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Is it OK to OCCASIONALLY submit C++ code for comments in this group, like RFC?
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Robert Hutchings
Sep 26, 2014, 2:52:15 PM9/26/14
to
As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review.
Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to
constructive criticism....
-> Rob Hutchings
Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to
constructive criticism....
-> Rob Hutchings
Richard
Sep 26, 2014, 3:06:11 PM9/26/14
to
[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
Robert Hutchings <rm.hut...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<m04cki$vsj$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:
I would suggest posting a link to a github repository. Many people
may not be aware of it, but github allows you to comment on a changeset.
This allows the commenter the full ability to use markdown for links,
embedded images, etc. The comments remain attached to the revision
and you can have entire threads focused on a particular piece of code
in the revision.
You can then update the code with a new revision and iterate with
your reviewers.
There are also open source packages designed specifically for code
review that integrate with source code control systems. Off the top
of my head, I can think of three:
- Gerrit <https://code.google.com/p/gerrit/>
- Review Board <https://www.reviewboard.org/>
- Phabricator <http://phabricator.org/>
There are probably others. At my work, we use review board for
everything. The Clang/LLVM project has started using Phabricator:
<http://reviews.llvm.org/>
If you just want some personal feedback, I'd suggest starting with
the facility built into github.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Robert Hutchings <rm.hut...@gmail.com> spake the secret code
<m04cki$vsj$1...@dont-email.me> thusly:
may not be aware of it, but github allows you to comment on a changeset.
This allows the commenter the full ability to use markdown for links,
embedded images, etc. The comments remain attached to the revision
and you can have entire threads focused on a particular piece of code
in the revision.
You can then update the code with a new revision and iterate with
your reviewers.
There are also open source packages designed specifically for code
review that integrate with source code control systems. Off the top
of my head, I can think of three:
- Gerrit <https://code.google.com/p/gerrit/>
- Review Board <https://www.reviewboard.org/>
- Phabricator <http://phabricator.org/>
There are probably others. At my work, we use review board for
everything. The Clang/LLVM project has started using Phabricator:
<http://reviews.llvm.org/>
If you just want some personal feedback, I'd suggest starting with
the facility built into github.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
woodb...@gmail.com
Sep 26, 2014, 3:28:22 PM9/26/14
to
it. I've gotten a lot of good advice from this newsgroup.
Brian
Ebenezer Enteprises - Heavenly code.
http://webEbenezer.net
Christopher Pisz
Sep 26, 2014, 3:33:42 PM9/26/14
to
you are likely to just get responses telling you to do so. Noone is
going to bother going through the code when it is in production form
with tons of references that aren't listed.
But if you post in the form, here is what I want to do, here are the
needed classes and here is my test driver, then you'll probably get good
feedback.
Vir Campestris
Sep 27, 2014, 5:08:50 PM9/27/14
to
On 26/09/2014 19:51, Robert Hutchings wrote:
> As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review.
> Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
Before you post anything - make sure you aren't giving away any
> As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review.
> Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
commercial secrets. They don't have to be valuable for them to get very
cross with you.
Andy
Robert Hutchings
Sep 28, 2014, 10:18:15 AM9/28/14
to
On 9/26/2014 1:51 PM, Robert Hutchings wrote:
Unfortunately, my employer has forbidden me (or anyone) from posting
code on the internet, citing "Intellectual Property" issues. I am not
sure that I agree with that, but, as an employee, I am bound by their
decision. Thanks again to all!
JiiPee
Sep 28, 2014, 4:38:59 PM9/28/14
to
post here? :)
Robert Hutchings
Sep 28, 2014, 4:46:35 PM9/28/14
to
JiiPee
Sep 28, 2014, 5:37:29 PM9/28/14
to
woodb...@gmail.com
Sep 28, 2014, 8:26:01 PM9/28/14
to
have code reviews. It also seems strange they don't
have some open source code that you could post and discuss.
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - I am the vine, you are the branches;
he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for
apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide
in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they
gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15: 5,6
http://webEbenezer.net
David Brown
Sep 29, 2014, 3:30:41 AM9/29/14
to
the copyright, and they decide what may or may not be done with it. You
are not free to post it or even discuss it without the employer's
consent. And your employer is absolutely correct in making a blanket
"everything we write is top secret intellectual property" statement, and
only opening up for specific cases - this is the way most companies
work. (There are others that are much more open, and gain many benefits
from that, but that should only come after hard thought and discussion -
everything secret is the default position.)
