My first post, CAVO or Not CAVO?
George Snodgrass
I am thinking about purchasing VO.
I am an experienced Clipper programmer who has been playing around with
FoxPro and Delphi.
I have just read the thread "next ca-vo-my final post" started by Paulo
Ganns. It is good to know the negative side of things. Short of the personal
attracts the thread helps me decide where to invest my time and money.
I am now working with the trial version of VO and like what I see. But most
books on VO are out of print and it has been difficult to find any one in
the United States who is talking about VO or heard of it. Most all Clipper
programmers have gone to Delphi.
Please Somebody talk me into CA-Visual Objects. I hope Paulo Ganns will join
in and tell me his story about the product and leave me to judge people for
myself.
Thank you
George
Tracy Thomas
only been in Clipper programming about 2-3 years - a newborn by most
standards.
I now use VO25b1 and LOVE it. I'm far from the most skilled VO programming -
I probably don't employ the best OOP practices, but VO25 works great for me
and I cringe each time I must dive back into the clipper code. VO
development for me is 10 times faster and more powerful than "I" could ever
be in Clipper.
During my time in VO, I've been lucky (unlucky?) enough to see some VB
applications also distributed from other vendors and I've seen exponentially
more troubles with installation, data access, speed, etc with the VB apps
compared to VO.
I don't know if this qualifies as a convincing post - but I'm entirely sold
on VO and will stand behind it completely.
Regards,
Tracy
"George Snodgrass" <gsp...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:92g6fl$i3b$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Couchman
Alot depends on what you're looking to get out of VO. If your work is
developing apps where function and time to develop are more important than the
language the thing is written in, then VO is a worthy tool. I think it offers a
good balance between power and ease of use.
If you're looking to improve your marketability as a Window's developer to
corporate America, then VO comes up a bit short. As you mentioned, it isn't a
well marketed product, and your VO skills won't be of much interest to the more
mainstream IS shops.
The best bet for learning VO is the web. Besides this newsgroup, a good place
to start is www.knowvo.com. It offers a knowledgebase, newsgroup archive, links
to other VO sites, etc.
hth's
Richard
Rai...@borchmann.de
have a look at www.knowvo.com, there you will find unter item "books"
that what you want.
HTH and best wishes for 2001
Rainer
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Gary Stark
Welcome to the group.
There are a number of physical user groups around the place; depending upon where you're located, you may actually be able to find some warm bodies to help you as well.
I for one will not try to talk you into buying VO. All I can do is tell you that I use it on a daily basis, and have done so for a number of years. The product remains quite stable, and provides features that enable me to code in a manner that, for instance, I cannot as easily do using VB. I have very litle experience with Delphi - I personally dislike Pascal as a language - and so I cannot and do not comment of Delphi's strengths or weaknesses.
As and when one becomes comfortable with the OOP paradigm, the power of the language, and the ease with which one can do things, assists more and more. The product is not perfect, but then again, neither is any other product. VO seems to have a good mix for me.
The real issue though relates to whatever your own needs
and goals are. Some people prefer to work using Delphi, VB, C++, or whatever,
and that is a personal issue that we each, as individuals, only can make.
Cheerz, and again, welcome.
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Bruce Boddington
I was a Clipper developer for many years, and moved over to VO 3 years
ago. I make my living now with VO, and find it a powerful and useful
language. I have migrated a large Clipper app over to VO and it is
running more robustly than the old Clipper edition.
The worst part is the first month or so, when it feels as if you are in
treacle. This is mainly getting your head around event-driven systems,
and the massive load of new functions, and finding out how they are
triggered. The VO help system is basically appalling, but thankfully I
don't look at it any more!
However, I would suggest you get hold of Sandy Hood's book, I think it
is available ex KnowVo. There is a wealth of material on KnowVo, and
the Belgium training site. This NG is very free with its support, the
rest is down to you!!! Don't hesitate to ask here, there is somebody
here to help you at any level of question.
Cheers
Bruce
Paulo Ganns
To understand a little of the my history and because of my positions:
My company uses the VO since V1.0 (the first and big error of the CA
> "The VO will be a tool of fast migration of the Clipper for the
Windows/OS2/UNIX". She forgot to show to the market that the VO
demanded a new level of knowledge (OOP, API, GUI, etc))
With the union of a group of VO users of great influence, the CA
accepted a commitment that it caused in the launching of VO 2.0 .(A
great relief for my company.)
Currently version 2.5 fulfilled the cited commitment assumed for the
CA. (In my point of view still it lacks a together stronger position to
the market so that the same it sees in the VO a possibility to gain
money).
But this everything is passed.
The current situation, in Brazil, is that of so unknown, the VO compels
me to have greaters costs in the trainees and many of them simply give
up to work in my company for finding that they will be limited. They
fear in being specialists in a little used tool in the market.
Although it keeps a site of bracket to VO users in Brazil, without
bracket of the CA, I see that the Brazilian market already defined the
Delphi and VB as you lead.
To change a little the route of this affirmation, in my dreams, would
like that the CA invested in the Brazilian market therefore still
exists many, as you, that still use the Clipper and that now they are
looking its tool of migration for the Windows.
"But most books on VO are out of print and it has been difficult to
find any one in the United States who is talking about VO or heard of
it."
Its phrase is the effect of the market lack that many times I cite and
I am criticized.
To help in its decision, I agree with post of Couchman.
A great advantage in being a VO user is the quality of all the
participants of this group. (Its doubt never will be forever)
Therefore, many times, we take gotten passionate positions.
VO is an excellent tool.
The CA-Brazil does not believe that the VO is an excellent tool.
Good luck in its decision an excuses for my English.
--
Paulo Ganns
site : http://www.net-estance.com.br/vo
Don Bjortomt
Where are you located? I am in Northern Indiana.
When I switched to VO back in VO1.0 beta I struggled trying to convert an
existing Clipper App. I tried to do keep it procedural. Being new to
newsgroups I hesitated to ask questions, but lurked allot. My biggest
problem was the change from procedural DOS programming to Event driven
programming. I had no idea what was going on with events.
Once I gave up on trying to convert the Clipper App as it was and started
from scratch things started to fall in place. Look at the sample code
provided, including South Seas Adventure to get a feel of how thing are
done. I am very happy I stuck out the learning process. VO is very
powerful. Don't plan to use the Report Writer that comes with VO. Consider
an investment in ReportPro, a third party report writer written in VO, that
can eliminate the ODBC problem that comes with the VO report writer.
Good Luck;
--
Don Bjortomt
Remove nomail from my e-mail address
"George Snodgrass" <gsp...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:92g6fl$i3b$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Gary Stark
Paulo Ganns wrote:
George,To understand a little of the my history and because of my positions:
My company uses the VO since V1.0 (the first and big error of the CA
> "The VO will be a tool of fast migration of the Clipper for the
Windows/OS2/UNIX". She forgot to show to the market that the VO
demanded a new level of knowledge (OOP, API, GUI, etc))
With all due respect, CA saw, and in fact did quite a great deal
of teaching, that this was exactly what was needed to migrate
to CAVO from Clipper.
If you would take a few minutes to go back to the 1994 Technicon, the first one in New Orleans, you will see a great many sessions that showed exactly that this was the case.
In particular, the sessions that I presented (I cannot speak on behalf of the other presenters) even demonstrated the use of the Windows API - look on your CAVO 1.0 samples, and find the Music Tutor application for just one such example. My TC 94 sessions also included sound playing and mouse detecting applications, all using the Windows API.
One thing that I (personally) didn't do, was to stay away from the API!
Let me now quote a few things for you.
First of all, from my "Living Without The Pre-Processor" session, first presented at TC 1994. In my conclusion, this is a part of what I said:
===================================
CA-Visual Objects represents a whole new way of working.
We are now working in Windows, where previously we were working with CA-Clipper in MS-DOS. We are now graphically oriented; previously we were text based. We now have access to full object orientation and a native-code compiler, but we still retain access to all of the power and flexibility that we had in CA-Clipper, and then some.
With this massive shift in the way that we work we are going to have
to adapt to the new environment, or perish professionally.
===================================
Remember that this was at TC94, sponsored by CA, and the whole conference was devoted entirely to developers using Clipper and VO.
Now, from the introduction section of my "Putting The Pieces Together" session, comes the following quote:
===================================
Many of us have been anxiously awaiting its arrival for three or more years, and to finally get our hands on it after all this time is truly like finding the holy grail. Maybe.
The first thing that is obvious with CA-Visual Objects is that it's a Windows based product. For a great many of us this means that we're about to step into a whole new world of development.
For those of us familiar with traditional DOS based programming techniques there are many new methods to learn and concepts to understand. For those of familiar with CA-Clipper we will also find that the richness of the CA-Visual Objects language will also increase the challenge in developing our applications. There are so many new tools, so many new features the we need to assimilate and become familiar with that the task seems daunting.
===================================
This paper continues ...
===================================
If what you need to build is a fully object oriented application, using all of the bells and whistles that Windows can provide then you'll need to start looking at things like the CommonView and GUI classes, and the Windows API. Perhaps, if you're into communications you might be looking at some third party DLLs or the Microsoft Telephony API as well.
If you need to quickly prototype something for a user, then using the Menu and Window editors will be of great assistance to you. Selecting the GUI classes when you're creating a brand new application will cause CA-Visual Objects to automatically build for you a default application. You can then take this default application and using the Menu and Window editors begin to customize this application, add data elements, buttons, scroll bars or whatever, and build your prototype application in a very short time.
Alternatively, you can choose to use virtually any combination of these pieces in virtually any way that you wish to build your application in the way that you feel is most appropriate.
===================================
Again, I should reiterate that these papers were presented in July of 1994. This was a full six months prior to the GA release of CAVO 1.0. IIRC, July 1994 was also when the pre-release was initially made available. As a matter of interest, many other presenters also gave topics on the GUI, OOP, and the API.
The fact that you may not have been there, or perhaps that you might not have aware of this training or its focus, does not, cannot, and will not alter the facts.
I'm afraid that your statements that CA did not make this knowlege available
are simply not borne out in fact. CA brought a number of people together
prior to TC94 specifically to ensure that those who were going to be speaking
at the conference were well versed in all of these matters.
Now, beyond CA's involvement, Ginny's, Rick's, and my own book all focused on many different areas related to the use of VO. In Ginny's book there were sections relating to the API and the help system. IIRC, chapter 12 of my book focuses almost entirely on the API. Much of the rest of the book deals with the GUI interface and OOP techniques.
Again, your own personal experiences - or perhaps lack of them - still cannot alter the facts of history. This is stuff that has been around for many years, and your failure to know of this - or perhaps your failure to acknowledge its existence - only speaks towards your own prejudices or ignorance, more than anything else.
It has often been said that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous
thing. In this instance, I think that it would be better if those with
just that "little" bit of knowledge would not try to espouse that as fact,
when it can clearly be demonstrated that they don't have the knowledge
they believe they do.
