Clarion 5.5

[David Brown]

Hi,

We have a project that was written using Clarion 5.5 and SocketWrench.
The original project was developed outside our company, but we have to
be able to do at least simple modifications or bug fixes ourselves in
the future. We have no prior experience with Clarion, but we will be
able to get help with basics of Clarion development.

However, we need to get a copy of Clarion 5.5 and SocketWrench. We
would prefer not to work with the latest version of Clarion, because we
don't want to have to deal with any incompatibilities or porting issues.
But when I contacted Soft Velocity about this, they say they no longer
sell version 5.5.

Does anyone here know how and where we can legally get a license and
installation media for this version of Clarion? Is it something that
people can sell second-hand, and if so is there anyone who can sell us a
license?

mvh.,

David Brown
Norway.

[Hans Kjaergaard]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:32:33 +0200, David Brown
<david...@removethis.hesbynett.no> wrote:

>Does anyone here know how and where we can legally get a license and
>installation media for this version of Clarion? Is it something that
>people can sell second-hand, and if so is there anyone who can sell us a
>license?

Ask here http://www.softvelocity.com/

There is a forum just for Clarion, but you need a Clarion license to
join.


/Hans

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:32:33 +0200, David Brown wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We have a project that was written using Clarion 5.5 and SocketWrench.
> The original project was developed outside our company, but we have to
> be able to do at least simple modifications or bug fixes ourselves in
> the future. We have no prior experience with Clarion, but we will be
> able to get help with basics of Clarion development.

David,

It might be a bit easier to find someone willing to sell a Clarion 6
license, and the IDE is MUCH better - Clarion 6 was a very mature Clarion
product before SoftVelocity moved to Clarion 7 and 32 bit IDE.

You might need to consider contracting with someone to bring this project
minimally from C5.5 to C6.

Another consideration - C6 and before - 16 bit IDE programs - so you'll
need to work with Vista 32 or XP.

David

>
> However, we need to get a copy of Clarion 5.5 and SocketWrench. We
> would prefer not to work with the latest version of Clarion, because we
> don't want to have to deal with any incompatibilities or porting issues.
> But when I contacted Soft Velocity about this, they say they no longer
> sell version 5.5.
>
> Does anyone here know how and where we can legally get a license and
> installation media for this version of Clarion? Is it something that
> people can sell second-hand, and if so is there anyone who can sell us a
> license?
>
> mvh.,
>
> David Brown
> Norway.

--
From David Troxell - Product Scope 7.9 - Encourager Software
Email - mailto:c3p_Remove_@_Me_encouragersoftware.com
EZChangeLog Reporter 2.1 Available - http://www.encouragersoftware.com/
http://www.encouragersoftware.com/software-developers.html

[David Brown]

I talked to Soft Velocity themselves, and they were unable to sell me
the old version. And I can't access the forums because I don't yet have
a license - and I'd rather not have to buy a license for the current
version just to be able to buy an older version too, if I can avoid it.

[David Brown]

On 31/08/12 13:35, David Troxell - Encourager Software wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 21:32:33 +0200, David Brown wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We have a project that was written using Clarion 5.5 and SocketWrench.
>> The original project was developed outside our company, but we have to
>> be able to do at least simple modifications or bug fixes ourselves in
>> the future. We have no prior experience with Clarion, but we will be
>> able to get help with basics of Clarion development.
>
> David,
>
> It might be a bit easier to find someone willing to sell a Clarion 6
> license, and the IDE is MUCH better - Clarion 6 was a very mature Clarion
> product before SoftVelocity moved to Clarion 7 and 32 bit IDE.
>
> You might need to consider contracting with someone to bring this project
> minimally from C5.5 to C6.

It's worth considering - maybe moving the project from 5.5 to 6.0
involves less work than moving it to the latest version of Clarion.

However, I'm trying to avoid version porting if I can. If we first have
to contract someone to move the project from Clarion 5.5, we would
probably be better off re-writing completely it in a more mainstream
language.

>
> Another consideration - C6 and before - 16 bit IDE programs - so you'll
> need to work with Vista 32 or XP.

XP is no problem. When I have to use Windows, it is my version of
choice anyway.