You are also expected to be loyal to your employer, and not publicly
criticise or condemn them (unless you suspect them of illegal or
unlawful activity, which may include conning customers if you think the
quality is not as high as it should be - but in that case a public
newsgroup is not the right place to report it). If your employer sees
the way you wrote about their code review policy, they would be
justified in reprimanding you - and if you are unfortunate enough to
live in a country like the USA which has almost no employee protection
laws, they may even be able to fire you on the spot.
If you think you have ideas that could improve your development process,
such as code reviews within the company or discussing code snippets in
public forums, then you should be discussing it with your colleagues and
management - you can't take it upon yourself to change or ignore the
policies of your company.
Jorgen Grahn
Sep 29, 2014, 6:32:19 PM9/29/14
to
immediately if I ever posted anything I created while getting paid.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
JiiPee
Sep 29, 2014, 7:18:58 PM9/29/14
to
On 29/09/2014 08:30, David Brown wrote:
> On 28/09/14 16:17, Robert Hutchings wrote:
>> On 9/26/2014 1:51 PM, Robert Hutchings wrote:
>>> As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review.
>>> Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
>>>
>>> This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to
>>> constructive criticism....
>>>
>>>
>>> -> Rob Hutchings
>> I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this subject.
>> Unfortunately, my employer has forbidden me (or anyone) from posting
>> code on the internet, citing "Intellectual Property" issues. I am not
>> sure that I agree with that, but, as an employee, I am bound by their
>> decision. Thanks again to all!
> When you work for someone else, they own the code you write. They own
> the copyright, and they decide what may or may not be done with it.
When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
> On 28/09/14 16:17, Robert Hutchings wrote:
>> On 9/26/2014 1:51 PM, Robert Hutchings wrote:
>>> As I become more proficient in C++, I often wish for a peer review.
>>> Unfortunately, my current employer does NOT "do" code reviews (!).
>>>
>>> This would only be an occasional thing, and I am very receptive to
>>> constructive criticism....
>>>
>>>
>>> -> Rob Hutchings
>> I want to thank everyone for their thoughts on this subject.
>> Unfortunately, my employer has forbidden me (or anyone) from posting
>> code on the internet, citing "Intellectual Property" issues. I am not
>> sure that I agree with that, but, as an employee, I am bound by their
>> decision. Thanks again to all!
> When you work for someone else, they own the code you write. They own
> the copyright, and they decide what may or may not be done with it.
the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
at home. Is this really true as well? Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
outside work is theirs.
Robert Hutchings
Sep 29, 2014, 7:43:19 PM9/29/14
to
my employer, how can they claim it as "their" IP? THAT makes no sense
to me...
Christopher Pisz
Sep 29, 2014, 7:51:53 PM9/29/14
to
On 9/29/2014 6:18 PM, JiiPee wrote:
own works _related to the company's business_, which is reasonable. If
you have a blurb in your paperwork sweeping everything without that
condition, than I'd mention it. If you have a project worth anything,
i.e a game engine you've been working on for 5 years, I A) Wouldn't
recommend working for a game company B) Would get written papers stating
that you will retain ownership and that they have been notified that
this work was underway before your employment.
Stuart
Sep 30, 2014, 3:37:16 AM9/30/14
to
On 09/30/14, JiiPee wrote:
> When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
> the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
> at home. Is this really true as well? Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
> disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
> time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
> understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
> company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
> outside work is theirs.
Well, they can say anything they want, that's the beauty of freedom of
> When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
> the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
> at home. Is this really true as well? Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
> disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
> time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
> understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
> company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
> outside work is theirs.
speech. Whether it is legally sound or not is quite another story. Here
in Germany your landlord can put a clause into your contract that you
have to paper the walls regularly. However, such a clause is illegal in
Germany and has therefore no effect. Worse, it can nullify the whole
contract - which is why they put an severability clause into the
contract as well. If your contract does not contain such a clause,
things may turn out to be very interesting, indeed.