Paulo Ganns
...and with the aid of your book (and Carl Ganz, Bill Lazar) we had the
real idea of that the VO was capable. Unhappyly, in the presentation of
the VO in Brazil, in the Fenasoft'94, folder of the VO it left clearly
that the migration of the Clipper would be an easy task and that we
could also use the terminal class for CUI. It can have been a local
error of the CA-Brazil but the fact of your book only have been
published in Brazil in end of 1995, demonstrates the persistence lack,
at the time, of the CA-Brazil in convincing local publishing companies
of that the VO was a product with capital rollback.
It observes that in my country more edition of its book does not exist.
If you to obtain that the CA translates and stimulates some publishing
company in editing its, or another one any book on the VO, would make a
great favor for VO community of Brazil.
You with certainty it would sell some book sets of ten.(They would sell
little not for its quality but due to market.)
With certainty you and any publishing company they would find very
little.
I would like that you understood that in Brazil they exist less of one
set of ten of companies who use the VO as development tool and that
this number could very be bigger if had a bigger effort of the CA.
If this effort compensates or not, only CA can decide.
----------------------------------------
Gary Stark
The English (original) version of the book was actually published in January 1995. The translation of the book into Portuguese was done after the book was published, and had nothing whatsoever to do with CA; that was all the work of SAMS. My recollection is that this was completed around the northern summer of 1995.
Any publicity that the book got was all to with the publisher, and had not a thing to do with CA. CA had less than no input at all into when the book might have appeared in bookstores in Brazil. For you to suggest that CA Brazil (or anywhere else) had anything to do with when the book was made available is, quite simply, not accurate, and not correct.
What CA did in Brazil .... is what CA did in Brazil; I have no knowledge of that, and am not able to comment upon it. I only spoke of my experience in the US at that time, but omitted that I was also involved in CA Technicons in Birmingham England in 1994, and Cologne Germany in 1995. Each of these mirrored my experiences in New Orleans in 1994.
What you're suggesting happened in Brazil is certainly plausible, but it runs counter to my own personal experiences, which, across a broader scope, seem to be consitently different, and more positive, than your own impressions.
That all of the VO 1.0 books are now out of print does not surprise
me one bit. The books are old, and obsolete. From a business perspective,
I would easily accept that there is no economic value for any of the 1.0
book publishers to re-release those books in any language; why reissue
an obsolete book for a product that is no longer manufactured, and probably
not very widely in use? That makes no sense at all.
What you say of the VO market - or the general absence of one - in Brazil, though, is reflected elsewhere throughout the world. Here in Oz, it almost seems that one can count the number of VO users on the fingers of just one hand. <g>
Seriously, throughout the world, VO market is indeed small.
But in all honesty, so what?
I know what I can do, and it really matters not - to my end user clients - what my choice of tool is. In fact, it's none of their damn business! As long as I can meet their needs with the products I produce for them, my choice of tools is largely unimportant to them.
So, as long as I can use the tool; as long as I can remain productive with the tools that I choose to use, what the rest of the world choses to do in this regard - for their needs - doesn't matter to me, and - to me - remains unimportant. As it stands today, CA have provided me with a very usable, and viable tool. That their marketing of this product (IMHO) is so poor so as to be a complete and utter farce is not relevant.
I know how to use it, and little else matters. The fact that the little schoolkid down the road thinks he's a crash-hot VB programmer because he can paint a screen doesn't bother me at all, because when it comes to the crunch, that guy, and probably around 90% of other VB programmers, haven't the foggiest idea about attaching raw data to treeview or listview items, for instance.
And you know what ? That's what makes the difference. I don't just paint windows; I can cut code. In any number of different development languages.
So, all of this bullshit about CA's lack of marketing of VO is just that. It's bullshit. It's irrelevant.
If you're any good at what you do, it simply does not matter!
Oh yes, although I don't profess to be an expert in VB, I actually have
turned down VB job offers. So I could easily choose to be working in VB,
and that may well still happen, if the right set of circumstances happens
by.
--
JPV
Happy New Year 2001
I've exeperienced VO since the beta of VO 1.0 (called Aspen) in 1994 after
programming 9 years in Clipper. Honestly, the beginning were terrible. But
now it's history. We are not here to lit camp fires. Very few beleive in the
forthcoming of a version 2.0. Version 2.0 and more recently 2.5 have open
perspectives. Now VO is robust and stable. Despite the advice of very few
people, VO is a tool for professional developpers. First steps in CAVO seems
more complicated than with VB or Delphi, but once those steps are done, you
can do more interesting things with a greater ease than with other products.
Of course, VB or Delphi fans will tell you "We can do it too" or "What VO
can do, that we cannot ?" The answer is clear: "Nothing" but VO needs a
shorter time to reach the same point. I talk here about wide applications,
not just a few lines of code. And that's the reason of VO's commercial
success and why more and more people are taking a closer look at it.
Documentation about VO exist, Sandy's book can still be found, SDT magazine,
SDGN magazine... Many web sites are dedicated to VO, you can get support
from this NG or from people like John Parker or Marijo Dimmick at CA. Don't
believe those who said "CA doesn't care", it's not true. More and more
people at CA take care of VO. Of course, it's never enough. Of course, we
want more. We always ask for more. But now, take a closer look at the thread
you have read. In fact, you've just read the last episode of a very long
thread started 12/16/00 and called "CAVO-What's next ?" In the thread "my
final post", I was amazed that the last argument of anti-VO guys like Paulo
Ganns was only insults and threats toward VO defendants. But this was for
the small story. Believe me or not, if you decide to work with VO, you will
never regret it.
Sincerely,
JPV
Eric Hourant
Just to add my 2 cents.
I have used Clipper from the first version (86 ?) until the 5.2e version. I
never put my hands on the 5.3 because we are now on VO.
When I receive the first VO 1.0, I have spent a few months on it just to
understand the concepts of OOPS and event driven.
I have used VO 1.0 just for learning purposes. I never installed a 1.0
application on a customer's computer.
This version was a disaster at a user point of view but a very good product
at a practice level.
The 1st VO application you will write will probably be hard because you have
to learn all the "windows" concepts.
Now, we have upgraded nearly all of our Clipper apps to VO and the customers
seem to be happy with the results (And happy customers make happy
developpers).
Delphi is a good product but let me share two experiences with it. My
company is using an accounting package written in Delphi. The developpement
of this package was very fast (a few months). But the debugging phase was
rather slow. Two years after we are still finding some (minor) problems
between the different OS. I know the guys who wrote this package, they are
good programmers and I do not think that these problems come from their own.
There is a large company in Belgium who has developped a large Delphi
application for exchanging files between companies and banks. They have a
few thousand users in Belgium. The first 2-3 years of this product were a
desaster, everybody was complaining (instability, system hangs, ...). Now
their product is stable (but the operating systems are probably more stable
than before). Remark : I DO NOT want to launch a new debate VO vs Delphi.
Once again, Delphi is now a good product as VO is (some of the libraries we
are using are also written in Delphi).
With VO, we are now able to install a product on a customer's computer only
a few weeks after the analysis phase.
The development is very fast and the result is very stable.
For our own applications, we impose NT or W2K to our customers. These OS are
much more stable than W9x.
I would advise you NOT to use the VO report writer. The best 3rd P you can
buy is ReportPro (www.dproinc.com)
and the bBrowser ( www.befo.com [not sure about that one] ) as a browser
replacement.
I'm sure that everyone in this newsgroup will help you in the future.
You may find some samples of our VO apps on our web site.
HTH
Eric
--
visit us at www.echo-soft.com
George Snodgrass <gsp...@starpower.net> a écrit dans le message :
92g6fl$i3b$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Marcos Nogueira
"Re: My first post, CAVO or Not CAVO?"
CAVO. It's not [too] expensive, and time spent on learning it will
never be lost (better if you can make money out of it, but this is
another story...).
Visit:
http://www.knowvo.com (kind of "VO website")
http://www.ca.com/offices/belgium/common/votc/votc.html (official VO
Training Center)
Buy or borrow "Using Visual Objects" by Ginny Caughey and others (ISBN
85-7001-989-0). Even outdated (it's for VO 1.0), it's an excellent book
for understanding how VO works and how to develop in VO.
Greetings and a Very Happy New Year.
--
Marcos Nogueira
S. Paulo - Brazil
VN/g...@flinet.com
Good to see you made it out to the newsgroup !
I hope that the other URL's that I provided you
will be as helpful as the newsgroup.
Thanks to all of you that responded to George's
first post. It's really good to see how the responses
have matured from the early days of Love/Hate
relationship that many people had with Visual Objects
It would be redundant for me to comment on VO as
clearly, I've put my money where my mouth is. Here is
to another year of support for Visual Objects.
"George Snodgrass" <gsp...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:92g6fl$i3b$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Warren McIntyre
As an experienced Clipper programmer you may also want to consider
transition and migration issues. Those issues are what drove me to adopt
VO1.0 in late 1995 and to release my first VO app early in 1996. That app is
stable and still used in a number of my clients' operations.
In the beginning I had to convince my clients that the Windows environment
was a viable alternative to DOS (particularly the data entry people who had
trouble attaining productive data input speeds in Windows). Most clients
still had Win3.1 workstations which lacked the resources demanded by the
newer Win95. Thus 16 bit VO1.0 was an important transitional solution. I
also had to provide for migration from their legacy Clipper apps while
maintaining parallel access to the same data.
Now that the 16 bit world has all but disappeared, VO2.5 is the transitional
tool for the remaining legacy Clipper apps which are slowly <g> being
converted to Windows. In a typical conversion it usually is necessary to
modify the structure of the old Clipper-based data files, either to adopt
more efficient index keys or to change or add fields. Thus, rather than
support parallel access to the same data, the setup routine for the new
Windows app builds a new database by copying from the old data files. This
allows the client to test the new app by taking "snapshots" of the old data
and using double entry (old and new) for comparison. A final setup creates a
fresh snapshot and the client can abandon the old and take off with the new.
Now I know that other development tools can handle the transitional task
with legacy DBF files. For the Clipper programmer, however, VO makes the
transition easy. As for the Clipper code itself, for the most part only the
business logic can be ported directly. I simply copy and paste from my
Clipper PRG files and adapt the code from there. As for GUI, OOP, Event
Driven programming, etc. - once you get your feet wet you realize how
limiting our procedural oriented Clipper language was (as an aside I did
convert some of my earlier Clipper apps to StarClass object-oriented and
DOS-GUI screens which helped change my thinking toward Windows orientation)
This all predated Clipper 5.3 which I never did adopt (anyone for a mint
condition Clipper 5.3?).
I would encourage you to plunge ahead with at least one new app and possibly
a conversion of a legacy Clipper app. The experience and lessons learned
will stand you in good stead regardless of the development tool(s) you
choose in the future.
As for the economic viability of a Visual Objects programmer, vis a vis more
mainstream varieties such as Delphi, VB, Visual FoxPro, etc. just keep in
mind that, in the broad IT world, Clipper programmers also were never
considered mainstream either (same goes for the DBF file structure). And yet
we continue to survive and prosper.