Thanks for the tips,

David

[tuzm...@gmail.com]

Hi David,

I am available if you need someone to do a conversion of C55 project to C6 or to latest C8.

I am a clarion developer with +12years of experience in both ABC and Legacy Template chains from C5 to C8x and lots of third party templates.

I have been involved in lots of remote consulting firms from US,Canada, UK and Croatia. Should you want to migrate to C6 first, you can contact me.

Regards
Tuz

[Richard Rose]

I'd keep the app in C55 if its not causing any problems other than
needing some new functionality (and depends on what new functionality
needs to be added) simply becuase if the program was not well written
you will need to make sure all variables are thread safe in C6
including any Queues in use as one example and the C6 compiler enforces
the code syntax more rigorously so code that didnt throw a compiler
error in C55 could throw a compiler error in C6. Migrating to C6 could
be a can of worms. Lets just call them some of the undocumented
features of C55. Some templates will need revisiting in C6 if used as
they were modified so could mean reselecting a template option which
will be time consuming.

I've migrated a number of apps to later versions of Clarion and all
have had their own problems when migrating to C6 or later. Programmers
all have different styles and the vast majority dont program
defensively ie not trapping and handling errors. Clarion also attracts
alot of non programmers becuase any amateur with half a brain cell can
knock out something resembling a program so thats also worth bearing in
mind when taking on other peoples work to convert.

If you use MDI child windows the C6-C8 RTL uses the window API
CreateMDIWindowA to build MDI child windows and MS suggest using
CreateWindowEx as a more efficient way to create MDI child windows.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms644908%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#child_creation

Contrary to what some like to put out, MDI has not been deprecated as
one can see from this link
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms644908%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
it was updated in Sept 2012 and this link is what a deprecated API or
in this case deprecated structures looks like.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671209%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

I mention this becuase there is a rumour circulating the MDI has been
deprecated but there is nothing official on their website and I have
asked MS employees who would be in the know.


In the C7/C8 runtime, sleep delays were added to the start of each new
thread in a bid to help minimise the multiple MDI min/max/close buttons
from appearing, users have reported C7 apps were slower than C6, and I
believe in C8 MDI toolbar support was dropped as well to also help
minimise the mdi button problem but the MDI API call hasnt been changed
as at the latest build in C8 in July 2012, in favour of what MS
recommends.

Its also worth noting that when a MDI child window sometimes
dissappears off screen and in the ini file its got the XY coords
-2147023728 this value is a fixed value passed by the runtime to the
window api CreateMDIWindowA when its called. Ideally the RTL would look
for any reg/ini window position before creating the window but it
doesnt and thats not the only critisicm I have the RTL in its C8
version, but I dont run the company!

C6 isnt as stable on Vista/W7 32 as C6 is on XP but its very solid on
XP, although your biggest risk is having too many controls on a
window/report or embed code which goes beyond the 16bit register
limits.

If you run C6 in seperate memory and make the template registry
readonly you can also run multiple instances of Clarion all at the same
time.

You could buy C8 and use the C55 compiler and runtime in the new IDE
but people report variable IDE stability issues, if you dont change the
IDE layouts and config too much you get less stability issues, but if
you want to undock taskbars and make the IDE more of your own then
things become alittle disconnected.

Just a few points which could affect you at this moment from someone
who has used it since the dos CPD 2.1 days but is now also porting
their apps to other languages to take advantage of what is missing from
Clarion.

[David Brown]

On 12/09/12 01:12, Richard Rose wrote:
> I'd keep the app in C55 if its not causing any problems other than
> needing some new functionality (and depends on what new functionality
> needs to be added) simply becuase if the program was not well written
> you will need to make sure all variables are thread safe in C6 including
> any Queues in use as one example and the C6 compiler enforces the code
> syntax more rigorously so code that didnt throw a compiler error in C55
> could throw a compiler error in C6. Migrating to C6 could be a can of
> worms. Lets just call them some of the undocumented features of C55.
> Some templates will need revisiting in C6 if used as they were modified
> so could mean reselecting a template option which will be time consuming.
>
> I've migrated a number of apps to later versions of Clarion and all have
> had their own problems when migrating to C6 or later. Programmers all
> have different styles and the vast majority dont program defensively ie
> not trapping and handling errors. Clarion also attracts alot of non
> programmers becuase any amateur with half a brain cell can knock out
> something resembling a program so thats also worth bearing in mind when
> taking on other peoples work to convert.
>

Thanks for the advice. Our aim is to keep it in C5.5 - if we decide to
migrate, we will probably re-write the program using totally different
tools. It was never a good match for Clarion in the first place, but
the programmer who did the job convinced us that he could make a great
application quickly using Clarion. Without any experience of Clarion
ourselves, we took his word for it. My own choice for a tool would be
Python with wxPython toolkit.

