Re: Any developers here?
Onideus Mad Hatter
wrote:
>>>Most of my career has been system and network administration....with
>>>some scripting thrown in.
>>>
>>>Now, I'd like to try my hand at programming....but not sure where to
>>>start. I was wondering if anyone here could recommend a good beginner
>>>language. Python? C? Etc....
>>>
>>>Pretend that I know nothing about programming, because....well,
>>>essentially, I don't. I know a little about C, used to do BASIC, but
>>>that's outmoded now.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>Well, the first thing to keep in mind is that you don't need to go by
>>the individual languages, you need to go by the TYPE of programming
>>you want to learn. There are four main types:
>>
>>1. machine code
>>2. object oriented
>>3. scripting
>>4. markup
>>
>>And those are listed in order of complexity. There are actually TONS
>>of others, but I think it's best to kind of simplify things. Here's a
>>full list though if you're interested:
>>: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_list_of_programming_languages
>>
>>What you need to ask yourself though is whether you want to be a
>>spaghetti programmer, or a real programmer. Spaghetti programmers can
>>only work within specific languages and they work primarily by copying
>>and pasting prebuilt code segments, essentially the equivalent of a
>>script kiddy. They don't really understand how the programming
>>language itself works, and in a lot of cases they don't even
>>understand the programming syntax. They can usually do real basic
>>things on their own, but anything complex requires them to hunt out
>>code segments made by other people.
>>
>>It's like the difference between someone who can speak, say, French,
>>and someone who is a linguist who can, effectively, speak *ANY*
>>language, because they understand the nature and root of all
>>languages. The former, those who can only speak one language, they
>>work by simply memorizing words, they don't actually understand the
>>language though or how it really works.
>>
>>Now you can start off small, or you can start off at the top, it
>>doesn't really make a big difference I think. I started out by
>>learning object oriented programming, then went to markup, then to
>>scripting, and now I work primarily with object oriented via
>>ActionScript in Flash.
>>
>>You should try and pick a language that has syntax that you're
>>comfortable with. I personally *HATE* C++, I think it has absolutely
>>shit syntax and isn't very intuitive at all, especially compared to
>>other languages like PHP and ActionScript. Some languages are also
>>more "forgiving" than others, in that there are usually several
>>different ways of achieving the same thing, so if you fudge a little
>>on the syntax it'll likely still work. HTML is probably the most
>>forgiving language there is...primarily because the language has no
>>clear, set standards in place. Effectively every browser maker on the
>>planet can make their own version of HTML and this is why there are so
>>many cross browser compatibility issues. True there is the
>>RECOMMENDED "standards" set forth by the W3C, but no one really
>>follows those to the exact lettering. So because of that, making a
>>website that's fully W3C compliant will likely result in a website
>>that breaks on any number of browsers.
>>
>>If you actually understand HOW programming languages work, then the
>>only thing you really need to be able to program, is a reference
>>manual. The online ones for PHP are probably the absolute best:
>>: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/langref.php
>>: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/funcref.php
>>: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/internals2.php
>>
>>The one for Flash is also pretty good:
>>: http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/action_scripts/actionscript_dictionary/
>>
>>Adobe also has a great set of tutorials and learning guides for Flash:
>>: http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/
>>
>>As well as good community/group support:
>>: http://groups.adobe.com/pages/home
>>
>>And if you use SwishMax like I do then there are the Swish Forums:
>>: http://forums.swishzone.com/
>>
>>If you want to learn programming though you'll need some kind of goal
>>in mind. I mean if you want to learn programming just because you
>>want to learn programming, or because you think it'll look good on a
>>resume...no, you're not going to learn anything that way. You need to
>>figure out *WHAT* you want to do, then pick a language best suited for
>>that goal as well as a language that has good syntax. Then from there
>>you can learn through the construction of whatever it is you're trying
>>to build.
>>
>>The alternative is to get a textbook, like nyah:
>>: http://www.amazon.ca/How-Program-Harvey-M-Deitel/dp/0130895717
>>
>>But good luck with that though. It's gonna be *REALLY* fuckin boring
>>and you aren't going to enjoy it much at all and you probably won't
>>get much out of it.
>>
>>That book by the way does have an excellent reference section for C++,
>>which is why I recommend it for that language. The tutorials/learning
>>parts of it though aren't terribly interesting at all.
>>
>>I would say that if you're looking to learn a programming language so
>>that you can "make more money" or "get a better job", then you're
>>effectively setting yourself up for failure. You're *NOT* going to be
>>any good at programming unless you either ENJOY doing it, or ENJOY
>>what you can use it for, as a tool. If you have no other interest in
>>it other than selfish greed, yeah, yer not gonna get very far, yer
>>gonna get really frustrated, yer gonna be incredibly bored, and yer
>>likely just gonna give it up and quit before you even really get
>>started.
