Users needed

[woodb...@gmail.com]

I've been going "from strength to strength" (Psalms 84:7)
as far as making improvements to my software:
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
.

In order to keep the winning streak going, I'd
like to find some external users to help in terms
of providing valuable feedback. So, I'll spend
16 hours/week for six months on a project that
uses the C++ Middleware Writer. There's also a
reward for providing a successful reference. More
info here: http://webEbenezer.net/about.html
.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net.

[woodb...@gmail.com]

Here's an example of going from strength to strength:
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards/commit/afa9a0a962191668087dace9d682a115c17fa48d

[Brian Wood]

In this change I stopped using unique_ptr and the size of
this program decreased over 1%.
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards/commit/c08c0fce367dc01462b5a16d7799b6ecff5f3393

I'm not saying stop using unique_ptr, but in this case I think
it was a good move.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises
https://webEbenezer.net.

[Brian Wood]

Are there places where you suggest I switch from
using int to size_t

https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
? Tia

[Bonita Montero]

> In this change I stopped using unique_ptr and the size of
> this program decreased over 1%.

Wo cares about code-size of C++-programs ?
Look at table-driven exception-handling - fast but
generates a lot of "bloat" - which no one cares for.

[Brian Wood]

Do you mean no one cares about the bloat? When
you say, "no one cares for", it can mean -- no one wants
that. Anyway, when you are an entrepreneur, you have
to care about things that some people don't care about.

Brian

[Scott Lurndal]

He's saying that in the world of professional programming,
the size of the executable codefile is completely uninteresting
and not worth spending any time optimizing.

You should worry about finding someone to pay you first.

[Bonita Montero]

> He's saying that in the world of professional programming,
> the size of the executable codefile is completely uninteresting
> and not worth spending any time optimizing.

C++ is used mostly for large scale program development.
And for this purposes the code-size doesn't matter.

[David Brown]

I think you'll find that C++ is used for a wide variety of purposes, and
while code size doesn't matter in all cases, sometimes it does.

It also depends on what you mean by "code size". If you are talking
about a file on a disk, it usually doesn't matter much - especially on
systems that only load in the parts they need. But the size of the
active code sections can matter - the cache friendliness of important
parts of the code can make a significant difference to the speed. (Like
code size, often code speed is not particularly important - but
sometimes it is.)

Basically, when you make general statements about how C++ is used and
what is important, you will get it wrong.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

Exactly. Well done.

[James Kuyper]

On 1/25/21 3:46 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 25/01/2021 19:14, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>> He's saying that in the world of professional programming,
>>> the size of the executable codefile is completely uninteresting
>>> and not worth spending any time optimizing.
>>
>> C++ is used mostly for large scale program development.
>> And for this purposes the code-size doesn't matter.
>
> I think you'll find that C++ is used for a wide variety of purposes, and

No she won't - the only thing Bonita will ever find is what C++ is used
for by Bonita, and that apparently only includes large scale program
development.

[Vir Campestris]

On 25/01/2021 16:06, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> He's saying that in the world of professional programming,
> the size of the executable codefile is completely uninteresting
> and not worth spending any time optimizing.

Not always true.

We're writing code for embedded devices, and we keep running into the
storage size limits. We could of course make them bigger but (a) that
wouldn't help people who've already bought them and (b) it makes them
more expensive.

Andy

[daniel...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 4:13:58 PM UTC-5, james...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:

> the only thing Bonita will ever find is what C++ is used

> for by Bonita, and that apparently _only_ includes

Bonita didn't say that, she said "C++ is used _mostly_ for ..." Whether
that's true or not is an empirical question. I understand C++
is used a lot more in embedded, but I'm guessing that's still smaller
than "large scale development."

I don't understand why people feel the need to comment on the deficiencies
of the poster as opposed to the content of the post. It does no good to
the group. And to paraphrase my old grammar school teacher, when James
talks about Bonita, we learn more about James than we do about
Bonita.

Daniel

[Scott Lurndal]

I really doubt that Bonita has ever developed a large-scale program of
any type.

[Scott Lurndal]

Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On 25/01/2021 16:06, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> He's saying that in the world of professional programming,
>> the size of the executable codefile is completely uninteresting
>> and not worth spending any time optimizing.
>
>Not always true.

