, docd...@panix.com enlightened us:
> >
> >>In article <a2s7s0$hps$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>,
> >>William M. Klein <wmk...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>[snippage]
> >>
> >>>Therefore, DD is "free" to post his usual response to any/all "homework
> >>>appearing" questions, and others are free to post "nasty" comments about his
> >>>usual response.
> >>
> >>I've felt more-or-less free ever since 1 Jan 1863... the ol' Emancipation
> >>Proclamation and all that.
> >>
> >
> >Man..you really ARE an old guy!! :)
>
> And a musical one, too... ever since the assassination of an Egyptian
> President I've been singing 'Nasser's In De Col', Col' Groun''.
>
Going from memory, I think you've got your wires crossed. The 'beloved' Gamel Abel
N. DIED and was mourned in a great outpouring by the Egyptian people. You gotta be
thinking of Anwar Sadat, Mubarak's predecessor..
Jimmy
docd...@panix.com
Perhaps I bloomed late when it came to such singings.
DD
Sean Eby
> In article <u51jvto...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Kevin <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> >I apologize if I did anything wrong by posting a question on this group.
>
> 'Posting a question' is not quite the same as 'asking others to do my
> homework'.
>
> >I
> >have searched through 3 books and could not find a clear answer to my
> >question.
>
> Which three books? Perhaps it was covered in the lecture the day you
> skipped class?
>
> >I thought I could post the question here and get a professional
> >answer. Guess I was wrong!
>
> Professionals will often tell you to do your own homework.
>
> Get used to it.
>
> DD
>
> ><docd...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a2qikc$7r7$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> >> In article <u51g1a7...@corp.supernews.com>,
> >> Kevin <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> >Hello,
> >> >I am a beginner in COBOL. I am a bit confused about comparisons.
> >>
> >>
> >> DD
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Wow... that is sick. A 'professional'? Well, you must be a 'real'
programmer! WHOA!
SE
docd...@panix.com
I don't recall where I claimed to be either... but it might be that I've
met one or two, some time or place.
DD
JerryMouse
"James J. Gavan" <jjg...@shaw.ca>
>
> Going from memory, I think you've got your wires crossed. The 'beloved'
Gamel Abel
> N. DIED and was mourned in a great outpouring by the Egyptian people. You
gotta be
> thinking of Anwar Sadat, Mubarak's predecessor..
Sadly, those who attended from the university founded by Nasser's
predecessor were never able to work in the west. Seems no one would hire a
graduate of "Farouk U."
Howard Brazee
On 25-Jan-2002, "Kevin" <kmille...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was not actually asking anyone to do "homework". I am 40 years old, and
> I am not a student.
Hopefully, I will always be a student.
I was 48 when I got my masters.
Rational One
you are nasty and impolite
oh wait a minute let me rephrase that
PLEASE reread some of your own messages !
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a2sebc$bm9$1...@panix1.panix.com...
Rational One
you are as nasty as Docdwarf
why do you need to enquote "help" - are you being meanspirited and
attempting to insult me ?
and you are wrong - I "helped" with an answer about picture clauses about a
week ago
when many others were nasty with their answers I and a few others actually
"tried" to offer some helpful advice
"Peter E. C. Dashwood" <dash...@nospam.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c525...@Usenet.com...
docd...@panix.com
I have.
>
>you are nasty and impolite
Repeating an assertion does make it any more true; you might want to
consider documenting it, if such an activity is within your capabilities.
DD
James J. Gavan
JerryMouse wrote:
Jerry,
Loved it. loved it, even if you did 'bend' history a teensy-weensy bit <G>.
Between King Farouk and Nasser it was General Neguib.
Jimmy
Peter E. C. Dashwood
> If you have seen no "help" from me then I have two things to tell you
>
> you are as nasty as Docdwarf
Oh! NOOOOOooooooooooo!!!!
That was definitely meant to wound...<G>
(Actually I could never aspire to reach the dizzy heights of ascerbity that
the Doc attains...But I'll keep trying, if you push me...<G>)
> why do you need to enquote "help" - are you being meanspirited and
> attempting to insult me ?
>
"Help" was enquoted because sometimes "help" isn't any help at all... If you
give the wrong kind of help at the wrong moment, you can actually do more
damage than good. You can even rob someone of the exquisite pleasure of
solving a problem for themselves, and the satisfaction and growth that
follows from this. If you give "help" just to show how much you know about
the subject or to impress your friends, you might as well not come here at
all.
As for attempting to insult you, two things:
1. Why would I do that? There is no gain for me in insulting someone I have
never met. (I try not to do it with people I HAVE met...don't always succeed
though.) Sometimes you can imagine you are being attacked when, in fact, you
are not.
2. Should I decide to insult you, (for whatever unimaginable reason...), it
will not be an "attempt", you will KNOW you were insulted...<G>
As for being meanspirited, well, that is a matter of public record...<G>
Here's a story for you...
Are you sitting comfortably? Good. Then I'll begin....
A traveller approaches the Gates of a great city.
He sees an old man, dressed in rags, sitting in the dust, warming his
ancient bones in the hot sun.
The traveller addresses the old man...
"What are the people in this City like?"
"What were the people in the City you came from like?"