Success in 2001 with VO
Warren
George Snodgrass <gsp...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:92g6fl$i3b$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Gary Stark
> clearly, I've put my money where my mouth is. Here is
> to another year of support for Visual Objects.
Only one?
I demand a recount. Or a reccount().:)
Happy new year to you and the family.
Including the four-legged members.
Phil McGuinness
The people that developed Clipper was the Nantucket team and the user base
who were driven to develop a great product for a great developers community.
They understood the grassroots of what was wanted and how to get community
spirit and support. My point is CA is a big company as far removed from
this market as it is from the developers using it. That is one problem it
existed then and it exists today.
The second problem was that VO1.0 was a hybrid of Commview and Aspen and
they did not together well and the product was late to market and very
buggy. I got a Black and White box version 1.0 and by the time I got home
V1.0a had arrived and it was not much better. The problem was it had hybrid
stuff to port bits of Clipper code and basically they were better off
dropping this stuff which they did in VO2.0 That was problem two it was
broken from day one in many areas.
In 1994 when it was released In New Orleans I attended most of the sessions
and they were packed. If you were 5 minutes late you could not get in.. The
interest was there. However one thing was very obvious was that these were
Clipper users with a Clipper mind set in a lot of cases looking for VO to
take this code and make it into in those days a 16bit Windows application..
I made the comment then which could not have been closer to the mark that
90% of Clipper developers will not be able to make the jump. I think 95%
dropped out for many reasons.
The are more reasons of course and a lot do not relate to the product.
Most Clipper users were self taught.. Clipper was a problem in its own right
because it was so unforgiving. Just about anybody could through somecode
together and it would compile.. Under VO it was not as simple as that
because Windows is not as simple as that.. It was apparent that most would
need extensive training.. and help. Most did not get any help or training
and fumbled around until they found a product that worked for them.. usually
another one.
The next problem was the books that were produced unfortunately were written
by Clipper people with a Clipper mind set trying to talk like they had a
Windows mindset. I am sure that the words just did not get through. They
did not start a lot of people who read them in the right direction in the
build of a REAL application. I think the Rick Spence book and the Sandy
Hood were the better books having looked at them all.
The last nail in the coffin was the experienced leaders of the Clipper
community threw their hands in the air and walked away. Now remember this
was all based on VO1.0abc
---
Enter VO2,5 which is an excellent product with a limited following and works
like a charm with or without CA marketing. Show this program to quite a few
Windows developers and they are impressed at what it can do. The real help
now comes from Newsgroups like this and attending a VODEVCON at least once a
year and subscribing to the SDT international magazine.
I specialise in specific vertical markets and all my customers care about is
that it is reliable, fast and looks good.
I would recommend VO to any development house who have programmers capable
of using an OBJECT language and wants as much freedom from Microsoft as
possible.
Phil McGuinness
------------------------
"Paulo Ganns" <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92grrp$d0b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Mr Smead
works
> like a charm with or without CA marketing. Show this program to quite a
few
> Windows developers and they are impressed at what it can do. The real help
> now comes from Newsgroups like this and attending a VODEVCON at least once
a
> year and subscribing to the SDT international magazine.
And there is one more thing to add to this - CA have not even bothered to
notify the majority of registered users (in Australia at least) about 2.5 -
I only found out about it by accident around 4 weeks ago!
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> wrote in message
news:xfg36.7$Kb3...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
JPV
It's amazing. In Belgium (we're smaller) CA helped us to set up an event
where all Clipper and former version VO registered users were invited for
free. We only received complains from unregistered users. We've tried to get
from CA-Belgium an advertisement in the main computer papers, but they
refused to pay for it. I don't know how far you've to blame CA or your local
distributor (if any ?) for not warned you in time.
Sincerely,
JPV
Mr Smead
situation.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"JPV" <hesop.jp...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:92k60q$64q$1...@news0.skynet.be...
Graham McKechnie
> And there is one more thing to add to this - CA have not even bothered to
> notify the majority of registered users (in Australia at least) about
2.5 -
> I only found out about it by accident around 4 weeks ago!
I've read some crap up here, but franky that takes the cake. Some accident,
how was Mars or the other planet you were on???
I'm also in Australia like many others here and knew exactly when VO2.5 was
released. You're here now, so why were you not the day it was released?? To
me that appears as though you are not very serious about knowing what is
going on with VO or you are living in a time warp.
You are obviously using the net, so why do you not _every_ day. You are
living in the past if you expect a supplier to notify you by mail.
Has MS at last got around to you and told you about W2K and are you aware of
ME or even W98?
Graham
<sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:bDg36.20402$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Gary Stark
I'm with you on this one. I guess that had one been hiding under some rock or
something, then perhaps one might not have known about this. But I think that
those who have a genuine interest will make it their business to know of these
things, by checking the internet, being active members of a users group, coming
to events, and so on.
David, if you're such an avid VO-phile, why is it that I don't know you
personally? I think it's fair to say that I know most Sydney VO users, but yet
I've not seen you at any conferences, and I've not seen you at any user group
events, have I ?
And with the most recent Sydney users group event having been mentioned here
just last week, but no effort or message forthcoming from you in that regard, I
suspect that Graham's point about how frequently you access the internet for
this sort of information might be very well made.
You will most certainly be welcome at our next users group meeting, on January
16, I think. If you like, I can even add your name to the mailing list.
Graham McKechnie wrote:
--
Mr Smead
You can believe what you like or what Graham says - since buying 2.0 (so
long ago I cannot remember the date) I have not had ONE single communication
from CA about ANY upgrade.
I didn't say I was a VO-phile as you put it - however, circumstances about 3
weeks ago made me look for info on VO - thus this group - and this was the
FIRST place I saw anything about a 2.5. No - I had not been on to CA's
site - I had no reason to - but the fact remains, CA have NOT advised all
registered users of any further upgrades after 2.0.
Graham may like to think they have - maybe it is Graham that should come out
from under the rock.
Show me the advertising CA have done to promote ANY release of VO since
2.5 - it isn't generally available.
Sure a UG is great - if people are told about them in the first place.
Sorry Gary - I don't read every single message - no on e does - they
usually scan for what they are specifically looking for - as I was. Even
the start of this thread I skipped over - it didn't initially strike me as
anything I was interested in. However the comment about CA not promoting
itself (or VO) in Brazil DID strike a chord.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3A4DB5F9...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Bruce Boddington
I can only tell you the vast majority of Australian developers were
waiting like the ladies waiting outside the Grace Bros Boxing day
sales...hands on keyboard waiting to download 2.5 as soon as the doors
opened.
If you did not know this, it only reflects on your capacity to garner
information in this current environment. This NG was a-buzz weeks
before, the CA site had heralded it - WTF were you?
There is no Australian distributor, you can only blame yourself. It may
be a good time to start monitoring this NG seriously, to learn not only
about how to use VO, but also the goss about upgrades and problems.
Nothing about VO farts without it being broadcast in this NG within 4
hours.
If you are serious, we all look forward to seeing you here again.
Cheers
Bruce
Mr Smead
it - but NOT for those, like myself, who put it aside shortly after 2.0 came
out. Yes I am now monitoring the NG's BUT it still doesn't answer why there
was no other information made available about it (the world does NOT revolve
around the internet despite Grahams protestations that we should)
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Bruce Boddington" <bru...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:3A4DBB31...@bigpond.net.au...
Paulo Ganns
Which crap?
We do not know the history of David with the VO and I find that some
responses of this group do not motivate the participation.
To respect the colleague would have to be a constant.
Happy new year,
Jean-Marie Berthiaume
I am what Geoff call a hobbyist not at all a professional programmer. I was as
many Clipper users also a hobbyist (or at least a personal user). In the first
month I struggle with VO 2.5, I weep and I cry and mostly blow the thing to hell
until I understand the inheritance and from it the OOP programming. But since,
everything I done I was able to do it because my 'programming experience' in
Clipper. Yet not a single line of Clipper code was use to make my programs (even
if I was under the false impression it was easy to use the same code in both
language) but I learn with Clipper how a program work.
The rest come from you guys and I'm thankful for it. And what is happening on
this NG (free mutual aid) is what was happening on the Clipper NG. The spirit of
Clipper is among us. Pray the... Woups! <g>
P.S. I just don't understand why suddenly we are receiving hate messages here.
Did VO is beginning to be something <BG>.
Phil McGuinness a écrit :
--
Jean-Marie Berthiaume
Montréal, Québec
Attention. Enlever les # pour me rejoindre
Please erase the # to reply :
(jie...@videotron.ca)
JPV
I believe you. But it seems so terrible that such a large country like yours
has no VO-distributor. I guess you already know web sites like
www.knowvo.com or www.cavo.com If you want some more details about VO you
can always ask in this NG, everyone will be pleased to help you. As I'm not
the marketing manager of CA-Australia, I've no idea of the kind of
advertisement (if any) he has done for VO 2.5
Sincerely,
JPV
JPV
Again, you're right. I was amazed of the number of companies currently using
Clipper with no connections on the Internet, not even an e-mail address.
They still use faxes. Of course, when I try to give them a web site as
reference, they ask me to download all the information from it and to burn a
CD for a later sending by post-office.
All countries are not wired like the US
Sincerely,
JPV
Ed Ratcliffe
I am replying after reading a number of replies to your post. I am in Canada
and no, CA did not inform me about any upgrades, bugs or sweet f... all for
that matter. I do not make my living as a developer, BUT, I am very serious
about the applications that I do produce, and I have an obligation to the
people who use my software and to provide for them the best possible
business solution that is within my capabilties to provide. With the above
thoughts in mind, I troll this and many other ng's (VB, Delphi, C++, etc) to
ensure that I do keep myself informed. To do otherwise and then blast a
product is somewhat shortsighted and thus you only do yourself and
ultimately your client's a disservice.
--
__________________________
Ed Ratcliffe @ Gryphon Systems
Stephane Hebert
> Sorry Gary - I don't read every single message - no on e does -
I do. That makes one. Anybody else ? <G>
--
Stephane Hebert
=========================
stephhebert@yourpants~videotron.ca
Remove yourpants~ to reply
=========================
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:cOi36.20441$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Gary Stark
So, you like to have a bet each way, do you?
On the one hand, you profess to have had no real interest in VO until about three weeks ago, yet you insist on pissing all over someone else because they didn't inform you of something, even though you, in all likelihood - by your own admission, you had no interest - would not have been all that receptive to those efforts ?
Hmmm ...
Mr Smead wrote:
Gary,You can believe what you like or what Graham says - since buying 2.0 (so
long ago I cannot remember the date) I have not had ONE single communication
from CA about ANY upgrade.
So what ? Neither have I. At least from their marketing people.
Nor have I had any such communication from Borland (or Inprise) beseeching me to upgrade my copy of Delphi.
