Datums?!
Nick Sizemore
> Wed, 27 Apr 1994 22:52:39 GMT
> "Charles H. Sampson" <sam...@NOSC.MIL>
> Datums?! (Was: Re: UTM to Lat-Long Conversions)
> Is "Datums" really in the title? If so, what does it mean (in
>military-speak)?
> Charlie
Charlie,
'Datum' and 'datums', as distiguished from 'datum' and 'data',
is actually not 'military-speak' but 'geodesy-speak'. I give a
definition here from a military source simply because it is the best
one immediately available to me.
From: DMA TM 8358.1 "Datums, Ellipsoids, Grids, and Grid
Reference Systems", page 1-3, paragraph 1-7.11.3
Datum. As used in this manual, datum refers to the geodetic
or horizontal datum. The classical datum is defined by
five elements giving the position of the origin (two
elements), the orientation of the network (one element),
and the parameters of a reference ellipsoid (two
elements). More recent definitions express the position
and orientation as functions of the deviations in the
meridian and in the prime vertical, the geoid -
ellipsoid separation, and the parameters of a reference
ellipsoid. The World Geodetic System datum gives
positions on a specified ellipsoid with respect to the
center of the earth.
In map/coordinate converter terms the datum refers to a survey
network, and specifically to the point of origin of that network,
which establishes the relationship (the mapping) between points on
the ground, e.g., survey benchmarks, and the reference ellipsoid
used to model the earth's shape in that part of the world. As
mapping has become more precise that relationship has been extended
to another reference surface, the geoid, used in some applications to
represent the earth even more closely than the (regular) ellipsoid
employed for routine cartography.
Hope this helps. If you're unfamiliar with these issues and
need information a good starting point is 'Geodesy for the Layman',
an old (but perhaps updated by now) pamphlet published by the US
Geological Survey. A starting point to acquire this reference, or
get pointers to others, is:
The Federal Geographic Data Committee Secretariat
590 National Center
Reston, VA 22092
Voice: (703) 648-4533
FAX : (703) 648-5755
Email: g...@usgs.gov
The above data is current as of Summer 1993, the date on the
last FGDC Newsletter I have at hand here.
Nick.
Robert Dewar
official document cannot disguise the fact that the document was written
by some poor uneducated sole, and apparently, and perhaps more surprisingly,
no one who reviewed it caught this horror.
Datums indeed!
Adam Beneschan
> The fact that a non-word like Datums appears in some impressive looking
> official document cannot disguise the fact that the document was written
> by some poor uneducated sole, and apparently, and perhaps more surprisingly,
^^^^
Fish can write, now? Gee, and to think the fillet I ate last night
might have had a promising career as a technical writer for the
government.
> no one who reviewed it caught this horror.
>
> Datums indeed!
Literary fish indeed!
Lenny Kneler
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:
datum 1 pl data : something given or admitted esp. as a basis for reasoning
or inference
2 pl datums : something used as a basis for calculating or measuring
I hope the authors of Webster's are quite educated...
--------------------
Lenny Kneler
lkn...@esri.com
ESRI 380 New York St
Redlands CA 92373
(909)793-2853
Michael Feldman
>official document cannot disguise the fact that the document was written
>by some poor uneducated sole, and apparently, and perhaps more surprisingly,
>no one who reviewed it caught this horror.
>
>Datums indeed!
>
Sole indeed! :-) :-)
Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman - chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University - Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5253 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) - mfel...@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
"Pork is all that stuff the government gives the other guys."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Dewar
The second edition of the OED (which normally recognizes acceptable American
usage), does not even mention the possibility of this neologism, giving
only Data as the plural. Certainly that's decisive for British usage, since
the OED II really is an authority here. Webster's doesn't have quite the
authoritative force with respect to American usage that the OED does for
British usage, but most people would certainly take it as an acceptable
authority, so I guess it is unfair to criticize such usage in this country.
