Failed interview test

[Christopher J. Pisz]

I've been taking some screening tests for interviews lately. I haven't
gotten any bites. I am starting to wonder if my code is yucky. Haven't
had problems getting jobs for the last 10 years.

Would anyone mind taking a look at one of these tests and the answers I
gave? I've already been passed on, and I took the name of the company
off. I asked for feedback, but they didn't bother giving me any :(

I uploaded Visual Studio projects and a text file with the questions here.

https://github.com/ChristopherPisz/Test-1

They seemed to be pretty damn standard questions. I can't imagine I got
them wrong.

Any feedback?

[Christopher J. Pisz]

P.S
They supplied all function stubs. I wouldn't never make functions with
names and arguments like that. :P

[Alf P. Steinbach]

:)

I'm looking at the first exercise, the linked list thingy.

I think one is supposed to use only linked list operations, not
`std::set`, otherwise the linked list itself doesn't make sense.

The straightforward implementation of the `optimal` function (which is
sort of like `std::unique`), simply searching the whole list for each
node encountered, is then O(n²), but I think that's what one is supposed
to submit. Since the initialization of the list in your code is O(n²),
it doesn't totally make sense to have better behavior in the `optimal`
function.

Better behavior can be achieved with only linked list operations, at the
cost of great complexity, by sorting a list whose nodes refer to the
original (merge sort is O(n log n)) and removing duplicates in that
sorted list, but. I think anyone submitting that would fail. Because a
company doesn't want employee to use looooong time on premature
optimization, unless it's contract work for Donald Trump.

Finally, I think maybe you're supposed to delete the nodes at the end.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf (experienced in failing evaluations by not-very-competent people).

[Christopher J. Pisz]

Fair enough. Should one suppose, when asked questions about data
structures, that they should not use the STL data structures or
algorithms therein?

I did it brute force for my first try, just iterating through the list
every insertion looking for the value to be inserted. Then I thought to
myself, we could has everything that has been inserted thus far and it
would be quicker then going through the entire list.

I don't know how to implement my own hash, so I just used std::set, not
really thinking about "I am implementing a data structure with another
data structure"...

I've always hated these kind of fake exercises where one should ignore
the STL and Boost. I always think to myself, "Why am I implementing a
linked list when one already exists that has been used by millions of
people for decades?" I understand they want to inquire as to whether the
interviewee understands complexity and how the data structures work though.

[pac...@gmail.com]

I only took an extremely quick look. You use assignment instead of initializers in the LinkedListNode constructor. I'd take a pass on any applicant who did that - but maybe that's just me.

--
Mark

[Christopher J. Pisz]

They made the node, not me. I had to use the node. :P
I only got to write the optimize function, given their stub.

[Christopher J. Pisz]

On 11/15/2016 5:34 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:

> "Christopher J. Pisz" <cp...@austin.rr.com> writes:
>> I uploaded Visual Studio projects and a text file with the questions here.
>

> I do not like to open web pages.
>


I think you can trust github....
but meh. If you don't want to help, you don't have to, it's help after all.

[JiiPee]

they made an error themselves and then "accuse" you of doing errors? :)

[Christopher J. Pisz]

I also pointed out to them that in question 7, they pass a
std::vector<string> by value and it would be better to be passed by
reference.

I dunno, didn't want to come off too arrogant.

I wanted to at least get in the door and then get a feel for their
competence. Now I am worried about my own. Not getting many callbacks.
I might just be paranoid, it is 4th quarter after all.

[JiiPee]

So all those 6-8 tasks are done by you?

On 15/11/2016 23:54, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
> I also pointed out to them that in question 7, they pass a
> std::vector<string> by value and it would be better to be passed by
> reference.
>
> I dunno, didn't want to come off too arrogant.

if i was an employer that would just be a positive comment

[Christopher J. Pisz]

Yea, I did 6-8 over a weekend. Made a project for each question. I had
to use their stubs and the code they gave for things things like the
LinkedListNode. It was originally an online timed test they wanted me to
do in 1.5 hours. I copied the questions into the text file. I told them
there was no way I'd get it done in 1.5 hours, but I'd be happy to do it
over a weekend. They agreed.

There were also 5 multiple choice questions in the form of "will the
following code compile?", but they were pretty trivial.

[JiiPee]

On 15/11/2016 20:05, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
>
>
> Any feedback?

7)
const std::string opens = "([{";
************

I would do: const std::string opens{"([{"};
not big issue though...

7)
// Iterate through each string

for(auto itString = values.begin(); itString != values.end(); ++itString)
**********
Why you did not use the new for loop:
for(const auto& value : values)
?

[JiiPee]

On 15/11/2016 20:05, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
>
>
> Any feedback?

7)

if (*itResultString == "NO")
***********

You are using that NO in several places. I would create at least a
constant at the top of the function, something like:
static const string NO{"NO"};

the same for YES.

7)
for (auto itResultString = nextFrameResults.begin(); itResultString !=
nextFrameResults.end(); ++itResultString)
***********
for(const auto& nextResult : nextFrameResults)

[JiiPee]

On 15/11/2016 20:05, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
>
>
> Any feedback?

8)
newStrings.push_back(std::shared_ptr<std::string>(new
std::string(currentString + 'e')));
###########

Cant you do this using make_shared? more safe

[woodb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 6:03:34 PM UTC-6, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
> On 11/15/2016 5:58 PM, JiiPee wrote:
> > So all those 6-8 tasks are done by you?
> >
> >
> > On 15/11/2016 23:54, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
> >> I also pointed out to them that in question 7, they pass a
> >> std::vector<string> by value and it would be better to be passed by
> >> reference.
> >>
> >> I dunno, didn't want to come off too arrogant.
> >
> > if i was an employer that would just be a positive comment
> >
> >>
> >> I wanted to at least get in the door and then get a feel for their
> >> competence. Now I am worried about my own. Not getting many callbacks.
> >> I might just be paranoid, it is 4th quarter after all.
> >
> >
>
> Yea, I did 6-8 over a weekend. Made a project for each question. I had
> to use their stubs and the code they gave for things things like the
> LinkedListNode. It was originally an online timed test they wanted me to
> do in 1.5 hours. I copied the questions into the text file. I told them
> there was no way I'd get it done in 1.5 hours, but I'd be happy to do it
> over a weekend. They agreed.
>

Their willingness to grant you that much is a good sign.
In my opinion you don't want to have to keep taking these
tests though over and over. Instead you could have a blog
and/or some open source code that demonstrate your abilities
when given years and decades. I should work on blogging
myself, but am happy to have worked on the latter idea
extensively. It represents my best work.

Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net

[JiiPee]

On 16/11/2016 01:52, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Their willingness to grant you that much is a good sign.
> In my opinion you don't want to have to keep taking these
> tests though over and over. Instead you could have a blog
> and/or some open source code that demonstrate your abilities
> when given years and decades. I should work on blogging
> myself, but am happy to have worked on the latter idea
> extensively. It represents my best work.

It is also true that in pressure people are not in their best. I
remember doing an interview test coding (create a simple card game) in
one interview. I think I got it working right (it seemed to run
correctly), but later on I found out that I did not use proper C++ ways
to do it in couple of things. At home I would do the same game much
differently and better :). So yes, they did not get my best performance
there. wrong or right? i donno but I surely can do better than that.
Also |I remember another simple interview test: "create a function which
calculates an average". Also there I forgot at least one thing which I
would definitely not forget if working at home.

[Christopher J. Pisz]

Certain books on interviewing point out that, that pressure is accounted
for, and some companies are actively looking for how you do under
pressure and highly stressed, because it supposedly relates to deadlines
and office pressure.

I disagree with that whole heartily, but people seem to think it.

Deadlines never effect my performance at all. I simply shrug and look at
them as what a manager wants, rather than something that impacts me at
all. Of course, I will prioritize features, or ask them to select them,
maybe point out that this or that has to suffer testing in the worst
case, but it never gets me stressed. Times tests on the other hand
stress me out out like crazy.

[JiiPee]

On 16/11/2016 07:54, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
> Certain books on interviewing point out that, that pressure is
> accounted for, and some companies are actively looking for how you do
> under pressure and highly stressed, because it supposedly relates to
> deadlines and office pressure.

I dont think couple of hours deadline is the same as one weeks (or one
months) deadline for example.
I would say that this kind of test gives some direction of what the
canditate can do... but not sure if it should be take literally.

But what else can the employer do? Surely its better than asking: "How
good are you? So you are excellent in creating classes.. thats good,
then we take you in!!".

But maybe best would be if they can see his long term work and/or work
done in one week/month.

>
>

[Louis Krupp]

Deleting the redundant nodes (if that's what you meant) would make
sense if, instead of creating a new linked list, the program just used
the original list and linked around the redundancies. The argument to
optimal() isn't const, so why not?

One thing to notice is that the data values are guaranteed to be in
the range 0 <= d <= 1000. The program could use a boolean array
indexed from 0 to 1000 to keep track of which data values have been
seen. That would give you an O(n) solution.

In the balanced braces question, it doesn't say that the input string
must consist of only braces, although that is true of their examples.

There are probably some strange but clever ways to solve that problem,
given that the strings are apparently guaranteed to be no more than
100 characters long. That sort of thing might or might not have been
what they were looking for.

One possibility is that the people doing the testing get a lot of
competently written solutions, and they're looking for the few that
really stand out. Are they missing some productive programmers (and
future managers) that way? My guess is that they are.

Louis

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 16.11.2016 09:16, Louis Krupp wrote:
> 0 <= d <= 1000

Where did you see that? I l00ked for it.


Cheers!,

- Alf (denying all rumors that I'm really Julian Assange!)

[Louis Krupp]

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:23:55 +0100, "Alf P. Steinbach"
<alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 16.11.2016 09:16, Louis Krupp wrote:
>> 0 <= d <= 1000
>
>Where did you see that? I l00ked for it.

From TestQuestions.txt:

================
Question 6

We define a redundant node in a singly-linked list to be a node whose
data value matches the data value of a previous node in the list. In
other words, given node node containing data value d , some node node
(where i < j) having data value d is redundant if d == d . For
example, given a zero-indexed linked list in the form list = {3, 4, 3,
2, 2}, the redundant nodes are located at indices 2 and 4.

Complete the optimal function in the editor below. It has one
parameter: a LinkedListNode, head , referencing the first node of a
singly-linked list. The function must return a LinkedListNode
referencing the first node of a list that contains only the
non-redundant nodes from the original list (and none of the redundant
ones). All non-redundant nodes must be in the same exact order as they
were in the original list.

Input Format

Locked stub code in the editor reads the following input from stdin
and passes it to the function:

The first line contains an integer, n, denoting the number of elements
in list. The second line contains n space-separated integers where
each integer i describes the data value of the i node in the list.

Constraints

Each list contains 10 nodes.

0 <= d <= 1000 <- Note that the file uses the left arrow character

Output Format

The function must return a LinkedListNode referencing the first node
of the optimized list. This is printed to stdout by locked stub code
in the editor.

Sample Input 0
83 <- I have no idea what this is.
4 3 2 6 1 2 6

Sample Output 0
34261

Explanation 0
Let's consider our list to be list = 3 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2 -> 6 -> 1 -> 2
-> 6, and refer to each node as list where 0 = i < n. We can make the
following statements:

* list = 3 is redundant to list = 3, because both nodes have matching
data values and list appears later in the list.
* list = 2 is redundant to list = 2, because both nodes have matching
data values and list appears later in the list.
* list = 6 is redundant to list = 6, because both nodes have matching
data values and list appears later in the list.

We then return a LinkedListNode referencing list = 3 -> 4 -> 2 -> 6 ->
1, which both preserves the initial ordering of all non-redundant
nodes and does not contain any redundant nodes.

For Reference:

/* LinkedListNode
* {
* int val;
* LinkedListNode* next;
* };
*
* LinkedListNode* optimal(LinkedListNode* head)
*/
================

Louis

[Alf P. Steinbach]

I see. They do not provide all the relevant information in the problem
statement. They tack some of it on later, perhaps not recognizing its
importance, or perhaps to trip up folks.

For 10 nodes big O performance doesn't matter.

Still, an array is easier to code up than traversing the list.


