Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september)

[olcott]

On 6/9/2021 5:37 AM, James Harris wrote:
> Censorious Big Tech has now reached the point of Google blocking access
> to comp.lang.c.
>
> If I try to access clc from Google Groups I get told the following.
>
>
>
> Banned content warning
> comp.lang.c has been identified as containing spam, malware or other
> malicious content.
>
> For more information about content policies on Google Groups, see our
> Help Centre article on abuse and our Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>

Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september)

Free newsgroup host
https://www.eternal-september.org/

Free newsgroup client
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

[James Harris]

On 05/07/2021 14:31, olcott wrote:
> On 6/9/2021 5:37 AM, James Harris wrote:
>> Censorious Big Tech has now reached the point of Google blocking
>> access to comp.lang.c.
>>
>> If I try to access clc from Google Groups I get told the following.
>>
>>
>>
>> Banned content warning
>> comp.lang.c has been identified as containing spam, malware or other
>> malicious content.
>>
>> For more information about content policies on Google Groups, see our
>> Help Centre article on abuse and our Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september)
>
> Free newsgroup host
> https://www.eternal-september.org/
>
> Free newsgroup client
> https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
>

I use Thunderbird and Eternal September when I'm at home. But an
internet service like Google Groups is useful for when travelling.


--
James Harris

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 5 Jul 2021 15:31, olcott wrote:
> On 6/9/2021 5:37 AM, James Harris wrote:
>> Censorious Big Tech has now reached the point of Google blocking
>> access to comp.lang.c.
>>
>> If I try to access clc from Google Groups I get told the following.
>>
>>
>>
>> Banned content warning
>> comp.lang.c has been identified as containing spam, malware or other
>> malicious content.
>>
>> For more information about content policies on Google Groups, see our
>> Help Centre article on abuse and our Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september)
>
> Free newsgroup host
> https://www.eternal-september.org/
>
> Free newsgroup client
> https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/
>

As I recall Google has deleted the GG comp.lang.c archives. Half a year
ago? A year? And ditto for comp.lang.java? Not sure.

At the time, in a Facebook posting I compared that to the Nazi's book
burning.

For, it's about the same idea: remove all knowledge that one doesn't
like. Except that it's probably an automated system, an Artificial
Idiot, that's doing this, so "like" is probably a misnomer. But sort of.

Anyway that's breaking the promise Google made when they acquired
DejaNews in 2001, and it shows a total lack of commitment to original
Google values and goals.

No longer is Google collecting, storing and distributing the knowledge
of the world.

I believe the Norwegian national digital archive still archives most of
the old Usenet, but I'm not sure.

Also, there is an archive at the Internet Archive, <url:
https://archive.org/details/usenet>. But I don't know what it covers or
whether it's a still ongoing effort.


- Alf

[olcott]

The archive is distributed many places. Personally I use Giganews and
their archive goes back to 2004: $4.99 per month. All of my very old
messages still show up in Google groups.

https://cacm.acm.org/news/248041-21-million-of-the-oldest-internet-posts-are-now-online-for-anyone-to-read/fulltext


--

[Sam]

James Harris writes:

> I use Thunderbird and Eternal September when I'm at home. But an internet
> service like Google Groups is useful for when travelling.

There are nntp clients for Android. I never used them; they seem to be
mostly oriented towards snarfing binaries, but they might prove to be a
decent reader.

[olcott]

On 7/5/2021 11:39 AM, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:

This archive seems to have full text from the earliest years of USENET.
https://www.usenetarchives.com/

comp.lang.c goes back to 1986
https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=comp.lang.c&y=0&r=0&p=1

comp.lang.java goes back to 1995
https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=comp.lang.java&y=0&r=0&p=1

[Real Troll]

On 05/07/2021 14:31, olcott wrote:
>
>

> Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september)
>
> Free newsgroup host
> https://www.eternal-september.org/

If you don't want to give your personal details to that chap running
that crap then you can use aioe:

<news://news.aioe.org/comp.lang.c>

<news://news.aioe.org/comp.lang.c++>

<http://news.aioe.org/>

You don't need to give any valid email either! The Italian guy believes
in "Free Speech" and person's anonymity!

