Re: The C++ pronunciation dictionary, version 1.0

[David Brown]

On 15/09/18 22:55, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
> characters in their newsreader. The American English
> pronunciations are given.
>
> &  ~ “reff” (in the cases where it means "reference")
> bool  ˈbuːl
> c_str  si stɚ
> C++  si plʌs plʌs, ~ “see plus plus”
> C++ish  si plʌs plʌs ɩʃ, ~ “C++ ish”
> cout  si aʊt
> deque  dɛk
> int  ɪnt
> iostream   ɑɪ o striːm
> is less  ɪzlɛs
> ISO ˈɑɪso (sn), ~ “eye so”
> iterator  ˈɪtə ˌret ɚ
> lvalue  ~ “L value”
> macro   ˈmækroʊ
> mingw  mɪn dʒi ˈdʌbəlˌ ju
> ostream   o striːm
> POD  pi o di
> prvalue  pi ɑɚ ˈvælju
> rvalue  ~ “R value”
> SFINAE  ˈsfi neɪ, ˈɛs fi neɪ
> standard ˈstændɚd
> std  ~ standard (sh) /ˈstændɚd/, or /stəd/,
> or /ɛs tiː diː/
> Stephan Lavavej  stɛ fən lɑː wɑː weɪd (really??)
> stream strim
> template  ˈtɛm plɪt
> tuple tuːp(ə)l, tʌp(ə)l
> value  ˈvælju
> volatile  ˈvɑlətəl (d)
>

How about people simply pronounce the words in the way that fits with
their dialect and accent? Most of these are either normal English
words, individual alphabet letters, or a combination. There is no need
for a guide - and certainly no need to try to tell people to use
/American/ pronunciation! Americans will use American pronunciation no
matter what, non-American English speakers will use their own language
(I hesitate to say /proper/ English, because there could be some
Canadians here...), and non-English natives will use whatever
pronunciation is common in their country.

[Stuart Redmann]

Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> wrote:

> On 15/09/2018 21:55, Stefan Ram wrote:
>> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
>> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
>> characters in their newsreader. The American English
>> pronunciations are given.
>>
>>
>>

> You're wasting your time. People can pronounce the words in any way
> they think fit and some people will try to correct them but it is futile
> IMO.
>
> For example "Router" is pronounced differently in USA and England. Also
> Linux or pronounced differently. There are many words like this so
> don't waste your time on this and instead write some good algorithms
> that people can use.

Stefan's a teacher, he just wants to pronounce it right. He also should
have mentioned this in his post. I come from Germany, too, and I was really
flabbergasted about the two different ways to pronounce "router". And the
other day I also wondered how to pronounce SFINAE.

For non-native speakers this list is quite informative, but whether it's
appropriate for a usenet is a totally different question. Given the low
(on-topic) traffic in this group, I'd say it can stay.

Regards,
Stuart

[David Brown]

On 16/09/18 19:45, Real Troll wrote:
> On 15/09/2018 21:55, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>    Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
>>    the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
>>    characters in their newsreader. The American English
>>    pronunciations are given.
>>
>>
>>
> You're wasting your time.  People can pronounce the words in any way
> they think fit and some people will try to correct them but it is futile
> IMO.
>
> For example "Router" is pronounced differently in USA and England.

Yes. We British pronounce "route" as "route" - the same as the
pronunciation of "root". (Unless, of course, Americans pronounce "root"
incorrectly as well.) When an American tries to talk about "route",
they pronounce it like "rout" - instead of routing their Ethernet
packets around a network, they chase them off the battlefield.

I have no idea why, but this particular weird American pronunciation
bugs me more than most others. Perhaps it is because it is a term that
seldom crops up in American films, but often comes up at work - and I
expect work colleagues to know better than actors.

To keep the balance, at least the Americans got the spelling of words
like "color" right - we British changed it to "colour" to make it look
more French and glamorous. I'll agree to spell like an American, if the
Americans will agree to talk English like a proper Scotsman!

[David Brown]

People in Germany will pronounce the terms the same way as they
pronounce the normal words in English - for good or for bad. And if
anyone wants to know how they are pronounced in English, or American,
they can watch a youtube video of someone talking about C++. It will be
a great deal more useful to most people than IPA pronunciations.

"SFINAE" is pronounced "Can't we /please/ use concepts instead?"

