Why are the Topspeed ODBC drivers not Free???
Colin Brown
Hi to those at Topspeed, (and everyone else)
I have been a Clarion user for a long time now from Clarion for DOS 2.0
days. I've been through the thick and the thin period, (Clarion 3 being
the thin period) and supported clarion all the way. I still think there
isn't a product to touch it on the market yet. (I wish it a lot more
visible than it is now but that's another topic for a later date)
Some of the problems I've been experiencing, and I'm sure others have too,
is that being in a large corporation (18,000 employees of which 1,500 are
IT related people) they have standardised on everything microsoft etc
(they've even looked at and entertained Delphi for a while), but not
Clarion, in spite of the major strides Topspeed have made since "3.0".
Lack off ODBC compatability being citied as one of many reasons. I have
developed many Clarion applications, some of which I've even managed to get
installed at my work, but the lack of accessability to the topspeed files
using their Reportwriters is killing their usefullness. (Why should they
buy another Reportwriter when they already have on of the corporation's
compliant ones?)
Now that you have an ODBC driver for the Topspeed driver I was hoping that
like all the other packages out there that the ODBC driver would have been
supplied free. BUT no not in this case. WHY??
At least make the Read Only driver free, so as to allow us developers to
write Clarion apps and let the users use their reportwriters. This way we
would be able to get work more easily having put the ODBC issue to bed.
Any comments Topspeed????
Colin Brown
cbr...@oldmutual.com
Cape Town, South Africa
Vince D. Kimball
"Colin Brown" <cbr...@oldmutual.com> wrote:
>Now that you have an ODBC driver for the Topspeed driver I was hoping that
>like all the other packages out there that the ODBC driver would have been
>supplied free. BUT no not in this case. WHY??
I'm not with TopSpeed, but I'm advised that other companies' ODBC
drivers are not free either. Some come with Microsoft Office, and
Microsoft sells some. Which ones have you seen that are free?
Geir Hansen
There are "free" ODBC drivers for some databases, but that's normally
databases where you have to pay a license for each user that access the
database. In other words, some ODBC drivers are free to get, but you have
to pay to use them. The TP ODBC driver is not free to get, but the usage is
free. Some use Microsoft software as an example of free stuff. First you
have to buy Office or some other product to get the "free" ODBC driver.
Afterwards you must pay a lisence fee to access the SQL backend database.
You actually pay twice for the "free" ODBC driver. Don't be fooled to
believe that software makers are charity organizations. They need to get
paid for their products and services some way or the other to servive.
Geir Hansen
Nordic Innovator AS
ge...@nordic-innovator.no
PS.
I would have liked to see a SINGLE user license avilable for the TP ODBC
driver though.
Vince D. Kimball
"Colin Brown" <cbr...@oldmutual.com> wrote:
>I not advocating that Topspeed is big enough to give away
>Clarion, just the ODBC driver.
Topspeed's position is (I believe) that they can't afford to give away
the ODBC driver, due to the amount of developer resources that it took
to create it.
>One of the many features of Clarion has been the lack of Royalties
>associated with distributing applications etc (plus the purchase price),
>making the costs of developing applications very transparent indeed. Let's
>continue in that vein.
There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
create.
Colin Brown
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
<01bca6a5$2d382480$6541...@geirhan.online.no>...
> There are "free" ODBC drivers for some databases, but that's normally
> databases where you have to pay a license for each user that access the
> database. In other words, some ODBC drivers are free to get, but you have
> to pay to use them. The TP ODBC driver is not free to get, but the usage
is
> free. Some use Microsoft software as an example of free stuff. First you
> have to buy Office or some other product to get the "free" ODBC driver.
> Afterwards you must pay a lisence fee to access the SQL backend database.
One of the points that I'm trying to make here is Clarion is not Microsoft
or even as large as Microsoft (in terms of market share of it's developer
products) and if We the developers are fighting (not in all instances but
definitely most) to be allowed to use the Best Tool for the job (CLARION)
then having a free "Read-Only" ODBC driver will help a lot.
How did Microsoft manage to capture so much of the Internet Browser market
when it was dominated by Netscape? - By distributing Internet Explorer
for FREE!!! I not advocating that Topspeed is big enough to give away
Clarion, just the ODBC driver.
One of the many features of Clarion has been the lack of Royalties
associated with distributing applications etc (plus the purchase price),
making the costs of developing applications very transparent indeed. Let's
continue in that vein.
Colin Brown
Cape Town, South Africa
cbr...@oldmutual.com
Mick_G
Geir:
I have a question, are you comparing the *.tps file format to MSSQL, an
entire software system? I think if some of the hyperbola calms down you
will see there is a difference. To my knowledge if you are a developer
wanting to access an Access database, there is no charge. I believe you can
down load it from MS web site for free. I believe that is the exact reason,
Access is getting to be the department database. People can set it up
easily, and then people can create all kinds of reports with their report
writers. I love CW, can't see myself jumping ship, but this ODBC issue is
creating problems for me. I would love to simplify my reports, use CR
through the app, and distribute the ODBC driver along with my app. The
problem is I'm planning on doing this as a try before you buy situation.
Also I don't want to get into user limits. So how do I set all of this up?
Can't, for me it creates a problem, where before the motto at TopSpeed has
been no run time fees. Well if you want ODBC, we now have run times. I
agree with the original poster, the read only should either be free or a
one time fee for developers. I can definitely see TopSpeed wanting to
charge per seat for the r/w ODBC driver, can't have people willy nilly
jumping ship to other development packages. Just an opinion.
Mick
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
<01bca6a5$2d382480$6541...@geirhan.online.no>...
> There are "free" ODBC drivers for some databases, but that's normally
> databases where you have to pay a license for each user that access the
> database. In other words, some ODBC drivers are free to get, but you have
> to pay to use them. The TP ODBC driver is not free to get, but the usage
is
> free. Some use Microsoft software as an example of free stuff. First you
> have to buy Office or some other product to get the "free" ODBC driver.