[olcott]

I provided an email address that I never use.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

GG was nice to be able to provide a link that anybody could go to and
read content, even if they never heard about usenet before. Now, all of
those links are dead in the water! That sucks. Grrrr. ;^(

[Keith Thompson]

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.s...@gmail.com> writes:
[...]

> As I recall Google has deleted the GG comp.lang.c archives. Half a
> year ago? A year? And ditto for comp.lang.java? Not sure.

[...]

Please take a moment to check before making claims like that.

I just did a search on group.google.com for articles posted to
comp.lang.c in 1998, and got 14,528 results:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.c/search?q=after%3A1998-01-01%20before%3A1998-12-31

A bit of browing leads me to suspect that the archive may be
incomplete, but it definitely exists.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.T...@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

[Chris M. Thomasson]

On 7/5/2021 2:13 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.s...@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
>> As I recall Google has deleted the GG comp.lang.c archives. Half a
>> year ago? A year? And ditto for comp.lang.java? Not sure.
> [...]
>
> Please take a moment to check before making claims like that.
>
> I just did a search on group.google.com for articles posted to
> comp.lang.c in 1998, and got 14,528 results:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.c/search?q=after%3A1998-01-01%20before%3A1998-12-31
>
> A bit of browing leads me to suspect that the archive may be
> incomplete, but it definitely exists.
>

That link works, and goes to content! Thanks Keith.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

I need to check one of my links... Can you get it to work?

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.c/c/a53VxN8cwkY/m/XKl1-0a8DAAJ

This must mean that comp.lang.c is back up online wrt GG! Nice!

[David Brown]

On 05/07/2021 23:13, Keith Thompson wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.s...@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
>> As I recall Google has deleted the GG comp.lang.c archives. Half a
>> year ago? A year? And ditto for comp.lang.java? Not sure.
> [...]
>
> Please take a moment to check before making claims like that.

In particular, there is a vast difference between "deleted" and "made
temporarily inaccessible". Google disabled access to c.l.c and various
other groups via their groups interface. This was, as we all know, a
completely idiotic "throw out the baby instead of the bathwater"
solution to some bad posts. But to my knowledge, they did not /delete/
anything. (Well, they might have deleted a few crazy conspiracy posts,
but no one will cry long about that.)

>
> I just did a search on group.google.com for articles posted to
> comp.lang.c in 1998, and got 14,528 results:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.c/search?q=after%3A1998-01-01%20before%3A1998-12-31
>
> A bit of browing leads me to suspect that the archive may be
> incomplete, but it definitely exists.
>

I'm not sure it if was ever complete - did you (or anyone else) happen
to test it /before/ this nonsense?

It's good to see it is back online, anyway.

[James Kuyper]

On 7/6/21 2:22 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 05/07/2021 23:13, Keith Thompson wrote:

...

>> I just did a search on group.google.com for articles posted to
>> comp.lang.c in 1998, and got 14,528 results:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.c/search?q=after%3A1998-01-01%20before%3A1998-12-31
>>
>> A bit of browing leads me to suspect that the archive may be
>> incomplete, but it definitely exists.
>>
>
> I'm not sure it if was ever complete - did you (or anyone else) happen
> to test it /before/ this nonsense?

I've been participating in Usenet newsgroups since the early 90's, and
I've tried save copies of all of my posts. Sometimes I forgot, and
sometimes I lost saved archives, but I still have 10's of thousands of
messages saved. At one time, a decade or so ago, I did spot comparisons
of my archive with Google's. For randomly chosen messages from my
archive, about 80% were available in Google. For randomly chosen
messages in Google's archives, about 90% were available in my archive.
Those numbers rough guestimates from unreliable wetware memory - if I
ever wrote my results down, I no longer remember where I saved them.

[Real Troll]

On 06/07/2021 20:32, DFS wrote:
>
>
> How are you saving your own posts?
>
> I have various python code to pull posts off newsservers, if you're
> interested.


You don't need anything elaborate. When you post anything to the
newsgroups, a copy also goes into the Sent folder by default. You can
configure how this handled instead of everything saved to Sent folder
but it is a different topic for Thunderbird or for any newsclient you
are using.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <sc2cng$14hm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Yeah, but...

That works reasonably well, provided you are talking about the world, post,
say, about 2010, and that you are, in fact, using a Windows GUI newsclient
thingie, like, say, Thunderbird.