The traveller shudders at the memory.
"They were awful. Mean, money-grubbing, unkind, impolite, unfriendly,
unhelpful, a real bunch of nasty no-hopers. That's why I left..."
The old man nods gently and says:
"I'm afraid they're just the same here..."
The traveller decides to move on and try his luck at the next city.
The old man dozes...
Presently, the sound of a tired horse approaching makes him raise his head.
Another traveller stands before him and asks the same question:
"What are the people in this City like?"
The old man responds...
"What were the people in the City you came from like?"
"Ah, they were marvellous! Good, decent, generous folk. Always a smile and a
helping hand where needed, truly the salt of the Earth. In fact I'm
wondering if the Wander Lust that brought me here was such a good thing... I
had many good and genuine friends back there..."
The old man stands up and opens the gate.
"You will find the same decent people here. Welcome to our City..."
They go into the City together.
> and you are wrong - I "helped" with an answer about picture clauses about
a
> week ago
> when many others were nasty with their answers I and a few others actually
> "tried" to offer some helpful advice
>
See my comments about "help" above. If your heart was in the right place,
well, that's a start.
docd...@panix.com
Peter E. C. Dashwood <dash...@nospam.enternet.co.nz> wrote:
>
>Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
>news:07f58.8487$y57....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>> If you have seen no "help" from me then I have two things to tell you
>>
>> you are as nasty as Docdwarf
>
>Oh! NOOOOOooooooooooo!!!!
>
>That was definitely meant to wound...<G>
>(Actually I could never aspire to reach the dizzy heights of ascerbity that
>the Doc attains...But I'll keep trying, if you push me...<G>)
Before or after you reach any 'heights'?
[snippissmus]
>They go into the City together.
As I heard that told, long ago, the Old Man lived in a house on the
outskirts of a village in the Old Country (Brooklyn?), begins his answers
with 'You know... I've lived outside of this village all my life' and told
the second lad (both lads were described as 'a young man with a pack on
his back') to go down the street and talk to (tradesman), saying (old
man's name) sent him and maybe there was some work. After that Mrs Old
Man came out and upbraided her husband for telling one A and the other Z,
the first black and the second white and what sense did it make?
... and the Old Man smiles and says 'You know, I've lived outside of this
village all my life and I've found that young men often carry their old
villages in the packs on their backs.'
DD
Rational One
seems to me that neither of you seek to offer any help to any user of this
post group
you just want to sit back and poke fun at people who need want help
whether they "deserve" it or not
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a3567n$q2f$1...@panix1.panix.com...
docd...@panix.com
How you 'take' things and what is being done by others might just not be
the same things.
>
>seems to me that neither of you seek to offer any help to any user of this
>post group
See above, substituting 'How things seem to you' for 'How you 'take'
things'.
>you just want to sit back and poke fun at people who need want help
>whether they "deserve" it or not
Ummmmmm... no. Folks who come asking that others do their own homework
for them get asked, politely, to do their own and pimps who post offers
without a rate (or range of rates) get informed of outcomes of this
practise which they might not have forseen; outside of that things are a
bit less... predictable.
DD
Michael Mattias
> .. pimps who post offers without a rate (or range of rates) get informed
of outcomes of this
> practise which they might not have forseen...
If all that matters when recruiters (agency or direct) post a job opening is
the "rate (or range of rates)," then who's the true pimp?
MCM
Peter E. C. Dashwood
> So I take it that this is a game to you and Doc..........
>
> seems to me that neither of you seek to offer any help to any user of this
> post group
> you just want to sit back and poke fun at people who need want help
> whether they "deserve" it or not
>
(Puts on saffron robe, inserts ping pong balls into eyes, sits crossleggged
and smiles benignly at the (ir)Rational One)
Ah, little wounded Glasshopper, is not the whole of Life a Game?
Things are not always what they seem. Look again.
(Stands up, removes ping pong balls, returns to keyboard and continues
coding CGI COBOL program which has been driving him crazy all day...Ponders
on how great it would be if someone would do HIS homework or even HELP him
with it...smile fades.)
docd...@panix.com
Mr Mattias, try to do a bit of research and/or analysis and find where it
was stated that something was 'all that matters'... be that as it may,
though, I *cannot* resist...
... Real Consultants don't bother with such a question as they already
know the answer.
DD
Steve Thompson
>
> So I take it that this is a game to you and Doc..........
>
> seems to me that neither of you seek to offer any help to any user of this
> post group
> you just want to sit back and poke fun at people who need want help
> whether they "deserve" it or not
This thread has gone on entirely too long.
1) If you get answers from someone in a news group that you
get tired of, use your reader's tools to filter out any
postings from that poster (PLONK!). That's how a rational
person takes care of trolls and the like.
2) If you think this is bad, don't go asking questions in
any of the Linux news groups. You must become thicker
skinned. Those who worked hard at gaining their knowledge
sometimes think that they must make sport of those who do
not have that knowledge. A rational one will come to
recognize this behavior and live with it.
3) If you post in certain other news groups, and ask a
simple question, you may get reported for spamming if that
simple question is Off Topic. Which could cause you to lose
your email account. A tad irrational, but a rational person
would get the point and move on.