Cheers!,

- Alf

[Scott Lurndal]

"Christopher J. Pisz" <cp...@austin.rr.com> writes:

Problem #7 is a very simple grammar, suitable for a recursive descent
parser. You should only need to scan each input string once (and
for an invalid grammar, you'll likely bail early). All those calls to
find_first_of() are very inefficient.

[Christopher J. Pisz]

See bracesOptimized

[Louis Krupp]

Here's a relatively simple solution to #7. You'd get hired on the
spot, or you'd get eliminated for being weird. Either way, they'd
remember you:

===========================
#include <stdio.h>

static bool bmatch(const char *s)
{
const int N = 100;
char open_code[N];
int level = 0;
int i;
char c;

for (i = 0; i < N; i++) open_code[i] = 0;

while ((c = *s++)) {
int code = 0;
switch (c) {
case '{':
code += 1;
/* fall through */
case '[':
code += 10;
/* fall through */
case '(':
code += 100;
if (level >= N) return false;
open_code[level] = code;
level++;
break;
case '}':
code += 1;
/* fall through */
case ']':
code += 10;
/* fall through */
case ')':
code += 100;
level--;
if (level < 0) return false;
if (open_code[level] != code) return false;
break;
default:
break;
}
}

return true;
}

static void test(const char *s)
{
printf(">%s< %s\n", s, bmatch(s) ? "yes" : "no");
}

int main()
{
test(" ");
test(" () ");
test(" [] ");
test(" {} ");
test(" {}} ");
test( " {}] ");
test(" { [ ( ) ] } ");
test(" ( [ ( ) ] } ");
test(" { ( ( ) ] } ");
test(" { [ ( ) . } ");
test(" { . ( ) ] } ");
test(" { [ ([) ] } ");

return 0;
}
===========================

(Yes, you'd probably want to replace printf with something a little
more modern.)

Louis

[Christian Gollwitzer]

Am 16.11.16 um 20:54 schrieb Louis Krupp:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:05:08 -0600, "Christopher J. Pisz"

>> https://github.com/ChristopherPisz/Test-1

>>

> Here's a relatively simple solution to #7. You'd get hired on the
> spot, or you'd get eliminated for being weird. Either way, they'd
> remember you:
>
> ===========================
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> static bool bmatch(const char *s)
> {
> const int N = 100;
> char open_code[N];
> int level = 0;
> int i;
> char c;
>
> for (i = 0; i < N; i++) open_code[i] = 0;
>
> while ((c = *s++)) {
> int code = 0;
> switch (c) {
> case '{':
> code += 1;
> /* fall through */
> case '[':
> code += 10;
> /* fall through */
> case '(':
> code += 100;
> if (level >= N) return false;

Instead of the weird "code" thingy, if you would store the open brace in
the open_code array, then this seems like a reasonable algorithm.
Basically it implements a pushdown automaton to parse the neted braces.

In C++, one could use a vector<char> as the stack and eliminate the
arbitrary upper size limit


Christian

[Daniel]

On Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 3:05:20 PM UTC-5, Christopher J. Pisz wrote:
> I've been taking some screening tests for interviews lately.

Ah, interview questions.

Back in 2000, the Toronto based startup that I was doing a contract assignment
with got bought up by an American company, and being bought up usually meant
the decimation of the startup, sooner or later. With not much to do, I
sent a resume to to a California agency, and got back a contract opportunity at
a San Francisco on-line trading company to assemble and lead a web development
team which was a joint development with a New York based wealth management
company that they had just acquired. So I found myself on the phone having an
interview with a VP from the on line trading company. The interview was going
fine, except I felt an air of unreality about it, as my background was C, C++
and Java development, not web. Towards the end of the interview, I ventured
that I didn't have a lot of experience in web development (by which I meant
that I didn't have any), and whether that was going to be a problem. The VP
replied that she wasn't technical, and she would leave it up to the technical
guy in New York to decide. Anyway, when I had the interview with the
guy in New York, the subject of web never came up, and I received an offer.

I did run this by a friend of mine before accepting, expressing my
reservations. He was reassuring. Web development was easy, he said, we'd been
doing really hard C++ work for years, but web was easy. Thus encouraged, I
accepted the offer.

So I went to San Francisco, and had to hire a team. This was during the dot com
boom, my boss in San Francisco told me that anyone we interviewed we wanted to
hire, they'd best get that call on their cell phone as they left the building,
otherwise they would already be taken. I really wanted to hire someone who knew
something about web development, since I didn't know anything.

Everybody I interviewed, all supplied through agencies, were recent arrivals
from India. The first guy, I started with a question about architecture. I
listened really carefully to the answer, did it make sense? not make sense? I
simply couldn't tell. Maybe, I thought, it's a language issue. I glanced at his
resume and saw five years of experience with Java and EJB's.

Okay, I said, how do you create a new Java object? Gosh, darn, that was a
difficult question, you could see it on his face. With the create statement, he
hazarded, with just a hint of a question mark at the end of it, a surreptitious
glance, trying to gauge my reaction. I tried to keep my face blank.

So the interviewing went, interviewing guys with obviously fabricated resumes.
Fabricated by the agencies, most likely. Until we got to a young woman recent
graduate from the Mother Theresa school in India, who didn't know much either,
but she was obviously smart, her eyes didn't glaze over when I asked her
questions, she followed up with questions of her own when she didn't know
something, and her resume more or less reflected her knowledge. So we hired
her. Then I interviewed a husband and wife in succession, the husband was
obviously faking it, the wife was good so we hired her.

The project was a success.