But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the
early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the
same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else)
did in the early 90s.

--
The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4
lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain
in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL:
http://user.xmission.com/~gazelle/Sigs/Noam

[Real Troll]

On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the
> early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the
> same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else)
> did in the early 90s.

Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere
when the user sends something. Even in the 90s when Netscape and Outlook
Express were two GUI news clients had a facility to save messages in
sent folder.

Now in the 21st century, there is even a better way to save all your
sent messages. The method I use is to initially save the messages in the
local folders and on a weekly basis, I drag the messages from sent
folder to my Yahoo account. Yahoo gives you 1TB of disk space free of
charge so make use of it. If they decide to close their free service
then they will give you at least 30 days notice so you'll need to find
other means of saving your messages.

However, if you are talking of very old messages and your copies are
lost then there is no way to get them back. In any case what is the
point of reading what happened in 1990. The technology have changed
quite a lot.

I am currently using Mozilla Thunderbird so it has better features and
easy to master. there is a newsgroup for Thunderbird here:
<news://news.aioe.org/alt.comp.software.thunderbird>. Or you could
search for: "alt.comp.software.thunderbird" in your news client. Your
service provider must have this newsgroup.

You can't rely on Google Groups because they are likely to be shut down
because Google is making a loss on them. There are no ads on that news
portal so why should they continue running it. Google is a business so
bottom line comes before anything else.

[Scott Lurndal]

Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> writes:
>On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>> But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the
>> early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the
>> same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else)
>> did in the early 90s.
>
>Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere
>when the user sends something.

Nope. See headers. Mine will save cancelled posts to ~/dead.letter
however.

[MrSpud_...@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net]

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000
Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> wrote:
>On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote:
>> But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the
>> early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the
>> same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else)
>> did in the early 90s.
>
>Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere
>when the user sends something. Even in the 90s when Netscape and Outlook
>Express were two GUI news clients had a facility to save messages in
>sent folder.
>
>Now in the 21st century, there is even a better way to save all your
>sent messages. The method I use is to initially save the messages in the
>local folders and on a weekly basis, I drag the messages from sent
>folder to my Yahoo account. Yahoo gives you 1TB of disk space free of
>charge so make use of it. If they decide to close their free service
>then they will give you at least 30 days notice so you'll need to find
>other means of saving your messages.

Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none
of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol
after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it
does the job and I can make it do whatever I want.

>You can't rely on Google Groups because they are likely to be shut down
>because Google is making a loss on them. There are no ads on that news
>portal so why should they continue running it. Google is a business so
>bottom line comes before anything else.

Lets hope they sell/give it away first instead of just binning the entire
Dejanews archive.

However if you want a free news server use aioe.org. Obviously being an
apparent hobby server it might vanish too suddenly but I've been using it
for at least 10 years now and its still going strong.

[Scott Lurndal]

MrSpud_...@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes:
>On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000

>Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none
>of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol
>after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it
>does the job and I can make it do whatever I want.
>

What makes you think we haven't?

[MrSp...@rm5.biz]

Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't.

[Kenny McCormack]

There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an
idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc)

trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use
it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of
functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle?

--
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

- Napoleon Bonaparte -

[Manfred]

Don't forget how cool is the wheel :)

[Lew Pitcher]

I can think of many possible reasons to (re)create an existing tool:
- the existing tools do not provide the functionality you require, or
- the existing tools do not provide the usability you require, or
- you wish to incorporate the tool's functionality into another tool, or
- the tool is unavailable on your platform, or
- you wish to learn how to write the tool, or
- you wish to attempt to improve the existing tools

FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib calls,
not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to
learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want
it to work.

What's /your/ excuse, Kenny?
--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2021-07-14, Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
> There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an
> idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc)

Someone is reinventing the literal wheel right now in the world of high
end bicycles, though.

[Eli the Bearded]

In comp.lang.c, Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
> There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an
> idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc)
>
> trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use
> it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of
> functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle?

I get the impression from news.software.readers that when people post
about creating new newsreaders these days the are looking for features
you don't get in tin/trn. Things like working well with multiple news
servers (track reading by message ID instead of by sequential id in news
spool) or working better with local personal cached copies instead of
copies on a remote shared server.