Nor, would you believe it, from Micro$oft, extolling to me the virtues of upgrading my versions of VB or VC.
Yet despite the complete and utter absence of those marketing pleas, I have been kept well aware of what has been made available, and what the current versions of these products are, because that is something that I, as a professional individual working in the data processing industry, needs to do.
That you have failed to do so merely tells me that you are less than professional, and that is fine. I have no need to query your professionalism; I have no knowledge of your background, experience, or whatever, and I am not bothered one iota by this at this level.
That you choose to blame others for your personal absence of professionalism is another thing altogether. That you choose to do this may be telling me something about you personally as well as professionally.
My personal history with using the internet, user groups, Compuserve, and other means of peer to peer help goes back a very long way. Similarly, my personal involvement with conferences also goes back a very long way.
That is all by choice. My choice.
It was your choice to not go looking around for the information that
I consider essential to keep me up to date. I cannot accept blaming others
given circumstances where I make my own choices; you can only do what you
choose to do.
As an aside, whenever I register any product, I make a choice, where one is given, to not recieve marketing and product update information from the company. Again, this is my choice. I really don't need some twerp from marketing filling my life with bullshit when I know I can find pretty well anything I want via the net, when I want it.
As I said. My choice. I'm in control, and I take responsibility for
my life, and my decisions.
I didn't say I was a VO-phile as you put it - however, circumstances about 3
weeks ago made me look for info on VO - thus this group - and this was the
FIRST place I saw anything about a 2.5. No - I had not been on to CA's
Fine. Prior to three weeks ago, you had no interest in upgrading
VO. Why piss on CA, when you agree that you had no interest?
And why come into this newsgroup with such an attitude, when you are
really not speaking from any position of real knowledge ? Again, until
- your words - until three weeks ago, you knew nothing about 2.5. In my
books, that makes you a relative newbie.
Graham may like to think they have - maybe it is Graham that should come out
from under the rock.
Graham was not the one complaining that he had not recieved notice
of any upgrade. I believe that he in fact had already upgraded quite some
time ago. Quite obviously, he was aware of what you were were unaware of.
Who was that who was under the rock?
But the fact that you, until three weeks ago, had no interest does have a bearing here. It confirms that you were under a rock, but perhaps it was also a rock in a different park.
Again, to me that's not a problem that you're in a different park. I
just don't go around throwing stones at my neighbours. They might have
better aim than I do. :)
Show me the advertising CA have done to promote ANY release of VO since
2.5 - it isn't generally available.
And your point is ?
I don't think that anyone here has seen any of this - it doesn't exist, to my knowledge - yet most of us have been well aware of 2.5's existence since July 1999!
Bottom line is CA doesn't seem to market its low profit products.
In some respects, I think I prefer less marketing crap than more, but
that's another issue altogether.
Sure a UG is great - if people are told about them in the first place.
Or if we, as professionals, look for those resources that we feel
may be useful to us in our profession.
Yes, on the one hand, I could wait for things to happen. I could wait for anything that I wanted to, if I so desired.
Or I could be proactive, and go and find things.
Make it my business to find what I need to know.
Ask the audience.
Phone a friend.
Search the web.
Take the plunge, and make my own decisons! Take responsibility for what
I choose to do! What a concept!
Sorry Gary - I don't read every single message - no on e does - they
You know for a fact that noone does? Geoff,
care to chime in here ? I don't have a clue about what others do, and can't
profess to. I can only speak on my own behalf here ...
usually scan for what they are specifically looking for - as I was. Even
the start of this thread I skipped over - it didn't initially strike me as
anything I was interested in. However the comment about CA not promoting
itself (or VO) in Brazil DID strike a chord.
Interesting; you skipped over this thread - not reading it - but
yet you read it.
Intriguing.
David,
In all honesty, I have no problem that you had no real interest in VO until now. That is fair enough, and in and of itself it's a valid statement.
But to blame others because you didn't recieve a mailing from CA is really just a bit much for me. When there are so many people using a product that you were not aware of ... you really need to ask yourself "htf did they know, but I didn't?"
Cheerz, and happy new year.
I'll be on a 50ft ketch on the harbour tonight, with Lindy, and a nice
cold bottle of Veuve Cliquot. How are the rest of you going to farewell
the millenium ?
Gary Stark
Mr Smead wrote:
And I will state again - this is all very well for those CURRENTLY using
it - but NOT for those, like myself, who put it aside shortly after 2.0 came
Who was it that put VO aside shortly after 2.0 came out?
Who made that decision ?
While I remember, have you downloaded the 2.5a and a1 patches from ftp.cai.com?
You won't get a mailout from CA about those either.
out. Yes I am now monitoring the NG's BUT it still doesn't answer why there
was no other information made available about it (the world does NOT revolve
around the internet despite Grahams protestations that we should)
Graham didn't, IIRC, suggest that; he simply pointed to it as a
most useful point of information. before it there was Compuserve, plus
lots of bulletin board based news-group type of mailing lists.
And right through all of that time, there have been users groups and developer conferences. I've been actively involved with UGs and Devcons since the late '80s, and have made a concious effort to keep myself up to date professionally.
Look back at the messages on this NG over the last 6 weeks or so and review those that focussed on .NET technologies if you want to keep involved in - or at least aware of - what might be happening as we enter the next millenium.
Better yet, wait three or four years, and then blame someone else because
you didn't get something in the mail.
--
Gary Stark
> If you did not know this, it only reflects on your capacity to garner
> information in this current environment. This NG was a-buzz weeks
> before, the CA site had heralded it - WTF were you?
How about all the queries about availability of patches etc ? Even Blind Freddy
saw those ones.
> Nothing about VO farts without it being broadcast in this NG within 4
> hours.
This NG is probably a more definitive and reliable source of info than the CA Open
Forums (Fora?)
> If you are serious, we all look forward to seeing you here again.
Couldn't agree more.
David, you didn't say if I could add your name to my users group mailing list ...
>
> Mr Smead wrote:
> >
> > > Enter VO2,5 which is an excellent product with a limited following and
> > works
> > > like a charm with or without CA marketing. Show this program to quite a
> > few
> > > Windows developers and they are impressed at what it can do. The real help
> > > now comes from Newsgroups like this and attending a VODEVCON at least once
> > a
> > > year and subscribing to the SDT international magazine.
> >
> > And there is one more thing to add to this - CA have not even bothered to
> > notify the majority of registered users (in Australia at least) about 2.5 -
> > I only found out about it by accident around 4 weeks ago!
> >
> > --
> > David Smead
> > Sydney, OZ
> > "Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:xfg36.7$Kb3...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
> > > Wow this is a big topic and some of it can be summarised along these
> > lines.
--
Gary Stark
I believe you. But it seems so terrible that such a large country like yours
has no VO-distributor. I guess you already know web sites like
You simply need to try to understand that, from CA's POV, what sort
of a product they see it as. And that can probably be best
discerned by what it is not.
VO is not a high profit item.
CA makes its $$$ on its high profit items, and it is those items that it seems to spend its marketing $$$ on. I for one would love to see an episode of ER with a VO box strategically placed in the nurse's station. In real life, that would be far more likely to happen than to see a copy of Ingress or Jasmine there.
But it seems that marketing and real life have nothing in common, do
they? <gbg>
the marketing manager of CA-Australia, I've no idea of the kind of
advertisement (if any) he has done for VO 2.5
Exactly the same as what they've done in the USA.
It will fill a matchbox.
A very small one.
Mr Smead
to
> ensure that I do keep myself informed. To do otherwise and then blast a
> product is somewhat shortsighted and thus you only do yourself and
> ultimately your client's a disservice.
Ed,
As I said until recently I was NOT aware of this forum.
I wasn't blasting the product as such - but will blast the marketing of the
product (which is what the thread was about in the first place).
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Ed Ratcliffe" <gryphon...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:wJo36.43228$Z33.4...@news0.telusplanet.net...
> David
Mr Smead
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message news:3A4E31C4...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Mr Smead
Gary,
I don't want to start arguments with you, but...
>And right through all of that time, there have been users groups and developer conferences. I've been actively involved with UGs >and Devcons since the late '80s, and have made a concious effort to keep myself up to date professionally.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message news:3A4E3433...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Phil McGuinness
sell VO2.5.. That was the offer from Charles Wang that users groups could
sell it.
But why reinvent the wheel.. Just order it from Brian at Grafxsoft and they
distribute all over the world overnight..
Ok.. Brian over to you.
Phil McGuinness
-----------------------
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:sth36.20422$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Marcos Nogueira
> I can only tell you the vast majority of Australian developers were
> waiting like the ladies waiting outside the Grace Bros Boxing day
> sales...hands on keyboard waiting to download 2.5 as soon as the doors
> opened.
> ...
This is true... Someone in this NG even managed to download 2.5b BEFORE
IT WAS MADE PUBLIC! Is this anxiety or what?
Greetings and a Happy New Year!
--
Marcos Nogueira
S. Paulo - Brazil
Gary Stark
> >And right through all of that time,
there have been users groups and developer conferences. I've been actively
> >involved with UGs
> >and Devcons since the late '80s,
and have made a concious effort to keep myself up to date professionally.
> And where has this information been made available to those that haven't had access to these NG's?
ROTFLMAO.
Let's see if I understand you here, ok?
You're working with VO, Delphi, Microsoft and Corel products right?
You have a computer, right?
Most likely a modem, too, right ?
My guess is that you've probably been using all of these devices and products, together, for more than just a few weeks, and your messages implicitly seem to confirm this.
And now you ask about where somebody gets this information if they don't
have access to a public
forum ??? You are joking, right ??
Please now go back and do me the courtesy of reading the complete text of my messages. Not just the bits that you fancy reading.
I have mentioned a number of different means of getting this information. Conferences. Compuserve. Users Groups. Newsgroups. Friends.
I have not mentioned some other means, like magazines, books, etc.
What about an Alta Vista or Yahoo! search with VO as the search string ?
Or how about just trawling the newsgroup names to see wtf is out there?
The information was there, not just for the asking, but for the
taking. That you don't actively go looking for it is really nobody's business,
or perhaps problem, but your own.
> >Better yet, wait three or
four years, and then blame someone else because you didn't get something
in the > >mail.
> What's this 'blame' business?
The thread was about CA's non-marketing of a product - which is very true
in > Australia.
The "blame" business is how you appear to be coming across - to me - in all of this. It's as if you seem to be saying "I wasn't told, and it's their fault".
Yet, you seem to be the only one who really doesn't appear to have been able to get this information. I'm in Sydney too. I know others in Sydney, and people in Gosford, Melbourne, and even Brisbane and parts further north who have all of this stuff at your fingers. I'm aware of VO developers in Adelaide who seem to up to date in this regard.
That CA didn't send something appears to be, for everyone else, largely irrelevalant, yet for you it seems to be this big boogey monster that has prevented you from using your own resources to find what you needed.