Don't try it in Britain! This is what comes of not teaching Latin to
everyone in School :-)
david.c.willett
Again we see that language, the natural kind, continues to evolve. From
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate dictionary:
datum - n. [L, fr. neut. of datus] (1646) 1 pl. data : something given or
admitted esp. as a basis for reasoning or inference 2 pl. datums : something
used as a basis for calculating or measuring
My edition of the Webster's is copyrighted 1985, and gives the senses of
definitions in chronological order of acceptance. Of course, this does not
render Robert's criticism invalid, but it does say that by 1985, "datums"
had gained wide enough acceptance to convince the respected lexographers
at Webster's to include it as a legitimate "sense".
Note:
I did not have anything to do with the paper being discussed. Word
"trivia" is one of my hobbies.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dave Willett AT&T Advanced Technology Systems
Greensboro, NC USA
The real cowboy's the one in the middle, 'cause he don't have to drive,
and he don't have to mess with the gate.
-- Michael Martin Muphy "Cowboy Logic"
Richard Riehle
Bill Lee
Maybe I'm missing something, but my digital Webster contains the
following definition for datum:
[L, fr. neut. of datus]
(1646)
1 pl da.ta \-e\: something given or admitted esp. as a basis for
reasoning or inference
2 pl datums: something used as a basis for calculating or measuring
usage see DATA
Regards,
Bill Lee
Henry G. Baker
>Again we see that language, the natural kind, continues to evolve. From
>Webster's Ninth New Collegiate dictionary:
>
>datum - n. [L, fr. neut. of datus] (1646) 1 pl. data : something given or
>admitted esp. as a basis for reasoning or inference 2 pl. datums : something
>used as a basis for calculating or measuring
>
>My edition of the Webster's is copyrighted 1985, and gives the senses of
>definitions in chronological order of acceptance. Of course, this does not
>render Robert's criticism invalid, but it does say that by 1985, "datums"
>had gained wide enough acceptance to convince the respected lexographers
>at Webster's to include it as a legitimate "sense".
I believe that professional linguists of natural languages gave up
'prescriptive' linguistics in favor of 'descriptive' linguistics back
in the 1920's. Therefore, a professional linguist doesn't have any
axe to grind relative to either 'data' or 'datums'.
A modern equivalent for computer languages might be to forget the
published grammar, and simply examine all of the programs _submitted_
to the compiler, _whether or not they compiled_.
Robert Firth
>I believe that professional linguists of natural languages gave up
>'prescriptive' linguistics in favor of 'descriptive' linguistics back
>in the 1920's. Therefore, a professional linguist doesn't have any
>axe to grind relative to either 'data' or 'datums'.
>
>A modern equivalent for computer languages might be to forget the
>published grammar, and simply examine all of the programs _submitted_
>to the compiler, _whether or not they compiled_.
Sigh. I'd just thought of the same analogy, and you beat me to it.
There is a cultural difference here. British speakers regard the
OED as authoritative because, if not prescriptive, it is at least
normative: it consciously sets a standard and that standard is
based on literary english. Websters, in whatever incarnation,
is purely descriptive, which means that when an error becomes
sufficiently widespread it gets into the dictionary. That's why
what somebody quotes Webster as a supposed authority, the usual
reaction of a Briton is to smile politely in public and laugh
in private.
Yes, it's exactly as if, after 100 programmers have used a trailing
underscore, we brought out a new edition of the RM with the lexis
changed to reflect prevailing usage.
As another example, the use in the US of "alternate" to mean
"alternative" would be regarded by most British speakers as
wrong, flat wrong, regardless of how many people used it.
Yes, this is an elitist view. But to me at least, one of the
proper functions of the elite is to be the custodians of the
language.
Arthur Evans Jr
Dewar) commented on "datums".
The American Heritage Dictionary gives a definition we all expect of datum,
with "data" as its plural. Then as definition #2 it says:
> A point, line, or surface used as a reference, as in surveying, mapping,
> or geology.
For this definition, the plural "datums" is given.