I can see a bit of appeal there, but not enough to actually go through
the exercise myself.

Elijah
------
typically is satisfied with bending trn to his will

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <202107141...@kylheku.com>,

I'd be interested to know more about that (as a cyclist myself).

Also, this whole sub-thread about re-inventing trn, makes me think of a
certain frequent poster who is always going on about how he's gonna
re-invent everything. Haven't heard from him in quite a while, though
(thankfully).

--
The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4
lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain
in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL:

http://user.xmission.com/~gazelle/Sigs/Aspergers

[MrSpu...@em8kceu_4l_721dw4ed0wc.biz]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:08:22 -0000 (UTC)
gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
>In article <scn1sn$1bjk$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, <MrSp...@rm5.biz> wrote:
>>On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:07:16 GMT
>>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>>MrSpud_...@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes:
>>>>On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000
>>>
>>>>Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none
>>>>of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol
>>>>after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it
>>>>does the job and I can make it do whatever I want.
>>>>
>>>
>>>What makes you think we haven't?
>>
>>Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't.
>>
>
>There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an
>idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc)

The irony of mentioning Linux there. But you probably won't get it :)

>trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use

It doesn't do everything I need. Given writing software to get and post
articles on usenet isn't exactly arduous (providing you understand networking)
and that it was a fun project to do , why shouldn't I write my own?

>it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of
>functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle?

It wasn't hassle and I like being able to use unix tools to parse the
downloaded articles.

[MrSpud_0...@uncf5cotva75ujdt.gov]

On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC)
Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib
>calls,
>not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to
>learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want
>
>it to work.

Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about
20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even
the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information
required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the
end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then
some things I never got working properly.

[Scott Lurndal]

Hm.. All the X11Rx code is open source; it's easy enough to use the
source of libX11, libXt, and libXaw as a reference.

[MrSpu...@1h0c.net]

The source of another window manager would be a lot more useful IMO as
looking at the source of the above won't show you how to use the required
APIs without doing some reverse engineering nor will it show you what to
use when.

[Lew Pitcher]

Thanks for the best wishes.

Yah, I'm about 50 pages into the Xlib manual, and have completed (and played with)
the basicwin example. And then, I left the manual alone, except for the reference
information.

I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I need
a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting together,
from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work.

I have a rudimentary edit widget, and a toggleswitch widget, and a way of abstracting
the event loop into widget/window event handlers, all cobbled together over the last
couple of weeks. I intend to build enough of a framework to familiarize myself with
the practice and pitfalls of Xlib, before I move on to other toolkits. The project
isn't really about building a DM; it's about learning Xlib. If I get a usable DM
from it, then "bonus", otherwise I will still have learned something.

[MrSpud...@ko9uz7rn4n552n6rutmfe.eu]

On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC)
Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I
>need
>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting
>together,
>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work.

It depends how much you want your WM to do. I did it in pure Xlib and
implemented button and menu widgets (thats all thats really needed) from scratch
which frankly isn't too hard. But sure, if you want a WM thats actually useful
you'll need a proper toolkit.

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 14.07.21 um 23:03 schrieb Kenny McCormack:

> Also, this whole sub-thread about re-inventing trn, makes me think of a
> certain frequent poster who is always going on about how he's gonna
> re-invent everything. Haven't heard from him in quite a while, though
> (thankfully).
>

Oh he's quite busy to tell the people over at the Python group that
their language is a bag of shite and slow as hell and that everything
will change once he finished the frontend for his fancy compiler.

Needless to say that there isn't even remotely something like a working
demo. The last checkin was few months ago.


Christian

[Lew Pitcher]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC)
> Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I
>>need
>>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting
>>together,
>>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work.
>
> It depends how much you want your WM to do.

Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time)
in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book
discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented
in Xlib.

My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM)
client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts
a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this,
I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto",
so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with.

> I did it in pure Xlib and
> implemented button and menu widgets (thats all thats really needed) from scratch
> which frankly isn't too hard. But sure, if you want a WM thats actually useful
> you'll need a proper toolkit.