> If you use MDI child windows the C6-C8 RTL uses the window API
> CreateMDIWindowA to build MDI child windows and MS suggest using
> CreateWindowEx as a more efficient way to create MDI child windows.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms644908%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#child_creation
>
>
> Contrary to what some like to put out, MDI has not been deprecated as
> one can see from this link
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms644908%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
> it was updated in Sept 2012 and this link is what a deprecated API or in
> this case deprecated structures looks like.
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671209%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
>

The program doesn't use MDI at the moment, and I don't see it coming in
the future for this particular application.

>
> I mention this becuase there is a rumour circulating the MDI has been
> deprecated but there is nothing official on their website and I have
> asked MS employees who would be in the know.

MS don't really know themselves where they are going at the moment. On
the one hand, they seem to want developers to target "Metro" because
they hope that if people learn to put up with a totally insane gui on
desktops, they will be less reluctant to buy telephones and pads with
the same gui. But on the other hand, they know that Metro is useless
for desktops and desktop applications, and want people to keep
developing "normal" windows applications so that users don't move to
Linux or Macs.

For the most part, I don't give a *beep* what MS think or say in this
regard. The application here is designed to run as the only program on
the machines in question, so we use XP on these systems. And if we do
end up re-writing it, it will be done with cross-platform tools so that
the dedicated systems can run Linux instead.

>
> In the C7/C8 runtime, sleep delays were added to the start of each new
> thread in a bid to help minimise the multiple MDI min/max/close buttons
> from appearing, users have reported C7 apps were slower than C6, and I
> believe in C8 MDI toolbar support was dropped as well to also help
> minimise the mdi button problem but the MDI API call hasnt been changed
> as at the latest build in C8 in July 2012, in favour of what MS recommends.
>
> Its also worth noting that when a MDI child window sometimes dissappears
> off screen and in the ini file its got the XY coords -2147023728 this
> value is a fixed value passed by the runtime to the window api
> CreateMDIWindowA when its called. Ideally the RTL would look for any
> reg/ini window position before creating the window but it doesnt and
> thats not the only critisicm I have the RTL in its C8 version, but I
> dont run the company!
>
> C6 isnt as stable on Vista/W7 32 as C6 is on XP but its very solid on
> XP, although your biggest risk is having too many controls on a
> window/report or embed code which goes beyond the 16bit register limits.
>

It's not a very big program, so it should be no problems here. (I
remember having to deal with an over-grown Visual Basic 3 program that
had trouble with the 16-bit limits on controls - users had to be careful
not to open too many windows at a time. That got migrated to Python,
solving those problems.)

> If you run C6 in seperate memory and make the template registry readonly
> you can also run multiple instances of Clarion all at the same time.
>

That won't be a problem here.

> You could buy C8 and use the C55 compiler and runtime in the new IDE but
> people report variable IDE stability issues, if you dont change the IDE
> layouts and config too much you get less stability issues, but if you
> want to undock taskbars and make the IDE more of your own then things
> become alittle disconnected.
>

I am really hoping to be able to run a pure C55 installation. I still
haven't found a way to do so legally. I think I will be able to get a
copy of the installation CDs, but not the license, from the original
developer. If I buy a full C8 license can I install C55 instead?

> Just a few points which could affect you at this moment from someone who
> has used it since the dos CPD 2.1 days but is now also porting their
> apps to other languages to take advantage of what is missing from Clarion.
>
>

Out of curiosity, what are you using instead?

mvh.,

David

[leo...@iesltd.com]

Hi,

I think C8 install allows you to run any Clarion edition starting with C5

Leonid Chudakov
chud...@klarisoft.com

[Richard Rose]

David Brown expressed precisely :

> MS don't really know themselves where they are going at the moment.