Just out of curiousity: If you write a virus in your spare time which
destroys all atomic weapons in the world (good job IMHO), and the
Russians and the US Army are looking for someone to shoot, would it be
your head in the block or your bosses? After all, it was _his_ code... ;-)
Regards,
Stuart
PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I worked
for the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
David Brown
Sep 30, 2014, 3:45:02 AM9/30/14
to
fact, I believe it is the default legal position. The reasoning is
basically that if you work for them as a professional programmer, then
when you program you do so as a professional. Thus when you are
programming, you are working - you are therefore either working for them
(and they own the code), or you are moonlighting (which is illegal) and
competing against your own employer.
Of course it is usually possible to form agreements about what this
covers, such as distinguishing between different types of programming,
or for specific cases - just as you can take a second job with agreement
from your main employer.
A good employer will be happy to reach an accord of some sort - as long
as you are not tiring yourself out with hobby programming to late at
night (and thus unable to do your real job as well as you could), and as
long as you are not competing with them in some way, then it is usually
fine.
The same thing applies in many professions, and there have been
countless cases of disagreement when someone has made an invention at
home that their employer then claims. So it is best to get details of
such agreements in writing - especially if you are doing something that
might turn out to be valuable.
seeplus
Sep 30, 2014, 3:59:30 AM9/30/14
to
On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:37:16 PM UTC+10, Stuart wrote:
>It turns out that my
> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
Haa!
>It turns out that my
> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
Who can take in all those Ts and Cs that companies stick in there.
Did you see that experiment setting up a free Wi-Fi hotspot
in London recently.
{ When people connected to the hotspot, the terms and conditions
they were asked to sign up to included a "Herod clause" promising
free Wi-Fi but only if "the recipient agreed to assign their
first born child to us for the duration of eternity".
Six people signed up.}
Osmium
Sep 30, 2014, 7:58:07 AM9/30/14
to
"Stuart" wrote:
> Well, they can say anything they want, that's the beauty of freedom of
> speech. Whether it is legally sound or not is quite another story. Here in
> Germany your landlord can put a clause into your contract that you have to
> paper the walls regularly. However, such a clause is illegal in Germany
> and has therefore no effect. Worse, it can nullify the whole contract -
> which is why they put an severability clause into the contract as well. If
> your contract does not contain such a clause, things may turn out to be
> very interesting, indeed.
>
> Just out of curiousity: If you write a virus in your spare time which
> destroys all atomic weapons in the world (good job IMHO), and the Russians
> and the US Army are looking for someone to shoot, would it be your head in
> the block or your bosses? After all, it was _his_ code... ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Stuart
>
> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I worked for
> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
> Well, they can say anything they want, that's the beauty of freedom of
> speech. Whether it is legally sound or not is quite another story. Here in
> Germany your landlord can put a clause into your contract that you have to
> paper the walls regularly. However, such a clause is illegal in Germany
> and has therefore no effect. Worse, it can nullify the whole contract -
> which is why they put an severability clause into the contract as well. If
> your contract does not contain such a clause, things may turn out to be
> very interesting, indeed.
>
> Just out of curiousity: If you write a virus in your spare time which
> destroys all atomic weapons in the world (good job IMHO), and the Russians
> and the US Army are looking for someone to shoot, would it be your head in
> the block or your bosses? After all, it was _his_ code... ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Stuart
>
> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I worked for
> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
A friend of mine wrote Science Fiction as a hobby. Our company refused to
give him permission to have it published since it might reflect badly on the
company.
Drew Lawson
Sep 30, 2014, 8:27:43 AM9/30/14
to
In article <mNlWv.358129$J62.1...@fx03.am4>
agreement. If this was in that agreement, then it is true. Depending
on jurisdiction, some parts of that agreement may not be enforcable.
The agreements I've been under have included:
1) The company owns anything done on company time and company
equipment, if it relates to the main business interests of the
company.
2) The company owns anything done on company equipment.
3) The company owns any IP created during my employment, unless
explicitly dislaimed. Any patents I receive must be assigned
to the company.
I think I'm currently under #3, but I haven't had reason to look
recently.
In some circles, #3 is called things like "the IBM rule," as they
were well known for having and enforcing that. If you were working
on the Great American Novel, it was recommended to pass it by HR
and get acknowledgement that it was a personal work.
>Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
>disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
>time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
>understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
>company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
>outside work is theirs.
Somewhat, this is for legal convenience. How do you prove that
your project was done on your home computer, rather than on the
company's dime?
--
Drew Lawson | "But the senator, while insisting he was not
| intoxicated, could not explain his nudity."
n...@notvalid.com writes:
>When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
>the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
>at home. Is this really true as well?
When you took that job, you most likely signed an employment
>When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
>the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
>at home. Is this really true as well?
agreement. If this was in that agreement, then it is true. Depending
on jurisdiction, some parts of that agreement may not be enforcable.
The agreements I've been under have included:
1) The company owns anything done on company time and company
equipment, if it relates to the main business interests of the
company.
2) The company owns anything done on company equipment.
3) The company owns any IP created during my employment, unless
explicitly dislaimed. Any patents I receive must be assigned
to the company.
I think I'm currently under #3, but I haven't had reason to look
recently.
In some circles, #3 is called things like "the IBM rule," as they
were well known for having and enforcing that. If you were working
on the Great American Novel, it was recommended to pass it by HR
and get acknowledgement that it was a personal work.
>Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
>disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
>time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
>understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
>company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
>outside work is theirs.
your project was done on your home computer, rather than on the
company's dime?
--
Drew Lawson | "But the senator, while insisting he was not
| intoxicated, could not explain his nudity."
Bo Persson
Sep 30, 2014, 12:31:05 PM9/30/14
to
On 2014-09-30 01:43, Robert Hutchings wrote:
> If I write C++ code that has nothing to do with
> my employer, how can they claim it as "their" IP? THAT makes no sense
> to me...
And what if their huge team of lawyers claim that is DOES have something
> If I write C++ code that has nothing to do with
> my employer, how can they claim it as "their" IP? THAT makes no sense
> to me...
to do with your employer? Like their secret plans for a new product...
Bo Persson
Robert Hutchings
Sep 30, 2014, 1:00:53 PM9/30/14
to
code developed for personal use is NOT the IP of <employer>", you would
have to fight a team of lawyers, and that is a daunting prospect...
woodb...@gmail.com
Sep 30, 2014, 2:04:06 PM9/30/14
to
of lawyers, you have to be careful. I haven't had a
debit or credit card in over 10 years because I don't
trust those companies.
There are advantages to working for a small company.
One of them is you don't have to fend off those lawyers.
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
Stuart
Sep 30, 2014, 4:14:49 PM9/30/14
to
Stuart wrote:
>> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
>> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
>> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I worked for
>> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
>> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
>> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
>> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
>> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
>> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
>> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
>> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
>> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I worked for
>> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
>> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
>> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
>> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
>> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
>> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
On 09/30/14, Osmium wrote:
> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
> A friend of mine wrote Science Fiction as a hobby. Our company refused to
> give him permission to have it published since it might reflect badly on the
> company.
company allowed your friend to publish under a pseudonym.
Regards,
Stuart
Vir Campestris
Sep 30, 2014, 4:30:50 PM9/30/14
to
On 30/09/2014 00:18, JiiPee wrote:
> When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
> the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
> at home. Is this really true as well? Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
> disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
> time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
> understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
> company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
> outside work is theirs.
This depends on your contract and the country where you work.
> When I entered my first software company, they said they also own all
> the code I do on my spare time, even if its some game I am programming
> at home. Is this really true as well? Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
> disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
> time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
> understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
> company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
> outside work is theirs.
If you really want to know seek a legal newsgroup, or even pay a lawyer.
uk.legal.moderated is quite good, but I suspect not relevant to you.
Andy
Christopher Pisz
Sep 30, 2014, 4:31:56 PM9/30/14
to
On 9/30/2014 3:14 PM, Stuart wrote:
> Stuart wrote:
SNIP
Eh? I'm in America. Like I said before in this thread, it is pretty much
expected at any job that there will be some intellectual property clause
in your hiring paperwork. Usually, it only makes claims on things
_related to the companies business_, rather than a sweeping claim on
everything you do. i.e No, you cannot create a video game on your own
while working for a game studio. You can however invent the best flap
jack recipe.
