APL on PalmOS ???
Spiderhawk
It has been a while since I have programmed in APL, but I still believe
it a viable language. In fact, I would love to have APL on my Palm
IIIx as one can could actually write useful short programs. Is it
feasible to port APL to the PalmOS (limited memory and speed). Ports
of GNU C, Basic, Java, etc. have already made it to the Palm. I am
curious if any APL guru's out there could comment on the feasibility.
Thanks,
Spiderhawk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Spiderhawk
David Sommers
and speed of a Palm.
In 1978 I did APL development on an IBM 5100. This was a pre-PC PC. It was a
desktop machine with an integrated keyboard and monitor. The only mass
storage was a cartridge tape drive. All the goofy APL symbols were directly
on the keyboard.
I don't really know what the processor was or how much memory it had. Given
that it was 1978, and this was desktop machine the size of a PC, I can't
imagine it had more than 64 KB of memory and a 2 MHz processor. The APL
interpreter and whatever OS it had was in ROM and loaded virtually instantly
on power up, as I recall.
Bye.
"Spiderhawk" <spide...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:88cmmt$5sb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hello,
>
> It has been a while since I have programmed in APL, but I still believe
> it a viable language. In fact, I would love to have APL on my Palm
> IIIx as one can could actually write useful short programs. Is it
> feasible to port APL to the PalmOS (limited memory and speed). Ports
> of GNU C, Basic, Java, etc. have already made it to the Palm. I am
> curious if any APL guru's out there could comment on the feasibility.
[.....]
Brian W Oliver
> In 1978 I did APL development on an IBM 5100. This was a
> pre-PC PC. It was a desktop machine with an integrated
> keyboard and monitor. The only mass storage was a cartridge
> tape drive. All the goofy APL symbols were directly on the
> keyboard.
> I don't really know what the processor was or how much
> memory it had. Given that it was 1978, and this was desktop
> machine the size of a PC, I can't imagine it had more than
> 64 KB of memory and a 2 MHz processor.
afford the option, 16KB. We all thought IBM had achieved a
master stroke, burning APL into a standalone machine directed
at departmental computing, back in 1978. Problem was, it was a
tragic 4 years ahead of its time. Imagine if today someone
"invented" and open-sourced APL .....
Ted Edwards
> > it a viable language. In fact, I would love to have APL on my Palm
> > IIIx as one can could actually write useful short programs.
How much memory has it? Can it run DOS programs?
Ted
Larry Elmore
>
> > > it a viable language. In fact, I would love to have APL on my Palm
> > > IIIx as one can could actually write useful short programs.
How about on the HP-49G? It's got 512kB RAM and 1MB flash ROM available for
the user, plus 1MB flash ROM for the OS. Hmm, you could completely replace
the HP OS if you liked and have a completely customized J or APL handheld
calculator! Written in Saturn ASM, it could be quite speedy, though that
would be a _serious_ project. Now that I think about it, J is written in C
and a port of gcc for the Saturn CPU is available. Maybe getting a port of J
on a handheld wouldn't be as difficult as I originally thought!
Larry
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> Hello,
>
> It has been a while since I have programmed in APL, but I still believe
> feasible to port APL to the PalmOS (limited memory and speed). Ports
> of GNU C, Basic, Java, etc. have already made it to the Palm. I am
> curious if any APL guru's out there could comment on the feasibility.
I can quite well keep my notes on 3 x 5 inch index cards (great
technology!). But I can't run APL on 'em. APL on a Palm would
give me a reason to buy one (it would be
the world's best "video game", too!).
Three thoughts:
(1) When I worked in IBM Research 20 years ago, one of the
physicists (who had worked on the original Fortran team),
told me the difference APL had made at research: Before
APL they had a department of programmers to write programs for
the physicists. With APL, the physicists wrote
their own programs. I suspect this may be a bit of an
exaggeration, but I think the "spirit" of it is
probably right.
(2) Anent "palm" computers (lower case!). In 1993, I wrote
a hypertext note/text management system for the HP-95. I even
included an encoding of the alphabet on the numeric
keypad to help a person enter data in the dark. I thought
it was pretty neat.... --Everybody
seems to like the stylus-based Palm (upper case!) computers.