Daniel
https://github.com/danielaparker/jsoncons

[Richard]

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

som...@somewhere.net spake the secret code
<o0fpom$jpd$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:

>Would anyone mind taking a look at one of these tests and the answers I
>gave? I've already been passed on, and I took the name of the company
>off. I asked for feedback, but they didn't bother giving me any :(

OK, here's some general feedback on your responses:

- code is legible with judicious use of whitespace without underdoing
it or overdoing it
- I didn't try it, but this looks like code that builds. You'd be
amazed how many people submit code that doesn't build!
- If this was a Windows shop, they won't object to VS solutions.
However, if this was a Linux/Mac shop, that might turn them off
(maybe they don't have a Windows machine with VS to load the
solution?) If you included a CMakeLists.txt along with your
generated VS solution from that, that would tell them you know
CMake and understand something about adapting to different
platforms
- Assuming the github repo represents what you sent them, you only
included the VS files that *should* be in version control. This is
good as it shows that you know what files can be ignored and which
ones you should keep.
- There are no unit tests. To me, this is a big negative when
evaluating a candidate for hire. All other things being equal, I
will prefer a less experienced candidate that knows TDD over a more
experienced candidate that doesn't demonstrate any knowledge of unit
testing.
- You did have driver code for your implementation, which is good,
but it requires human observation to verify the output was correct.
It proves that your code integrates properly into an executable,
but it doesn't serve as an automated integration test.

If you're unfamiliar with unit testing and test-driven development
in C++, try my TDD workshop from C++Now! 2014:
<https://github.com/boostcon/cppnow_presentations_2014/tree/master/files/test_driven>

I have written a series of blog posts on TDD in C++ using VS:
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/c-unit-tests-with-boost-test-part-1/>
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/c-unit-tests-with-boost-test-part-2/>
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/c-unit-tests-with-boost-test-part-3/>
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/c-unit-tests-with-boost-test-part-4/>
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/c-unit-tests-with-boost-test-part-5/>

I have also written a blog post for job seekers/interviewers:
<https://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/advice-for-software-engineering-job-seekers-and-employers/>

Maybe there's something useful in there for you. Every employer
and interviewer is different, so I can't guarantee that the things I
care about are the things they care about :-).

Some things I asked every C++ programmer in an interview that most
got wrong:
- what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?
- write the declaration for "constant pointer to constant character"
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 18.11.2016 01:18, Richard wrote:
>
> Some things I asked every C++ programmer in an interview that most
> got wrong:
> - what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?
> - write the declaration for "constant pointer to constant character"

Is this really true?

I remember at an interview once I was afraid that the interviewer
wouldn't understand my use of a reference argument. Apparently at that
point I had been exposed to an overwhelming number of incompetents,
forming my reference for what an average developer was like. But I
always thought, at least later on, that that was specific to the
consulting business, and not so in software development in general?


Cheers!,

- Alf

[Christopher J. Pisz]

I'd really hope someone applying for a senior position can tell you the
difference between a reference and a pointer.

This seems to be everyone's favorite question though. They asked me that
as well.

I told them one was an amperstand and one was a shiny star.
After a second pause, I told them:
) That a reference is an alias, while a pointer is a value that is a
memory location.
) You can i perform arithmetic on a pointer, while you cannot on a reference
) You can assign NULL to a pointer, while a reference should never be NULL

[Gareth Owen]

r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

> "Christopher J. Pisz" <cp...@austin.rr.com> writes:

>>>> - what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?

>>) That a reference is an alias, while a pointer is a value that is a
>>memory location.
>>) You can i perform arithmetic on a pointer, while you cannot on a reference
>>) You can assign NULL to a pointer, while a reference should never be NULL
>

> The question was about "/the/ difference", the answers are
> /several/ differences. So, they do not answer the question
> about /the/ difference.

I hope my employers would never employ anyone who started their answer
like that. If you think conversational English should be interpreted
like a programming language, you would be a nightmare to work with.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 18.11.2016 02:43, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Christopher J. Pisz" <cp...@austin.rr.com> writes:

>>>> - what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?

>> ) That a reference is an alias, while a pointer is a value that is a
>> memory location.
>> ) You can i perform arithmetic on a pointer, while you cannot on a reference
>> ) You can assign NULL to a pointer, while a reference should never be NULL
>

> The question was about "/the/ difference", the answers are
> /several/ differences. So, they do not answer the question
> about /the/ difference.

“The difference” is just a common expression. If an interviewer insists
that it means a single difference, then either the guy is stupid, or
he's (dishonestly) treating you like you're stupid, having you on. In
either case say goodbye to that firm.


> A reference is a variable that was declared as a reference
> type (involving »&VARNAME« or »&&VARNAME« or equivalent).
> But only »decltype« can sense this afterwards.
>
> A pointer is an object whose expression has pointer type.

In standardeese a “variable” is a named “object”.

For completeness: an object is a region of storage, with an associated
type. And a region of storage needs not be contiguous. Main example:
diamond inheritance.

But functions can return references, i.e. unnamed references, so it's
not the case that a reference is necessarily formally a variable.


> A reference usually /is/ a memory location. Proof: one
> usually can take its address:
>
> int i; int & r = i; escape( &r ); /* &i==&r BTW */

A reference always refers to a memory location in the “as if” sense.

You can always take the address.


> . One /can/ perform arithmetics on a reference sometimes:
>
> int i {}; int & r = i; escape( r + 1 );

This is not arithmetic on the reference: it's arithmetic on what the
reference refers to.

There is no reference arithmetic in the language.


> . nullptr /can/ be assigned to a reference sometimes
>
> int * i; int * & r = i; r = nullptr; escape( r ); /* !r */

Ditto, this is not assignment of a nullpointer to a reference: it's a
assignment to what the reference refers to.

A reference can't itself be null in a valid program.

It can be null with Undefined Behavior, by dereferencing a nullpointer,
but, because of the UB, you can't reliably detect that.


> . (I can't use a compiler right now, so all of the above
> is untested and IIRC.)

Uhm, it's not clear what you meant with the `escape`.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

[asetof...@gmail.com]

Difference from reference and pointer? Pointers read write the memory use '*' instead reference not. Reference are useful for write argument for C++ operators because what is passed is not the value
but in practices a pointer
This is because operators can not have their arguments pointers at Last I remember so
Is it possible doing
+(int*, int*)?
What about a language where all objects are references?
type a, b;
a and b are one address that contain the type returned from &a and &b
a and b their value returned from a, b
when pass a to a function it is an address...

[JiiPee]

I personally hate that (that there is no deep copy by default). I think
Java, or was is javasript, did that... and i Had nightmares to work with
that... becouse sometimes I wanted a normal copy and its difficult
there. I just like how C++ does it.. its logical that a = b mean full
copy and not a pointer or reference copy by default, becouse thats what
I am expecting to get.