With all due respect, in this world, where we, as professional data processing people need to be seen as being, if not on the bleeding edge, at least somewhere close to it, that sort of thinking simply doesn't cut it. It's really not that different from being able to give your clients up-to-date information on the types of technology and hardware that they need to be using in their business, not just for today, but for tomorrow, and beyond.
I've said this before, but if if you
are not capable of keeping yourself up to date in this industry, then get
the hell out of it before it eats you alive! IOW, keeping yourself up to
date - whatever that might mean, for you - is nobody's business, or job,
but your own!
Now, CA's non-marketing of VO goes well beyond what they do (not) do in Oz. Trust me on that. I've spent a morning with Yogesh Gupta - a very long time ago - discussing exactly that. This was while VO 1.0 was still in alpha, btw.
But, you're wrong too. This thread was absolutely not about CA's non-marketing of a product. If you go back to the start of this thread, you will see that George Snodgrass was asking for input into whether or not he should go ahead and use the product.
It appears to have been hijacked along
the way; and again it would appear that some might have a poor grasp of
the facts.
>>
In all these years I have had, from the company marketing/distributing
them, continual advice of upgrades to
>> Delphi, Microsoft languages, Corel
plus the associated libraries I have bought and registered that are used
>> with these packages.
And to that I say, so what? If you would have read my postings,
you would have seen that I elected to not recieve that sort of stuff. Big
deal. If you like how Borland or Microsoft markets their stuff, I have
no argument with that; that is your personal choice.
But in all honesty, what the marketing people tell me about the products isn't worth a piece of shit, as far as I'm concerned. The only thing that matters to me is whether or not that product is usable, by me, after my own assessment of that product, in the various projects that I work on. FYI, at the one time last year I was working, simutaneously, on various projects using VO 2.0, VO 2.5, Clipper, VB, and VC++. All different projects, four different clients, five different tools.
In most cases, the most appropriate tools for each project were being used for each project.
And that is the important point.
>> BUT nothing at all from CA - not
a single letter, flyer or anything despite having registered their product.
>> Doesn't that say something to you
about their strategies?
Other than confirming what I have known for maybe seven or eight years
- which equates to the timeframe within which they acquired Nantucket,
no, not really.
Stephen Quinn
I do as well.
I pass over the crap threads once they get going though.
--
HTH
Steve Quinn
If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.
Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
Jeff Williams
only way to keep informed is to participate in news groups, User gropus and
attend conferences. I think a quick search of the internet reviels many
links to VO and to pages that help. If you have an interest you will go
looking for the information.
Gee is CA job to hold everybodys hand. I seem to know the same day when a
release for an upgrade is available without too much difficulty and if I
dont someone places a notice here, or in SDT or even www.knowvo.com and
www.cavo.com.
Well I have had my two cents worth. I would not swap VO for any other
product. It has grown since version 1.0 and makes easy development. My
clients are amaised at how quick I can perform updates/enhancements.
The CA support is wonderful for bugs. I have always got a responce.
Microsoft on the other hand still have not responded to a problem 6 months
ago. VO has a good future like Linux. Join the two together and you have
the best development environment.
Hope you all have a good New Year and I know I will enjoy myself tonight.
Jeff
Australia
Gary Stark
>> Vo 1 and 2.
Very interesting. But now you find
that these products no longer fit your needs? Please fill me in on the
details. I'm more than a little curious.
>>
This thread was originally about the problems associated with VO in the
marketplace - CA's marketing, here, >> and overseas, is and was a genuine
problem with VO.
No, As I've already said, you're totally
wrong here. This thread was originally started by George Snodgrass, enquiring
about opinions on the usability etc of VO. He was considering using it,
and his enquiry was legitimate, and valid. Others chimed in on CA's poor
marketing, and that was that.
>>
If a closed shop is what you are after, fine then so be it.
Ok, now I have to truly bring you to task here.
I choose my words very carefully, and I completely resent - and take great offense - when I am deliberately misquoted, or words that I have clearly not said, or inferences that I have not made, are then falsely attributed to me.
Please now, tell me exactly where I said that I wanted a closed shop.
I would contend that I said no such thing!
Further, I have been on record posting invitations to the VO community in general to attend events and functions such as user group meetings, conferences, and so on. For you to even begin to infer that I have sought a closed shop is well over the top, and entirely out of order.
In future I would suggest that you
check your facts, and your words, before writing.
Now, I note that you have completely
avoided commenting on the points I made in my post that you quoted in full.
Are you simply interested in starting arguments and upsetting people, or
do you have something valid and meaningful to say?
Mr Smead
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message news:3A4E6792...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Mr Smead
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message news:3A4E6AD3...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Gary Stark
Who said I was a guru? While I appreciate that you may think of me as such<g>, please be well aware that I have never, ever made such a claim.
Never will, either; I still have far too much to learn.
Again, you appear to be putting words into my mouth, and, as I've already said, that is something that I do not appreciate.
Now, if you would care to refute any of the points that I have made, then fair enough. But if you prefer to choose (as seems to be your preference) to simply nitpick, argue, and just be a kind of negative voice in this community and a general pain in the arse, then please, do continue.
But not with me. I have more important stuff to deal with.
It would appear obvious that, despite two explicit invitations to you to join in the users' group activities, you have some pent up feelings about some "old boys network" that I for one have absolutely no knowledge of, and that you probably, despite those two inviations, therefore won't be attending.
I would respectfully suggest that this is probably your loss more than the group's.
For what it's worth, with my having lived in the US for a number years, I find it difficult - amusing too - that you might believe that I, of all people, belong to some "old boys network".
Do have a pleasant new year.
--
Stephen Quinn
> > Nothing about VO farts without it being broadcast in this NG within 4
> > hours.
>
> This NG is probably a more definitive and reliable source of info than the
CA Open
> Forums (Fora?)
Except that CA post messages on that forum when updates and patches are made
available, whereas it's usually someone that uses this NG to inform users
here.
Stephen Quinn
> I dont know of many companies these day that notify you of updates. The
I own at least 5 products that offer mailing lists for notification of
updates - CAs InoculateIT being one of them (even though it's free).
The more I travel the net the more I see products using this type of
mechanism for informing users about updates (you need to opt in though, it's
not automatic).
Gary Stark
>> >> Very interesting. But now you find that these products no longer fit your needs? Please fill me in on the
>> >> details. I'm more than a little curious.
>> No I didn't say that - horses for courses.
But that's exactly what you did say ... here are your
words from your prior post: "I
had no need for the product again until recently - Delphi, C++ etc had
more thn adequately filled the void of Vo 1 and 2."
Which part of "until recently - Delphi, C++ etc had more thn adequately filled the void of Vo 1 and 2" is saying that these products do continue to fit your needs?
Even if we're simply talking about one project, they do not completely
satisfy your (clients') needs, do they? I was merely enquiring as to the
reasons behind this, and you answered that part of it perfectly adequately;
I thank you for that.
>>
>> Now, I note that you have completely avoided commenting on the points
I made in my post that you
>> >> quoted in full. Are you simply
interested in starting arguments and upsetting people, or do you have
>> >> something valid and meaningful
to say?>> No - the argument
started when it was claimed I was lambasting the PRODUCT (which I wasn't).
Actually, you do seem to pay little regard to the facts, don't you? The argument started, not when someone claimed you were lambasting the product, which, you correctly point out that you were not, but when Graham pointed out to you that there are a great many other ways of getting information about a product other than by direct mailout by the product's vendor.
Graham pointed out, and others supported, his view that this information (that you say, and I accept, you didn't have) was readily available through any number of alternate means.
I would contend that Graham's response may have been worded more strongly
than might have been prudent, but it is at that point that I believe you
adopted a defensive posture, ignoring all reasoned argument, and instead
choosing to attack personally, rather than reading what was actually being
said (written), and rather than responding to the points made, you simply
verbally bashed all and sundry.
And you have yet
to begin to present any form of counter argument - plausible or otherwise
- that keeping onesself up to date is entirely one's own responsibility.
When it's all said and done, I would challenge you that this is really
the nub of this particular discussion.
>> And yes, I didn't reply to
all the comments because they were aimed at claims the product itself was
the
>> root of the problem NOT the marketing
aspect.
No, I don't think so.
I believe that most of the comments posted in this part of this thread were agreeing that CA's (absence of) marketing was an issue, but for most people, a very minor one. The fact that most people seemed to have no problems in learning about all of these updates seems to support this concept.
Many of the posts seemed - to me - to imply that all of this information was readily available, and in any number of various public forums. All one needed to do was to look. And to choose to look. My own personal experience reflects this view.
And with just one exception, all seemed to have found this information in a timely manner.
Denial is not a river in Egypt ...
<g>
Gary Stark
Good point; thanx.
Cheers. How's the weather up there in the deep north ? <g>
Stephen Quinn wrote:
--
Mr Smead
> mechanism for informing users about updates (you need to opt in though,
it's
> not automatic).
That's true - but it's a catch-22 - you have to know about it to opt in and
to opt in you have to be told about it.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Stephen Quinn" <squ...@brutecom.com.au> wrote in message
news:3a4e77aa$0$7505$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Gary Stark
> mechanism for informing users about updates (you need to opt in though, it's
> not automatic).
Or, by implication, can choose to opt out.
I get far too much junk mail, both paper and electronic, as it is. I invariably
choose to opt out.
Brian, if I may digress and make a comment here ... I believe that you take a
most responsible, and professional, approach in the way you choose use the
marketing tools that you have at your disposal. You are to be commended on your
restraint, and I for one (perhaps I'm the only one) appreciate it.
All the best for the new year. By your (re)count, what year is it again ? <gbg>
Stephen Quinn
Overcast and a bit muggy.
Better than the 38+ we had to endure over the Christmas period though.
--
CYA
Gary Stark
That is where the value and power of the peer group networks comes in. Someone
else learns something and shares it with the rest of the group.
That's been going on for years, and years, and years. I don't expect it to stop
any time soon.
And that has been a major part of the point of all of this. Stay connected, in
any (and/or many) of the various ways, and you'll know what's going on.
And pretty damn quickly too!
FWIW, and IMHO, the peer group networks are far more informative and valuable
than the marketing blurbs, and well worth opting into.
Again, you may choose to call them a part of some "old boys network" (that's the
best one I've heard in a long time) and you may choose to ignore them too.
Horses for courses.
Mr Smead wrote:
--
Stephen Quinn
If I'm purchasing a product I make myself aware what's on offer about
support & updates at the website where I purchase from - mailing list/news
group/web board.
I'm not talking specifically about VO here, just products I've bought on the
net.
--
HTH
Steve Quinn
If you're too open minded, your brains will fall out.
Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:EOu36.20553$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Mr Smead
So do I - but if you stop using a product (for any reason) do you still go
looking for regular updates? One of the reasons you may stop is because it
may not be doing all you want - is it prudent, in todays comeptitive
environment, to continue to chase after 'lame ducks' (for want of a better
phrase) or continue to work with what you KNOW is getting the job done.