I can't relate to them, although maybe it would
be easier to implement APL without having to
manufacture hardware for the character set?
(3) I once worked for a manager whose thesis was that
the computer should not know what you can do with it, i.e.,
that what makes a computer program really great is
that it enables persons to do things that nobody,
not even the people who designed it, could have
envisioned. I've always thought APL was
one [of the few...] example[s] of such.
Cleverness carries the day,
But wisdom endureth.
(--Peter Drucker)
I only hope....
+\brad mccormick
--
Let your light so shine before men,
that they may see your good works.... (Matt 5:16)
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21)
Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / bra...@cloud9.net
914.238.0788 / 27 Poillon Rd, Chappaqua NY 10514-3403 USA
-------------------------------------------------------
<![%THINK;[XML]]> Visit my website: http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/
tbi...@my-deja.com
"Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <bra...@cloud9.net> wrote:
> [SNIP]
>
> (2) Anent "palm" computers (lower case!). In 1993, I wrote
> a hypertext note/text management system for the HP-95.
I may have been the last person to Buy APL-11 for Dos from STSC [next
day they made version 10 available for free].
I purchased it to run on my hp/100lx. I also have an early version of
"J" on the palmtop, [though I seldom run it as no-one has yet written "J
Interactive" and the astonishingly intuitive and well organized "APL
Interactive" ruined me (i.e. made me lazy), as far as the effort/time
I'm willing to expend to learn a new language, a phenomenon that also
applies to the nonexistent "K Interactive"]
Sure, I miss nested arrays [not available on the DOS version] ` but the
hp/lx series is so small and so usable that I can solve a lot of
problems on a train or a plane and transfer the code to Dyalog and then
just do a couple of "bested array edits" to "pretty up" the code
Mike O'Connor
<som...@ecom.net> wrote:
>I just want to comment on the idea of running APL with the limited
>memory and speed of a Palm.
>
>In 1978 I did APL development on an IBM 5100. This was a pre-PC PC. It
>was a desktop machine with an integrated keyboard and monitor. The
>only mass storage was a cartridge tape drive. All the goofy APL
>symbols were directly on the keyboard.
>
>I don't really know what the processor was or how much memory it had.
>Given that it was 1978, and this was desktop machine the size of a PC,
>I can't imagine it had more than 64 KB of memory and a 2 MHz
>processor. The APL interpreter and whatever OS it had was in ROM and
>loaded virtually instantly on power up, as I recall.
No kidding, I programmed on an IBM 5100 too! It was pre PC, and a
portable computer. Only fifty pounds, about 18" wide by 24" deep by 8"
high. Built in keyboard and screen, 16 lines by 64 characters. You could
flip a switch to make it show 32 characters wide if you liked. It maxed
out at 64K of RAM. It had a kick-ass APL-SV implementation in ROM, and
also had BASIC in ROM, I believe you had to reboot to switch languages.
All this for the low low price of... $20,000!
Plus IBM service. You got in-house service, and even if you didn't call
them they would drop by every week or two to fiddle with it, put a
service fix in there or something. It didn't have an O/S, it just booted
up right into APL or BASIC.
For mass storage it had a 3M tape cartridge. All your programs and stuff
went on there. You could add an second external tape drive, and I think
you could set one of them to work as virtual memory. I don't remember
how much the tapes held, a few Meg perhaps. Near the end of its life
they had a disk drive, I forget the capacity, but I remember owning a
DIGITAL Rainbow-100 at the time which was a PC that ran DOS and you
could buy a disk for it that held 5 Megs. I partitioned that baby into
two 2.5Meg volumes and was happy.
The IBM guy once told me the way the 5100 worked was that it was an IBM
370 emulator in there, and it ran standard IBM 370 APL and BASIC. No
wonder it slogged so slow. But it was reliable as hell. We had a nice
leather case for the thing with a suitcase-like handle and a strong
shoulder strap.