[Mr Flibble]

On 18/11/2016 10:20, Stefan Ram wrote:

> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 18.11.2016 02:43, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> . One /can/ perform arithmetics on a reference sometimes:
>>> int i {}; int & r = i; escape( r + 1 );
>> This is not arithmetic on the reference: it's arithmetic on what the
>> reference refers to.
>

> 3p6 said »The variable's name, if any, denotes the
> reference or object.«. So above, the name »r«
> denotes the reference. So, in »r + 1«, »r« denotes
> the reference, and arithmetics is done on it.

No. The arithmetic is being done on what the reference refers to. There
is pointer arithmetic but there is no such thing as reference arithmetic.

/Flibble

[Richard]

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<o0lj3n$4rv$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:

>On 18.11.2016 01:18, Richard wrote:
>>
>> Some things I asked every C++ programmer in an interview that most
>> got wrong:
>> - what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?
>> - write the declaration for "constant pointer to constant character"
>
>Is this really true?

Over a period of 4+ years I interviewed quite a few people and this
was the case with the people I interviewed. However, the job market
is tight here and recruiters tell me "if you want good talent, you
have to steal it from another company". Most of the people I
interviewed were in the early part of their career and while some
people answered these questions, most people failed.

Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
part to understand, and that's the part they missed. The same ones
that missed that generally fumbled with the syntax as well. Maybe
lots of people just think 'C++ is C with classes' and don't dig any
further into it, or maybe the good people just needed to be poached
from other companies instead of approaching us when we had an
opening. Or maybe our manager just sucked ass (he did).

[Ian Collins]

On 11/19/16 10:01 AM, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
> <o0lj3n$4rv$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:
>
>> On 18.11.2016 01:18, Richard wrote:
>>>
>>> Some things I asked every C++ programmer in an interview that most
>>> got wrong:
>>> - what's the difference between a reference and a pointer?
>>> - write the declaration for "constant pointer to constant character"
>>
>> Is this really true?
>
> Over a period of 4+ years I interviewed quite a few people and this
> was the case with the people I interviewed. However, the job market
> is tight here and recruiters tell me "if you want good talent, you
> have to steal it from another company". Most of the people I
> interviewed were in the early part of their career and while some
> people answered these questions, most people failed.

Most of the people we recruit here are from off-shore. I can only see
that pool of available good talent growing in the light of recent events...

--
Ian

[Paavo Helde]

On 18.11.2016 23:01, Richard wrote:
> Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
> them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
> part to understand, and that's the part they missed.

For me, the most important difference is that one is object and the
other is not. From the language viewpoint this is the most drastic
difference, if something is not an object, then it does not (logically)
have an address, it does not (logically) occupy memory, and in general
acts more like some kind of compile-time feature than a run-time entity.

OTOH, the point about not having "null references" is pretty arbitrary,
the language could have easily introduced an "alias for no object", and
it is easy to actually construct one via simple code which is UB only
because the standard says so. So while the non-nullness is an important
difference, it's not a fundamental one.

Cheers
Paavo

[Ben Bacarisse]

Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> writes:

> On 18.11.2016 23:01, Richard wrote:
>> Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
>> them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
>> part to understand, and that's the part they missed.
>
> For me, the most important difference is that one is object and the
> other is not. From the language viewpoint this is the most drastic
> difference, if something is not an object, then it does not
> (logically) have an address, it does not (logically) occupy memory,
> and in general acts more like some kind of compile-time feature than a
> run-time entity.

The term pointer can refer to a value as well, so it's more accurate to
say that a pointer value *may* be stored in an object -- you can't
really say, as a general rule, that pointers *are* objects.

Conversely, the C++ standard declines to say whether a reference
variable takes up any storage (it is "unspecified") so in some rather
unhelpful sense a reference might be stored in an object. It's
unhelpful because, as you say, you can never do anything "object-like"
with it even if it is.

Interestingly, references have a lifetime which is determined by their
"storage duration". That's to make the description in the standard
simpler -- you can't infer that they really do have storage.

> OTOH, the point about not having "null references" is pretty
> arbitrary, the language could have easily introduced an "alias for no
> object", and it is easy to actually construct one via simple code
> which is UB only because the standard says so. So while the
> non-nullness is an important difference, it's not a fundamental one.

It's also possible to construct invalid references without UB. The use
of them will be UB, of course, but the point is that being null is not
the only way a reference can be invalid.

This illustrates a problem with "what's the difference between.." and
"what's important about..." questions. In effect it can be a guessing
game if it really means "what do I think is the most important thing
about...". The best thing would be to ask very open questions to get
candidates to talk about subjects in a guided way so you can determine
how deeply they understand them. Even if they don't hit your "target
points", you will find out of they are clear thinkers with a good
grounding.

--
Ben.

[Paavo Helde]

On 19.11.2016 13:43, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>
>> On 18.11.2016 23:01, Richard wrote:
>>> Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
>>> them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
>>> part to understand, and that's the part they missed.
>>
>> For me, the most important difference is that one is object and the
>> other is not. From the language viewpoint this is the most drastic
>> difference, if something is not an object, then it does not
>> (logically) have an address, it does not (logically) occupy memory,
>> and in general acts more like some kind of compile-time feature than a
>> run-time entity.
>
> The term pointer can refer to a value as well, so it's more accurate to
> say that a pointer value *may* be stored in an object -- you can't
> really say, as a general rule, that pointers *are* objects.

In C++ an object is a region of memory. A pointer in C++ is a
first-class object.

Cheers
Paavo

[Ben Bacarisse]

What does new return if not a pointer? Is nullptr not a pointer? Does
the unadorned term always refer to a pointer object in technical
conversation about C++?

--
Ben.

[Paavo Helde]

Re-reading your post I now see that this is just about terminology -
should the term "pointer" refer foremost to objects or values. Standard
says of course that "pointer" foremost means a type and there can be
both objects and values of that type. If there is a confusion one has to
clarify what is meant.

So, it appears I should have worded my claim more carefully: there are
objects of pointer types, but there are no objects of reference types.

Cheers
Paavo

[Mr Flibble]

However a reference may occupy a region of storage like a pointer object.