The other side of this coin though is that if you DO stop using a relatively
expensive product (substitute ANY product here, not just VO), IMO it would
be advantageous to the marketer/distributor for them to TELL you they have
improved beyond belief (well you know what I mean) their product - thus
hoping you are a) still using their product or b) if not, then you would
want to come back to it.
And, as I said, this is not directed sole ly at VO - there are a number of
products that can (and probably do) fall into this category).
The regular updates I get from Borland, Microsoft, Symantec, Corel,
TurboPower, Vista - they ALL keep me in touch with their upgrades, bug
fixes, improvements. Sadly the same cannot be said of CA (even back in
their CA-Clipper days) - and this is NOT a reflection on the product itself!
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Stephen Quinn" <squ...@brutecom.com.au> wrote in message
news:3a4e7d76$0$7484$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Stephen Quinn
> So do I - but if you stop using a product (for any reason) do you still go
> looking for regular updates? One of the reasons you may stop is because
it
> may not be doing all you want - is it prudent, in todays comeptitive
> environment, to continue to chase after 'lame ducks' (for want of a better
> phrase) or continue to work with what you KNOW is getting the job done.
Regular updates - no I don't.
What I might/usually do is check to see if there is a patch available to get
to the latest/last version and d/l that, so that if I want to go back to
using it I'll have at least the latest (of that version) without having to
fork out more money.
This may only be for maintenance purposes, not necessarily new development.
>
> The other side of this coin though is that if you DO stop using a
relatively
> expensive product (substitute ANY product here, not just VO), IMO it would
> be advantageous to the marketer/distributor for them to TELL you they have
> improved beyond belief (well you know what I mean) their product - thus
> hoping you are a) still using their product or b) if not, then you would
> want to come back to it.
It would be advantageous for the distributor yes
If was still using the product - I'd more than likely know it's status
without them having to tell me, but if I had dropped it (for whatever
reason) I'd more than likely ignore the blurb and it would be unlikely I'd
go back to using it.
The only reasons I might go back (and possibly upgrade) would have to do
with
a> Maintenance/upgrade of an existing app
b> New client and the product in question is the most suitable for the
job
> And, as I said, this is not directed sole ly at VO - there are a number of
> products that can (and probably do) fall into this category).
Understand
> The regular updates I get from Borland, Microsoft, Symantec, Corel,
> TurboPower, Vista - they ALL keep me in touch with their upgrades, bug
> fixes, improvements. Sadly the same cannot be said of CA (even back in
> their CA-Clipper days) - and this is NOT a reflection on the product
itself!
I get the same/similar notifications (Borland/Microsoft/TurboPower) but I
opted in to receive them (at least the email type), they aren't sent just
because I bought & registered their products (I get snail mail for that<g>).
Ray
that if and when Microsoft upgrade or enhance it, they will notify me.
Best regards
Ray
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:cOi36.20441$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> Gary,
>
> You can believe what you like or what Graham says - since buying 2.0 (so
> long ago I cannot remember the date) I have not had ONE single
communication
> from CA about ANY upgrade.
>
> I didn't say I was a VO-phile as you put it - however, circumstances about
3
> weeks ago made me look for info on VO - thus this group - and this was the
> FIRST place I saw anything about a 2.5. No - I had not been on to CA's
> site - I had no reason to - but the fact remains, CA have NOT advised all
> registered users of any further upgrades after 2.0.
>
> Graham may like to think they have - maybe it is Graham that should come
out
> from under the rock.
>
> Show me the advertising CA have done to promote ANY release of VO since
> 2.5 - it isn't generally available.
>
> Sure a UG is great - if people are told about them in the first place.
>
> Sorry Gary - I don't read every single message - no on e does - they
> usually scan for what they are specifically looking for - as I was. Even
> the start of this thread I skipped over - it didn't initially strike me as
> anything I was interested in. However the comment about CA not promoting
> itself (or VO) in Brazil DID strike a chord.
>
> --
> David Smead
> Sydney, OZ
> > > <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
> > > news:bDg36.20402$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> > > > > Enter VO2,5 which is an excellent product with a limited following
> and
> > > > works
> > > > > like a charm with or without CA marketing. Show this program to
> quite a
> > > > few
> > > > > Windows developers and they are impressed at what it can do. The
> real
> > > help
> > > > > now comes from Newsgroups like this and attending a VODEVCON at
> least
> > > once
> > > > a
> > > > > year and subscribing to the SDT international magazine.
> > > >
> > > > And there is one more thing to add to this - CA have not even
bothered
> to
> > > > notify the majority of registered users (in Australia at least)
about
> > > 2.5 -
> > > > I only found out about it by accident around 4 weeks ago!
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > David Smead
> > > > Sydney, OZ
> >
Phil McGuinness
TurboPower, Vista - they ALL keep me in touch with their upgrades, bug
Come all these companies what to flog you a new product... it is just a
way to stay in touch for the next sale..
I get this stuff from these companies all the time. Sell, sell, sell.
Phil McGuinness
-----------------------
>
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:Nkv36.20557$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Mr Smead
> way to stay in touch for the next sale..
Whether they are trying to sell me something is irrelevant - the fact is
that they *are* informing me of what they have.
When was the last time CA did this for you?
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> wrote in message
news:vjR36.8$Nv3....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Gary Stark
But yet, despite a number of invitations to join the activites of users' groups
here, or at least be included in mailing lists, and therefore be kept appraised
of all of this stuff that you continue to whinge and whine about, you continue
to flatly refuse to anything about it.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Mr Smead wrote:
--
Mr Smead
I replied to a particular statement - you must have been able to read more
into that than I can.
There is a saying - once bitten twice shy - I was bitten a number of years
ago by the ACUG/CUG(M) and I am NOT prepared to be bitten by them again. I
made a statement of fact - now if you want to consider that whinging - so be
it, but you cannot disprove or deny it as a factual statement.
I can, according to you, stay in touch through this NG - well that remains
to be seen (I am not saying I can't) - but you said yourself, there are
horses for courses - I will leave my options open.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3A4FEC00...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Gary Stark
No, not really that much to read into in this instance. You said "Whether they are trying to sell me something is irrelevant - the fact is that they *are* informing me of what they have."
You have been informed a number of times that one of the best ways to be kept informed is through peer group interaction, yet, until now, you have not just refused to acknowledge, but actually ignored invitations to join such groups.
Perhaps it matters to you who does the informing? It certainly does to me.
If you prefer to receive all of this marketing bs, then be my guest. I'll be more than happy to forward all of the spam I get on to you. <g>
If, however, you prefer to be the recipient of informed comment, discussion, and the like, then your failure to join in with your peers is and will be exactly that. Your failure.
And your choice.
>>There is a saying - once bitten twice shy - I was bitten a number
of years
>>ago by the ACUG/CUG(M) and I am NOT prepared to be bitten by them
again.
Oh, I see .... Now the real reasons start to surface. The anger has a source ...
So this is a personal grudge, perhaps held against some individuals who may - or may not - be still involved? And through your own pettiness, and perhaps your own refusal to look at the facts, as they might stand today, you are fully prepared to cut off your nose, simply to spite your face?
I seriously wonder at exactly how nasty a bloody users' group bite, of all things, might be. You are, honestly, an excellent source of humour for me. I cannot believe some of the utter nonsensical statements that seem to be sourced from your keyboard.
A users' group has hurt you, you poor little dahling? Go and sit in
the corner and cry into your corn flakes... <smile>
Come on, David. You say this happened several years ago? Grow up, man.
GET OVER IT!
--
Mr Smead
>>There is a saying - once bitten twice shy - I was bitten a number of
years
>>ago by the ACUG/CUG(M) and I am NOT prepared to be bitten by
them again.
Oh, I see .... Now the real reasons start to surface. The anger has a source ...
Wake up Gary - I choose not to join because that is my choice - if I felt I would garner greater information on a potential product from it then I might consider joining - however I don't - once bitten etc etc - don't try reading anything into it other than what was said.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message news:3A4FF4F...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Ray Manning
I continue to be amazed to find your continuing tirades in c.l.c.v-o.
as well as in c.l.c.
On Mon, 01 Jan 2001 02:44:00 GMT, "Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote:
>Gary,
>
>I replied to a particular statement - you must have been able to read more
>into that than I can.
>
>There is a saying - once bitten twice shy - I was bitten a number of years
>ago by the ACUG/CUG(M) and I am NOT prepared to be bitten by them again.
I am fascinated by the above statement, in particular CUG(M) Clipper
User Group Melbourne (Australia) As I was the membership secretary in
it's last year of existence I still have all the old records and have
no reference indicating your membership of CUG(M). You may of course
have only been registered with the group under a companies membership.
(I have not of course delved through all the old paper records.)
Whilst a member of CUG(M) almost since it's creation I have had
nothing but admiration for all those "Good" dedicated people who put
so much effort into makeing the group what is was: -- The biggest and
most successful Clipper User Group in the world.
There are many people here in the VO ng and the Clipper ng who were
either committee members of CUG(M) or members of CUG(M). You seem to
be the only person with continuous complaints.
Have you ever thought of undertaking "Horizontal Stress Relief"
Please relax a bit. If you are on a "High Horse" too often you can
easily have a big fall.
Try taking up some of the kind offers to help you. I am sure that if
you approach people in a pleasant manner, Everyone will forgive you
and move onwards to an even better New Year!!
Happy New Year to ALL!!! (lurkers included). Not forgetting all those
former CUG(M) people. <BG>
Regards Ray Manning
Melbourne, Australia
P.S. I believe Ross McKenzie is still awaiting for your appolgy
<Snip>
Gary Stark
>>a potential product from it then I might consider joining - however I don't - once bitten etc etc - don't try
>>reading anything into it other than what was said.
But David, upon what basis of established facts is that choice made?
No, David. It's high time that you woke up.
To yourself.
If you're telling me that marketing blurbs from any organisation - note that very carefully: any organisation - extolling the virtues of their own bloody products, will be of better value than objective assessments from those who actually have to use these products, rather than those who earn money by trying to sell you the stuff that they're telling you about, then I'm not at all surprised that it took you so damn long to find out about VO 2.5.
Hell, I'll bet that you even think that WinME is an all new version
of Windows, too!
You're not only blind, but your seeing-eye dog is too.
And he's deaf as well.
And he left his walking stick on the train. Too bad about that part; it could have been useful; he could have beaten a little bit of common sense and reason into you!
Go on. Please keep on living in your little dream world. Enjoy it. FYI, Fantasia 2000 is now showing at the iMax in Darling Harbour. I would highly commend it to you for its title's relevance to your apparent willingness to accept reality . I'll commend it to others for its artistic merits.
Mind you, the original Fantasia, now over 60 years old, is probably
more in keeping with what appears to be your own level of technical preparedness.
Let me apologise now for getting personal, but you appear to be acting in such a negative manner, that I truly feel sorry for all who might have the misfortune to deal with your negativity, your ignorance, and what seems to be your prejudices, in your so-called professional life.