Well, we agree. The size of the loadable sections (e.g. 'text/data/bss'), is indeed
interesting. The size of codefile (ELF, COFF, PE), not so much.

[James Kuyper]

Yes, and what you learned about me was how annoyed I am at Bonita's
strong tendency to consider that her own personal experience is the
entire universe of possibilities that needs to be considered. I am
personally very well aware that there's a lot of different kinds of
programming being done out there, most of it quite different from the
kind I personally have any experience with.

[Jorgen Grahn]

The file size can be limiting, too, even in the server/desktop world.
I wanted to build our stuff with debug info included recently, but had
to give up since it increased disk usage greatly. (A factor 50 or
something: we use a lot of template metaprogramming.)

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[David Brown]

Are you using gcc? There are a few flags that affect the visibility of
symbols that might make a difference. (I do little desktop programming
in C++, so I haven't tried these myself - I've just come across them
when reading the reference manual.)

-fvisibility-inlines-hidden
-fvisibility=hidden


Also look at:

-gsplit-dwarf
-gz=zlib

[Bonita Montero]

> Basically, when you make general statements about how C++ is used and
> what is important, you will get it wrong.

Look at what I wrote. I didn't make a general statement.

[Öö Tiib]

Why you erase what you lie about from quote and remove
all attributions, asshole?

[David Brown]

If you followed Usenet conventions - as you have been asked, repeatedly
- with correct attributions and appropriate quoting, it would be
immediately obvious to you that you /did/ make a general statement.

(I'm going to assume you simply forgot what you wrote, or did not mean
to write quite what you did - rather than assuming you are deliberately
trying to be misleading.)

If you want to continue discussing in this newsgroup, it would be much
appreciated if you follow the practices and habits of the group. It is
basic courtesy. Some of the important rules are:

1. Quote appropriately, and snip appropriately.
2. Keep all attributions for everything that is quoted.
3. Read what other people post.
4. Do not deny having written things that everyone can see you wrote.
5. Learn from other people, and from your mistakes.
6. Admit when you are wrong, so we can all move along.
7. Understand that there are other people here that know better than you
do. Not about everything, perhaps - but about some things.

Until you make progress on the communication basics, I can't see it
being worth the effort trying to discuss anything C++ related with you.

[daniel...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 2:37:23 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
> On 26/01/2021 22:21, Bonita Montero wrote:
> >> Basically, when you make general statements about how C++ is used and
> >> what is important, you will get it wrong.
> >
> > Look at what I wrote. I didn't make a general statement.
> >
> If you followed Usenet conventions - as you have been asked, repeatedly
> - with correct attributions and appropriate quoting, it would be
> immediately obvious to you that you /did/ make a general statement.
>

Citation? Are you referring to this

Bonita Montero wrote:

> C++ is used mostly for large scale program development.
> And for this purposes the code-size doesn't matter.

Did you read the first sentence as expressing an "overarching truth",
which is a requirement for a "general statement"? Do you believe that
James was justified in substituting "only" for "mostly", when
commenting on it?

> Some of the important rules are:

> 2. Keep all attributions for everything that is quoted.

Indeed. That's a problem.

Daniel

[Jorgen Grahn]

Nice -- thanks! I do use gcc, and a recentish one, too.

I /did/ reflect on this when I saw that the debug info got that large:
it seemed to me a lot of people would have issues with the default
amounts of debug info (from heavily templated code). But I didn't dig
into the documentation, and anyway we had a compiler from 2014 back
then.

> Also look at:
>
> -gsplit-dwarf
> -gz=zlib

[Vir Campestris]

As it happens we've run out of flash before we've run out of RAM. ;)

(We have a lot of things in flash that aren't in RAM all the time.)

Andy

[Scott Lurndal]

We generally extract the text/data/rodata portions of the codefile into a flat
image for storage in flash, sometimes it is compressed for really small
non-volatile storage devices.

[Ian Collins]

Even on embedded Linux targets such as outs, there are hard limits to
FLASH segments for things like squashfs images. I have wasted/spent
much time fiddling with speed and performance optimisations to get
things to be fit and meet performance targets!

--
Ian