[Ian Collins]

On 17/09/18 08:16, David Brown wrote:
> On 16/09/18 19:45, Real Troll wrote:
>> On 15/09/2018 21:55, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>    Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
>>>    the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
>>>    characters in their newsreader. The American English
>>>    pronunciations are given.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> You're wasting your time.  People can pronounce the words in any way
>> they think fit and some people will try to correct them but it is futile
>> IMO.
>>
>> For example "Router" is pronounced differently in USA and England.
>
> Yes. We British pronounce "route" as "route" - the same as the
> pronunciation of "root". (Unless, of course, Americans pronounce "root"
> incorrectly as well.) When an American tries to talk about "route",
> they pronounce it like "rout" - instead of routing their Ethernet
> packets around a network, they chase them off the battlefield.

I always thought they used them to hollow out bits of wood...

--
Ian.

[Tim Rentsch]

Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> writes:

> On 15/09/2018 21:55, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
>> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
>> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
>> characters in their newsreader. The American English
>> pronunciations are given.
>
> You're wasting your time. People can pronounce the words in any
> way they think fit and some people will try to correct them but it
> is futile IMO.

I took this to say only which pronunciation is given, not that
the stated pronunciations are "correct". He may be trying to
give what he believes are the most common pronunciations in
cases where there is more than one (ie, even within American
English), but in any case just his best understanding, or at
least that is my impression.

> For example "Router" is pronounced differently in USA and
> England.

Some observations about American English. (My native language is
American English.)

Used as a noun, "route" is to some extent regional: in some
places "root" is more common, in other places "rowt" is more
common. I believe either pronunciation will be understood in
most of the US, with "root" perhaps being more common. Used
as an adjective, my impression is "root" is much more common.

Used as a verb, "route" is usually like "rowt": we talk about
"rowting" a packet, not "rooting" a packet. (Incidentally this
also removes ambiguity with respect to the word 'root', in the
sense of superuser.) So it is natural to call something that
decides where to send different packets a "rowter" than it would
be to call it a "rooter". The word "rooter" tends to conjure up
images of cleaning sewer drains.

All of the above just my personal observations, nothing official.

> Also Linux or pronounced differently.

I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.

(Also I put the emphasis on the first syllable, LINux, with the
'u' being pronounced kind of half way between a short i, like
the i in 'sticks', and a short u, like the u in 'clucks'. It
may be that one or both of these derive from the same source
where I read that LT uses a short i sound; I think at least
one of them does, but I don't remember for sure.)

[David Brown]

I haven't heard any difference in pronunciation between the verb and the
noun "route" amongst Americans - I have only heard them say "rowt". But
as an American, you have vastly more experience of listening to
Americans than I do as a Scot. So it is interesting to hear your
observations here.

>
>> Also Linux or pronounced differently.
>
> I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
> i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.
>
> (Also I put the emphasis on the first syllable, LINux, with the
> 'u' being pronounced kind of half way between a short i, like
> the i in 'sticks', and a short u, like the u in 'clucks'. It
> may be that one or both of these derive from the same source
> where I read that LT uses a short i sound; I think at least
> one of them does, but I don't remember for sure.)
>

Yes, that is correct. The pronunciation of Linux comes from his name -
in Finland, it is, as you say, pronounced with an "i" like in "in". I
gather Americans sometimes pronounce the name with "i" like in "eye",
but I would say the "correct" pronunciation of the name Linus, and thus
Linux, should follow the Finnish version.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
> On 19/09/18 16:29, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> writes:

...

>>> Also Linux or pronounced differently.
>>
>> I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
>> i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.

Not sure that's correct ... people in Sweden pronounce both Linus and
Linux with a fairly long i, like "lean".

People speaking Swedish in Finland tend to stretch and stress the
first syllable even more, which is why Tove Jansson's likeable
Mumin character has his name spelled "Moomin" in translation.

Not that I think it's important, and I haven't listened to ; see below:

>> (Also I put the emphasis on the first syllable, LINux, with the
>> 'u' being pronounced kind of half way between a short i, like
>> the i in 'sticks', and a short u, like the u in 'clucks'. It
>> may be that one or both of these derive from the same source
>> where I read that LT uses a short i sound; I think at least
>> one of them does, but I don't remember for sure.)
>
> Yes, that is correct. The pronunciation of Linux comes from his name -
> in Finland, it is, as you say, pronounced with an "i" like in "in". I
> gather Americans sometimes pronounce the name with "i" like in "eye",
> but I would say the "correct" pronunciation of the name Linus, and thus
> Linux, should follow the Finnish version.