Take the cotton wool out of your ears, and take a serious and objective look at the rubbish that you write.
And have a great Federation Day.
Gary Stark
Glad to see that you made it through to the other side! <g> I trust that your
celebrations were safe, relatively sane, and somewhat - but not too - sober.
> >I replied to a particular statement - you must have been able to read more
> >into that than I can.
> >
> >There is a saying - once bitten twice shy - I was bitten a number of years
> >ago by the ACUG/CUG(M) and I am NOT prepared to be bitten by them again.
>
> I am fascinated by the above statement, in particular CUG(M) Clipper
> User Group Melbourne (Australia) As I was the membership secretary in
It's intriguing to me that someone can be so bitter about something so trivial
(in terms of one's life) as a users' group. Especially if, as your research and
experience seems to indicate, he wasn't even a member of this group.
As I said in another post, even if there was some real cause for complaint,
many years ago, it probably really is time for him to simply get over it. Can
you imagine holding a grudge for so many years? He must love getting up each
morning, just so that he can kick the cat! <g>
I vote for not involving David in any indiginous peoples' reconcilation talks.
Maybe he's an advisor to Little Johnnie? <g>
> Whilst a member of CUG(M) almost since it's creation I have had
> nothing but admiration for all those "Good" dedicated people who put
I was never involved with the Melbourne group, but have been extensively and
directly invloved with similar groups in California, Dallas, and of course,
Sydney. Plus, I've been less extensively involved with many other similar
groups all over the world, and I can only echo your sentiments here. Without
those groups, I doubt that Clipper would remain as strong a language as it
still seems to be today.
And without the input of those remaining groups, I seriously doubt that we
would have even seen VO 2.0, let alone 2.5.
> P.S. I believe Ross McKenzie is still awaiting for your appolgy
I don't believe I've seen that either. Come on, David, are you a man, or just a
raving ratbag ?
Mr Smead
very carefully: any organisation - extolling the virtues of their own bloody
products, will be of better value than objective assessments from those who
actually have to use these products, rather than those who earn money by
trying to sell you the stuff that they're telling you about, then I'm not at
Get it right - I stated that I receive notification of UPGRADES and NEW
VERSIONS from these other companies - something CA did NOT do for 2.5 (and
IIRC didn't even do for 2.0)
Obviously your only come back is to get personal - I have never met you, you
have never met me - sop why you stoop to that level is - well lets leave it
at that.
--
David Smead
Sydney, OZ
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3A50060E...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...
Geoff Schaller
"Stephane Hebert" <stephhebert@yourpants~videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:XYp36.6570$Cl1.2...@weber.videotron.net...
> David,
>
> > Sorry Gary - I don't read every single message - no on e does -
>
> I do. That makes one. Anybody else ? <G>
Geoff Schaller
I have been following these posts in this side-thread with some amusement.
What you seem to be saying is that you bought a box, opened it, then sat
down in the corner and waited for the world to come to you ??? !!??? !!???
Sorry, but we are on different planets. Whilst you may wish to be spoon-fed
by humongous marketing machines like MS, its simply not going to happen with
an elite tool like VO and a company like CA. However, did you join you local
user group (Gary would be happy to take you in <g>)? Did you monitor CA's
web sites? Have you checked out KnowVO? Did you monitor the CA FTP site....
Oops! I'm talking about the internet, I guess.
The reality is that the IT world really does revolve around the internet and
it will become more so as time goes by. Look at C# and .NET - its all
happening in double quick time.
But hey, we Aussies are a fairly active bunch. Please join one of our user
groups and please support our conference. Maybe the "loop" wasn't what you
were expecting but we would be happy to include you and anybody else within
it.
Geoff Schaller
(PS - If it makes you feel any better, we find new VO'ers in Oz almost every
week. All we can do is help educate and guide them into the world-wide VO
community. As you can see by this NG, there are some very helpful minds and
some very talented wits... <g>)
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:YXi36.20446$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> And I will state again - this is all very well for those CURRENTLY using
> it - but NOT for those, like myself, who put it aside shortly after 2.0
came
> out. Yes I am now monitoring the NG's BUT it still doesn't answer why
there
> was no other information made available about it (the world does NOT
revolve
> around the internet despite Grahams protestations that we should)
>
> --
> David Smead
> Sydney, OZ
> "Bruce Boddington" <bru...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:3A4DBB31...@bigpond.net.au...
> > David
> >
> > I can only tell you the vast majority of Australian developers were
> > waiting like the ladies waiting outside the Grace Bros Boxing day
> > sales...hands on keyboard waiting to download 2.5 as soon as the doors
> > opened.
> >
> > If you did not know this, it only reflects on your capacity to garner
> > information in this current environment. This NG was a-buzz weeks
> > before, the CA site had heralded it - WTF were you?
> >
> > There is no Australian distributor, you can only blame yourself. It may
> > be a good time to start monitoring this NG seriously, to learn not only
> > about how to use VO, but also the goss about upgrades and problems.
> > Nothing about VO farts without it being broadcast in this NG within 4
> > hours.
> >
> > If you are serious, we all look forward to seeing you here again.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> >
> > Mr Smead wrote:
> > >
> > > > Enter VO2,5 which is an excellent product with a limited following
and
> > > works
> > > > like a charm with or without CA marketing. Show this program to
quite
> a
> > > few
> > > > Windows developers and they are impressed at what it can do. The
real
> help
> > > > now comes from Newsgroups like this and attending a VODEVCON at
least
> once
> > > a
> > > > year and subscribing to the SDT international magazine.
> > >
> > > And there is one more thing to add to this - CA have not even bothered
> to
> > > notify the majority of registered users (in Australia at least) about
> 2.5 -
> > > I only found out about it by accident around 4 weeks ago!
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Smead
> > > Sydney, OZ
> > > "Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:xfg36.7$Kb3...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
> > > > Wow this is a big topic and some of it can be summarised along these
> > > lines.
>
>
Geoff Schaller
> I am what Geoff call a hobbyist not at all a professional programmer. I
was as
> many Clipper users also a hobbyist (or at least a personal user). In the
first
> month I struggle with VO 2.5, I weep and I cry and mostly blow the thing
to hell
Well.... not quite. I don't mean to imply that YOU are a hobbyist, just that
your use of VO might be. As opposed to those of us who use VO to earn a
living... In point of fact, your non-professional use of VO could very well
be more advanced than some of us who get paid to use it! Especially if you
have the luxury of time to experiment and test (I still use SLEBrowsing in
my apps and like the transparency stuff you did).
Perhaps your term of Personal User would in fact be more diplomatic <g>.
But an important point comes out of your discussion. Regardless of the use,
VO is not a trifling for anyone. Regardless of the intended use, all of us
need support (or at least would enjoy some support) to help advance our
knowledge of the language. It is a brave person that attempts to succeed on
their own.
Geoff
Gary Stark
Mr Smead wrote:
> If you're telling me that marketing blurbs from any organisation - note that
> very carefully: any organisation - extolling the virtues of their own bloody
> products, will be of better value than objective assessments from those who
> actually have to use these products, rather than those who earn money by
> trying to sell you the stuff that they're telling you about, then I'm not at
> all surprised that it took you so damn long to find out about VO 2.5. Gary,
>
> Get it right - I stated that I receive notification of UPGRADES and NEW
> VERSIONS from these other companies - something CA did NOT do for 2.5 (and
> IIRC didn't even do for 2.0)
Yep. I did.
I got that absolutely correct. Marketing blurb.
If advising you of upgrades and new versions - so that you can buy them - is not
marketing blurb, then what, pray tell, would you choose to call it? I know that
in most instances, they're issued by ... wait for it ... the marketing
department!
> Obviously your only come back is to get personal - I have never met you, you
Actually, you seem to be the expert on personal attacks, judging by your history
on this and other newsgroups. When do you feel you might make a public apology
to Ross in c-l-c ?
That we have never met comes to me as no surprise. If you don't make the effort
come to user group events, and/or conferences, then you will not meet anyone.
I'd have thought that to be simple enough to understand.
And you will continue to be kept in the dark.
> have never met me - sop why you stoop to that level is - well lets leave it
> at that.
As I said, you certainly seem to be the expert in personal attacks and avoiding
the gist of the messages; I've just been following your lead here. :)
But you're absolutely correct. We should stop this, and my killfiling your user
ID within my newsgroup reader will easily see to that.
I wish you well in your future endeavours, and truly hope that at some future
stage in your life you will develop enough maturity to realise that the world
will not be coming to you on any platter, no matter how much you might think you
deserve it.
But, if and when you do feel that we - the user group community - are good
enough for you, please feel free to let us know. I can assure you that I will
not bear a grudge, and that you will be made to feel welcome.
Now, you can go back and kick the cat again. :)
Juergen Knauf
of the new 2.5b 1 patch 1 week after releasing it.
And this a very annoying thing.
"Stephen Quinn" <squ...@brutecom.com.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3a4e7298$0$7511$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> Gary
>
> > > Nothing about VO farts without it being broadcast in this NG within 4
> > > hours.
> >
> > This NG is probably a more definitive and reliable source of info than
the
> CA Open
> > Forums (Fora?)
>
> Except that CA post messages on that forum when updates and patches are
made
> available, whereas it's usually someone that uses this NG to inform users
> here.
>
Geoff Schaller
From what I saw, there was a flood of posts on just about every NG and
website that had something even remotely to do with VO. I didn't
specifically read the German open forum but you certainly watch this NG and
I know it and the English open forum were flooded with details 6 minutes
after it was released! Are you saying that you somehow "missed" the
existence of the patch? Just for interest, exactly how long after the
patch's release did you know of its existence and from where?
Geoff
"Juergen Knauf" <jKn...@kp-software.de> wrote in message
news:92qbjp$fe9$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
Phil McGuinness
Innoculate from CA, ) which I get emails about later versions and new
viruses that have been released twice a week ) I would expert to hear from
them about VO stuff.
They did not ask me to subscribe to a list and I get no notification.. No
surprise I guess.
Why dont you bookmark ww.knowvo.com and on their front page they tell you
went patches are available.
Phil McGuinness
-----------------------
"Mr Smead" <sm...@hook.net> wrote in message
news:bAR36.20787$Xx3....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Juergen Knauf
i can' t understand why they do not inform the user about a new release on
their own offical support site.
What a great ignorance.
By the way I have no time to read all forums of CA.
I think, such important information have to be announced in all relevant
forums.
Juergen
"Geoff Schaller" <geof...@bigpond.net.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:86846.41017$xW4.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Juergen Knauf
if CA would sell it to a smaller company which have to make profit wih it.
Juergen
"Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:A4a46.23$hK3....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Juergen Knauf
or for new features for their intern development(jasmine?), they will drop
it.
So there is a great risk, that VO can get specialized for only CA needs.
Juergen
"Phil McGuinness" <hey...@sherlock.com.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:vjR36.8$Nv3....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
JPV
If you want to buy the box from GrafX, that's not the main problem. David
Smead complains more about lack of advertisement, than a way to find a box.