As far as salaries go, I have never met a McDonald's employee making
$120,000/year. Of course, I don't get to McDonald's very often. I
suppose it depends what kind of software and where on the totem pole you
are. I am sure some companies I've worked for have done the "Let's hire
50 Afghanistan grunts to sludge out this code for $15/hr" and I don't
know the details of how that works, only that it results in a
maintenance nightmare. Perhaps that's what you are referring to when you
compare salaries. However, the average Software Engineer in America is
expected to make $60,000 out of college and the average McDonald's Fry
Cook is expected to make $10/hr. I think the average junior salary is
around $80,000 and seniors typically make $100,000+ last I checked. It
varies with your niche and city though.
Are Europeans making less? Their money is worth more, so perhaps. I dunno.
> Stuart wrote:
SNIP
> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
SNIP
> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
Eh? I'm in America. Like I said before in this thread, it is pretty much
expected at any job that there will be some intellectual property clause
in your hiring paperwork. Usually, it only makes claims on things
_related to the companies business_, rather than a sweeping claim on
everything you do. i.e No, you cannot create a video game on your own
while working for a game studio. You can however invent the best flap
jack recipe.
As far as salaries go, I have never met a McDonald's employee making
$120,000/year. Of course, I don't get to McDonald's very often. I
suppose it depends what kind of software and where on the totem pole you
are. I am sure some companies I've worked for have done the "Let's hire
50 Afghanistan grunts to sludge out this code for $15/hr" and I don't
know the details of how that works, only that it results in a
maintenance nightmare. Perhaps that's what you are referring to when you
compare salaries. However, the average Software Engineer in America is
expected to make $60,000 out of college and the average McDonald's Fry
Cook is expected to make $10/hr. I think the average junior salary is
around $80,000 and seniors typically make $100,000+ last I checked. It
varies with your niche and city though.
Are Europeans making less? Their money is worth more, so perhaps. I dunno.
Geoff
Sep 30, 2014, 10:47:59 PM9/30/14
to
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 12:27:31 +0000 (UTC), dr...@furrfu.invalid (Drew
Lawson) wrote:
>>Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
>>disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
>>time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
>>understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
>>company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
>>outside work is theirs.
>
>Somewhat, this is for legal convenience. How do you prove that
>your project was done on your home computer, rather than on the
>company's dime?
Quite simply, the evidence of the work will be on your personal
Lawson) wrote:
>>Sounds wrong to me and I was a bit
>>disappointed, but accepted it. Why would it matter what I do on my spare
>>time especially if it has nothing to do with the company s code/work? I
>>understand and accept that all the code done in workplace belongs to the
>>company, that is natural.... but I do not think its right that also code
>>outside work is theirs.
>
>Somewhat, this is for legal convenience. How do you prove that
>your project was done on your home computer, rather than on the
>company's dime?
computer and not on the company computer. In case law, the burden of
proof is on the plaintiff, not the respondent. They can, of course,
use an army of lawyers to intimidate the respondent and attempt to
bankrupt him but if they don't prevail, the counter-suit would make
the former employee very rich indeed.
If a company claims ownership of intellectual property they must prove
they paid for it to be done, it was assigned to you to be done, it was
done on their equipment or on their premises or on company time. If
they fail to prove one or more of those elements then they don't own
the work.
Blanket, "we own everything that exists or may exist in your head or
was made by your hands for all time and times to come" clauses are
simply not enforceable and this has been adjudicated in the U.S.
several times.
Additionally, non-competition clauses are illegal and unenforceable in
California and some other jurisdictions. A non-key employee is
perfectly safe _independently_ developing his own IP on his own time
using non-company tools and resources in his basement and starting his
own business. That's the whole point of free enterprise, isn't it?
Stuart
Oct 1, 2014, 2:09:59 AM10/1/14
to
On 9/30/2014, Stuart wrote:
>> Stuart wrote:
> SNIP
>> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
>> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
>> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
>> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
>> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
> SNIP
On 09/30/14, Christopher Pisz:
>> Stuart wrote:
> SNIP
>> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
>> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
>> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
>> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
>> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
> SNIP
> Eh? I'm in America. Like I said before in this thread, it is pretty much
> expected at any job that there will be some intellectual property clause
> in your hiring paperwork. Usually, it only makes claims on things
> _related to the companies business_, rather than a sweeping claim on
> everything you do. i.e No, you cannot create a video game on your own
> while working for a game studio. You can however invent the best flap
> jack recipe.