> Afterwards you must pay a lisence fee to access the SQL backend database.
Mick_G
Geir:
Nope, they at least during the free beta had two drivers, one read/write,
the other read only. I never got around to trying out the read only. I
think it would be useful for all of us, and as I said make it a one shot
price.
Mick
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
<01bca7e6$be02c320$6302...@geirhan.online.no>...
> Of cource you can't compare the TP data files to a SQL engine if you talk
> about technology, but my point was that a lot of the so called free
drivers
> often are for databases that requires a license to access. Things are
> seldom totally free. Access ODBS drivers may be an exeption, I don't
know.
>
> Mick, you talk about a read only TP ODBC driver. I didn't know that
> existed. To my knowledge only a full read/write driver is available.
>
> Geir Hansen
> Nordic Innovator AS
> ge...@nordic-innovator.no
>
Mick_G
Geir:
Seems like we have settled into a good natured debate on this subject,
so... One thing that has been a concern for me lately, is I feel like a lot
of what goes on at TopSpeed and with the users of CW is "preaching to the
choir". I think if TopSpeed is going to have any real long term growth, it
has got to get new users, and especially Corporate users. I feel that many
times, everything turns on, how TopSpeed can get some money out of the
current users of the software, not develop a strategy of getting new users.
I wish I had a print out of all the money I've spent on Clarion products
over the years. I know that all software has upgrade costs involved in
ownership. Some of the products still are way below the capabilities of
other software, the report writer comes to mind. I've expressed my OPINION,
I want that to be clear, because we are the people who make TopSpeed
possible. I guarantee if enough people expressed their opinion, and did not
buy the ODBC drivers...... I think you can imagine the result.
Mick
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
<01bca7e5$523844e0$6302...@geirhan.online.no>...
> I wouldn't mind if the TP ODBC driver were free! It might even be a good
> marketing stunt (and perhaps overall profit generating) for TopSpeed to
> make them available for free. The fact that TopSpeed has chosen to make
it
> a product you have to buy, is somthing I accept though. As I've said
> bebore, a software maker must get paid for their products one way or
> another, either directly or indirectly. TopSpeed has in this case chosen
to
> charge directly for the product, and even if some may think that is a bad
> choice, I think we must accept that what's best for TopSpeed is for
> TopSpeed to decide.
George Barwood
On 13 Aug 1997 15:46:11 GMT, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Nope, they at least during the free beta had two drivers, one read/write,
>the other read only. I never got around to trying out the read only.
Neither did anyone else try the read-only driver during the Beta,
which was a pity, since it had/has a fairly serious bug!
A fixed version of the read-only driver will be made available in due
course (at present we are waiting to see if any other serious bugs
come to light ).
The idea of the read-only driver is that in many situations it is
undesirable for "users" to be able to update tables from e.g. Access.
In C4 there is a SEND command which can be used to set a read-only
attribute on individual tables, to give finer control.
George
Kurt Pawlikowski
Geir,
I was under the impression that using ODBC drivers on a network
could improve performance because the server dose some of the work (not
a good as SQL, but better than direct - probably similar to Btrieve).
Perhaps I am mistaken, but that was my impression.
kurtt
Geir Hansen wrote:
> ....
> Martin, why would you use a TP ODBC driver in your products? From a
> Clarion
> application the native TP driver would be the natural choice. The only
> use
> I can see for the TP ODBC driver is for other products to access a TP
> data
> file. If you develop applications with somthing else than Clarion
> (which
> means no need for a CW license) and want to access TP data files,
> isn't it
> fair that TopSpeed would like a peace of the cake?
....
>
>
> Geir Hansen
> Nordic Innovator AS
> ge...@nordic-innovator.no
>
> Martin Allen wrote:
> > >There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
>
> > >create.
> >
> > Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
Martin Allen
vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>Marti...@sprintmail.com (Martin Allen) wrote:
>>vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>>>There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
>>>create.
>
>>Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
>
>I'm confused I guess, but why would a CW app use the TPS ODBC driver
>when it could access the TPS files directly. It's only non-CW apps
>that need the TPS ODBC driver.
That is quite correct, but even CW application may have some parts made
with 3rd party tools such as Crystal Reports or Reportsmith.
Think about selling an application which has reports made with Crystal
Reports. You can not make an "off the shelve" applications utilizing TS
ODBC drivers unless you don't include a note in the package stating that:
"You will get the reports working by purchasing the TS ODBC driver directly
from Topspeed 1-800-TPS ODBC". Actually information like this must read on
the package not only inside. I would not buy a product like this. Would
you? As a customer I would prefer having all the necessary components in
the package.
Also... Think about making a contract with ABCXYZ Corp for distributing
your shrink wrapped applications to the end users and you would get paid
only when ABCXYZ Corp sells your product (terms like this are quite
common). For delivering 1000 applications YOU would have to buy 1000 ODBC
driver licenses before you even know are YOU going to get paid. Pretty
risky huh?
You know what I mean.
Best regards,
Martin
Martin Allen
vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
>create.
Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
I am not saying that TS ODBC drivers should be free, but driver set should
come with CW with unlimited right to distribute them *with our
applications* just like native Topspeed driver. I would not mind paying
extra in CW price for this to cover their development costs. At least
developers should get the driver set with CW for development and evaluating
purposes even without the right to give it away. I would not mind simple
one time fee either and I would go for it most likely.
I hated the TS ODBC per seat licensing since I heard about it. I would
love to use TS ODBC drivers in my projects, but since TS per seat policy
makes it quite impossible for me I am not going to write a single software
using TS ODBC until:
- I can get drivers with Clarion with right to distribute them freely with
my applications.
* OR *
- I can purchase ODBC drivers set with one time fee with right to
distribute them freely with my applications.
* OR *
- Some customer requires ODBC support and they pay the drivers.