So be the rational one in a non rational world and quit
whining!
--
Steve Thompson
www.vsstrategies.com
330/335-9907 office
Notice: By sending UCE/BCE (a/k/a, spam) to this address,
you are accepting and agreeing to our charging a $1000 fee,
per spam item, for handling and processing, and you agree to
pay any and all costs for collecting this fee.
Rational One
group
what do I mean by calling you a bigger whiner......
look at your signature line about Spam, WHINER !!!!!
haven't you ever tried using a spam filter ?
God bless you !
"Steve Thompson" <sthomps...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3C56AE05...@ix.netcom.com...
warren.simmons
will see
that DOC stands upto anyone.
Warren Simmons
Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
news:EJp58.4788$LH1.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Rational One
so Doc 'stands up to anyone'......is that his sole purpose ?
why doesn't he offer help ?
as for the user that compared some Linux groups and their even more nasty
postings I have one question to ask
just because the Linux groups are nasty, must we be ?
just because people blow themselves up for a 'god', should we all ?
"warren.simmons" <warren....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:QpB58.292$0J6....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
docd...@panix.com
warren.simmons <warren....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Rational One must be a misnomer. Follow this NG for any time at all, and you
>will see
>that DOC stands upto anyone.
Not only that, Mr Simmons... but after week-or-so's worth of wearing my
blue-jeans stand up on their own, too!
DD
docd...@panix.com
Nietzsche said something about the goal of adulthood being to recapture
the seriousness of a child at play, you know.
>
>so Doc 'stands up to anyone'......is that his sole purpose ?
That was not stated, you might want to try addressing what was.
>
>why doesn't he offer help ?
It is my experience that doing someone' homework for them helps neither
them nor the folks with whom they'll work.
>
>as for the user that compared some Linux groups and their even more nasty
>postings I have one question to ask
>just because the Linux groups are nasty, must we be ?
>just because people blow themselves up for a 'god', should we all ?
Ummmmmm... that's *two* questions.
DD
Donald Tees
you. Seeing as Warren has been coding for longer than you have likely lived
(as have I, and Pete, and half the people in here), perhaps you should learn
a new adjective. I am a relative newbie at 35 years of programming compared
to both of them. I believe all three of us are grandparents, and are well
versed at handling obstreberous children, of all ages. Unniversity students
are nothing new.
As for you claims that we should all behave as you do, no. I do not think
we should, quite frankly. I also see no good reason for doing someone elses
work, free of charge, regardless of whether they think themselves adult,
programmer, consultant, technician, guru, or "childish".
Steve gave you good advice, about 2000 years old. When in Rome, do as the
Romans do. If you do not care to follow it, then expect flack. If
conversing with certain people gets your shorts in a knot, then do not
converse with them. Expecting them to convert to your way of thinking, and
calling them names because they will not is just testosterone.
Donald
"Rational One" <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
news:MRB58.4715$9U4.9438@rwcrnsc54...
Peter E. C. Dashwood
Comments below.
Steve Thompson <sthomps...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3C56AE05...@ix.netcom.com...
> Rational One wrote:
> >
> > So I take it that this is a game to you and Doc..........
> >
> > seems to me that neither of you seek to offer any help to any user of
this
> > post group
> > you just want to sit back and poke fun at people who need want help
> > whether they "deserve" it or not
> <snip>
>
> This thread has gone on entirely too long.
>
Simple solution: Don't read it.
> 1) If you get answers from someone in a news group that you
> get tired of, use your reader's tools to filter out any
> postings from that poster (PLONK!). That's how a rational
> person takes care of trolls and the like.
>
> 2) If you think this is bad, don't go asking questions in
> any of the Linux news groups. You must become thicker
> skinned.
Good point, and fair.
>>>>
> Those who worked hard at gaining their knowledge
> sometimes think that they must make sport of those who do
> not have that knowledge.
<<<<
As one who has worked for a lifetime gaining knowledge, I must protest.
I have NEVER thought it was OK to make sport of anyone who is pursuing
knowledge in a genuine spirit of enquiry. On the contrary, I have spent
thousands of hours working with people to pass on the knowledge gained, just
as the people who gave it to me did (and out of respect for many of them,
who are now dead.) Yes, I believe humour has a very important place in both
the Workplace and the Classroom, but there is a big difference between
gentle (or even savage) humour and making sport of people.
Rational One is carrying a chip the size of a California redwood. He
imagines he is injured whether the injury is real or not, has posted
intensely provocative stuff just for the sake of trolling, and then cries
like a baby when he is unable to achieve the desired result.
On the whole, I believe my responses to him have been restrained and much
less savage than he deserves. (Of course, I can't speak for the Doc <G>) I
have in fact, tried to get through to him and point out what giving help is
all about.
What would your reaction be to someone who says you do NOT "seek to offer
any help to any user of this
post group", when that is precisely what you have been doing for a number
of years here, and for a lifetime in the Workplace?
I am old enough and wise enough to not take it to heart, but I would be less
than human if I didn't respond with some degree of tartness.....
Charles Hottel
"The meaning of your communication is the response you get."
<snip>
warren.simmons
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a36qq8$ej9$1...@panix1.panix.com...