Under "data" there is this:
USAGE NOTE: Data originated as the plural of Latin datum, "something
given," and many maintain that it must still be treated as a plural
form. The New York Times, for example, adheres to the traditional
rule in this headline: "Data Are Elusive on the Homeless." But
while data comes from a Latin plural form, the practice of treating
data as a plural in English often does not correspond to its
meaning, given an understanding of what counts as data in modern
research. We know, for example, what "data on the homeless" would
consist of--surveys, case histories, statistical analyses, and so
forth--but it would be a vain exercise to try to sort all of these
out into sets of individual facts, each of them a "datum" on the
homeless. (Does a case history count as a single datum, or as a
collection of them? Is a correlation between rates of homelessness
and unemployment itself a datum, or is it an abstraction over a
number of data?) Since scientists and researchers think of data as
a singular mass entity like information, it is entirely natural that
they should have come to talk about it as such and that others
should defer to their practice. Sixty percent of the Usage Panel
accepts the use of data with a singular verb and pronoun in the
sentence, "Once the data is in, we can begin to analyze it." A
still larger number, 77 percent, accepts the sentence, "We have very
little data on the efficacy of such programs", where the singularity
of data is implicit in the use of the quantifier very little
(contrast the oddness of "We have very little facts on the efficacy
of such programs").
Art Evans
david.c.willett
But isn't the issue here semantics, not grammar? I think we are discussing
whether or not "datums" is a legal construct. It is a correctly formed
token according to English (not Latinate) grammar rules. The issue is
which set of rules should be apply to "datum".
---BTW---
I think this discussion is a reasonable "thought experiment"
for "language (computer variety) lawyers". It should be obvious
that either viewpoint has merit. What matters is which way
facilitates solving the real problem (communication), not
which is more "correct".
david.c.willett
He resists the urge to followup with a "Bronx cheer", ladies & gentlemen,
but hastens to point out that descriptive linguistics has served English
well.
As I said earlier, I think we face evolving semantics here; "data" has
taken a meaning rather separate from its original use as a Latin plural.
Likewise, "datum" has acquired a specialized meaning quite different
from it more general meaning in Latin. Somehow, usage must reflect the
new semantics.
Would you prefer:
The differences in the geographic coordinates was attributed
to differences in the data, rather than the precision of the
UTM conversion program.
or
The differences in the geographic coordinates was attributed
to differences in the datums, rather than the precision of the
UTM conversion program.
I think the "data" in the first sentence is ambiguous. Is it the plural
of datum, or refering to the precision of the input "data" in general?
Using another word to specifically refer to the fact that the datum used
for one conversion was different than that used for another is, in my
view, more rigorous; even if the OED disagrees.
Of course, a purist would probably maintain that the author must use
constructions that are unambiguous _and_ consistent with normative
standards of language use. I would agree, but only up to a point.
One must be open to new forms of expression, and new ways of viewing
a problem. Zealous adherence to "normative" standards inhibits
that openness.
Robert Dewar
business of description and analysis. The extent to which natural languages
are controlled by prescriptive rules varies of course from one language to
another. French in France is formally controlled by the academy. English in
the US is not controlled at all, there isn't really even an approximation of
an official dictionary. English in England is somewhere in between -- there
is no academy, but the OED is accepted as an official standard at least for
vocabulary.
P.S. one interesting thought here is that spell checkers in wide use in
computers will tend to prevent further drift in spelling, particularly the
kind of drift that comes from hyper-correctness (and for instance inserted
the bogus "s" into the word island, by false analogy with isle). As an
example of this, I think that spell checkers may prevent what otherwise
would surely become general acceptance of the non-word miniscule (which,
please, someone reassure me has not snuck into Websters).
Another nice example of this kind of drift, too late to prevent, is the
annoying spelling algorithm. OED 1 called this an "etymological perversion
of 'algorism'", and what is annoying in that drift (OED 2 has given up the
fight on this one) is that it comes from a cultural vias that just assumes
that the root must be Greek (it is in fact Arabic!)
P.S. GIven the discussion of datums, it seems clear that this word should
be accepted, if not as a general plural of datum, then certainly in the
specialized context that gave rise to this thread. I sent a message to the
OED email address summarizing the discussion on this newsgroup that leads
to that conclusion (so see, this discussion has not been completely idle :-)
Robert Dewar
"It (datums) is a correctly formed token according to English grammar rules"
Now that's definitely nonsense which no speaker of English I know of would
accept. There is no rule in English that you can add an s to any noun to
get the plural (consider messs, mediums, phenomenas, crisiss).