Sorry, but I am not going to buy any drivers for customers I don't already
have nor 5-pack of drivers when I need only one set. If 5-pack is the only
way to experiment with the drivers, I'll pass. Thank you.
I have spoken and opinions are mine. As always.
Martin ;)
PS. I have nothing against the driver itself. I tried the beta and it was
promising.
Vince D. Kimball
"Geir Hansen" <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote:
>Mick, you talk about a read only TP ODBC driver. I didn't know that
>existed. To my knowledge only a full read/write driver is available.
I'm told the package includes 16-bit read-only, 16-bit read/write,
32-bit read-only, and 32-bit read/write ODBC drivers for TPS files.
Vince D. Kimball
Marti...@sprintmail.com (Martin Allen) wrote:
>vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>>There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
>>create.
>Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
I'm confused I guess, but why would a CW app use the TPS ODBC driver
Mick_G
Geir:
I know it looks like I'm singling you out, I'm not. One thing I think you
can think about, why not charge a run time license for the tps format?
Geir Hansen
I wouldn't mind if the TP ODBC driver were free! It might even be a good
marketing stunt (and perhaps overall profit generating) for TopSpeed to
make them available for free. The fact that TopSpeed has chosen to make it
bebore, a software maker must get paid for their products one way or
another, either directly or indirectly. TopSpeed has in this case chosen to
charge directly for the product, and even if some may think that is a bad
choice, I think we must accept that what's best for TopSpeed is for
TopSpeed to decide.
I also wouldn't mind if a developer license was included in the CW package.
If that would mean a little increase in the price for CW, thats OK with me.
At least you would only have distribution cost for one product instead of
two.
As I've also said before, I wouldn't mind if there was a single TP ODBC
driver license (and/or a developer license) available. An evaluation
license we could distribute freely to our customers, would also be highly
appreciated.
Martin, why would you use a TP ODBC driver in your products? From a Clarion
application the native TP driver would be the natural choice. The only use
I can see for the TP ODBC driver is for other products to access a TP data
file. If you develop applications with somthing else than Clarion (which
means no need for a CW license) and want to access TP data files, isn't it
fair that TopSpeed would like a peace of the cake? I agree that
distributing an ODBC driver along with your CW applications, would add
value to your product. Evaluation copies and/or single user licenses, would
be nice for this purpose.
Geir Hansen
Nordic Innovator AS
ge...@nordic-innovator.no
Geir Hansen
Of cource you can't compare the TP data files to a SQL engine if you talk
about technology, but my point was that a lot of the so called free drivers
often are for databases that requires a license to access. Things are
seldom totally free. Access ODBS drivers may be an exeption, I don't know.
Mick, you talk about a read only TP ODBC driver. I didn't know that
existed. To my knowledge only a full read/write driver is available.
Geir Hansen
Nordic Innovator AS
ge...@nordic-innovator.no
Mick_G wrote:
Martin Allen
"Joe van Niekerk" <j...@topspeed.co.za> wrote:
>I have discussed this with Kendall G. at TopSpeed and the marketing team
>were going to discuss the possibility of including a single user licence as
>part of the professional edition for C4 (like the Test version of CWIC).
Way to go! That would be excellent!
Best regards,
Martin
Scott Ferrett
In article <33f63bcf....@w3.uccb.ns.ca>, Martin Allen wrote:
> Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
>
Why would you create a Clarion program that accesses TopSpeed files via
ODBC?
SuRF Down Under
(TopSpeed R&D)
Mick_G
Colin:
My sentiments exactly. TopSpeed should be more concerned about universal
access, I.E. the read only for no charge, than trying to get one more sale
from it's installed base. I think they will find it opens an awful lot of
doors in the corporate world. I know very well I was not considered for a
large contract for this very reason.
Mick
Colin Brown <cbr...@oldmutual.com> wrote in article
<01bca8b0$dde4c880$d66d...@colin-brown.intranet>...
>
>
> Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
> <01bca7e5$523844e0$6302...@geirhan.online.no>...
> > I wouldn't mind if the TP ODBC driver were free! It might even be a
good
> > marketing stunt (and perhaps overall profit generating) for TopSpeed to
> > make them available for free. The fact that TopSpeed has chosen to make
> it
> > a product you have to buy, is somthing I accept though.I think we must
> accept > > that what's best for TopSpeed is for> TopSpeed to decide.
>
> But if enough of us spoke up it might get them to change their mind.
After
> all we are the reason Topspeed "exists" (because we buy, upgrade etc, etc
> and continue to develop in Clarion) If we all just sat down and accepted
> the status quo then I'd hate to think where we'd all be now! (Slavery
> maybe?! but I digress). Follow the flow in the next point.
>
> > Martin, why would you use a TP ODBC driver in your products? From a
> Clarion
> > application the native TP driver would be the natural choice. The only
> use
> > I can see for the TP ODBC driver is for other products to access a TP
> data
> > file. If you develop applications with somthing else than Clarion
(which
> > means no need for a CW license) and want to access TP data files, isn't
> it
> > fair that TopSpeed would like a peace of the cake?
>
> The original point I was making here was:- I'm still developing
> "Applications" with clarion using the Topspeed driver. (so far so good,
no
> problem here) My users want access to the data for querying and extra
> reports etc ( Not an unreasonable request) BUT the corporation already
have
> a defined set of Query Tools (that all use ODBC note!!) and DO NOT want
to
> have to buy another one (Training and all that).
>
> This then brings us to the ISSUE at hand. The "Application", which has
all
> the great functionality etc, has to be revisited and decide whether to
> install it after all !!!!!!??? See my problem ??
>
> BUT if the "Read Only" ODBC driver was freely available - No Problem.
>
> Read Only gets rid of my problem, stops people from developing
applications
> that update the database, hence keeping me in work (using Clarion) and
> helps me to try and convert more people in my corporation to Clarion due
to
> the speed with which I develop verus their productivity levels. etc etc
> etc.