Those were the days. I'm going from memory and might have a few details
wrong.
I still love APL, haven't used it in years though.
--
Mike O'Connor <mi...@leptonicsystems.com>
<http://www.leptonicsystems.com>
Michael J Kingston
McCormick, Ed.D.) wrote:
.............
> (1) When I worked in IBM Research 20 years ago, one of the
> physicists (who had worked on the original Fortran team),
> told me the difference APL had made at research: Before
> APL they had a department of programmers to write programs for
> the physicists. With APL, the physicists wrote
> their own programs. I suspect this may be a bit of an
> exaggeration, but I think the "spirit" of it is
> probably right.
>
One of the main characteristics of APL in the commercial world has been
that users have been able to pursue their own specialty, taking on that of
the programmer as well, without the latter detracting from or swamping the
former. Many user applications did not lend themselves to the treatment
Specify Requirements Completely, Wait Two Years, Oops! Not What I wanted.
On the engineering side, aircraft are still flying whose structural
analysis programming was done in the late 1950s by end users employing one
of APL's forerunners, the Ferranti Pegasus Matrix Interpretive Scheme.
"Without APL we would not have been able to ...." - typical user comment.
Mike Kingston
Michael J Kingston
mi...@leptonicsystems.com (Mike O'Connor) wrote:
......
> The IBM guy once told me the way the 5100 worked was that it was an IBM
> 370 emulator in there, and it ran standard IBM 370 APL and BASIC. No
> wonder it slogged so slow. But it was reliable as hell.
Correct re APLSV running under a 370 (360?) emulator, but I understood the
Basic was in ROM. That's why APL ran slower than Basic for similar
calculations.
We used 5100, 5110, 5120 very effectively until an on-line APL service
came on stream.
Mike Kingston
Ken Travers
Mike O'Connor <mi...@leptonicsystems.com> wrote in message
news:mike-CD6A65.2...@news.optonline.net...
> In article <FpKq4.567$Mn3....@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "David Sommers"
> <som...@ecom.net> wrote:
>
> >I just want to comment on the idea of running APL with the limited
> >memory and speed of a Palm.
> >
> >In 1978 I did APL development on an IBM 5100. This was a pre-PC PC. It
> >was a desktop machine with an integrated keyboard and monitor. The
> >only mass storage was a cartridge tape drive. All the goofy APL
> >symbols were directly on the keyboard.
>
> No kidding, I programmed on an IBM 5100 too! It was pre PC, and a
> portable computer. Only fifty pounds, about 18" wide by 24" deep by 8"
> high. Built in keyboard and screen, 16 lines by 64 characters. You could
> flip a switch to make it show 32 characters wide if you liked. It maxed
> out at 64K of RAM. It had a kick-ass APL-SV implementation in ROM, and
> also had BASIC in ROM, I believe you had to reboot to switch languages.
>
> All this for the low low price of... $20,000!
>
> Plus IBM service. etc.
Ah, memories! I worked for IBM in Sydney Australia -- used the 5100 to do
the handicap/scoring for the 1976 Australian Air Race (230 starters, Perth
to Sydney). Knowing v little about flying in light planes, I gave my pilot
(Cessna 182) the wieght and dims of the 5100 + printer -- but he forgot to
ask about the weight of the manuals! We took to the air on a very different
ascent path from the norm ... provoking numerous concerned questions at
the next landfall.
Also worked for the Aust Federal Police on a group of impounded 5120s, used
in a Commodities scam. I guess the rogues thought an APL system for prising
money out of greedy rich folks would never be unscrambled!
Any more reminiscences?
Ken Travers (working now in APL2000 -- great product).
ktra...@zeta.org.au
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
in 71 or so, i was somewhat associated with the conversion of apl/360
to cms/apl (among other went from 32k byte workspaces to being having
up to nearly 16mbyte workspaces)
random refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#5
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#55
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#4
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#20
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#38
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#90
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#149
5100 was doing some 360 slight of hand for apl
ref:
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
as an aside ... at the 5100 ref
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/
notice the mention of the "PALM" processor ... Put All Logic in
Microcode