True. And, as my skills grow, I will move up to X11 toolkits and other X11 clients.
I note, however, that most present-day toolkits present bindings in C++, and not
C, thus ruling them out as far as my development projects are concerned. This
leaves a very limited list of toolkits, with no middle ground. I could either code
for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall we
say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C bindings,
and have an over-architected UI. ISTM that we've lost the middle ground, as far
as C bindings are concerned.

[Anton Shepelev]

MrSpud:

> Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to
> comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none of them have written their
> own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol after all.
> I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI
> but it does the job and I can make it do whatever I want.

Regarding the reinvention of the wheel, I see nothing bad in
it as it helps you understand the wheel better than *any-
body* who have never (re)invented one, and perhaps even to
improve upon the original. Since there are so many good
newsreaders for the PC and almost none for mobile devices, I
wish I you wrote a GNKSA-compliant newsreader for Android
with mobile-device specifics such as soft-reflowing of the
text to screen width while keeping it hard-wrapped at 72-80
characters internally and in the posted article.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

[MrSpud_...@atc_rakxp6.info]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:33:23 -0000 (UTC)

Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC)
>> Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I
>>>need
>>>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting
>>>together,
>>>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work.
>>
>> It depends how much you want your WM to do.
>
>Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time)
>in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book
>discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented
>
>in Xlib.
>
>My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM)
>client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts
>a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this,
>I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto",
>so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with.

I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that
accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply
exec's the required WM or enviroment.

>for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall
>we
>say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C
>bindings,

Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on
modern systems.

[Lew Pitcher]

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:04:16 +0000, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:33:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>>>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I
>>>>need
>>>>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting
>>>>together,
>>>>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work.
>>>
>>> It depends how much you want your WM to do.
>>
>>Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time)
>>in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book
>>discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented
>>
>>in Xlib.
>>
>>My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM)
>>client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts
>>a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this,
>>I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto",
>>so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with.
>
> I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that
> accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply
> exec's the required WM or enviroment.

Not really. To satisfy a purely local login, you need a minimum of two input
edit fields: a Username that echoes typed characters and a password that doesn't.
If you add XDMCP into the mix (which I intend to do), you need an additional
field that allows you to pick the host to connect to from a list of eligible
hostnames. These three fields may require just one window, but more likely
require more. In my experimentation, I have 7 windows just to handle this
(a window for the Hostname, a window for the ScrollUp button, a window for
the ScrollDown button, a window to frame the ScrollUp/Hostname/ScrollDown
set, a window for the Username, a window for the Password, and a window to
frame the whole set).

Add to this a window for a localtime clock, a window for a terminal identification,
and a window for a DM identifier, and all the miscellaneous windows
needed to frame these presentation windows, and you have quite a number
of windows to manage.

Then, of course, there's the actual activities that the windows themselves
present. I have a clock, so I must format and present the time and date.
I have two text inputs, so I must write text editing code. I have a scrollable
selection window, so I must write logic to update the selection, and to handle
the ScrollUp and ScrollDown buttons.

And, then there's other, non-window logic, such as the logic to start the X
server (if necessary), the logic to validate usernames and passwords (both
locally and remotely), and the logic to start the user's WM of choice.

All in all, this project will teach me a great deal about writing X11 Xlib
application code, and about X11 in general. And that's the primary goal.

>>for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall
>>we
>>say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C
>>bindings,
>
> Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on
> modern systems.

Pish, tush.

I have, at my fingertips, the Athena widget set (both Xaw and Xaw3d), and Motif,
supplied as part of the Slackware Linux distribution I work in. I also have GTK+,
GTK+2, and GTK+3. Also QT and FLTK, should I want to work in C++.

[Manfred]

On 7/17/2021 5:04 PM, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r@atc_rakxp6.info wrote:
>> for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall
>> we
>> say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C
>> bindings,
> Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on
> modern systems.
>
>

Probably Lesstif, which, as far as I remember, is a FOSS clone of Motif.
But that was along time ago, so I may have missed some happening meanwhile.

[steve]

MrSpud_...@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes:

> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000
> Real Troll <real....@trolls.com> wrote:

[ ... this is a shameless plug ... ]

I have been using giganews (http://www.giganews.com) for over 10 years
and have had no problems. Sometimes you need to pay for quality service.
I wouldn't be surprised if google is spamming usenet groups so they can
snag the domain servers...

Just paranoid steve.