/Flibble

[Paavo Helde]

On 20.11.2016 14:45, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
> However a reference may occupy a region of storage like a pointer object.

It may or may not. The standard says:

"It is unspecified whether or not a reference requires storage."

Even if it does occupy storage, one cannot directly find the address and
size of that storage. At best one can *guess* such info from the address
and size of an enclosing object which logically contains the reference.

Cheers
Paavo

[Mr Flibble]

On 20/11/2016 15:50, Paavo Helde wrote:
> On 20.11.2016 14:45, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>
>> However a reference may occupy a region of storage like a pointer object.
>
> It may or may not. The standard says:

[snip]

What I said was correct. Saying something "may" do something is
equivalent to saying something "may or may not" do something with the
second bloated form containing more superfluous redundancy than the
first so STOP BEING SO FUCKING PEDANTIC YOU ANNOYING CUNT.

/Flibble

[woodb...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-6, Mr Flibble wrote:

Please don't swear here.

Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net

[red floyd]

On 11/20/2016 10:29 AM, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-6, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
> Please don't swear here.
>

Shut the fuck up about it already.

[Daniel]

On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 1:29:12 PM UTC-5, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-6, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
> Please don't swear here.
>

CNN had an article about how Trump's insults embolden secret sexists, nonetheless,
I'm hopeful that Mr Flibble's use of the C word was an aberration, in this
newsgroup.

Daniel

[Richard]

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> spake the secret code
<98ydnX1dP830E7LF...@giganews.com> thusly:

>On 18.11.2016 23:01, Richard wrote:
>> Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
>> them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
>> part to understand, and that's the part they missed.
>
>For me, the most important difference is that one is object and the
>other is not. From the language viewpoint this is the most drastic
>difference, if something is not an object, then it does not (logically)
>have an address, it does not (logically) occupy memory, and in general
>acts more like some kind of compile-time feature than a run-time entity.

Pointers occupy memory.

Pointers have addresses.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

No reason not to also include Bill's flamboyant adventures into the
realm of touching, and other unwanted exotic oddities...

I really do not trust either of them! Gross.

Damn.

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 11/21/2016 6:56 PM, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> spake the secret code
> <98ydnX1dP830E7LF...@giganews.com> thusly:
>
>> On 18.11.2016 23:01, Richard wrote:
>>> Re: difference between reference and pointer, all I wanted to hear
>>> them say is "references can't be null". To me, that's the important
>>> part to understand, and that's the part they missed.
>>
>> For me, the most important difference is that one is object and the
>> other is not. From the language viewpoint this is the most drastic
>> difference, if something is not an object, then it does not (logically)
>> have an address, it does not (logically) occupy memory, and in general
>> acts more like some kind of compile-time feature than a run-time entity.
>
> Pointers occupy memory.
>
> Pointers have addresses.
>

Maybe. If the code never takes the address of the pointer, it could
very easily reside in a register and not occupy any memory.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstu...@attglobal.net
==================

[Daniel]

On Monday, November 21, 2016 at 8:19:25 PM UTC-5, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

> No reason not to also include Bill's flamboyant adventures ..

You know, for a moment I thought you were referring to some other
newsgroup participant, one whose name I didn't recognize off hand...

> I really do not trust either of them!

And for a moment I thought you were referring to this Bill and Mr Flibble :-)

In any case, even though this forum does not appear to have many female
visitors, I hope that none of us would wish to make them feel unwelcome with
our words.

Daniel

[David Brown]

Mr Flibble's language is not going to scare anyone away from this group.
His /attitude/ is sometimes a bit aggressive, and far too stubborn for
his own good - but his language is not so "colourful" as to be a problem.

Of course, with Brian pointing out every little word that his mummy
won't let me say, everyone here sees the swear words that would
otherwise have passed unnoticed. If anything would make someone feel
unwelcome in this group, it is Brian's obsession about swearing -
closely followed by incomprehensible nonsense about sausages from Mr.
Flibble.

Oh, and why would you think women would feel specially hurt by Mr.
Flibble's words? That sounds sexist to me. If I called you a dick
(which I would not do), would that be particularly insulting to all male
visitors to the group?

[Christopher J. Pisz]

What about those that identify as sprinkled donuts?

[David Brown]

I guess we'll have to avoid jokes about policemen's diets, to avoid
hurting their feelings.

[Daniel]

On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 2:43:16 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
>
> Oh, and why would you think women would feel specially hurt ...

I never suggested that members of the female persuasion would feel especially
hurt. Just that they would probably not be inclined to visit a forum where the
c..t word was liberally used, which is suggestive of the grade school level social
skills of young adolescent boys.

Best regards,
Daniel

[David Brown]

Fair enough. I think many people would not be inclined to stay in a
place where such words were used liberally.

I just don't think it is worth fussing about occasional swearing, and
Brian's auto-responder for swearing is more annoying and simply
encourages worse language. It reminds me of a car I once saw at
university with a talking car alarm. If you bumped the car it would say
things like "Please step back for the car". Of course, the car was
covered in dents and scratches made by students who wanted to hear what
it would say next!

[Tim Rentsch]

Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> writes:

> On 20.11.2016 14:45, Mr Flibble wrote:
>
>> However a reference may occupy a region of storage like a pointer object.
>
> It may or may not. The standard says:
>
> "It is unspecified whether or not a reference requires storage."

What a silly thing to say. This sounds like someone trying to
fool themselves into thinking a reference is not just a pointer
in disguise. Better to say a reference does occupy storage in
the abstract machine, and let the as-if rule take care of things.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

No, it's a tecnically precise thing to say. The standard defines the
term “unspecified”:

C++11 §1.3.25 [defns.unspecified]:
“
unspecified behavior
behavior, for a well-formed program construct and correct data, that
depends on the implementation
[Note: The implementation is not required to document which behavior
occurs. The range of possible behaviors is usually delineated by this
International Standard. —end note ]
”

A language standard is not a tutorial or textbook.