Instead the rule is something like:
"for most nouns, the plural is formed by adding an s. there are many
exceptions. some of these exceptions follow general rules, e.g. messes,
crises, others are irregular. consult the dictionary word by word to know
what the plural form is"
there is no BNF for english that contains a rule like:
Plural_Noun ::= Singular_Noun "s"
and in general, tokens are enumerated, by a dictionary, NOT formed by rules.
If anyone disagrees with this, they should be sure to announce their
unconventional views BEFORE playing Scrabble!
mices, gooses, faunums and florums, alumnuses and alumnas, grouses,
glorys, etc will not be accepted on MY Scrabble board :-)
P.S. even the greek/latin scholar who is an adamant guardian of the
language can be fooled. It is morons, not mora, who make life so hard,
and I am pretty sure that is the number of incorrectly alledged oxymorons,
not oxymora, that get *me* upset :-) :-) :-) :-)
(Lot's of smileys in case anyone takes this stuff too seriously!)
oops, I guess I need one more smiley, otherwise some smart guy will
think I accidentally misspelled lot's on the previous line :-)
.
Bob Collins
>If anyone disagrees with this, they should be sure to announce their
>unconventional views BEFORE playing Scrabble!
>
>mices, gooses, faunums and florums, alumnuses and alumnas, grouses,
>glorys, etc will not be accepted on MY Scrabble board :-)
>
>
>oops, I guess I need one more smiley, otherwise some smart guy will
>think I accidentally misspelled lot's on the previous line :-)
Every literate person knows that the *proper* incorrect plural is
"mouses" not "mices." I guess the author can't help it if he is
a Dewar and not a writer.
Bob Collins, col...@cs.wm.edu
George Jansen
Robert Dewar <de...@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>If anyone disagrees with this, they should be sure to announce their
>unconventional views BEFORE playing Scrabble!
>
>mices, gooses, faunums and florums, alumnuses and alumnas, grouses,
>glorys, etc will not be accepted on MY Scrabble board :-)
>
the plural of "goose", the tailor's tool, was "gooses", and would not
investigate aloss of geese save as rustling(?).
By the way, anyone who likes can publish a _Webster's_, and two or three
fairly reputable companies do, though a Merriam-Webster is what most of us
mean.
>(Lot's of smileys in case anyone takes this stuff too seriously!)
Indeed.
gjj
Magnus Kempe
:
: Another nice example of this kind of drift, too late to prevent, is the
: annoying spelling algorithm. OED 1 called this an "etymological perversion
: of 'algorism'", and what is annoying in that drift (OED 2 has given up the
: fight on this one) is that it comes from a cultural vias that just assumes
: that the root must be Greek (it is in fact Arabic!)
It's good to learn that the OED has finally given up, since the
perversion goes back to medieval Latin! Al-Khawarizmi was the guy
who gave us the name for aljabra (al-jabr, i.e. constraint, reduction).
--
Magnus Kempe "I know not what course others may take, but as for me,
Magnus...@di.epfl.ch Give me Liberty... or give me Death!" -- Patrick Henry
david.c.willett
> You don't look to linguists for prescriptive rules, they are of course in the
> business of description and analysis. The extent to which natural languages
> are controlled by prescriptive rules varies of course from one language to
> another. French in France is formally controlled by the academy. English in
> the US is not controlled at all, there isn't really even an approximation of
> an official dictionary. English in England is somewhere in between -- there
> is no academy, but the OED is accepted as an official standard at least for
> vocabulary.
>
British Public Schools had ceased enforcing "standard" English, which
I understand had come to be known as "Public School English". Does
the BBC still enforce a "standard" pronounciation and usage?
> P.S. one interesting thought here is that spell checkers in wide use in
> computers will tend to prevent further drift in spelling, particularly the
> kind of drift that comes from hyper-correctness (and for instance inserted
> the bogus "s" into the word island, by false analogy with isle). As an
> example of this, I think that spell checkers may prevent what otherwise
> would surely become general acceptance of the non-word miniscule (which,
> please, someone reassure me has not snuck into Websters).
>
Too late... in my 1985 edition it is listed as a variant of
minuscule. It hasn't officially made it, but it's well on its way.
By the way, I'm on the lookout for a later edition of Websters, and
am considering the CD-ROM variety.