Yes I saw MS have "banned" developers from using the word Metro.

> On the
> one hand, they seem to want developers to target "Metro" because they hope
> that if people learn to put up with a totally insane gui on desktops, they
> will be less reluctant to buy telephones and pads with the same gui. But on
> the other hand, they know that Metro is useless for desktops and desktop
> applications, and want people to keep developing "normal" windows
> applications so that users don't move to Linux or Macs.

I've got customers using macs for desktop and linux variations for
their server functionality simply becuase its more reliable, less
bloated & certinaly the linux servers are ï¿œthousands cheaper by a long
shot, I've even seen a LAMP server running on the ￜ25 RaspberryPi and
the UK Govt has announced its moving over to open source & linux to
reduce their costs and improve security as MS havent really delivered.
Some parts of the UK Govt (Whitehall) are still having to use IE6 can
you believe it!

> For the most part, I don't give a *beep* what MS think or say in this regard.

My sentiments exactly or Gartner for that matter.

> I am really hoping to be able to run a pure C55 installation. I still
> haven't found a way to do so legally. I think I will be able to get a copy
> of the installation CDs, but not the license, from the original developer.
> If I buy a full C8 license can I install C55 instead?

I think you best bet is to buy a copy of Clarion 8 as you should be
able to build C55 apps in it but check with sales first. Like IE, the
engines for each version of clarion have been built into the IDE but I
dont know how far back they go.

>Out of curiosity, what are you using instead?

www.DevRoadmaps.com, would be more informative IMO as my customers
needs are different to most other companies but I use a variety of
tools & languages to do different things as I'm moving into AI &
automation now as I see that as the future.

Good Luck!

[Richard Rose]

> I think you best bet is to buy a copy of Clarion 8 as you should be able to
> build C55 apps in it but check with sales first. Like IE, the engines for
> each version of clarion have been built into the IDE but I dont know how far
> back they go.

Judging by a post from SV support it looks like you still need to get
your hands on C55 before you can use C8 to work on your C55 app.

I quote: "C5.5 and C6 can be installed on Win 7 64 (they just cannot be
run there). Once they are installed, when you subsequently install C8
it will detect them and create the proper configurations in the
versions list. Then you can run C8 in C5.5 or C6 mode if you like.
The APP and DCT files will be converted to the proper format for the C8
AppGen, but you will not need to run in a 32 bit VM in order to create
C5.5 or C6 based programs."

But as C6 and C55 are 16bit apps, the code generation will be at least
16bit although the compiler could do 16bit and 32bit back in C55 at
least but considering 16bit apps cant run on a 64bit OS, maybe its just
being used to configure the C8 IDE, and/or they have ported the 16bit
code base with minimum changes to make it run in a 64/32bit
environment.

Either way best to email SV and be specific about your situation and
requirements.

[David Brown]

I have already tried contacting Soft Velocity - but you have given me a
lot more useful information than they did!

It looks like buying a C8 license, installing C5.5 then installing C8 is
the way to go. I would be running the IDE inside a virtual machine
anyway, and the client machines run 32-bit XP, so there is no problem
there with 16-bit apps if it turns out to be easier.

Thank you for your helpful advice.

David

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:38:34 +0200, David Brown wrote:

> On 18/09/12 14:42, Richard Rose wrote:
>>> I think you best bet is to buy a copy of Clarion 8 as you should be
>>> able to build C55 apps in it but check with sales first. Like IE, the
>>> engines for each version of clarion have been built into the IDE but I
>>> dont know how far back they go.

> It looks like buying a C8 license, installing C5.5 then installing C8 is
> the way to go. I would be running the IDE inside a virtual machine
> anyway, and the client machines run 32-bit XP, so there is no problem
> there with 16-bit apps if it turns out to be easier.

David,

I would give this warning about Clarion 8 - yes, you can use the Clarion 8
IDE, and an install of C5.5 and continue to do work (it actually converts
the C5.5 app to a different format to work with the C8 IDE, but
essentially, it's still a C5.5 app - still ship C5.5 dlls).