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

[Tim Rentsch]

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 22.11.2016 15:58, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> Paavo Helde <myfir...@osa.pri.ee> writes:
>>
>>> On 20.11.2016 14:45, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>
>>>> However a reference may occupy a region of storage like a pointer object.
>>>
>>> It may or may not. The standard says:
>>>
>>> "It is unspecified whether or not a reference requires storage."
>>
>> What a silly thing to say. This sounds like someone trying to
>> fool themselves into thinking a reference is not just a pointer
>> in disguise. Better to say a reference does occupy storage in
>> the abstract machine, and let the as-if rule take care of things.
>
> No, it's a tecnically precise thing to say. The standard defines the

> term 'unspecified': [...]

Yes, I understand what unspecified means. My objection is not
that the statement is imprecise but that it's a poor choice of
semantic definition, because it needlessly adds fuzziness. Not
fuzziness about what the words mean, but fuzziness about how
programs behave. Who was it who said something recently about
C++ gratuitously introducing unreliable behavior? This is
another example.

[woodb...@gmail.com]

Perhaps you would benefit from reading about the war on
science:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/real-war-science-14782.html

"The Left saw scientists as the new high priests, offering them
prestige, money, and power. The power too often corrupted. Over
and over, scientists yielded to the temptation to exaggerate
their expertise and moral authority, sometimes for horrendous
purposes."

"the modern Left has become obsessed with silencing heretics. "

David and others are obsessed with silencing voices that
stand up to them. They accuse me of "fussing," but I'm not
the one trying to hide the elephant in the room -- the C++
Middleware Writer.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net

[Mr Flibble]

Elephant in the room? Have you stopped taking your medication again Brian?

Sausages.

/Flibble

[David Brown]

No, I doubt if I would benefit from that. From your brief summary here,
and a quick look at the page, I can see absolutely no relevance to
anything I wrote, anything related to the thread, or anything related to
this newsgroup.

> David and others are obsessed with silencing voices that
> stand up to them. They accuse me of "fussing," but I'm not
> the one trying to hide the elephant in the room -- the C++
> Middleware Writer.
>

I accuse you of fussing about swearing - needlessly, pointlessly,
repetitively, and counter-productively. I believe it is a perfectly
fair accusation, and I think everyone in this group who has expressed an
opinion on the matter feels roughly the same.

You are not a "voice standing up to me" - I rarely swear, and not
without good reason, and I don't like unnecessary or excessive swearing.
I just find your repeated moans about other people swearing to be far
more irritating than any swearing from others, and they invariably
provoke more swearing in response. It is a truly idiotic and annoying
habit you have, and I wish you would stop.

In general, of course, I am quite happy for you to express your opinion
as you want - and I have no desire to silence you (even if I had the
power to do so).

As for the C++ Middleware Writer being "the elephant in the room" -
well, I know the project means a lot to you, and I wish you every
success. But I don't know anyone else in this group that uses it or
thinks it is a useful idea, let alone the sort of revolutionary idea you
apparently believe. However, I have nothing against you talking about
it, and I cannot comprehend why you think I might have.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 23.11.2016 00:50, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> writes:

>> The standard defines the
>> term "unspecified":
>> C++11 §1.3.25 [defns.unspecified]:
>> "
>> unspecified behavior
>> behavior, for a well-formed program construct and correct data, that
>> depends on the implementation
>

> This defines »unspecified behavior«, not »unspecified«.
> »Unspecified« means »unspecified« as in English, there is no
> need to define it.
>
> »Unspecified« = »not specified«, the meaning of »specified«
> derives regularly from the meaning of »to specify«.
>
> The first sentence of our beloved standard is:
>
> »This International Standard specifies requirements for
> implementations of the C++ programming language.«
>
> . This sentence already uses the verb »to specify«, and when
> someone does not know what this means, he needs to learn English.
>

Just trust me on this.

Or consult an English professor. ;-)


Cheers!,

- Alf

[Richard]

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<o1388p$m8i$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:

>Just trust me on this.

Or just KILL file Stefan Ram and this newsgroup becomes more enjoyable.

[woodb...@gmail.com]

The swearing is repetitive and counter-productive. Others and I
have made the point that it is counter-productive many times.

>
>
> As for the C++ Middleware Writer being "the elephant in the room" -
> well, I know the project means a lot to you, and I wish you every
> success.

I wonder if someone could persuade Leigh that he shouldn't
mess with the C++ Middleware Writer entry on the wikipedia
page about serialization. As I said previously, I'm willing
to make it clear that the user who is recommending the software
is also a developer of the software.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - Whereas it is the duty of all nations to
acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to
be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection
and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their
joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the
United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer ..." George Washington

http://webEbenezer.net

[woodb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:23:11 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.stein...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
> <o1388p$m8i$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:
>
> >Just trust me on this.
>
> Or just

"If you set a trap for others, you will get caught in it yourself."
Proverbs 26:27

[Daniel]

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 7:52:13 PM UTC-5, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I wonder if someone could persuade Leigh that he shouldn't
> mess with the C++ Middleware Writer entry on the wikipedia
> page about serialization.

I could offer to take over from him for a while, if that would help.

> As I said previously, I'm willing
> to make it clear that the user who is recommending the software
> is also a developer of the software.
>

You know that Wikipedia does not accept entries from primary sources. To be
mentioned in wikipedia, a secondary source must be cited.

Best regards,
Daniel

[Mr Flibble]

Your fussing about swearing in this forum is repetitive and
counter-productive.

>
>>
>>
>> As for the C++ Middleware Writer being "the elephant in the room" -
>> well, I know the project means a lot to you, and I wish you every
>> success.
>
> I wonder if someone could persuade Leigh that he shouldn't
> mess with the C++ Middleware Writer entry on the wikipedia
> page about serialization. As I said previously, I'm willing
> to make it clear that the user who is recommending the software
> is also a developer of the software.

Myself and others will continue to prevent you from advertising your
software on Wikipedia.

/Flibble

[woodb...@gmail.com]

I was reading drudgereport.com today and there's a story
about two Saudi women being punished for their potty mouths.

http://heatst.com/world/saudi-women-sentenced-to-20-lashes-for-swearing-on-whatsapp/

Though it seems your offenses are worse than theirs,
I wouldn't sentence you to 20 lashes or the jail time
that they received for their potty mouths.