>
> I could go on here but I would really like to hear more from everyone
else
> out there. (Please)
>
> PS - That includes Topspeed who I hope are following this.
Joe van Niekerk
Hi Geir,
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
<01bca6a5$2d382480$6541...@geirhan.online.no>...
> I would have liked to see a SINGLE user license avilable for the TP ODBC
> driver though.
I have discussed this with Kendall G. at TopSpeed and the marketing team
were going to discuss the possibility of including a single user licence as
part of the professional edition for C4 (like the Test version of CWIC).
Hopefully we will see some action in the future...
Regards
--
joe van niekerk
[TopSpeed South Africa]
Colin Brown
Geir Hansen <ge...@nordic-innovator.no> wrote in article
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Scott,
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:52:16 +0100, Scott Ferrett
<su...@topspeed-dc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
...
>Why would you create a Clarion program that accesses TopSpeed files via
>ODBC?
A: You wouldn't.
Q: Then why was this TPS ODBC driver created?
A: To allow access from NON-Clarion applications to Topspeed files.
Q: What kind of applications are most likely to need
distribution of the ODBC driver?
A: Clarion applications as they are the only ones that can use
the Topspeed file format.
Q: Why would a CW application need this?
A: To allow access to TPS files from OTHER applications
Q: Does that mean anyone can access your datafiles from our
other programs?
A: Yes, if the other program can use ODBC
Open DataBase Connectivity means a free (read/write) or restricted
(read-only) flow of data between applications that supports this
standard. That is the whole idea and the advantage behind the concept
of ODBC. Who would be the best candidate to distribute an ODBC driver
for the Topspeed format? A Clarion developer.
Best regards,
Arnor Baldvinsson
Allerup Edb
Tel: +45 4675 7122
Fax: +45 4675 7144
Denmark
arno...@post3.tele.dk
http://www.icetips.com
UIN nr.: 2428601
Mick_G
Scott:
I think we agree to disagree.
Mick
Scott Ferrett <su...@topspeed-dc.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<VA.000000d...@surf.topspeed>...
> In article <01bca757$daa0dce0$0100007f@michaelc>, Mick_G wrote:
> > I would love to simplify my reports, use CR
> > through the app, and distribute the ODBC driver along with my app.
> >
>
> This is the same as using Report Writer to do the reports. In either
> case there is a per user cost.
Mick_G
Vince:
I find that my user base is getting more and more savvy about computers.
Many of my clients have MS Office on there new computers and have done some
experimenting with Access. These people like to be able to do reports that
are the way they like it. Makes the need for an ad-hock report creator,
mute.
Not only this I think TopSpeed is missing the boat somewhat by not having
the read only driver be free. I think it could be a great selling point to
get CW into the corporate main stream. I don't think with all the outlay in
report writers, and other tools to access all the data in their company,
I.E. legacy DBF apps etc. That they are going to just jump for joy buying a
relative obscure language, and then have to turn around and buy a copy of
the ODBC driver for ever computer in their system? Makes Access look better
and better for them. I personally think in the corporate world right now
Access is probably TopSpeed's big competitor.
Mick
Vince D. Kimball <vkim...@shore.net> wrote in article
<5ssh98$2...@fridge-nf0.shore.net>...
> Marti...@sprintmail.com (Martin Allen) wrote:
> >vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
> >>There still aren't royalties for developing an application that you
> >>create.
>
> >Yes there is if your application uses TS ODBC driver(s).
>
Scott Ferrett
Geir Hansen
One of the advantages with CW is the capability to use different database
drivers. It's your choice which one to use. You can even use more than one
database type in the same application. If you want to make a system where
you don't want other programs to easily read or alter your data, TPS data
files may be a good candidate. If one of the important system
specifications is exchange of data between different systems (and paying
for a TP ODBC driver to each user is unwanted), then choose another
database format! A SQL database would in many cases be the right/best
choice, at least for larger organizations. Many organiztions already have a
SQL database, and if they have, then you would probably be best off by
using it for your applications also. In the case of your lost contract,
I'll take the chance and say you probably lost it because you chose the
wrong database for your CW application. My wild guess is that the customer
wouldn't mind that you used CW as a development platform, but they probably
did mind about the database choice. The importance of picking the right
database platform must not be underestimated. Every customer may have
different needs and preferences, and the nature of different applications
vary. Using CW to develop the application, is usually a good choice for
most of the available databases.
As I've said before, I wouldn't mind free ODBC drivers, and I sincerely
hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but here it goes: This
discussion only helps dragging CW down to the category of "database toys".
If one constantly compares CW to the "database toys", it will only harm CW.
I think Topspeed themselves also in many situations goes in the same trap,
when focusing on the RAD capabilities and how easy it is to use CW for a
non-professional. I wish CW was more profiled as a professional development
LANGUAGE where the RAD capabilities are an added value. I've never had any
problems defending the use of CW instead of any of the "database toys" (I
won't say which products I put in that category). I've often had to
struggle though, when I need to convince customers that CW is a better
choice than Oracle Developer 2000, PowerBuilder and such alike. When I end
up in a situation like that, guess what I'm often confronted with; More
than once have I been asked: "How can CW be a professional language, when
it's so inexpensive?" Of course I won't like Topspeed to rise their prices,
but I think it would benefit us all if we could join forces to convince the
world that CW isn't a toy. I don't think having the status of the best
database toy in the world, would open many doors in the corporate world. I
also don't think making a big fuss about a few dollars for a ODBC driver
would help in that perspective.
Geir Hansen
Nordic Innovator AS
ge...@nordic-innovator.no
PS!:
Please don't be offended anyone by what I wrote. Not ment as a personal
attack on anyone! I fully accept that others think differently. This is
just my point of view.
Vince D. Kimball
"Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>My sentiments exactly. TopSpeed should be more concerned about universal
>access, I.E. the read only for no charge, than trying to get one more sale
>from it's installed base. I think they will find it opens an awful lot of
>doors in the corporate world. I know very well I was not considered for a
>large contract for this very reason.