I wish I could say that. Nothing I have stands up anymore, and as to
wearing
anything long enough, it would put more stress on "Depends" than anything
else.
Some days, I get through 8 or 10 hours without change. <G>
Warren Simmons
Rational One
My response was simply that Kevin, the original poster of this thread should
not be too offended by people like Doc who seem to (in my opinion and via my
observations) never to offer help or have anything good to say. My response
was simple, to the point and not offensive. The responses of the childish
ones who belong to the same school of thought as Doc were the incendiary
ones.......
And....those same folks have the chip (cow) on their shoulders because
someone finally told them how pompous they are.....you all are just not that
important that you should be treating people that way.
"Peter E. C. Dashwood" <dash...@nospam.enternet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c573...@Usenet.com...
Rational One
one......
however, the second was more rhetorical than interrogative.......
also.....you deny that someone said that 'doc stands up to anyone' ?
seems to me to appear quite plainly in black and white
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a36r2r$f3i$1...@panix1.panix.com...
Charles Hottel
is conveyed on a non-verbal level. As we all know there is plenty of
miscommunication even so. In a newsgroup posting all we have is a text
representation of what we might say verbally. Typing is harder than
speaking so we tend to abbreviate even more. My point is that the chances
for miscommunication keep increasing as more and more information is
omitted. Many people asking for help do not give enough details and
sometimes it takes several exchanges to determine what problem they are
trying to solve. Sometimes they are trying to solve the wrong problem.
While all of this is taking place, some people respond to the lack of
information by what I call "mindreading". They assume that they know the
intentions or motivations of the poster in the absence of complete
information. I do not hold out much hope that this will change in the
short term. Perhaps when we are all using sound and video it will be
greatly reduced.
So what to do? As a poster you post hoping for some kind of response. If
you get the response that you want, then unless you want to post a "thank
you", you are done. You have succeeded in your communication. There may
have been many responses that fall outside of the range of what you were
seeking. If and how you respond to them is up to you. It is your time to
do with as you will. All of that is irrelevant to your original purpose in
posting, because you received response(s) that you were seeking. Of course
it may affect how others feel about helping you in the future.
What if none of the responses are what you wanted or there is no response.
Some people post the exact same thing to another newsgroup and somtimes
that is appropriate. Often it is not, but many people keep trying the same
thing over and over, even when the feedback is not what they want. Maybe it
is human nature. My point is if at first you do not succeed then try
something else, anything else, until you get the response you are seeking.
If being thin skinned or defensive or calling potential helpers names, etc.
works, then fine. If not then perhaps being thicker skinned or less
defensive or simply clarifying might work better. Keep your original goal
in mind.
One of the strengths of newsgroups is the variety of viewpoints available.
Choose what you find helpful and ignore what you find unhelpful. Exchange
ideas to get as many viewpoints as possible to choose from. My experience
is that if you do that without attacking or trying to change the other
persons strongly held opinions you will be more likely to succeed.
<snip>
docd...@panix.com
Rational One <norel...@nogod.com> wrote:
>two questions indeed......now you can stand very tall oh short monikered
>one......
Unlike Newton's predecessors your shoulders would appear to provide little
benefit.
>
>however, the second was more rhetorical than interrogative.......
A rhetorical question is a question still, last I looked... has something
changed about this and I've not been notified?
>
>also.....you deny that someone said that 'doc stands up to anyone' ?
No, I was responding to the question, not the sentence-fragment which
preceded it.
>seems to me to appear quite plainly in black and white
This is why it was never questioned, at least by me.
DD
docd...@panix.com
Ummmmm... thanks *e'er*-so-much, Mr Simmons; I am certain that we are now
all-the-richer for knowing such things. Getting older, however, still
usually beats the alternative.
DD
SkippyPB
<norel...@nogod.com> enlightened us:
>Peter,
>
>My response was simply that Kevin, the original poster of this thread should
>not be too offended by people like Doc who seem to (in my opinion and via my
>observations) never to offer help or have anything good to say. My response
>was simple, to the point and not offensive. The responses of the childish
>ones who belong to the same school of thought as Doc were the incendiary
>ones.......
>
>And....those same folks have the chip (cow) on their shoulders because
>someone finally told them how pompous they are.....you all are just not that
>important that you should be treating people that way.
>
If that's what you think, then you've missed the whole point that
Peter and others have been trying to make about whether or not they
should share knowledge. Simply put, everyone who participates in this
newsgroup are more than willing to share knowledge so long as the
requestor has shown they've tried solving whatever problem it is on
their own first. In the case of homework, this means showing some
coding and explaining what platform they are on and what problem they
are seeing. In the case of a fellow programmer, just an explanation
of the problem is usually enough.
For us, who have got our degrees, who have worked for many years in
the industry to just out and out do someone homework for them does a
disservice to that person (they're not going to learn it if someone
else does it) and could eventually weaken the industry itself, i.e.
put far too many people in programming situations who have no problem
solving skills or lack knowledge of the syntax of the language they
are to program in.
As for you comment about Doc not helping anyone, well you haven't been
in the newsgroup long enough to make that determination. I've seen
Doc contribute positive responses to legitimate requests for help more
than I've ever seen you contribute anything useful. Continual ranting
and whining about and berating of the participants of this newsgroup
does not count.