I think what matters is (1) communicating well and (2) signalling
membership in a group of like-minded and cool people. Keeping track
of official pronunciation is less important.

Besides, in some sense it's an honor to have your name translated.
I pronounce Emacs like it was a swedish word because it's been my
favorite editor for 25 years; I pronounce vi the official way and
don't use it that much :-)

Everyone around here uses native pronounciation for: C, C++, Java, but
not for BASIC, C#, Ruby. Python: about fifty-fifty.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Scott Lurndal]

Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> writes:
>On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
>> On 19/09/18 16:29, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> writes:
>...
>>>> Also Linux or pronounced differently.
>>>
>>> I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
>>> i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.
>
>Not sure that's correct ... people in Sweden pronounce both Linus and

>Linux with a fairly long i, like "lean".\

And that's how he pronounces his name (leeenus). But his OS
is pronounced linux (like "linen").

[David Brown]

On 19/09/18 22:09, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
>> On 19/09/18 16:29, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>> Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> writes:
> ...
>>>> Also Linux or pronounced differently.
>>>
>>> I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
>>> i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.
>
> Not sure that's correct ... people in Sweden pronounce both Linus and
> Linux with a fairly long i, like "lean".
>
> People speaking Swedish in Finland tend to stretch and stress the
> first syllable even more, which is why Tove Jansson's likeable
> Mumin character has his name spelled "Moomin" in translation.

That is also how it is usually pronounced in Norway. Perhaps when the
man himself has talked about how he pronounces his name, he has
exaggerated the different - preferring "in" to "eye", even if "lean"
were more accurate.

>
> Not that I think it's important, and I haven't listened to ; see below:
>
>>> (Also I put the emphasis on the first syllable, LINux, with the
>>> 'u' being pronounced kind of half way between a short i, like
>>> the i in 'sticks', and a short u, like the u in 'clucks'. It
>>> may be that one or both of these derive from the same source
>>> where I read that LT uses a short i sound; I think at least
>>> one of them does, but I don't remember for sure.)
>>
>> Yes, that is correct. The pronunciation of Linux comes from his name -
>> in Finland, it is, as you say, pronounced with an "i" like in "in". I
>> gather Americans sometimes pronounce the name with "i" like in "eye",
>> but I would say the "correct" pronunciation of the name Linus, and thus
>> Linux, should follow the Finnish version.
>
> I think what matters is (1) communicating well and (2) signalling
> membership in a group of like-minded and cool people. Keeping track
> of official pronunciation is less important.
>

Agreed.

> Besides, in some sense it's an honor to have your name translated.
> I pronounce Emacs like it was a swedish word because it's been my
> favorite editor for 25 years; I pronounce vi the official way and
> don't use it that much :-)
>
> Everyone around here uses native pronounciation for: C, C++, Java, but
> not for BASIC, C#, Ruby. Python: about fifty-fifty.
>

Basic, ruby and python are all normal English words - how would you
pronounce them other than as those words?

"C#" I can understand - "C sharp", "C hash", "C square", "We wanted to
make our own closed and incompatible version of Java, but the courts
wouldn't let us call it Java".

> /Jorgen
>

[Real Troll]

How about Delphi? Pronounced as: DelfiI or Delfy

[David Brown]

"Delfy" would be closest. But I would say pronounce it as "Delphi" -
it's a place name.

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 15.09.18 um 22:55 schrieb Stefan Ram:

> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
> characters in their newsreader. The American English
> pronunciations are given.

I'm most surprised about this one:

> deque  dɛk

I've always pronounced it like 'diːkjuː, because it is a double ended
queue (ˈkjuː) which coincides up to the accent with the verb dequeue
(diːˈkjuː according to the OED)

Christian

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 19.09.18 um 17:15 schrieb David Brown:

>>> Also Linux or pronounced differently.
>>
>> I have heard that Linus Thorvalds pronounces "Linux" with a short
>> i, like the word "in", and so that's how I pronounce it.
>>
>> (Also I put the emphasis on the first syllable, LINux, with the
>> 'u' being pronounced kind of half way between a short i, like
>> the i in 'sticks', and a short u, like the u in 'clucks'. It
>> may be that one or both of these derive from the same source
>> where I read that LT uses a short i sound; I think at least
>> one of them does, but I don't remember for sure.)
>>
>
> Yes, that is correct. The pronunciation of Linux comes from his name -
> in Finland, it is, as you say, pronounced with an "i" like in "in". I
> gather Americans sometimes pronounce the name with "i" like in "eye",
> but I would say the "correct" pronunciation of the name Linus, and thus
> Linux, should follow the Finnish version.