All I can suggest is to send or fax examples of problems caused by a
per user licensing arrangement like this to Kendall Goodrich at
Topspeed. Maybe that will cause some re-thinking of their position.
Vince D. Kimball
"Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Not only this I think TopSpeed is missing the boat somewhat by not having
>the read only driver be free. I think it could be a great selling point to
>get CW into the corporate main stream.
I don't disagree that it would be nice.
>I personally think in the corporate world right now
>Access is probably TopSpeed's big competitor.
Clarion is a professional development environment. I don't think
Access is.
Vince D. Kimball
Marti...@sprintmail.com (Martin Allen) wrote:
>vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>>I'm confused I guess, but why would a CW app use the TPS ODBC driver
>>when it could access the TPS files directly. It's only non-CW apps
>>that need the TPS ODBC driver.
>That is quite correct, but even CW application may have some parts made
>with 3rd party tools such as Crystal Reports or Reportsmith.
In that case, one option would be to use a database format that is
supported by Crystal Reports or Reportsmith or whatever.
>Think about selling an application which has reports made with Crystal
>Reports. You can not make an "off the shelve" applications utilizing TS
>ODBC drivers ...
True, this is also true of the other database formats that use ODBC
drivers which are sold on a similar basis.
Unless you had enough volume and could arrange a special deal with
Topspeed . . .
Mick_G
Vince:
Vince D. Kimball <vkim...@shore.net> wrote in article
<5t1s9f$5...@fridge-nf0.shore.net>...
I know that, your know that, those corporate guys don't!
Mick
Martin Allen
Scott Ferrett <su...@topspeed-dc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Why would you create a Clarion program that accesses TopSpeed files via
>ODBC?
If the driver performance is acceptable I can't see many reasons why not.
Since I don't have the TS ODBC driver, I can't give you any good reasons
why to (or not to) use it.
Best regards,
Martin
Martin Allen
vkim...@shore.net (Vince D. Kimball) wrote:
>>That is quite correct, but even CW application may have some parts made
>>with 3rd party tools such as Crystal Reports or Reportsmith.
>In that case, one option would be to use a database format that is
>supported by Crystal Reports or Reportsmith or whatever.
That is the way I have been doing it. That is how I continue doing it.
>>Think about selling an application which has reports made with Crystal
>>Reports. You can not make an "off the shelve" applications utilizing TS
>>ODBC drivers ...
>True, this is also true of the other database formats that use ODBC
>drivers which are sold on a similar basis.
Hmmm... I am honestly getting sick and tired of this subject since it
doesn't seem lead anywhere. There are people who would love to get the
driver free and people who would not mind paying for it. Some drivers are
free some of them you have to pay for. What's the difference? TS has chosen
to charge for each driver set and they naturally had a right to do that.
The policy is set and it is very unlikely that TS is going change it based
on our whining.
Anyway... My *final* comment regarding the TS ODBC driver is this:
The TS ODBC driver set should have been distributed with Clarion with
right to redistibute it to our customers. TS should have charge their
profit (and cover the development expenses, of course) by increasing the CW
(C4) price, if necessary.
This is only my *opinion* and I am not expecting anyone to agree with me.
I am not commenting TS ODBC driver licensing after posting this message.
So there. No more comments or even whining! That's it! The end! ;)
Best regards,
Martin ;)
PS1. Follow-Ups to alt.junk (or some other suitable group I don't read) ;)
PS2. Above comments are not a response for any particular message or sender
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Vince,
On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:26:36 GMT, vkim...@shore.net (Vince D.
Kimball) wrote:
>>That is quite correct, but even CW application may have some parts made
>>with 3rd party tools such as Crystal Reports or Reportsmith.
>
>In that case, one option would be to use a database format that is
>supported by Crystal Reports or Reportsmith or whatever.
Like ODBC. I find this discussion going in a circles!
1. We need an ODBC driver to connect to TPS files
2. We have an ODBC driver
3. We need to distribute the ODBC driver
4. We have to pay for being able to distribute the ODBC driver
5. It's too expensive
6. Use other file format.
Back at square one! This is the problem the ODBC driver was supposed
to solve for CW developers and now it's out, people are saying it's
too expensive for mass distribution and the solution is to use the
same solution that has been used to hook into third party tools that
don't support TPS files: Other file formats. I'm very confused<bg>
Mick_G
Martin:
I was going to but was too busy at the moment to give it a shot, to setup a
small app using some files I've got, to try an app with Visual C++. Using a
Access file accessing *.tps files through ODBC and using DAO to see just
how fast an app I could create. But like I said didn't get around to it.
I'll be getting the ODBC drivers soon, just can't see it right now with the
5 seat license???
Mick
Martin Allen <Marti...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<33f7e7ae....@w3.uccb.ns.ca>...
Michael Gould
> Back at square one! This is the problem the ODBC driver was supposed
> to solve for CW developers and now it's out, people are saying it's
> too expensive for mass distribution and the solution is to use the
> same solution that has been used to hook into third party tools that
> don't support TPS files: Other file formats. I'm very confused<bg>
Arnor,
I like you are very confused. If $40.00 per seat is going to make or
break a deal, then
in my estimation, the job probably wasn't worth the effort in the first
place. I have been
writing commercial software for almost 20 years. If $40.00 per seat was
going to make
or break a deal, I would look at another industry to work in. Come on
guys, lets get
real on this. If you were working with a true SQL backend, you would be
paying much
more than $40.00 per seat, so lets find something else to move on to.
This just shouldn't
be a problem.
My 2 cents worth. I guess you can't please all of the people all of the
time.
Mike Gould
Doug Hill
The answer to help Topspeed and satisfy the developers is simple:
Topspeed charges us $99 for the privelege to distribute the
Read Only ODBC drivers (unlimited).