Regards,
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
I am a nobody, nobody is perfect, therefore I am perfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
Kevin
admit, I should have been more detailed with my question. Also, I certainly
understand if one chooses to not offer help to another. What I don't
understand is what useful purpose it serves to respond with rude and
negative remarks. Wouldn't it be better to just not respond at all if one
chooses not to offer help? I guess there are some that just get some
intrinsic reward by just stirring conflict.
Thanks again to all that did offer support
KEvin
"Rational One" <norel...@nogod.com> wrote in message
news:EJp58.4788$LH1.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
docd...@panix.com
SkippyPB <swie...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
[snippicino]
>I've seen
>Doc contribute positive responses to legitimate requests for help more
>than I've ever seen you contribute anything useful.
zzzZZZZZzzzzz... zzzaaaAAAWWWWwwwww... zzznnnoooOOORRRKKKHHhhhhh... Arr,
me hearties, we sail agin ol' Fithwemble tamarra, let's be breakin' out
th' ration a' Ol' Jakarta Rum fer th' next day *now*! There's a good lad,
make sure ye pour wi' a heavy hand... O'Reilly! Why ain'cha be a-passin'
some wind thru that pennywhistle... Rinaldo, see if that bow kin be
a-gittin' any more yowls outta that fiddle's catgut... lean inta yer
squeezebox, Shapiro! We may be goin' down, lads... but we're a-goin' down
*singin'*! All t'gither, now... OOoooooohhhhhhh....
Th' Captain is sleepin',
Th' Mate is be-low,
Har! Har! Blow th' ship up!
... zzzzZOOOPPhhh... huh? whuh? Oh, I'm sorry, I was... thinking about
something else, yes, that's it... did somebody call me?
DD
Howard Brazee
On 30-Jan-2002, "Kevin" <kmill...@charter.net> wrote:
> Wow! I certainly did not intend on getting a tread of this sort going. I
> admit, I should have been more detailed with my question. Also, I
> certainly
> understand if one chooses to not offer help to another. What I don't
> understand is what useful purpose it serves to respond with rude and
> negative remarks. Wouldn't it be better to just not respond at all if one
> chooses not to offer help? I guess there are some that just get some
> intrinsic reward by just stirring conflict.
Didn't he say "please"? Ignoring a question isn't doing you any good - but
letting you know why you're not getting replies is useful. You are thus
able to change your tactics and get positive results.
Frederico Fonseca
wrote:
>Wow! I certainly did not intend on getting a tread of this sort going. I
>admit, I should have been more detailed with my question. Also, I certainly
>understand if one chooses to not offer help to another. What I don't
>understand is what useful purpose it serves to respond with rude and
>negative remarks. Wouldn't it be better to just not respond at all if one
>chooses not to offer help? I guess there are some that just get some
>intrinsic reward by just stirring conflict.
>
Well.. I wasn't going to but..
When posting a question like this, you will normally get at least once
reply (from DD).
If DD does not give his most clarifying reply (which some of us think
is appropriate), then it is possible that no reply is given at all.
This leads to some complains from whoever is posting the question that
they are ignored, that no one helps them, that they are being censored
and so on.
I think that the last is far worst than DD's.
The only thing I would eventually add to DD's reply is a line such as
"See COBOL faq at xxxyyy for further info" just to avoid some of the
mindless comments this thread had but it is obviously up to DD to
decide what his "Homework" reply is.
FF
docd...@panix.com
Frederico Fonseca <frederic...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
[snippage]
>The only thing I would eventually add to DD's reply is a line such as
>"See COBOL faq at xxxyyy for further info" just to avoid some of the
>mindless comments this thread had but it is obviously up to DD to
>decide what his "Homework" reply is.
Hmmmmm... many would say that finding the FAQ, reading it and monitoring
the newsgroup to get its 'mood' is also... one's own homework.
DD
Frederico Fonseca
Agreed, but..
That would imply that whoever is posting in any group knows that there
is a such a thing as a newsgroup FAQ. I didn't the first time I used a
newsgroup back in 1997.
docd...@panix.com
Frederico Fonseca <frederic...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>On 30 Jan 2002 15:40:59 -0500, docd...@panix.com wrote:
>
>>In article <udkg5u8ipe1b5ud8t...@4ax.com>,
>>Frederico Fonseca <frederic...@eudoramail.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snippage]
>>
>>>The only thing I would eventually add to DD's reply is a line such as
>>>"See COBOL faq at xxxyyy for further info" just to avoid some of the
>>>mindless comments this thread had but it is obviously up to DD to
>>>decide what his "Homework" reply is.
>>
>>Hmmmmm... many would say that finding the FAQ, reading it and monitoring
>>the newsgroup to get its 'mood' is also... one's own homework.
>Agreed, but..
>That would imply that whoever is posting in any group knows that there
>is a such a thing as a newsgroup FAQ.
It would require learning enough about the UseNet to find out that most
newsgroups have FAQs before one starts posting, sure... and many would say
that finding out the basics of something before one attempts to use it is
also... doing one's own homework.
>I didn't the first time I used a
>newsgroup back in 1997.