[MrSpu...@cligh74ct.info]

You can obviously add as many bells and whistles as you like, but ultimately
all you need for a basic login system is username and password - 1 window,
2 textboxes. For the other stuff you don't need a drop down, you could just
have them pre-listed which can then be clicked on, much simpler.

>And, then there's other, non-window logic, such as the logic to start the X
>server (if necessary), the logic to validate usernames and passwords (both
>locally and remotely), and the logic to start the user's WM of choice.

Basic *nix fork-exec stuff.

>> Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on
>> modern systems.
>
>Pish, tush.
>
>I have, at my fingertips, the Athena widget set (both Xaw and Xaw3d), and
>Motif,
>supplied as part of the Slackware Linux distribution I work in. I also have

I do have a soft spot for slackware - mainly the lack of the god awful
systemd - but its hardly a standard distro these days and was last updated 5
years ago so obviously not much happening these days. I doubt any of the
common distros will have those libraries installed so if you want it to be
used by others....

[Chris M. Thomasson]

[...]

Humm...

https://secure.login.gov/

;^)

[MrSpud_...@nl5uzoqa76.info]

Have a look at the MacOS login screen. 2 textboxs, nothing else (for normal
use), not even a window, just a background picture and a few buttons down
the bottom for reboot etc.

[Lew Pitcher]

You apparently misunderstand what I'm working with. X11 is a communications
protocol, with the "client" end implemented in Xlib and the server end implemented
in the X server.

X11 doesn't have "textboxes", and it's "windows" are simply rectangular regions
of the display that can be drawn on. Such a "window" can receive keystrokes and/or
mouse activity, if it chooses. I'm working at a much lower level than you think
I am.

As for "all you need ... is username and password", that might be true in a single
system network, but in a multi-system network, using the facilities of X11, I
also need a "hostname" to connect to (it may be "localhost", but, then again, it
may also be "desktop_computer.my.lan" or "game_server.my.lan"). For me, this
becomes a scrollable selector with three windows (a next-selection downarrow
window, a previous-selection uparrow window, and a selection output window).

What you are describing is a simple, one-system display manager implemented with
one of the X11 widget sets (such as GTK+, or QT or Athena), and not the more
comprehensive multi-system display manager that I'm trying to build.

[snip]

HTH

[MrSpud_...@wl4yrs_t67fb214q.gov]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:20:43 -0000 (UTC)
Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 07:50:50 +0000, MrSpud_2fxg wrote:
>> You can obviously add as many bells and whistles as you like, but ultimately
>> all you need for a basic login system is username and password - 1 window,
>> 2 textboxes. For the other stuff you don't need a drop down, you could just
>> have them pre-listed which can then be clicked on, much simpler.
>
>You apparently misunderstand what I'm working with. X11 is a communications
>protocol, with the "client" end implemented in Xlib and the server end
>implemented
>in the X server.

Given I already told you I wrote my own window manager (along with half a
dozen games and more utilities than I can count in the last 25 years) I'm
wondering why you think I need some patronising heads up on what constitutes
X11 and Xlib?

>X11 doesn't have "textboxes", and it's "windows" are simply rectangular regions
>
>of the display that can be drawn on. Such a "window" can receive keystrokes
>and/or
>mouse activity, if it chooses. I'm working at a much lower level than you
>think
>I am.

Writing your own buttons and textboxes in raw X11 is fairly trivial *IF* you
know the API well and arn't too fussed about pretty graphics.

>As for "all you need ... is username and password", that might be true in a
>single
>system network, but in a multi-system network, using the facilities of X11, I
>also need a "hostname" to connect to (it may be "localhost", but, then again,
>it
>may also be "desktop_computer.my.lan" or "game_server.my.lan"). For me, this
>becomes a scrollable selector with three windows (a next-selection downarrow
>window, a previous-selection uparrow window, and a selection output window).

Or you could have a textbox with intelligent autocomplete of hostnames since
presumably you'll have a list anyway if you're planning on having a pull down.

>What you are describing is a simple, one-system display manager implemented
>with
>one of the X11 widget sets (such as GTK+, or QT or Athena), and not the more
>comprehensive multi-system display manager that I'm trying to build.

No, I wasn't. But it doesn't matter, I was just trying to be helpful. You do
what you like.