BUT, this is the warning - Clarion 8 IDE for many SEASONED Clarion
developers has turned out to be a real challenge - YES, many are productive
AND using C8 regularly -

but if you would read the MANY messages on the SoftVelocity newsgroups
about working with C8 IDE - it's not for the faint hearted - or others who
are not Clarion savvy or willing to expend more time to stay in the Clarion
dev world.

Your thoughts about a different dev environment for the project are
probably more on cue - but you can always buy a C8 license and try...

With your C5.5 license, you SHOULD be able to access the softVelocity
newsgroups - you can email them with your license details and make sure you
have access - I'd HIGHLY suggest - viewing their newsgroups to more
accurately access the state of the Clarion 8 IDE and likely problems you'll
encounter.

David

>
> Thank you for your helpful advice.
>
> David

[David Brown]

I don't have a license for C5.5, or any Clarion version. If I could
simply get a license for C5.5, I'd be happy - I expect I can borrow a
copy of the installation CDs from the original developer of this
project. My thoughts about buying a C8 license are not because I want
C8, or any other features of Clarion since C5.5 - but just because I
want to find a legal way to modify and compile the existing C5.5 project.

Based on your comments here, it's possible that I would be better off
buying a licence for an older version of Clarion (SV are willing to sell
versions older than C8, but not as old as C5.5) rather than C8, and
using it along with C5.5. Would that be right?

It doesn't really matter if C8 is a challenge for experienced Clarion
developers, in that I have no experience at all with Clarion (but I have
lots of experience with other programming language and tools).

mvh.,

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

David,

You would need to check with SoftVelocity, but to use Clarion 8 IDE for
C5.5 or C6.x projects requires BOTH C8 and C5.5 or C6.x licenses.

Think about it - when you buy a C8 license, they are not selling you
previous Clarion IDE licenses - only C8 (unless they have some kind of
combo deal I am not aware of).

>If I could
> simply get a license for C5.5, I'd be happy - I expect I can borrow a
> copy of the installation CDs from the original developer of this
> project. My thoughts about buying a C8 license are not because I want
> C8, or any other features of Clarion since C5.5 - but just because I
> want to find a legal way to modify and compile the existing C5.5 project.
>
> Based on your comments here, it's possible that I would be better off
> buying a licence for an older version of Clarion (SV are willing to sell
> versions older than C8, but not as old as C5.5) rather than C8, and
> using it along with C5.5. Would that be right?

A number of developers still use C5.5 for projects or maintenance on
projects - but if you'd ask Clarion developers in general - Clarion C6.3x
would be the preferred Clarion 16 bit IDE - probably C6.3 - Build 9053 -
9059.

Also, Clarion 5.5 was released in 2000.

Clarion History - Clarion Magazine
http://www.clarionmag.com/cmag/historyofclarion.html

Are you using Third Party Add-on (templates) for C5.5?

Even today, many Clarion Third Party Add-0n companies release their
products to support C6, C7, and C8 - many have dropped C5.5 and before
support.

Then there is a general consideration of ABC or Legacy support.

In 1997 - C4 - Clarion introduced the ABC class library and template chain.
And the previous class libary and template chain became known as Legacy.

>
> It doesn't really matter if C8 is a challenge for experienced Clarion
> developers, in that I have no experience at all with Clarion (but I have
> lots of experience with other programming language and tools).

If I had to make one generalization on C8 IDE use - experienced Clarion
developers put up with a number of difficulties because they have a TON of
experience and work tied up in Clarion work over the years, and it provides
them a steady income -

BUT IMHO, even experienced programmers coming from other programming tools
- MIGHT find learning Clarion AND working through the idosyncracies of the
C8 IDE more challenging that what they might want to handle - MIGHT?

However, having said that - you can always buy C8 and give it a go!

C6.3x is a SOLID, but fading older IDE - even some Clarion Third Party
Add-on companies who produce VERY useful C8 tools, work almost exclusively
with C6.3x for their clients.

I am not trying to discourage you about Clarion C8, just keeping it
realistic - you REALLY need to get access to the SoftVelocity newsgroups -
there are a number of extremely helpful developers willing to help - great
support group!