How brave of you to admit this! You seem to have survived rather nicely,
though.
DD
Frederico Fonseca
>
>How brave of you to admit this! You seem to have survived rather nicely,
>though.
The good ones do... the others are left behind or loose interest.
Glad to see that most of the good ones that were here then are still
around.
FF
Howard Brazee
On 30-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> >The only thing I would eventually add to DD's reply is a line such as
> >"See COBOL faq at xxxyyy for further info" just to avoid some of the
> >mindless comments this thread had but it is obviously up to DD to
> >decide what his "Homework" reply is.
>
> Hmmmmm... many would say that finding the FAQ, reading it and monitoring
> the newsgroup to get its 'mood' is also... one's own homework.
Someone starting to learn CoBOL might have no idea how to find the FAQ, and
it takes time to monitor a newsgroup for its mood. I agree with Fredrico
100%. Such a link would enable a newbie to learn what was expected, and
doesn't hurt the industry.
I really don't know how to find FAQs to newsgroups. I have directions saved
off somewhere, but the only FAQ I care about have web pages linked to my
browser.
William M. Klein
comp.answers
There are many other "xyz.answers" newsgroups that also contain FAQs for a
variety of newsgroups.
--
Bill Klein
wmklein <at> ix.netcom.com
"Howard Brazee" <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote in message
news:a39pb6$2pl$1...@peabody.colorado.edu...
>
<snip>
Peter E. C. Dashwood
1. Doc has a right to word his message however he thinks fit (just like the
rest of us...). This is an unmoderated NG.
2. I agree with Frederico and Howard that a pointer to the FAQ, appended to
Doc's standard response, would make it much more useful. (This in no way
implies that it is not useful in its current form).
The problem is that if you don't change it, Doc, then the rest of us will
need to post a "modifier" pointing to the FAQ. It would be much more
convenient if your message included it.
Think on't.
J. Gavan
"Peter E. C. Dashwood" wrote:
> Two things:
>
> 1. Doc has a right to word his message however he thinks fit (just like the
> rest of us...). This is an unmoderated NG.
>
> 2. I agree with Frederico and Howard that a pointer to the FAQ, appended to
> Doc's standard response, would make it much more useful. (This in no way
> implies that it is not useful in its current form).
>
> The problem is that if you don't change it, Doc, then the rest of us will
> need to post a "modifier" pointing to the FAQ. It would be much more
> convenient if your message included it.
>
> Think on't.
>
Doc,
Seconded or perhaps that should be quadrupled. So you *don't* have to do your
own homework :-
"Please do your own homework. Go to www.cobolreport.com and look at Bill
Klein's COBOL FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), regarding homework".
Jimmy
Richard Plinston
>
> It would require learning enough about the UseNet to find out that most
> newsgroups have FAQs
The sci.skeptic one is FQA - Frequently Questioned Answers ;-)
docd...@panix.com
>
>1. Doc has a right to word his message however he thinks fit (just like the
>rest of us...). This is an unmoderated NG.
>
>2. I agree with Frederico and Howard that a pointer to the FAQ, appended to
>Doc's standard response, would make it much more useful. (This in no way
>implies that it is not useful in its current form).
>
>The problem is that if you don't change it, Doc, then the rest of us will
>need to post a "modifier" pointing to the FAQ. It would be much more
>convenient if your message included it.
>
>Think on't.
I think that folks should respond as they see fit to perceived needs... I
know that *I* try to.
DD
docd...@panix.com
Howard Brazee <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote:
>
>On 30-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
>
>> >The only thing I would eventually add to DD's reply is a line such as
>> >"See COBOL faq at xxxyyy for further info" just to avoid some of the
>> >mindless comments this thread had but it is obviously up to DD to
>> >decide what his "Homework" reply is.
>>
>> Hmmmmm... many would say that finding the FAQ, reading it and monitoring
>> the newsgroup to get its 'mood' is also... one's own homework.
>
>
>Someone starting to learn CoBOL might have no idea how to find the FAQ, and
>it takes time to monitor a newsgroup for its mood. I agree with Fredrico
>100%.
I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits until
the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is not a
someone who arouses in me much pity.
DD
Peter E. C. Dashwood
<docd...@panix.com> wrote in message news:a3a9b2$1b8$1...@panix1.panix.com...
>
> I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
> part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits until
> the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is not a
> someone who arouses in me much pity.
>
have to eat them.'
Suppose...just suppose... that you got it wrong. Suppose that SOMEONE you
THOUGHT was looking for Homework assistance (without having actually done
any), was in fact someone really new to newsgroups in general, and this one
in particular, whose only real "sin" was that they requested assistance in a
manner which aroused your suspicions.
Couldn't happen? OK, then I agree that the short shrift meted out to
recalcitrants who come here looking for a free ride is justifiable.
(Although there is still an argument that says no real good purpose is
served by it...)
But, IF there was a case where you got it wrong, then adding a pointer to
the FAQ would at least be of some assistance.
(It would point a genuine knowledge seeker in the right direction and at
least inform him as to what the general rules are...)
And even in the case of the REAL bad guys it wouldn't do them any harm to go
off to the COBOL FAQ and gain some knowledge, would it?