> Another nice example of this kind of drift, too late to prevent, is the
> annoying spelling algorithm. OED 1 called this an "etymological perversion
> of 'algorism'", and what is annoying in that drift (OED 2 has given up the
> fight on this one) is that it comes from a cultural vias that just assumes
> that the root must be Greek (it is in fact Arabic!)
>
> P.S. GIven the discussion of datums, it seems clear that this word should
> be accepted, if not as a general plural of datum, then certainly in the
> specialized context that gave rise to this thread. I sent a message to the
> OED email address summarizing the discussion on this newsgroup that leads
> to that conclusion (so see, this discussion has not been completely idle :-)
>
Well done. Would "Good show!" be appropriate? I saw a parallel between
this discussion and the "language wars" that we see often in this newsgroup.
The point as issue was trivial, but it hinted at a more significant matter.
I endure the trivial, while trying to see and address the more substantial
issues below the surface.
I also appreciate the humor along the way :-)
g...@ocsystems.com
>
> mices, gooses, faunums and florums, alumnuses and alumnas, grouses,
> glorys, etc will not be accepted on MY Scrabble board :-)
>
actually ARE acceptable!
--gvc
Bevin R. Brett
In article <1994May...@di.epfl.ch>, Magnus...@di.epfl.ch (Magnus Kempe) writes...
>perversion goes back to medieval Latin! Al-Khawarizmi was the guy
>who gave us the name for aljabra (al-jabr, i.e. constraint, reduction).
While we are wasting bandwidth on alternate spellings...
Standing up, and glancing to my right, I see the name of the conference room
on a large placard.
It says "Al-Khwarizmi", no 'a' between the 'h' and the 'w'
/Bevin
Adam Beneschan
Interesting---I've always seen it al-Khowarizmi. However,
Merriam-Webster spells it al-Khuwarizmi. Of course, I can't give you
the true spelling of the name, because all the Arabic letters on my
keyboard are broken. :-)
-- Adam
John Townsend
No No NO! the plural of mice is meeces!!! Everyone knows that!! :-)
(^_^)
Robert Firth
>Interesting---I've always seen it al-Khowarizmi. However,
>Merriam-Webster spells it al-Khuwarizmi. Of course, I can't give you
>the true spelling of the name, because all the Arabic letters on my
>keyboard are broken. :-)
Actually, the word isn't arabic, it's greek, and the true spelling
is Khorasmia for the place and Khorasmios for an inhabitant.
Jon Jacky
I recall a book where the author explained "algorithm" was not derived
from the Greek "algos", meaning "pain."
- Jon
--
Jonathan Jacky j...@radonc.washington.edu
Radiation Oncology RC-08 voice: (206)-548-4117
University of Washington FAX: (206)-548-6218
Seattle, Washington 98195
USA
Kumar
Jon Jacky <j...@bilbo.radonc.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>I recall a book where the author explained "algorithm" was not derived
>from the Greek "algos", meaning "pain."
>
>- Jon
>--
>
You are refering to the opening paragraphs of Donald Knuth's "The Art of
Computer Programming" Vol 1 .....perhaps.
I wont replicate the story here as it is a bit irrelevant to this discussion
group, interested readers can look at the book.
I will use this opportunity to ask an Ada question though. If you had a choice
of platforms----Apple Mac or SUN Sparc 10, what Ada compilers would you
recommend for use in a classroom?
I.e. SUN Ada or some MAC Ada (which one?)
Optimizing the language completeness (important) as well as the licensing
costs.
Deepak.
--
Deepak Kumar dku...@cc.brynmawr.edu
Department of Mathematics & Computer Science Voice: (610) 526-7485
Bryn Mawr College Fax: (610) 526 5086
Bryn Mawr, PA 19010 Please help with the incorrect address in FROM line!
David Weller
Robert I. Eachus <eac...@spectre.mitre.org> wrote:
>
>And you should get
>Rational Rose and have it available. Not a good introductory tool,
>but a great development environment for advanced programmers, so don't
>present it in introductory courses. Rational Rose is available free
>to schools.
>
Uh, I think you meant Rational Apex, right? (Since you were talking
about development envs/compilers).