PLUS buy a subscription (if you start actively developing in Clarion) from
this company.

https://www.devroadmaps.com/display/home/DevRoadmaps+Home

"We're CoveComm Inc, based in Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada. We've been
publishing Clarion Magazine, the web's No 1 resource for Clarion
developers, since 1999. With this site we're continuing to publish about
Clarion, we're adding more .NET content, and we're extending our coverage
to PC Soft's WinDev (including WinDev Mobile and WebDev)."

http://www.clarionlive.com/

is another excellent resource - freely available - just sign up -

John Hickey and Arnold Young started this site, and now have additional
volunteer help holding Live Webinars presenting mostly Clarion programming,
but also webinars of interest to any developer. Videos are recorded for
later downloading.

Encourager Software Developer Tips
MFG - Encourager Software
http://www.encouragersoftware.com/software-developers.html

My company has developed a tutorial in CHM format for developers in general
and does have some specific Clarion help topics as well that would be of
interest to you.

David

>
> mvh.,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your helpful advice.
>>>
>>> David
>>
>>

[Carl Sumner]

Just because you buy Clarion 8, does not mean you have to install it if you don't want to. But if you buy -something- then they are much happier to talk to you.

Don't think of it as paying for the disk, think of it as paying for the support.

There are many people still using Clarion 5.5, so even if SV doesnt talk about it, the forum people do. There are even templates to add some of the newer stuff, like manifests, to it.

HTH,

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

Carl,

Are you suggesting - you have to pay USD $1000 for a C8 core product so you
can get access to the SV forums because only serial numbers from Clarion
IDE products are used to grant access to SV newsgroups?

Sure sounds like a sure way to CREATE - LESS interest in a company - and
prevent future sales.

UGH!

David

>
> HTH,

[Hans Kjaergaard]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 23:40:19 -0400, David Troxell - Encourager
Software <C3P_Remove_@_Me_encouragersoftware.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT), Carl Sumner wrote:
>
>> Just because you buy Clarion 8, does not mean you have to install it if
>> you don't want to. But if you buy -something- then they are much happier
>> to talk to you.
>>
>> Don't think of it as paying for the disk, think of it as paying for the support.
>>
>> There are many people still using Clarion 5.5, so even if SV doesnt talk about it,
>> the forum people do. There are even templates to add some of the newer stuff,
>> like manifests, to it.
>
>Carl,
>
>Are you suggesting - you have to pay USD $1000 for a C8 core product so you
>can get access to the SV forums because only serial numbers from Clarion
>IDE products are used to grant access to SV newsgroups?
>
>Sure sounds like a sure way to CREATE - LESS interest in a company - and
>prevent future sales.
>
>UGH!

Agree with you David, but the fact is that SV forum is great, and the
only way to enter is with a Clarion product seriel number (higer than
5.5?).
One may be able to get an used/old Clarion Pproduct on the "open/free"
marked.

I try to talk to them for a long time to get access to the forum, but
NO WAY without Clarion seriel number, after a long time searching I
manage to find our Clarion Seriel number, so my problem is over.


/Hans

[David Brown]

On 20/10/12 05:40, David Troxell - Encourager Software wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT), Carl Sumner wrote:
>
>> Just because you buy Clarion 8, does not mean you have to install it if
>> you don't want to. But if you buy -something- then they are much happier
>> to talk to you.
>>
>> Don't think of it as paying for the disk, think of it as paying for the support.
>>
>> There are many people still using Clarion 5.5, so even if SV doesnt talk about it,
>> the forum people do. There are even templates to add some of the newer stuff,
>> like manifests, to it.
>
> Carl,
>
> Are you suggesting - you have to pay USD $1000 for a C8 core product so you
> can get access to the SV forums because only serial numbers from Clarion
> IDE products are used to grant access to SV newsgroups?
>
> Sure sounds like a sure way to CREATE - LESS interest in a company - and
> prevent future sales.
>
> UGH!
>
> David
>

I can certainly say that SV's attitude in refusing to help me buy a
legal copy of C5.5, along with their requirement of buying a new licence
before I can access their forums to talk about it, make me even more
inclined to re-write the whole thing in a mainstream development
environment.

My greatest thanks and respect go to the people in this newsgroup who
have given me helpful advice. But if SV want Clarion to live in its own
closed little world that won't let strangers in, then they will have to
live there without my custom.