I completely share your distaste for freeloaders, but I honestly believe
that pointing people at the FAQ is a "no lose" situation. If you disagree,
I'd be interested to hear your arguments.
If your argument is simply "I don't want to change the message I use and I
don't need to justify my reasons." That is OK too. (As expressed here many
times, I respect your right (and everybody else's in this forum) to express
yourself however you see fit...)
docd...@panix.com
>>
>> I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
>> part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits until
>> the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is not a
>> someone who arouses in me much pity.
>>
>I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'Keep your words soft and sweet, for you may
>have to eat them.'
Notice the use of 'please'.
>
>Suppose...just suppose... that you got it wrong.
This has happened before... nothing new there.
>Suppose that SOMEONE you
>THOUGHT was looking for Homework assistance (without having actually done
>any), was in fact someone really new to newsgroups in general, and this one
>in particular, whose only real "sin" was that they requested assistance in a
>manner which aroused your suspicions.
>
>Couldn't happen?
The likelihood of it happening diminishes with one's doing things like
reading FAQs and watching the traffic for a while before posting... you
know, stuff that has already been called 'homework'.
>OK, then I agree that the short shrift meted out to
>recalcitrants who come here looking for a free ride is justifiable.
Trying to use a tool (UseNet) without learning about it in advance and
expecting All To Work Out Well seems to be... looking for a *very*
inexpensive ride, to say the least.
>(Although there is still an argument that says no real good purpose is
>served by it...)
There are arguments which say that, if asked, one should do someone else's
homework for them, too... I am not moved by them.
>
>But, IF there was a case where you got it wrong, then adding a pointer to
>the FAQ would at least be of some assistance.
>(It would point a genuine knowledge seeker in the right direction and at
>least inform him as to what the general rules are...)
This seems a matter of definition... a 'genuine knowledge seeker' can be
said to be one who learns about the tool before using it.
>
>And even in the case of the REAL bad guys it wouldn't do them any harm to go
>off to the COBOL FAQ and gain some knowledge, would it?
I've never encountered a 'REAL bad guy' in comp.lang.cobol. Should I
start reading some of the linux groups?
>
>I completely share your distaste for freeloaders, but I honestly believe
>that pointing people at the FAQ is a "no lose" situation. If you disagree,
>I'd be interested to hear your arguments.
Stated above... in essence, learning the tool is part of one's homework.
DD
Howard Brazee
On 30-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
> part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits until
> the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is not a
> someone who arouses in me much pity.
My hope is that the person didn't "wait" until the last minute. That he
worked like a dog trying to solve his problem on his own, is running out of
time, and then someone mentioned this newsgroup. He's not familiar with
FAQs, went to this newsgroup and asked a question without showing his work.
Admittedly I doubt this happens very much. But for that rare case,
facilitating his process is worth while.
docd...@panix.com
Howard Brazee <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote:
>
>On 30-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
>
>> I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
>> part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits until
>> the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is not a
>> someone who arouses in me much pity.
>
>My hope is that the person didn't "wait" until the last minute. That he
>worked like a dog trying to solve his problem on his own, is running out of
>time, and then someone mentioned this newsgroup. He's not familiar with
>FAQs, went to this newsgroup and asked a question without showing his work.
Hmmmmm... so (in language appropriate to the group):
IF DIDNT-WAIT-UNTIL-LASTMIN
IF WORKED-LIKE-DOG
IF RUNNING-OUT-OF-TIME
IF SOMEONE-MENTIONED-NEWSGROUP
IF NOT-FAMILIAR-WITH-FAQS
IF ASKED-QUESTION
IF NO-WORK-SHOWN
... then data are to be displayed at all times? For a condition
predicated by seven levels of condition this does not seem very
desireable.
>
>Admittedly I doubt this happens very much.
I do not recall seeing any evidence that it happens at all.
>But for that rare case,
>facilitating his process is worth while.
'Worth while' is not a label I would normally apply to a situation which
requires universally displaying data in the event that a seventh-level
conditional for which no evidence of existence has yet been given
occurs... but that's just me, I guess.
DD
Donald Tees
> In article <a3bmkq$4q1$1...@peabody.colorado.edu>,
> Howard Brazee <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote:
> >
> >On 30-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> >
> >> I am reminded of the Old Saw: 'A lack of planning and foresight on your
> >> part does not constitute an emergency on my part'; someone who waits
until
> >> the last minute to ask someone else to do their homework for them is
not a
> >> someone who arouses in me much pity.
> >
> >My hope is that the person didn't "wait" until the last minute. That he
> >worked like a dog trying to solve his problem on his own, is running out
of
> >time, and then someone mentioned this newsgroup. He's not familiar with
> >FAQs, went to this newsgroup and asked a question without showing his
work.
>
> Hmmmmm... so (in language appropriate to the group):
>
> IF DIDNT-WAIT-UNTIL-LASTMIN
> IF WORKED-LIKE-DOG
> IF RUNNING-OUT-OF-TIME
> IF SOMEONE-MENTIONED-NEWSGROUP
> IF NOT-FAMILIAR-WITH-FAQS
> IF ASKED-QUESTION
> IF NO-WORK-SHOWN
>
BE-STUBBORN-ANYWAY.