--
Ada 9X:Try it again for the first time! Free Ada compilers:cs.nyu.edu(pub/gnat).
Free Ada goodies: wuarchive.wustl.edu (/languages/ada). Free ref. manual and
other docs: ajpo.sei.cmu.edu (/public/ada9x). || Member:
The Ada WWW Server is http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Ada/ || Team Ada, Team OS/2
Robert I. Eachus
In article <dkumar.768667162@blackcat> dkumar@blackcat (Kumar) writes:
> I will use this opportunity to ask an Ada question though. If you
> had a choice of platforms----Apple Mac or SUN Sparc 10, what Ada
> compilers would you recommend for use in a classroom?
First of all, although you may want compilers on some Macs, and
Macs make fine X-terminals when networked, if you are teaching
software engineering use the SPARCs. Many students nowadays have
never worked in a shared environment, and in the workplace e-mail is
perhaps the number one productivity tool on any project. If you have
students with Macs, provide some extra Appletalk connectors in the
lab, and a protocol converter like the Gatorbox. (Yes Macs can be
directly connected to Ethernet, but you don't want students pulling in
and disconnecting machines to Ethernet.)
Second, use more than one compiler. Students need to learn the
difference between the language and a particular implementation.
Learning the lesson using Ada keeps the pain way down, for both
teachers and students.
Compiler recommendations?
On the Mac RR and Meridian seem to be the competitive commercial
choices, I'll let others tell you their likes and dislikes. Make the
AdaEd port from Mike Feldman available for students, but not as the
only compiler available.
On the Sun, I prefer Verdix to Alsys but it is a close call.
There are others as well, but I am not familiar with them. Verdix
(SunAda) is better integrated and easier to use. Alsys has much more
responsive service and fewer open bug reports. And you should get
Rational Rose and have it available. Not a good introductory tool,
but a great development environment for advanced programmers, so don't
present it in introductory courses. Rational Rose is available free
to schools.
In any case get GNAT from NYU for the Sun, both to have an Ada 9X
environment, and to have a compiler/environment that the students can
examine, modify, and contribute to.
Hope this helps.
--
Robert I. Eachus
with Standard_Disclaimer;
use Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
Michael Feldman
>
> Compiler recommendations?
>
> On the Mac RR and Meridian seem to be the competitive commercial
>choices, I'll let others tell you their likes and dislikes. Make the
>AdaEd port from Mike Feldman available for students, but not as the
>only compiler available.
>
there never was. Alsys and TeleSoft were at one point both selling
Mac compilers; since they merged, as far as I know _all_ their Mac
products have been withdrawn.
The _only_ Mac compiler for sale out there is Meridian's; it's a good
compiler for students who can handle MPW, not the world's friendliest
development environment but OK for serious programmers. Art Evans
likes this compiler, right, Art?
Sad to say, the only Ada compiler for Macs designed to be student-friendly
is GW-Ada/Ed. I wish it weren't so, but alas the Ada industry has left
the Mac world pretty much in the lurch.
GNAT for Mac? Maybe someday...sigh...
(Please, don't re-start the thread about Stallman and Apple. Please.)
Michael Feldman
David Weller <dwe...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>In article <EACHUS.94M...@spectre.mitre.org>,
>Robert I. Eachus <eac...@spectre.mitre.org> wrote:
>>
>>Rational Rose and have it available. Not a good introductory tool,
>>but a great development environment for advanced programmers, so don't
>>present it in introductory courses. Rational Rose is available free
>>to schools.
>>
>about development envs/compilers).
Right. Rational Apex is free to university teaching labs. It is a _big_
system, though. Don't even think about it for big intro courses.
Rational recently announced that (almost) all their VADS self-host (i.e.
non-cross) compilers are now part of the SEED program, which makes them
free to university teaching labs. This is the good news - the VADS
(ex-Verdix) compilers are good and mature Ada 83 systems.
The bad news is that VADS compilers for Sun are specifically excluded.
This is because Sun has the rights to distribute the VADS products
(under the SunAda name). So these compilers are not part of Rational's
university program, and as far as I know, not part of Sun's either.
Maybe some day they will work this out. There are lots of Suns in the univs.
Magnus Kempe
:
: The bad news is that VADS compilers for Sun are specifically excluded.