> >
> >>
> >>
> >> As for the C++ Middleware Writer being "the elephant in the room" -
> >> well, I know the project means a lot to you, and I wish you every
> >> success.
> >
> > I wonder if someone could persuade Leigh that he shouldn't
> > mess with the C++ Middleware Writer entry on the wikipedia
> > page about serialization. As I said previously, I'm willing
> > to make it clear that the user who is recommending the software
> > is also a developer of the software.
>
> Myself and others will continue to prevent you from advertising your
> software on Wikipedia.
>

This is further financial attack against me similar to this lady

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/18/hundreds-support-christian-florist-fined-for-refusing-to-work-gay-wedding.html

I've never thought of charging atheists to use my service,
but these attacks against me make me reconsider that.

[Mr Flibble]

Oh I forgot that you are a homophobic bigot Brian. Unlike when choosing
to follow a religion, sexual orientation, gender and race are not
choices so it should be illegal to discriminate based on them so the
fine is appropriate. An atheist florist refusing to serve a Christian
would be entirely appropriate however as being Christian is a lifestyle
choice that is itself discriminatory.

>
> I've never thought of charging atheists to use my service,
> but these attacks against me make me reconsider that.

Nobody cares.

/Flibble

[David Brown]

On 25/11/16 18:00, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:35 AM UTC-6, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On 25/11/2016 00:52, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:18:29 PM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 22/11/16 19:38, woodb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 6:25:22 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 22/11/16 12:47, Daniel wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 at 2:43:16 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:

>>>> I accuse you of fussing about swearing - needlessly, pointlessly,
>>>> repetitively, and counter-productively.
>>>
>>> The swearing is repetitive and counter-productive. Others and I
>>> have made the point that it is counter-productive many times.

Occasional swearing is harmless. The repetitive swearing I see in this
groups is almost entirely in response to your idiotic "please don't
swear" posts. Stop being such a petty, self-righteous prude about
language, and the swearing will mostly stop. It is win-win for everyone.

>>
>> Your fussing about swearing in this forum is repetitive and
>> counter-productive.
>>
>
> I was reading drudgereport.com today and there's a story
> about two Saudi women being punished for their potty mouths.
>
> http://heatst.com/world/saudi-women-sentenced-to-20-lashes-for-swearing-on-whatsapp/
>
> Though it seems your offenses are worse than theirs,
> I wouldn't sentence you to 20 lashes or the jail time
> that they received for their potty mouths.
>

Saudi Arabia has an obscene and inhumane legal system. I presume you do
not consider it a model for follow - so why bring it up? No one here
has committed any offences. The women in the report (assuming, for the
moment, that it is true - Drudge Report is not known for its accuracy)
broke the law in their country, and were punished according to those
laws. The laws there may be terrible, but they are still the law of
that country. Mr. Flibble has broken no laws of any sort in his posts,
as far as I can tell.

>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for the C++ Middleware Writer being "the elephant in the room" -
>>>> well, I know the project means a lot to you, and I wish you every
>>>> success.
>>>
>>> I wonder if someone could persuade Leigh that he shouldn't
>>> mess with the C++ Middleware Writer entry on the wikipedia
>>> page about serialization. As I said previously, I'm willing
>>> to make it clear that the user who is recommending the software
>>> is also a developer of the software.
>>
>> Myself and others will continue to prevent you from advertising your
>> software on Wikipedia.
>>
>
> This is further financial attack against me similar to this lady

No, it is not an "attack" on you or your products or business. Quite
simply, Wikipedia is not an advertising site. Its rules require that
someone other than the developer and seller of your Middleware Writer
should write such articles. If /you/ write it, it would be advertising
- just as if Mr. Flibble were to write an article describing how Flibble
Sausages were the most delicious in the world, and anyone can order them
from his website.

So find one of your satisfied customers, and ask /them/ to write an
article (in their own words - not re-posting /your/ words). If there
are no customers or users of the Middleware Writer who find it so useful
that they are willing to make this effort, then perhaps it is not
software that is interesting enough to bother having it mentioned on
Wikipedia.

As it stands, every time you break the rules of Wikipedia, someone fixes
the breakage - that sounds fair enough to me.

>
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/18/hundreds-support-christian-florist-fined-for-refusing-to-work-gay-wedding.html
>

That is a /completely/ different situation, and bears no comparison to
people who want to stop you from damaging Wikipedia.

It can be a legally complicated area the extent to which a service
provider (such as a shop) can arbitrarily refuse to serve someone.
Basically, you need good reason to do so. Depending on the details of
the jurisdiction, various types of discrimination are directly illegal.
For example, in most European countries, discriminating by sexuality is
illegal. It is also illegal in about half the states in the USA. But
for some reason, some states reserve the right to be stuck in the middle
ages and allow discrimination against gays. It goes against the
fundamental American ideas of freedom and equality, but some people have
never really bothered about those principles.

> I've never thought of charging atheists to use my service,
> but these attacks against me make me reconsider that.
>

That would be illegal, as well as unethical. It would also demonstrate
a total lack of understanding about the issue - there are plenty of
homosexual Christians (as well as homosexuals of other religions), and a
great many more Christians who are quite happy to let other people be
their natural selves. Equally, there are plenty of atheists who are
bigots about sexuality.

You are free to have your own beliefs about religion or any other kind
of superstition. You are also free to make your own choices about your
sexuality (to the extent that it is under your concious control). You
are /not/ free to impose them on other people, in any way.

[woodb...@gmail.com]

http://www.dailywire.com/news/11861/wake-trump-democrats-suddenly-discover-freedom-ben-shapiro

"Suddenly, it seems, the left has discovered freedom of association.
After years of telling religious people that they had a moral
and legal obligation to throw out their religion and serve same-sex
weddings, provide contraception, and fund abortion, the left now
realizes that the ability to pick and choose those to whom you give
your services is actually rather vital.

Don’t expect it to last.

Of course artists should be able to turn down clients. So should
religious bakers. But you won’t see the left acknowledge that.
The only freedom to turn down clients is the freedom for leftists
to turn down conservative and religious clients, not the other
way around."

Ben would be happy to know that I have the freedom to turn
down clients also. Freedom isn't free and this freedom of
mine has come at a price.