Tom Ruby
Arnor Baldvinsson <arno...@post3.tele.dk> wrote in article
<33f62a39...@w3.uccb.ns.ca>...
> Hi Vince,
>
> 1. We need an ODBC driver to connect to TPS files
> 2. We have an ODBC driver
> 3. We need to distribute the ODBC driver
> 4. We have to pay for being able to distribute the ODBC driver
> 5. It's too expensive
> 6. Use other file format.
>
I like free stuff too, but I quite understand the need to feed the kids and
make the house payment.
--
Tom Ruby
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ru...@acm.org
http://www.netins.net/showcase/tomruby/
Find resources mentioned in this newsgroup:
http://www.netins.net/showcase/tomruby/clarion/
Tim Wingfield
On 19 Aug 97 01:54:48 GMT, "Jeff Berlinghoff"
<Berlin...@ngw.dep.state.fl.us> wrote:
>I've been following this with interest (as most have, I'm sure). Since most
>people on here are probably selling their apps to clients, let me throw
>another angle at you. I work for a state government agency and am trying to
>keep Clarion in use here because it has suited our needs very well. Asking
>clients to pay $40 per seat is one thing, but when you've been continually
>developing distribute freely applications within your organization and have
>to start charging (how does one entity charge another part of itself and
>who should really be paying for it?), and not knowing how many users there
>will be, it can become a costly issue. (Our "clients" are just starting to
>inquire about accessing TPS files with other tools.)
>
>Jeff Berlinghoff
I'm confused. If you are developing Clarion apps using tps files why
would you ever have to charge the $40 for the ODBC driver? If the
other departments want to access the tps files with other tools let
them buy the ODBC drivers for their own department for use with the
other tools
Tim
.
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Tom,
On 18 Aug 1997 15:23:26 GMT, "Tom Ruby" <ru...@acm.org> wrote:
>> 1. We need an ODBC driver to connect to TPS files
>> 2. We have an ODBC driver
>> 3. We need to distribute the ODBC driver
>> 4. We have to pay for being able to distribute the ODBC driver
>> 5. It's too expensive
>> 6. Use other file format.
>>
>
>I like free stuff too, but I quite understand the need to feed the kids and
>make the house payment.
I'm just trying to come to grips with this, and I'm still going in
circles<bg> I understand perfectly that TS want's something for their
work but if I understand the pricing correctly a developer must BUY
one driver for every copy he sells or distributes with his program,
just like if he wanted to bundle some other commercial software with
his software. I think we can all agree on that the ODBC driver is a
database driver and works only with TPS files. I would therefor
suggest that CW developers can buy it for a fixed price, say 200
dollars or 100 dollars or whatever, and distribute it freely - that
is, the buying price is a one-time royalty free price and the driver
can be distributed freely. How TS markets the driver OUTSIDE the CW
developers community is a different story, but for us, who develop in
CW, I feel it should be treated like any other 3rd party tool, which
most are royalty free.
Well, that's just my opinion:)
Mick_G
Arnor:
My sentiments exactly.
Mick
Arnor Baldvinsson <arno...@post3.tele.dk> wrote in article
<33f89db3...@w3.uccb.ns.ca>...
> Hi Tom,
Mick_G
Arnor:
I've been saying this for a while. Nice to see someone who people pay
attention to saying it? :-)> I am going to be distributing my Great
American Application over the Internet. I also believe in the concept of
try before you buy. I also have a radical view, I don't want to have a
price per user, per server is the way I want to go. I also would like to
change my reports to Crystal Reports with out any in between step. I'm
stuck, can't for the life of me figure a way to do it and stay within the
bounds of the present licensing agreement.
Mick
Arnor Baldvinsson <arno...@post3.tele.dk> wrote in article
<33f7e43d...@w3.uccb.ns.ca>...
> Hi Mike,
>
> On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:01:05 -0400, Michael Gould
> <mag...@topspeed.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe the price info is lacking? Anyway. Let's say I wrote a program
> that I wanted to have the ODBC driver included and wanted to
> distribute this as a shareware program. Now, this is just
> hypothetical, but how would I/TS handle this? I'd appreciate some
> guidance here:)
Colin Brown
Thanks to everyone for their contribution.
I can see that this topic is about exhausted and is now going around in
circles. Thanks again to everyone that contributed. It was quite
interesting to hear (not neccessarily agree with though) everyone's
contribution. The main point was I hope to give Topspeed something to
think about re their current position on selling the ODBC drivers.
I can't help but notice that Topspeed have not had anything to say yet !!
But then again we have said our bit and I hope that Topspeed do something
with it.
Thanks again Guys
Colin Brown
Cape Town, South Africa
cbr...@oldmutual.com
PS - I think that's a wrap.
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Mike,
On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:01:05 -0400, Michael Gould
<mag...@topspeed.com> wrote:
>> Back at square one! This is the problem the ODBC driver was supposed
>> to solve for CW developers and now it's out, people are saying it's
>> too expensive for mass distribution and the solution is to use the
>> same solution that has been used to hook into third party tools that
>> don't support TPS files: Other file formats. I'm very confused<bg>
>
>Arnor,
>I like you are very confused. If $40.00 per seat is going to make or
>break a deal, then
>in my estimation, the job probably wasn't worth the effort in the first
>place. I have been
>writing commercial software for almost 20 years. If $40.00 per seat was
Maybe the price info is lacking? Anyway. Let's say I wrote a program
Jeff Berlinghoff
Michael Gould <mag...@topspeed.com> wrote in article
<33F782B1...@topspeed.com>...
> Arnor,
> I like you are very confused. If $40.00 per seat is going to make or
> break a deal, then
> in my estimation, the job probably wasn't worth the effort in the first
> place. I have been
> writing commercial software for almost 20 years. If $40.00 per seat was
> going to make
> guys, lets get
> real on this. If you were working with a true SQL backend, you would be
> paying much
> more than $40.00 per seat, so lets find something else to move on to.