: This is because Sun has the rights to distribute the VADS products
: (under the SunAda name).
We (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Lausanne) decided to drop
the SunAda compiler, because Sun was asking us to pay _more_ in yearly
maintenance than the original cost of the compiler, _and_ the original
cost was about _10_ times the educational price of competitors.
Now, we have Alsys and the _free_ Rational Apex systems for our
Sun workstations.
: Maybe some day they will work this out. There are lots of Suns in the univs.
I doubt it. We fought for one year, to no avail. Sun told us
we were the largest Ada site in Europe (50 licenses for CS2...);
apparently they thought we should thank them and pay more because
of that. Fools.
BTW, if anyone from Sun is listening, it is likely that we'll move
away from Sun _workstations_ too, since Sun is apparently devoted
to preventing universities from using Ada on their machines.
For us, DEC Alpha with DEC Ada is nice and much cheaper.
And when will Rational deliver Apex on PowerPC Mac?
Arthur Evans Jr
Feldman) wrote:
<snip>>
> The _only_ Mac compiler for sale out there is Meridian's; it's a good
> compiler for students who can handle MPW, not the world's friendliest
> development environment but OK for serious programmers. Art Evans
> likes this compiler, right, Art?
Right. It's not a bad compiler -- sort of late 80s technology but with an
early 80s debugger. I get a lot of work done with it. And yes, MPW is OK
for serious software development. However, I would not ask students,
particularly beginners, to learn MPW in order to program in Ada.
> Sad to say, the only Ada compiler for Macs designed to be student-friendly
> is GW-Ada/Ed. I wish it weren't so, but alas the Ada industry has left
> the Mac world pretty much in the lurch.
** SIGH **
Art Evans
Arthur Evans Jr, PhD Phone: 412-963-0839
Ada Consulting FAX: 412-963-0927
461 Fairview Road
Pittsburgh PA 15238-1933
ev...@evans.pgh.pa.us
Harold W. Mann, Jr.
mfel...@seas.gwu.edu writes:
>The _only_ Mac compiler for sale out there is Meridian's; it's a good
>compiler for students who can handle MPW, not the world's friendliest
>development environment but OK for serious programmers. Art Evans
>likes this compiler, right, Art?
>
>Sad to say, the only Ada compiler for Macs designed to be
student-friendly
>is GW-Ada/Ed. I wish it weren't so, but alas the Ada industry has left
>the Mac world pretty much in the lurch.
I want to get an Ada application for DOS recompiled for the Mac. What
are the pitfalls in store for me, and is Meridian's product adequate for
the task? I take it that GW-Ada/Ed is freeware? If so, where can I get
it?
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ || All my opinions are my own. They aren't
>Harold W. Mann, Jr. < || anybody's else, honest! Don't tell my
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ || employer, I'm not supposed to have any!
k...@rational.com
: Rational recently announced that (almost) all their VADS self-host (i.e.
: non-cross) compilers are now part of the SEED program, which makes them
: free to university teaching labs. This is the good news - the VADS
: (ex-Verdix) compilers are good and mature Ada 83 systems.
We also include the cross compilers (VADScross) if people are so inclined :-).
: The bad news is that VADS compilers for Sun are specifically excluded.
: This is because Sun has the rights to distribute the VADS products
: (under the SunAda name). So these compilers are not part of Rational's
: university program, and as far as I know, not part of Sun's either.
: Maybe some day they will work this out. There are lots of Suns in the univs.
We *are* trying to work this out with Sun. We would like to formally state
that Rational Software Corporation would put the Sun products into the SEED
program if we could. We fully support our program and understand the
desire by universities to have Sun hosted Ada development systems but are
contractually limited by our agreements with Sun. Officially Rational
Software Corp. does *not* have a Sun self-targeted product, we produce one
for Sun.
Kent Mitchell
Rational Software Corp.
: Mike Feldman
Michael Feldman
-------------------------------------------------------------
January 1994
Prof. Michael B. Feldman
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfel...@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)
We are happy to announce the first release of GW-Ada/Ed for the Apple
Macintosh family of computers. This software is now available by
anonymous ftp from wuarchive.wustl.edu, in the directory
languages/ada/compilers/adaed/gwu/mac.