>>
>>So again, have a goal in mind. Don't learn programming to learn
>>programming, learn programming because you need to use it as a tool in
>>order to build something you want. It'll come more naturally that way
>>and you'll actually enjoy learning it.
>Where exactly did you learn your definition of "spaghetti programming"?
>This refers to code that jumps all over, where if you were to look at a
>flowchart of the logic, it would resemble a bunch of "spaghetti" (get
>it?). It does NOT have anything to do with "someone who copies/pastes
>other programmers' code."
I didn't "learn" the definition anywhere, I made it up myself.
Although I usually refer to it as "spaghetti bitched" code or
"spaghetti bitching". The definition you're referring to is REAAALLY
freakin OLD, and completely out dated. Structured programming has
pretty much abolished "spaghetti programming" as you're referring to
it. See here:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_number
"Largely due to the prevalence of interactive text editing in modern
operating systems, line numbers are not a feature of most programming
languages."
I call it "spaghetti bitched" in that your program is made up of
hundreds of different "noodles" or parts/code segments that you
bitched out of someone else's code, the end result being a complete
mish mosh of unrelated code segments, the individual code segments
representing the noodles, scattered together and twisted about
incoherently.
--
Onideus Mad Hatter
mhm � x �
http://www.backwater-productions.net
http://www.uncensored-inter.net
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-------------
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"Next time slow up a lil, then maybe you won't jump the gun and start
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"People are pretty fucking high on themselves if they think that
they're just born with a soul. *snicker*...yeah, like they're just
givin em out for free."
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Intelligence is down 137 points across the board and the forecast
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gee...that's too bad...for YOU!" `, )
Onideus Mad Hatter
By the by, this is a *REALLY* great example of right brained vs left
brained. Someone whose overly analytical, left brained, would like
the old definition better in that they can create a diagram/flowchart
in which they can visually see the "noodles" via order/pattern
perception. My definition is very right brained in that it requires
creativity and spatial perception to "see" the "noodles".
As such, most programmers, who are inherently left brained, probably
don't much like my definition...which would explain your lil outburst
here (assuming of course you're actually a programmer and not simply
mouthing off for the fuck of it).
I can use both sides of my brain equally (although I usually slide a
bit towards the right), this is how I can be so good at coding whilst
simultaneously being so good at graphic design. And it's also why I
can easily combine the forms to create new, interesting ideas and
concepts.
As mentioned before, I created the very *FIRST* "true" web
application, in the MP3 player I built for my CB site (in the songs
section):
http://www.the-care-bears.net
I could not have accomplished that design on my own without being able
to use both sides of my brain equally.
Wavy G
"Onideus Mad Hatter" actually had to say:
Wow. That was a really, REALLY long way to go to avoid saying "Oops, I
misused a term."
--
[censored]
Onideus Mad Hatter
wrote:
Reading...not really yer strong suit, innt it? *nods*
That's okay though, my posts rarely cater the "lowest common
denominator" (you). Generally speaking if you only have a 6th grade
reading level like yourself yer not gonna get much out of my posts.
Nick Keighley
On 28 Aug, 22:00, Onideus Mad Hatter <use...@backwater-
productions.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:47:39 -0400, Wavy G <Kingof...@WassamattaU.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>Most of my career has been system and network administration....with
> >>>some scripting thrown in.
>
> >>>Now, I'd like to try my hand at programming....but not sure where to
> >>>start. I was wondering if anyone here could recommend a good beginner
> >>>language. Python? C? Etc....
Python's a pretty good beginner's language. reasonably forgiving with
a good collection of libraries. Runs on lots of platforms.
> >>>Pretend that I know nothing about programming, because....well,
> >>>essentially, I don't. I know a little about C, used to do BASIC, but
> >>>that's outmoded now.
<snip>
> >>Well, the first thing to keep in mind is that you don't need to go by
> >>the individual languages, you need to go by the TYPE of programming
> >>you want to learn. There are four main types:
>
> >>1. machine code
> >>2. object oriented
> >>3. scripting
> >>4. markup
bollocks. A lot of the code I write is non-of-the-above. And "markup"
isn't really programming.
> >>And those are listed in order of complexity.
reverse order I assume.
> >> There are actually TONS
> >>of others, but I think it's best to kind of simplify things.
"To every complex problem there is a simple solution... and it is
wrong."