There is a pronunciation guide from Linus himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c39QPDTDdXU

which I hear as ['Li:nuks], which is the same it is usually pronounced
over here in Germany.

Christian
>

[guinne...@gmail.com]

Donald Knuth: The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. 1 (Fundamental Algorithms)

Section 2.2.1: Stacks, Queues, and Deques

"A deque ... has some properties in common with a deck of cards,
and it is pronounced the same way."

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
> On 19/09/18 22:09, Jorgen Grahn wrote:

...

>> Everyone around here uses native pronounciation for: C, C++, Java, but
>> not for BASIC, C#, Ruby. Python: about fifty-fifty.
>>
>
> Basic, ruby and python are all normal English words - how would you
> pronounce them other than as those words?

As if they were Swedish words. But you're right -- the English word
"basic" for example is so well known that noone would try to pronounce
it differently except for comic effect.

Python is different because there's a word "pyton" for the snakes, and
because Monty Python got local pronounciation back in the 70s.

[Bart]

On 20/09/2018 15:59, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
>> On 19/09/18 22:09, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> ...
>>> Everyone around here uses native pronounciation for: C, C++, Java, but
>>> not for BASIC, C#, Ruby. Python: about fifty-fifty.
>>>
>>
>> Basic, ruby and python are all normal English words - how would you
>> pronounce them other than as those words?
>
> As if they were Swedish words. But you're right -- the English word
> "basic" for example is so well known that noone would try to pronounce
> it differently except for comic effect.
>
> Python is different because there's a word "pyton" for the snakes, and
> because Monty Python got local pronounciation back in the 70s.
>

That doesn't stop Americans pronouncing it as PyTHON.


--
bart

[Paavo Helde]

Sorry, this is not helpful, I still have no idea how Americans pronounce
it, or how they ought to pronounce it.

I'm constantly baffled why people are trying to clarify pronunciation of
a nonphonemic orthography by using the same nonphonemic orthography.
Maybe somebody could write down some variants of "Python" in IPA?

For example, "python" (as the snake) is in Estonian written "püüton" and
pronounced "py:ton".

[David Brown]

On 20/09/18 16:59, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-09-19, David Brown wrote:
>> On 19/09/18 22:09, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> ...
>>> Everyone around here uses native pronounciation for: C, C++, Java, but
>>> not for BASIC, C#, Ruby. Python: about fifty-fifty.
>>>
>>
>> Basic, ruby and python are all normal English words - how would you
>> pronounce them other than as those words?
>
> As if they were Swedish words. But you're right -- the English word
> "basic" for example is so well known that noone would try to pronounce
> it differently except for comic effect.
>
> Python is different because there's a word "pyton" for the snakes, and
> because Monty Python got local pronounciation back in the 70s.
>

(I am Scottish, but live and work in Norway.)

"Pyton" is a Norwegian word too (and as well as the snakes, it means
something like "horrible" as well). But I have not heard anyone
pronounce the programming language Python as "peetun". Mind you, our
programming group is very international, so we use English pronunciation
more than Norwegian versions.

And I haven't heard "Monty Python" pronounced "Monty Pyton", except
perhaps for comic effect.

(Fun fact, which I am sure Jorgen knows already - Monty Python's "The
Life of Brian" was originally banned in Norway, as the last usage of our
old blasphemy laws. So it was marketed in Sweden as "The film that is
so funny it was banned in Norway". It was eventually released here, but
with an 18 age limit!)

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 20.09.18 um 18:12 schrieb Paavo Helde:

Yes, this is really astonishing to me, too. English is very ill-suited
to describe spelling, yet this so-called "re-spelling" is even the
default for some online dictionaries instead of IPA :wow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_respelling_for_English

But maybe for European speakers it's easier to learn IPA, because the
spelling system of most languages except French and English is quite
close to IPA.