DISPLAY "Do you own homework" WITH NO ADVANCING.
Damn I hate having to finish other people's code.
Donald
Howard Brazee
On 31-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> 'Worth while' is not a label I would normally apply to a situation which
> requires universally displaying data in the event that a seventh-level
> conditional for which no evidence of existence has yet been given
> occurs... but that's just me, I guess.
Fine, that's your choice. But if you have an automated or cut 'n paste
response it is less work to add a reference to the FAQ than to respond to
messages all the time. Heck, you could even add an opinion to the canned
response that varies from the FAQ opinion.
docd...@panix.com
Mr Tees, the message is not as specified (no 'please') and I do not recall
that one can DISPLAY WITH ADVANCING.
DD
docd...@panix.com
Howard Brazee <howard...@cusys.edu> wrote:
>
>On 31-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
>
>> 'Worth while' is not a label I would normally apply to a situation which
>> requires universally displaying data in the event that a seventh-level
>> conditional for which no evidence of existence has yet been given
>> occurs... but that's just me, I guess.
>
>Fine, that's your choice.
Inasmuch as seeing things to be 'worth while' or not is a matter of
choice... but that can get weighty.
>But if you have an automated or cut 'n paste
>response it is less work to add a reference to the FAQ than to respond to
>messages all the time. Heck, you could even add an opinion to the canned
>response that varies from the FAQ opinion.
Nope... each 'Please do your own homework' (and most 'When posting to
compl.and.cobol...') posting is hand-crafted.
DD
Donald Tees
DISPLAY "Do you own homework, please." WITH NO ADVANCING.
> >
> >Damn I hate having to finish other people's code.
>
> Mr Tees, the message is not as specified (no 'please') and I do not recall
> that one can DISPLAY WITH ADVANCING.
>
> DD
And the maintenance.
Donald
Howard Brazee
On 31-Jan-2002, docd...@panix.com wrote:
> Nope... each 'Please do your own homework' (and most 'When posting to
> compl.and.cobol...') posting is hand-crafted.
That does make it harder - having to remember where the FAQ is and spell it
correctly and all. Without a macro or cut and paste, available, then it is
a matter of just how much work you're willing to do to indicate that the
message was received, but was insufficient. Most of us skip replying
altogether. Then when you go half-way (according to our standards - not
necessarily yours), we wish you went the whole distance - when we were too
lazy to do it the way we prefer.
Richard Plinston
>
>> My hope is that the person didn't "wait" until the last minute. That he
> worked like a dog trying to solve his problem on his own, is running out of
> time, and then someone mentioned this newsgroup. He's not familiar with
> FAQs, went to this newsgroup and asked a question without showing his work.
>
> Admittedly I doubt this happens very much. But for that rare case,
> facilitating his process is worth while.
I am not sure why you are persuing this to its death, or well beyond.
If you find it suitable to answer such a question then please do so, if
not then ignore it.
If you are trying to reduce DD's posts then you are failing miserably,
he has posted more volume in this thread than in all responses to
homeworkers.
DD puts his opinion out in a message, you can nullify that by providing
a complete answer if you wish, or a reference to the FAQ (findable on
Yahoo as 'Cobol FAQ' and 3 clicks), or just a message "Please do not do
your own homework" to counter DDs.
But for this thread I've completely lost track of what you are trying to
achieve, is it that you want DD to not post, or are you insisting that
he construct a answer ?
I don't think that his standard response is attempt to apply any control
over what you or I might post.
docd...@panix.com
Plural majestatus est and all that... but have, rather delicately, pointed
out what I was trying to avoid, the old 'Well, *I* certainly never take
the time to reply... but when *you* do you should *really* do it the way
*I* want'.
(similar to 'The food here is utter poison... and such small portions,
too!')
I do as I see fit, of course; others are welcome to the same as I take for
myself... but saying that from the start might have denied folks the
chance to see how the Older Tymers in this group disagree with each other.
Really, it has been frighteningly civil and rife with Lofty Concepts - the
UseNet as a tool which one should learn to use, how does one differentiate
between The Truly Shiftless and the Unfortunately Caught Short,
conditionals falling seven levels deep - and refreshingly bereft of
name-calling, obscenities, tawdry vulgarisms and suggestions of anatomical
impossibilities.
Oh, I *cannot* resist... and this was not easy to do, either, as all I had
to work with was a bunch of poopie-heads!
DD
docd...@panix.com
Richard Plinston <rip...@Azonic.co.nz> wrote:
[snippage]
>DD puts his opinion out in a message, you can nullify that by providing
>a complete answer if you wish, or a reference to the FAQ (findable on
>Yahoo as 'Cobol FAQ' and 3 clicks), or just a message "Please do not do
>your own homework" to counter DDs.
Point of information, Mr Plinston: it is not my intention to post an
opinion (other than, of course, the fact of *any* posting can be said to
be evidence of 'It is my opinion that this posting should be made'); I
intend only the creation of a paradigmatic, perfunctory, politely-posted,
practical pentalogism.
(That alliteration might be a bit hard to swallow... but if one washes it
down with sizeable swigs of aceto balsamico one might soon be...
... full of p's and vinegar.)
DD