> This just shouldn't
> be a problem.
I've been following this with interest (as most have, I'm sure). Since most
Mick_G
Larry:
Are you not following this thread. If you want to use Crystal Report as an
example as your report generator you have to go through some contortions to
make it work with TopSpeed file format. Now I'm doing this now, but I would
rather not. In the context of shareware, there is no simple solution. You
can not distribute the ODBC driver for TopSpeed with the app. So what are
you going to do, if you want to see what reports are like buy the ODBC
driver?
Mick
Larry Juker <lju...@televar.com> wrote in article
<33F9FA...@televar.com>...
> marketing dialog that it can easily interface with Crystal Reports by
> purchasing the optional CR odbc kit. This way you get a few more
> dollars when your customer wants to go beyond the initial design of your
> program.
>
> Until the client leaves your program platform, there is no need for the
> odbc drivers. Topspeed sells them as an addon for anyone who needs to
> interface their data files with another program. (ie. Crystal Reports,
> etc.) None of the applications I create need the odbc drivers to make
> them work. If any of my clients wants to use their data with CR or xyz
> I will sell them the odbc solution. Other than that, who cares if TS
> charges $40 per seat or $5.50? The end user will pay the going price
> when they buy that feature.
> --
>
> Larry Juker <lju...@televar.com> - NW Computer Resources
> using CPD 2.1, LPM, CauseWay, CFD 3.1, CW 2.0, Power Suite,
> CPCS, RPM, AFE, G-Reg
>
Larry Juker
> Are you not following this thread. If you want to use Crystal Report as an
> example as your report generator you have to go through some contortions to
> make it work with TopSpeed file format. Now I'm doing this now, but I would
> rather not. In the context of shareware, there is no simple solution. You
> can not distribute the ODBC driver for TopSpeed with the app. So what are
> you going to do, if you want to see what reports are like buy the ODBC
> driver?
Mick, I think I am following just fine. Perhaps I just have a different
point of view. Crystal Reports wasn't free. I had to pay for it. I
don't give away the reports I create with it. If my clients wish to
have me provide them with this capability, they will have to pay me for
it. This includes whatever TS charges for the odbc driver. I can pass
it along at my cost or mark it up as I see fit. Anything I do with CR
for my clients is automatically an extra charge. Even if all I do is
use the Missing Link template to create a dBase file to use with CR. (I
believe in cost recovery with every sale.)
Somehow this thread has become insanity. Everyone thinks TS should give
away their work. I just recently read that someone in this group has
obtained the read-only odbc product with unlimited distribution for the
sum of $100. Isn't this a simple and reasonable solution? How many of
your clients will need update capability for their Reports? If they do
need the ability to update your files and interface with your product
from their program, I think they will be willing to pay you for that
functionality. At $40 (your maximum cost) this is nothing to be arguing
about. You would surely resell this same functionality at twice that
price, or more.
The only point I have seen in this whole thread that I might agree with
is that TS would be smart to include one read-only odbc license with
each CW product we purchase.
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Mick,
On 18 Aug 1997 23:51:37 GMT, "Mick_G" <mic...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>I've been saying this for a while. Nice to see someone who people pay
>attention to saying it? :-)>
If you pay attention to what I say, you've got a problem<bg>
>I am going to be distributing my Great American Application over the
>Internet. I also believe in the concept of try before you buy. I also
>have a radical view, I don't want to have a
I've been racking my brain about this too. If I wanted to put a
freeware version of a commercial (or shareware, or whatever)
application up on Icetips and include the ODBC driver, I just can't,
unless I violate the ODBC licence as there is no way in the world I
can determine (with any reasonable accuracy) how many download the
program, and even if I could and knew that 10,000 copies had been
downloaded... then what? Should I pay TS $400,000 in royalties (if
the driver is at $40 - or was that for the 5pack?)? What would I
gain? A loss of $400,000. I know there are some pack solutions
(5/10/20 licences) but I think this pricing policy just won't work. I
just can't imagine how I, or TS, could ever monitor this to any
extent.
>price per user, per server is the way I want to go. I also would like to
>change my reports to Crystal Reports with out any in between step. I'm
>stuck, can't for the life of me figure a way to do it and stay within the
>bounds of the present licensing agreement.
I really don't know. I would like to see a developers version for CW
developers at somewhere around $100-200 without any royalties
payments, so that we could freely distribute the driver with out
applications. I just can't for the life of me see how else it will
ever work. How TS markets the driver outside their loyal CW users is
none of my concern.
Larry Juker
> I've been racking my brain about this too. If I wanted to put a
> freeware version of a commercial (or shareware, or whatever)
> application up on Icetips and include the ODBC driver, I just can't,
> unless I violate the ODBC licence as there is no way in the world I
> can determine (with any reasonable accuracy) how many download the
> program, and even if I could and knew that 10,000 copies had been
> downloaded... then what? Should I pay TS $400,000 in royalties (if
> the driver is at $40 - or was that for the 5pack?)? What would I
> gain? A loss of $400,000. I know there are some pack solutions
> (5/10/20 licences) but I think this pricing policy just won't work. I
> just can't imagine how I, or TS, could ever monitor this to any
> extent.
I still am confused by all this fuss about the odbc product.
In your case, Arnor, wouldn't you create your nifty shareware program
with its built-in topspeed file format and offer the odbc connectivity
as an option? For instance, you might wish to indicate in your
marketing dialog that it can easily interface with Crystal Reports by
purchasing the optional CR odbc kit. This way you get a few more
dollars when your customer wants to go beyond the initial design of your
program.
Until the client leaves your program platform, there is no need for the
odbc drivers. Topspeed sells them as an addon for anyone who needs to
interface their data files with another program. (ie. Crystal Reports,
etc.) None of the applications I create need the odbc drivers to make
them work. If any of my clients wants to use their data with CR or xyz
I will sell them the odbc solution. Other than that, who cares if TS
charges $40 per seat or $5.50? The end user will pay the going price
when they buy that feature.