I'm totally fine with an intellectual property clause. It was the claim
> expected at any job that there will be some intellectual property clause
> in your hiring paperwork. Usually, it only makes claims on things
> _related to the companies business_, rather than a sweeping claim on
> everything you do. i.e No, you cannot create a video game on your own
> while working for a game studio. You can however invent the best flap
> jack recipe.
on everything that bothered me (like Osmium's friend, who was not even
allowed to publish a novel that he wrote in his spare time). If my boss
forbade me to make contributions to Open Transport Tycoon I'd be
seriously mad ;-)
> As far as salaries go, I have never met a McDonald's employee making
> $120,000/year. Of course, I don't get to McDonald's very often. I
> suppose it depends what kind of software and where on the totem pole you
> 50 Afghanistan grunts to sludge out this code for $15/hr" and I don't
> know the details of how that works, only that it results in a
> maintenance nightmare. Perhaps that's what you are referring to when you
> compare salaries.
I was referring to the salaries offered on the free-lancers websites.
> know the details of how that works, only that it results in a
> maintenance nightmare. Perhaps that's what you are referring to when you
> compare salaries.
Most job offers boil down to 1$/hr, which is probably the average salary
in India.
> However, the average Software Engineer in America is
> expected to make $60,000 out of college and the average McDonald's Fry
> Cook is expected to make $10/hr. I think the average junior salary is
> around $80,000 and seniors typically make $100,000+ last I checked. It
> varies with your niche and city though.
>
> Are Europeans making less? Their money is worth more, so perhaps. I dunno.
and 40K € to 60K € for senior programmers (this applies to the former
Eastern Germany, you'll probably get a 1.3 to 1.5 higher salary in the
Western part of Germany). Apparently that is a lot less than what
American software engineers are getting, which is probably the reason
why Germany has very little to offer with regard to software products
(except for SAP, I guess).
Thanks for your numbers,
Stuart
David Brown
Oct 1, 2014, 3:49:04 AM10/1/14
to
On 30/09/14 22:14, Stuart wrote:
> Stuart wrote:
>>> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
>>> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
>>> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I
>>> worked for
>>> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
>>> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
>>> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
>>> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
>>> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
>>> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
>
>
> On 09/30/14, Osmium wrote:
>> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
>> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
>> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
>> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
>
> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
>
It is not just an "American" thing - it is common world-wide for an
> Stuart wrote:
>>> PS: I wouldn't work for such a company in the first place. That doesn't
>>> mean that I have a problem with security, I just don't like ridiculous
>>> interference with my personal life (another thing would be if I
>>> worked for
>>> the MoD and went to anti-war demonstrations). It turns out that my
>>> contract contains a clause that I must not make statements about my work
>>> or my company to existing and _future_ clients of our company. That's a
>>> bummer. When I confronted my boss - whom I went to school with for two
>>> years - he admitted that he did not even read through this particular
>>> clause, he just copied the whole thing from the internet.
>
>
> On 09/30/14, Osmium wrote:
>> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
>> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
>> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
>> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
>
> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
>
employer to have rights to related things you do outside work. But
there will be significant differences in defining "related" here. In
Europe, "related" might mean "any sort of programming" - while in
America it could easily mean "anything making money". There will also
be significant differences in the attitudes taken by companies in
enforcing such policies and contracts. In Europe, companies are allowed
to take ethics and common sense into account, and they are allowed to
consider the rights and feelings of their employees. In America,
publicly traded companies are primarily responsible to their
shareholders - their main legal obligation is to maximise profits, and
everything else is secondary. So if you write a best-seller in your
freetime, and the company thinks they could claim the rights to it, then
they have no legal choice but to try to take it off you.
Also, employers the world over have a right and a duty to protect their
reputation, and that can place restrictions on what you do and how you
act outside work hours. Rules for that sort of thing, and how they are
enforced, will vary between the USA and Europe (and between countries in
Europe). If you - as a male programmer - like to go clubbing wearing
drag and fishnet tights in the weekends, you will quickly find yourself
out of a job in most of the USA - while in northern Europe no one would
bat an eyelid.