I mean that if a local reseller have a little profit on each box he sales,
he will do the promotion of the product. CA doesn't make it, obviously.
Brian cannot make it more all around the world. User groups have limited
resources to do it. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but I think that
several local works can be more efficient than a global one, even if all the
local resellers ask Brian to provide them with VO boxes.
Sincerely,
JPV
Geoff Schaller
No, you are wrong and you are being very unfair on several levels.
1. CA, as a company, does not have direct contact with any users. Even
the RegisterIT people jealously guard access to registered names precisely
to preserve our anonymity. You would be the first to complain if your name
was used inappropriately for marketing purposes. Let us not judge the "past"
but what is now.
2. CA deals through distributors. It is the distributor who "owns" the
name of product purchasers, not CA. CA does not have any rights of access to
our names and nor should. Thus, it has no mechanism to deal with us
directly.
3. This situation is quite standard throughout the industry. For example,
I did not receive any personal advice of NT patches from MS until I signed
for one of their many news and mailing services. CA also has such services
(and Open Forums is one). If you sign up to those services and use them, you
will get all the notification you need.
4. This NG is an acknowledged leading forum for news about CA. CA
themselves encourage our participation here and even offer information for
distribution within it. This forum, because it is inhabited by beta testers
and others, thus because the EARLIEST point of notification for such things.
This is something to be proud of.
5. The three CA sites and mechanisms which do distribute product
information all carried advice of the released patch within 72 hours (go
back and review Open Forums if you don't believe me). In the case of 2.5b-1
it was within 12 hours of the official release.
6. All VO products and patches carry advice in the Readme or WhatsNew
docs as to the appropriate places to watch for further news of CA products
and upgrades. Naturally, their prime mechanism is the Open Forums. If you
don't read these files then you have no right to criticise CA for a lack of
information. If you did read those files then your criticisms of a lack of
information from CA are simply scurrilous.
Have a great day.
Geoff Schaller
"Juergen Knauf" <jKn...@kp-software.de> wrote in message
news:92rtda$p2t$03$3...@news.t-online.com...
Geoff Schaller
> It would be the Best for VO, if CA would sell it to a
> smaller company which have to make profit with it.
This is not a very smart comment.
The worst thing in the world for VO would be to have it "sold" to a small
company. Who would be its developers? How would they gain the depth of
experience our current team has? Why would a small company be able to make a
profit where CA can't? What makes you certain that VO doesn't make a profit?
And if its moved, we lose the benefit of the huge support from a company as
large as CA (which to some extent, carry a low-margin product like VO with
relative ease). What would happen to our link to products like Neugents and
Jasmine?
Nope, I don't think this is the answer at all.
Geoff Schaller
(My real name too <g>)
Gary Stark
I can understand Juergen's logic here, but I agree with you.
It is my understanding that when CA acquired Nantucket, Nantucket were, shall we
say, experiencing some measure of financial strain.
CA has very deep pockets, and it is this very fact that has permitted them to
throw $$$ at the development eforts that we've seen. That they choose to only
actively market those products that they consider have a high margin is a
business decision that I can appreciate, even if I may not personally agree that
it's the best way to market VO.
Were CA to offload VO, would they offload the product only, and retain the
development staff, or offload the whole division? In the first instance, as you
say, who would take over the workload? In the second, who else has the deep
pockets necessary to keep up development on a low margin product? Micro$oft ?
But in reality, when CA acquires a product, it remains acquired.
Love 'em or hate 'em, we're stuck with 'em. :)
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Also a real name.
Geoff Schaller wrote:
--
Juergen Knauf
What about nantucket?
"Geoff Schaller" <geof...@bigpond.net.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:kOf46.41533$xW4.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Juergen Knauf
on the German VO Open Forum, there was no offical announcement.
I personally wrote a message to inform the other 1 week later after
releasing the patch.
Juergen
"Geoff Schaller" <geof...@bigpond.net.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:JHf46.41526$xW4.3...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Stephen Quinn
> What about nantucket?
>
They don't exist (as a company) anymore.
--
HTH
Steve Quinn
Accept than some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue.
There is no right way to do the wrong thing.
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
-- Thomas Edison
Geoff Schaller
forum... and in what capacity. However, CA, being a US company, deals
officially in English. The main forum is the English, so fortunately or
unfortunately as the case may be, its the English one which is publicised in
distributed literature and on the US web site. I don't think you'd criticise
a German company for making German its official language.
Geoff
"Juergen Knauf" <jKn...@kp-software.de> wrote in message
news:92s9q8$i42$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
Geoff Schaller
They were going belly up very quickly so in one sense, if it wasn't for CA,
there may not have been any VO at all. I for one am glad CA took it on.
Geoff
"Juergen Knauf" <jKn...@kp-software.de> wrote in message
news:92s9qa$i42$06$2...@news.t-online.com...
Gary Stark
Nantucket do not exist these days.
Or if they do, it's certainly not in the same form as they did back in 1992 when
they were gobbled up.
Juergen Knauf wrote:
--
VN/g...@flinet.com
Sorry, not to get back to you sooner.
> Only one?
Only one, that all you get ;-)
I demand a recount. Or a reccount().:)
Now, Now, you want to use LastRec() :-)
>Happy new year to you and the family.
Thanks, and to your's as well !
Including the four-legged members.
Nick say's Bow Wow !
VN/g...@flinet.com
"> But why reinvent the wheel.. Just order it from Brian at Grafxsoft and
they
> distribute all over the world overnight..
> Ok.. Brian over to you.
Ahhhhhh OK,
To order VO 2.5 upgrades
http://www.grafxsoft.com/vo25.htm
HTH's
Gary Stark
> Including the four-legged members.
> Nick say's Bow Wow !
As long as the tail's wagging with the usual enthusiasm, what more is
there to life ?
Johel de Souza Filho
"Gary Stark" <gst...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com> escreveu na mensagem news:3A4C11A8...@DONTSPAMRedbacksWeb.com...[snip]
What you say of the VO market - or the general absence of one - in Brazil, though, is reflected elsewhere throughout the world. Here in Oz, it almost seems that one can count the number of VO users on the fingers of just one hand. <g>
Seriously, throughout the world, VO market is indeed small.
But in all honesty, so what?
I know what I can do, and it really matters not - to my end user clients - what my choice of tool is. In fact, it's none of their damn business! As long as I can meet their needs with the products I produce for them, my choice of tools is largely unimportant to them.
So, as long as I can use the tool; as long as I can remain productive with the tools that I choose to use, what the rest of the world choses to do in this regard - for their needs - doesn't matter to me, and - to me - remains unimportant. As it stands today, CA have provided me with a very usable, and viable tool. That their marketing of this product (IMHO) is so poor so as to be a complete and utter farce is not relevant.
I know how to use it, and little else matters. The fact that the little schoolkid down the road thinks he's a crash-hot VB programmer because he can paint a screen doesn't bother me at all, because when it comes to the crunch, that guy, and probably around 90% of other VB programmers, haven't the foggiest idea about attaching raw data to treeview or listview items, for instance.
[snip]
Johel de Souza Filho
Johel de Souza Filho
You got my vote for the best joke of 2001... very good!
Johel
"Ray" <R...@imagineIT.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:EFG36.1764$RB2.2...@news3.cableinet.net...
> I'm with Mr Smead on this. As a registered user of Win 3.1 I can assure
you
> that if and when Microsoft upgrade or enhance it, they will notify me.
>
> Best regards
> Ray
Johel de Souza Filho
> Please Somebody talk me into CA-Visual Objects.
So let me give you my contribution:
I bought VO in may/95. It was version 1.0b. I ran it in a 486DX2/66 MHz PC
with 8 MB RAM. No problem. Then I compiled SSA and ran it. I found it too
slow and I was frustrated. All my clients used 486/66 or slower machines and
in no way they would like such slowness. Then I looked at the SSA's
source code and I thought I would never be able to understand it (I was
wrong, of course). In november/1995 I got my first request for a Windows app
from a client and started to build it. It was a nightmare. GPFs all the
time.
Then in february/1996 I had an idea: I bought a Pentium133 + Windows For
WorkGroup 3.11 and linked my old 486 with my new Pentium using WFW's
peer-to-peer network. I installed VO 1.0c (the current version at that time)
at the Pentium and used it just for creating the apps and compiling/building
them. Every time I needed to test an app I would build it at the Pentium,
move it to the 486 through the network and ran it in the 486. IT WORKED! No
more wasting time rebuilding the repository or loosing code due to a GPF.
The drawback: I could not use the debugger. But I could live with that and
even nowadays I use the same working method. Fact is I delivered 2 or 3 kind
of apps compiled with VO 1.0c-2 that worked very well and made my clients
happy. The only problems I had were when I tried to use LightLib. It never
worked 100%, I lost one client and them dumped LightLib.
In may/1997 I bought VO 2.0 and in september/1997 I started to move my
clients from VO 1.0c-2 to 2.0a1. By then VO1 had fulfilled its mission:
deliver to my clients a real Windows app as soon as possible to fight VB and
Delphi competitors.
Regards,
Johel
PS: I still have the VO1 box, disks, registration cards and all. In fact, I
still have the Clipper Summer'87 box and all upgrades after it... time to
think about build a local museum :-)
.
Willie Moore
I stiill use clipper with some of my clients. They have no inclination to
move to a windows app and they pay (ontime). Therefore, I still support and
enchance their apps <g>.
As for why someone would want to use VC++ instead of VO 2.5. Consider the
Palm and other handheld devices. VO does not run on ANY of them. However,
VC++ does. Therefore, if you are trying to write a VO app that communicates
with one of these devices, you will have to write the device part in a
language that supports it.
For me, VO is my language of choice. But, when starting a project, I try to
look at what is most appropirate for that project.
Regards,
Willie
"Johel de Souza Filho" <johels...@netsite.com.br> wrote in message
news:93kav6$jda$1...@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
Pavel Vetesnik
I
> still have the Clipper Summer'87 box and all upgrades after it... time to
> think about build a local museum :-)
I understand <g>.
Last week I was asked to modify a bit my old invoicing program, written in
1992 (Clipper 5.01, DBFNTX driver). It was unchanged since that time! Very
funny to see it. The world was so simple! <g>
Pavel
Johel de Souza Filho
> As for why someone would want to use VC++ instead of VO 2.5. Consider the
> Palm and other handheld devices. VO does not run on ANY of them. However,
> VC++ does. Therefore, if you are trying to write a VO app that
communicates
> with one of these devices, you will have to write the device part in a
> language that supports it.
That's why I asked Gary. But you were faster. Use VB or VC++ if you want to
do something with PocketPC. Use Clipper or VO 2.0 if you still have old,
stable app that should stay as is.
> For me, VO is my language of choice. But, when starting a project, I try
to
> look at what is most appropirate for that project.
Yes, I agree.
Regards,
Johel