Again, thanks to all in this newsgroup.

mvh.,

David

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 16:17:08 +0200, David Brown wrote:

> I can certainly say that SV's attitude in refusing to help me buy a
> legal copy of C5.5, along with their requirement of buying a new licence
> before I can access their forums to talk about it, make me even more
> inclined to re-write the whole thing in a mainstream development
> environment.

David,

Clarion 5.5 was released August 2000 - over twelve years ago - I could not
blame any company for not selling a flagship programming tool with that
kind of release date.

http://www.clarionmag.com/cmag/historyofclarion.html

Clarion 6.3 - January 2006 release date - no company should be expected to
sell a flagship tool that dated as well.

BUT, buying a Clarion 6.3 license from someone should be easier than
finding a Clarion 5.5, and there are many advantages - stated previously -
but

> re-write the whole thing in a mainstream development environment.

sounds like your best option.

>
> My greatest thanks and respect go to the people in this newsgroup who
> have given me helpful advice. But if SV want Clarion to live in its own
> closed little world that won't let strangers in, then they will have to
> live there without my custom.

Many have stated openly in the newsgroups - their unhappiness about the
marketing strategies over the years - little has changed.

We wish you well!

David

>
> Again, thanks to all in this newsgroup.
>
> mvh.,
>
> David

> On 20/10/12 05:40, David Troxell - Encourager Software wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT), Carl Sumner wrote:
>>
>>> Just because you buy Clarion 8, does not mean you have to install it if
>>> you don't want to. But if you buy -something- then they are much happier
>>> to talk to you.
>>>
>>> Don't think of it as paying for the disk, think of it as paying for the support.
>>>
>>> There are many people still using Clarion 5.5, so even if SV doesnt talk about it,
>>> the forum people do. There are even templates to add some of the newer stuff,
>>> like manifests, to it.
>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> Are you suggesting - you have to pay USD $1000 for a C8 core product so you
>> can get access to the SV forums because only serial numbers from Clarion
>> IDE products are used to grant access to SV newsgroups?
>>
>> Sure sounds like a sure way to CREATE - LESS interest in a company - and
>> prevent future sales.
>>
>> UGH!
>>
>> David
>>
>

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 02:08:50 -0400, David Troxell - Encourager Software
wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 16:17:08 +0200, David Brown wrote:
>
>> I can certainly say that SV's attitude in refusing to help me buy a
>> legal copy of C5.5, along with their requirement of buying a new licence

David,

I may have misinterpreted your comments - if this is the case, sorry...

Requirement to buy a new license! Does this mean C8? If so, does this imply
you could not buy C5.5 from someone and have the license transferred?

David Troxell

[David Brown]

On 22/10/12 14:12, David Troxell - Encourager Software wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 02:08:50 -0400, David Troxell - Encourager Software
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 16:17:08 +0200, David Brown wrote:
>>
>>> I can certainly say that SV's attitude in refusing to help me buy a
>>> legal copy of C5.5, along with their requirement of buying a new licence
>
> David,
>
> I may have misinterpreted your comments - if this is the case, sorry...
>
> Requirement to buy a new license! Does this mean C8? If so, does this imply
> you could not buy C5.5 from someone and have the license transferred?
>

I don't know if I can legally buy a second-hand copy of C5.5. All I
know is that I need a license of some sort to be able to access the
newsgroups and forums where most Clarion developers hang out - the very
place where I would be best asking for second-hand C5.5 licences!

> David Troxell
>
>>> before I can access their forums to talk about it, make me even more
>>> inclined to re-write the whole thing in a mainstream development
>>> environment.
>>
>> David,
>>
>> Clarion 5.5 was released August 2000 - over twelve years ago - I could not
>> blame any company for not selling a flagship programming tool with that
>> kind of release date.
>>

Actually, I /do/ expect them to be able to sell me a copy of C5.5. I
expect a serious development tool company to be able to provide copies
of older tools - at least as far back as when installers could be stored
on harddisks and manuals were pdf or chm files. I don't expect
packaging, CDs, printed manuals, etc. I don't expect any support. I
expect to have to pay at least the cost of a modern licence (C8 in this
case), perhaps more to cover the extra effort. And then I expect to be
get an ftp link and download the installer.