Stuart
Oct 1, 2014, 4:53:01 AM10/1/14
to
On 09/30/14, Osmium wrote:
>>> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
>>> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
>>> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
>>> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
>>> I think your chance of getting a job as a programmer or an engineer with
>>> those constraints in the USA are real close to zero. Unless you are Very
>>> Special the company is not going to be willing to even enter negotiations
>>> with you regarding the basics. It also displays an "attitude".
On 30/09/14, Stuart wrote:
>> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
>> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
>> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
>> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
>> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
>> Gosh, I hadn't suspected this. I wonder whether this is an "American"
>> thing or just another indicator that software engineers are getting
>> closer and closer to the status of a McDonald employee. If I look at the
>> rates that are offered in most freelancer websites, I'd say that
>> McDonalds employees are only slighly less paid.
On 10/01/14, David Brown wrote:
> It is not just an "American" thing - it is common world-wide for an
> employer to have rights to related things you do outside work. But
> there will be significant differences in defining "related" here. In
> Europe, "related" might mean "any sort of programming" - while in
> America it could easily mean "anything making money".
In Germany this would be "anything that is related to the companies line
> It is not just an "American" thing - it is common world-wide for an
> employer to have rights to related things you do outside work. But
> there will be significant differences in defining "related" here. In
> Europe, "related" might mean "any sort of programming" - while in
> America it could easily mean "anything making money".
of work". So writing novels in your spare time is OK (as long as it does
not interfere with your work performance), and programming in a totally
different field is also OK (hobby programmer that wants to improve Open
Transport Tycoon). If you want to make money in your spare time, you
have to get a permission from your employer, but if your employee denies
you a permission he must state a good reason for this.
> There will also
> be significant differences in the attitudes taken by companies in
> enforcing such policies and contracts. In Europe, companies are allowed
> to take ethics and common sense into account, and they are allowed to
> consider the rights and feelings of their employees. In America,
> publicly traded companies are primarily responsible to their
> shareholders - their main legal obligation is to maximise profits, and
> everything else is secondary. So if you write a best-seller in your
> freetime, and the company thinks they could claim the rights to it, then
> they have no legal choice but to try to take it off you.
concise description of how things are done in America. After all,
America defines itself as the country that gives the most freedom to
everyone, and right now I cannot see any country in the world (not even
Germany) that comes closer to this dream than America. Of course, some
companies might think that this means that they can force any contracts
on their employees, but apparently the US jurisdiction thinks otherwise.
> Also, employers the world over have a right and a duty to protect their
> reputation, and that can place restrictions on what you do and how you
> act outside work hours. Rules for that sort of thing, and how they are
> enforced, will vary between the USA and Europe (and between countries in
> Europe). If you - as a male programmer - like to go clubbing wearing
> drag and fishnet tights in the weekends, you will quickly find yourself
> out of a job in most of the USA - while in northern Europe no one would
> bat an eyelid.
President would have been unthinkable in the 50's), but in some regards
they still have a long way ahead. In some parts they are even ahead of
Germany: if I understand it right, employers are not allowed to see the
name or the photo of the job applicant. That would be unthinkable here
in Germany.
Regards,
Stuart
J. Clarke
Oct 2, 2014, 7:09:29 PM10/2/14
to
In article <m0dn1g$htv$1...@dont-email.me>, david...@hesbynett.no
says...
Just a reminder in all of this--Steve Wozniak created the Apple
prototype in Hewlett-Packard's engineering lab while working as an
employee of Hewlett-Packard. He offered the design to the company and
when they decided they had no use for it he requested and obtained a
release to market it on his own. Don't assume that a company, even a
very large one with lots and lots of lawyers, will be completely
inflexible on such a matter.
says...
prototype in Hewlett-Packard's engineering lab while working as an
employee of Hewlett-Packard. He offered the design to the company and
when they decided they had no use for it he requested and obtained a
release to market it on his own. Don't assume that a company, even a
very large one with lots and lots of lawyers, will be completely
inflexible on such a matter.
Robert Wessel
Oct 2, 2014, 8:53:15 PM10/2/14
to
On Thu, 2 Oct 2014 19:08:22 -0400, "J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net>
wrote:
Just don't remind them of that particular anecdote when you ask
them... ;-)
wrote:
them... ;-)
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