Christian

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 20.09.18 um 11:13 schrieb guinne...@gmail.com:

OK, DK pronounces it as "deck" - but the argument doesn't convince me. A
deck of cards would remind me of a stack structure, you can put a card
on top and remove it, but how would I remove from the other end? Or is
it thought that we have two stacks, which can be used to simulate a dequeue?

Christian

[Chris M. Thomasson]

One can use a tail index to automatically find the end. Remove the card
by decrementing the tail.

[guinne...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 20 September 2018 22:08:39 UTC+1, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 20.09.18 um 11:13 schrieb guinne...@gmail.com:
> > On Thursday, 20 September 2018 08:41:29 UTC+1, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> >> Am 15.09.18 um 22:55 schrieb Stefan Ram:
> >>> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
> >>> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
> >>> characters in their newsreader. The American English
> >>> pronunciations are given.
> >>
> >> I'm most surprised about this one:
> >>
> >>> deque  dɛk
> >>
> >> I've always pronounced it like 'diːkjuː, because it is a double ended
> >> queue (ˈkjuː) which coincides up to the accent with the verb dequeue
> >> (diːˈkjuː according to the OED)
> >>
> >> Christian
> >
> > Donald Knuth: The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. 1 (Fundamental Algorithms)
> >
> > Section 2.2.1: Stacks, Queues, and Deques
> >
> > "A deque ... has some properties in common with a deck of cards,
> > and it is pronounced the same way."
> >
>
> OK, DK pronounces it as "deck" - but the argument doesn't convince me.

I'm not sure it's an argument, as such. I imagine it's just DEK's personal
mnemonic for remembering the name. Of course, he could just read out his
own initials as an acronym, instead!

> A deck of cards would remind me of a stack structure, you can put a card
> on top and remove it, but how would I remove from the other end?

You're imagining the deck sitting on a surface? It can also be held in hand.
Card sharps have no problem removing cards from either the top or the bottom
of the deck, when dealing.

> Or is it thought that we have two stacks, which can be used to simulate a
> dequeue?

... that's *deque*. "dequeue" is an operation (the opposite of "enqueue").

[Robert Wessel]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 23:08:25 +0200, Christian Gollwitzer
<auri...@gmx.de> wrote:

>Am 20.09.18 um 11:13 schrieb guinne...@gmail.com:
>> On Thursday, 20 September 2018 08:41:29 UTC+1, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>>> Am 15.09.18 um 22:55 schrieb Stefan Ram:
>>>> Compiled by me (S.R.), this is intended for readers who know
>>>> the IPA pronunciation notation and can see most Unicode 5.0
>>>> characters in their newsreader. The American English
>>>> pronunciations are given.
>>>
>>> I'm most surprised about this one:
>>>

>>>> deque? d?k
>>>
>>> I've always pronounced it like 'di?kju?, because it is a double ended
>>> queue (?kju?) which coincides up to the accent with the verb dequeue
>>> (di??kju? according to the OED)

>>>
>>> Christian
>>
>> Donald Knuth: The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. 1 (Fundamental Algorithms)
>>
>> Section 2.2.1: Stacks, Queues, and Deques
>>
>> "A deque ... has some properties in common with a deck of cards,
>> and it is pronounced the same way."
>>
>
>OK, DK pronounces it as "deck" - but the argument doesn't convince me. A
>deck of cards would remind me of a stack structure, you can put a card
>on top and remove it, but how would I remove from the other end? Or is
>it thought that we have two stacks, which can be used to simulate a dequeue?

Hold the deck of cards in your hand. Dealing from either the top or
the bottom is trivial.

[Jorgen Grahn]

Note that I never said it should. (In fact, I said the opposite.)

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is only for entertainment
purposes.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

Excellent point. I am wondering the the following video just might be of
some sort of service to the OP:

https://youtu.be/B_aSqq2qAD4

Imvho, this guy is pretty darn slick... Imagine playing poker with a
blind person! :^)

>> Or is it thought that we have two stacks, which can be used to simulate a
>> dequeue?
>
> ... that's *deque*. "dequeue" is an operation (the opposite of "enqueue").
>

For the OP:

enqueue = adding elements to a container in FIFO order

dequeue = removing elements from a container in FIFO order

This FIFO order is sort of "implied" by the suffix "queue" as opposed to
the prefix "en" or "de".

For fun, enstack or destack wrt "stack" basically implies LIFO order.

;^)