I work mainly with embedded development systems. I have occasional need
for tools that are quite a bit older than this for maintenance on old
systems. And suppliers of professional commercial embedded development
tools would normally be able to give copies of tools that old. (I also
use a lot of open source tools, and they also keep archives going back
to the dark ages.) On an occasion when I was discussing tools for an
older microcontroller on a public newsgroup, a supplier of such
commercial tools joined in to say that he would be able to provide these
ten year old tools if needed.

So yes, I would hope SV could supply me with a copy of C5.5. Failing
that, I would definitely expect a clear statement telling me that I
could buy a licence second-hand from another user, or that if I could
get a copy of the C5.5 CD then I could use it with a new C8 licence. I
asked explicitly about this, but got nothing beyond "We are no longer
selling or shipping C5.5".

David

[David Troxell - Encourager Software]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 23:30:39 +0200, David Brown wrote:

> On 22/10/12 14:12, David Troxell - Encourager Software wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 02:08:50 -0400, David Troxell - Encourager Software
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 16:17:08 +0200, David Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can certainly say that SV's attitude in refusing to help me buy a
>>>> legal copy of C5.5, along with their requirement of buying a new licence
>>
>> David,
>>
>> I may have misinterpreted your comments - if this is the case, sorry...
>>
>> Requirement to buy a new license! Does this mean C8? If so, does this imply
>> you could not buy C5.5 from someone and have the license transferred?
>>
>
> I don't know if I can legally buy a second-hand copy of C5.5. All I
> know is that I need a license of some sort to be able to access the
> newsgroups and forums where most Clarion developers hang out - the very
> place where I would be best asking for second-hand C5.5 licences!

David,

YES, they have put you in a position of "rock and a hard place".

Hans Kjaergaard stated earlier:

> Agree with you David, but the fact is that SV forum is great, and the
> only way to enter is with a Clarion product seriel number (higer than
> 5.5?).

OK, that means Clarion 6 and you can't buy Clarion 6 directly from SV, so
unless SV will allow a transfer of license from C6 you bought from someone
else, you have to buy C8 to get into the newsgroups.

JUST to get some help for C5.5

Well, Clarion developer population has been declining for years, and this
is just one of the reasons why...

It's too bad, because the Clarion developers that DO exist - mostly agree
SV newsgroups AND all sorts of voluntary support from the developers - is a
GREAT place to get information.

BTW, VERY few Clarion developers read the public USENET version of
comp.lang.clarion

David Troxell

[* Nesko *]

Hi David,
I am distributor for Clarion long time. I had some old Clarion version
in my stock, but not sure Clarion 5.5, I am sure I have Clarion 5 EE
unopened box. I suppose you can easy legal upgrade to C55. I should
regulate it with SV.
Regards,

Nebojsa

>
> Actually, I /do/ expect them to be able to sell me a copy of C5.5. I
> expect a serious development tool company to be able to provide copies
> of older tools - at least as far back as when installers could be stored
> on harddisks and manuals were pdf or chm files. I don't expect
> packaging, CDs, printed manuals, etc. I don't expect any support. I
> expect to have to pay at least the cost of a modern licence (C8 in this
> case), perhaps more to cover the extra effort. And then I expect to be
> get an ftp link and download the installer.
>
> I work mainly with embedded development systems. I have occasional need
> for tools that are quite a bit older than this for maintenance on old
> systems. And suppliers of professional commercial embedded development
> tools would normally be able to give copies of tools that old. (I also
> use a lot of open source tools, and they also keep archives going back
> to the dark ages.) On an occasion when I was discussing tools for an
> older microcontroller on a public newsgroup, a supplier of such
> commercial tools joined in to say that he would be able to provide these
> ten year old tools if needed.
>
> So yes, I would hope SV could supply me with a copy of C5.5. Failing
> that, I would definitely expect a clear statement telling me that I
> could buy a licence second-hand from another user, or that if I could
> get a copy of the C5.5 CD then I could use it with a new C8 licence. I
> asked explicitly about this, but got nothing beyond "We are no longer
> selling or shipping C5.5".
>
> David
>
>

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