Bernard Grosperrin
Le Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:58:39 GMT, arno...@post3.tele.dk (Arnor Baldvinsson) écrit :
Hi Arnor
-->I've been racking my brain about this too. If I wanted to put a
-->freeware version of a commercial (or shareware, or whatever)
-->application up on Icetips and include the ODBC driver, I just can't,
-->unless I violate the ODBC licence as there is no way in the world I
-->can determine (with any reasonable accuracy) how many download the
-->program, and even if I could and knew that 10,000 copies had been
-->downloaded... then what? Should I pay TS $400,000 in royalties (if
-->the driver is at $40 - or was that for the 5pack?)? What would I
-->gain? A loss of $400,000. I know there are some pack solutions
-->(5/10/20 licences) but I think this pricing policy just won't work. I
-->just can't imagine how I, or TS, could ever monitor this to any
-->extent.
This would be true for any application...If you develop in VB a Jet engine application,
you have no rights to GIVE Access ODBC with it.....Ask Microsoft lawyers what they think
.....
Bernard Grosperrin - ALIAS(Bernie) -
BG Consultants.
Team Topspeed Internet
bgr...@usa.net
Compuserve : 100023,2474
Scott Ferrett
In article <33F1CCC9...@ix.netcom.com>, Kurt Pawlikowski wrote:
> I was under the impression that using ODBC drivers on a network
> could improve performance because the server dose some of the work (not
> a good as SQL, but better than direct - probably similar to Btrieve).
> Perhaps I am mistaken, but that was my impression.
>
This is not the case. ODBC communicates to the data files via SQL.
Neither of these have anything to do with Client/Server. It is true that
most Client/Server systems use SQL as the communication protocol between
the Client and the Server, but there are other (more efficient) systems
about. Similarly SQL can be used (inefficiently) to talk to non
Client/Server systems, like TopSpeed files (or any other ISAM system).
So what you get with the TS ODBC driver is a communication system (SQL)
optimised for C/S being used in a non-C/S situation. So you get the
worst of both worlds. This is the basic design flaw in ODBC. But since
when did something being technically flawed ever stop it from becoming
popular. <g>
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Larry,
On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:56:09 -0700, Larry Juker <lju...@televar.com>
wrote:
>> I've been racking my brain about this too. If I wanted to put a
...
>In your case, Arnor, wouldn't you create your nifty shareware program
>with its built-in topspeed file format and offer the odbc connectivity
>as an option? For instance, you might wish to indicate in your
>marketing dialog that it can easily interface with Crystal Reports by
>purchasing the optional CR odbc kit. This way you get a few more
>dollars when your customer wants to go beyond the initial design of your
>program.
I see your point, but I'm still not convinced;) Let's just say I sold
10,000 copies of this program. The data in it could be used in for
example mailmerge in Word and for data gathering in Excel and
presentation in PowerPoint (just to name something) Let's say I then
get calls from 5,000 customers asking if I couldn't supply them with
an ODBC driver to get this happening. I call Russ and he sends me
those 5,000 packages which I would then have to wait to receive and
then ship them to my customers. As I see it, this is just more hassle
for me instead of just being able to include the darn driver in the
ready to use package or download file. No matter what kind of
ordering system you have, even automatic internet ordering it will
still need to be shipped etc. I'm not sure this scheme would go well
down with most people... When we buy something we want it all<g>
Arnor Baldvinsson
Hi Larry,
On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:42:02 -0700, Larry Juker <lju...@televar.com>
wrote:
>Somehow this thread has become insanity. Everyone thinks TS should give
>away their work. I just recently read that someone in this group has
>obtained the read-only odbc product with unlimited distribution for the
>sum of $100. Isn't this a simple and reasonable solution? How many of
If I recall the $100 for a read-only ODBC was a suggestion not
reality. It would indeed be a very good solution as a read-only
driver is in most cases what is needed to make other programs access
your tps files. I certainly don't suggest that TS gives the ODBC
driver away, but I just can't see how it would work for mass
marketing. Maybe no CW developers are into that<g>
>your clients will need update capability for their Reports? If they do
>need the ability to update your files and interface with your product
>from their program, I think they will be willing to pay you for that
>functionality. At $40 (your maximum cost) this is nothing to be arguing
>about. You would surely resell this same functionality at twice that
>price, or more.
It's fine if you are distributing a program that costs $1000 or
$10,000 or $100,000, then it's not a question. However, if you are
distributing a shareware program for $50 and then want to sell the
ODBC for the same price or even more, I don't think it will work. Now
this is all hypothetical for me and maybe this isn't an issue at
all...
>The only point I have seen in this whole thread that I might agree with
>is that TS would be smart to include one read-only odbc license with
>each CW product we purchase.
I agree 100%.
Scott Ferrett
In article <01bca91b$f76788e0$5441...@geirhan.online.no>, Geir Hansen
wrote:
> I've often had to
> struggle though, when I need to convince customers that CW is a better
> choice than Oracle Developer 2000, PowerBuilder and such alike. When I end
> up in a situation like that, guess what I'm often confronted with; More
> than once have I been asked: "How can CW be a professional language, when
> it's so inexpensive?"
>
These are the ones that we sell the Enterprise Edition to.<g>
Russell B. Eggen (Topspeed)
Arnor,
You need to drop a line to our sales staff about this (sa...@topspeed.com).
Since most of this discussion is dealing with licensing and ordering, it
is best to take it up with them. Also, those folks (to the best of my
knowledge) do not monitor this group.
If there is a question on how to use it, then lets keep it here <g>.
--
Russell B. Eggen
Topspeed Corporation
reg...@topspeed.com
[Using MS Internet News 3.0]
Arnor Baldvinsson <arno...@post3.tele.dk> wrote in article
<33fa0ea2...@w3.uccb.ns.ca>...