-- Turski
<snip>
> >>What you need to ask yourself though is whether you want to be a
> >>spaghetti programmer, or a real programmer. Spaghetti programmers can
> >>only work within specific languages and they work primarily by copying
> >>and pasting prebuilt code segments, essentially the equivalent of a
> >>script kiddy. They don't really understand how the programming
> >>language itself works, and in a lot of cases they don't even
> >>understand the programming syntax. They can usually do real basic
> >>things on their own, but anything complex requires them to hunt out
> >>code segments made by other people.
be aware that Mad Hatter has just made this definition up out of thin
air.
Spagetti code already has a well defined meaning so don't use his.
What
he describes is nearer to "Script Kiddy". Someone who just reuses
stuff he finds lieing around without any understanding.
<snip>
> >>Now you can start off small, or you can start off at the top,
what does "at the top" mean?
> >>it
> >>doesn't really make a big difference I think. I started out by
> >>learning object oriented programming, then went to markup, then to
> >>scripting, and now I work primarily with object oriented via
> >>ActionScript in Flash.
>
> >>You should try and pick a language that has syntax that you're
> >>comfortable with. I personally *HATE* C++, I think it has absolutely
> >>shit syntax and isn't very intuitive at all, especially compared to
> >>other languages like PHP and ActionScript.
PHP is intuitive and has nice syntax?!
<snip>
> >Where exactly did you learn your definition of "spaghetti programming"?
> >This refers to code that jumps all over, where if you were to look at a
> >flowchart of the logic, it would resemble a bunch of "spaghetti" (get
> >it?). It does NOT have anything to do with "someone who copies/pastes
> >other programmers' code."
>
> I didn't "learn" the definition anywhere, I made it up myself.
dumb thing to do.
> Although I usually refer to it as "spaghetti bitched" code
why? You are using "bitched" in sense I am unfamiliar with.
Is this rap-speak or something?
> or
> "spaghetti bitching". The definition you're referring to is REAAALLY
> freakin OLD, and completely out dated. Structured programming has
> pretty much abolished "spaghetti programming"
if only
> as you're referring to
> it. See here:
> :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_number
>
> "Largely due to the prevalence of interactive text editing in modern
> operating systems, line numbers are not a feature of most programming
> languages."
compiler error messages still use line numbers. I turn on
line numbers in my text editor.
> I call it "spaghetti bitched" in that your program is made up of
> hundreds of different "noodles" or parts/code segments that you
> bitched out of someone else's code, the end result being a complete
> mish mosh of unrelated code segments, the individual code segments
> representing the noodles, scattered together and twisted about
> incoherently.
maybe a term that needs a name. But not "spagetti code".
> --
>
> Onideus Mad Hatter
> mhm ¹ x ¹http://www.backwater-productions.nethttp://www.uncensored-inter.net
<snip>
could you reduce your sig length?
Nick Keighley
<snip>
> >I call it "spaghetti bitched" in that your program is made up of
> >hundreds of different "noodles" or parts/code segments that you
> >bitched out of someone else's code, the end result being a complete
> >mish mosh of unrelated code segments, the individual code segments
> >representing the noodles, scattered together and twisted about
> >incoherently.
>
> By the by, this is a *REALLY* great example of right brained vs left
> brained.
it certainly is. It shows how useless the terms "left brained" and
"right brained" are. It's up there with astrology and refelexology.
> Someone [who's] overly analytical, left brained, would like
> the old definition better in that they can create a diagram/flowchart
> in which they can visually see the "noodles" via order/pattern
> perception. My definition is very right brained in that it requires
> creativity and spatial perception to "see" the "noodles".
actually a flowchart is a good way to deal with spagetti code
<snip>
Ivan Marsh
> On 28 Aug, 22:57, Onideus Mad Hatter <use...@backwater-
> productions.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:00:06 -0700, Onideus Mad Hatter
>
> <snip>
>
>> >I call it "spaghetti bitched" in that your program is made up of
>> >hundreds of different "noodles" or parts/code segments that you
>> >bitched out of someone else's code, the end result being a complete
>> >mish mosh of unrelated code segments, the individual code segments
>> >representing the noodles, scattered together and twisted about
>> >incoherently.
>>
>> By the by, this is a *REALLY* great example of right brained vs left
>> brained.
>
> it certainly is. It shows how useless the terms "left brained" and
> "right brained" are. It's up there with astrology and refelexology.
Actually is neuroscience, and though this may be a poor example the
hemispheres of your brain do serve different functions.
--
"All right, all right, if it will make you happy, I will overthrow society."
- Philip J. Fry