This project was sponsored by The George Washington University, and in
part by the United States Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) under
contract #FY3592-93-10234, administered by Phillips Laboratory, Kirtland
AFB, NM 87117-5776.
Copyright (C) 1994, Manuel A. Perez and Michael Bliss Feldman
This program is free software; you can redistribute it as you see fit.
We are still too busy developing this system to release the source code;
once the project is stable, we will release the sources under the terms
of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software
Foundation.
This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT
ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS
FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I. ABOUT THE GW-Ada/Ed-Mac DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT
GW-Ada/Ed-Mac is a development environment built around the New York
University (NYU) AdaEd compiler/interpreter. It allows the editing,
compiling, binding and execution of Ada 83 programs. GW-Ada/Ed-Mac was
supervised by Prof. Michael B. Feldman. Manuel A. Perez, a GWU doctoral
student in Computer Science, is responsible for the Macintosh version,
including the editor and developer shell.
NYU's original README file is included in the distribution, for your
information. In summary, Ada/Ed was developed several years ago, and
validated under the Ada Compiler Validation Capability suite then in
effect. Ada/Ed is a full-scale compiler, which generates instructions for
a virtual machine. Execution is carried out by an interpreter for this
virtual machine.
Ada/Ed handles nearly all of Ada 83, including tasking and generics.
Not supported are a number of machine-dependent features, most of which
are not sensible to support in a virtual-machine environment.
The multi-window editor follows the usual Macintosh menu and command-key
conventions. Source files are limited to 32k characters, however.
Standard output is sent to a subset-VT100 console window, so that cursor
addressing and other ANSI escape sequences are supported. We think that
the system will be fun to use and as easy to work with as most Mac
programs are. Students who have tested the system comment that it, like
GW-Ada/Ed-DOS, is a great way to learn Ada.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
II. ACQUIRING AND INSTALLING GW-Ada/Ed-Mac FROM AN FTP ARCHIVE
System requirements - a Mac with a 68030 or 68040 processor, System 7, and
at least 4mb of RAM. You should have around 10mb free space on your hard
disk, too. The program will not run under System 6; we have not tested with
or with a 68020 processor. You are welcome to try, but we make no promises.
You need to copy and download four files, in addition to the readme.
-rw-r--r-- 1 mfeldman users 24329 Jan 21 15:56 readme.nyu
-rw-r--r-- 1 mfeldman users 155782 Jan 21 15:14 adaprogs.sea.hqx
-rwxr-xr-x 1 mfeldman users 1227749 Jan 21 14:42 gw-adaed.sea.hqx
-rw-r--r-- 1 mfeldman users 11907 Jan 21 16:05 userman.mac
The first file is the original NYU document for Ada/Ed; you don't need it
to run this system, but it contains useful background information. The
last file is a brief user manual for GW-Ada/Ed-Mac; you can open it with
any ASCII editor or Word Processor; we recommend that you open it with the
GW-Ada/Ed-Mac editor, once you've installed the system.
The files gw-adaed.sea.hqx and adaprogs.sea.hqx are BinHex-ed
self-extracting Stuffit archives. Once you've downloaded the files to your
Mac, you need to use the BinHex utility program to un-encode them. BinHex
is a free program that you can pick up from any Mac archive or user group.
The folder named "GWU AdaEd Folder" contains a file icon "GWU Ada"with a
version number. This is a double-clickable application. The other files
are not. Do NOT move or otherwise disturb these files! GW-Ada/Ed expects
to find those files, and behavior will be unpredictable if you mess with
them. The folders GWUDemos, NYUDemos, and Spider contain sets of
interesting programs to de,onstrate the capabilities of GW-Ada/Ed-Mac and
of Ada in general. GWUDemos was produced by GWU, NYUDemos by NYU, and
Spider by John Dalbey of California Polytechnic State University at San
Luis Obispo.
Once all four folders are available on your Mac, start reading the user
manual, which gives a brief tutorial on using the system.
We would like to have some idea who is using our software, and therefore
request that you make contact by e-mail to let us know how you like it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Feldman
Harold W. Mann, Jr. <hal_...@amber.spawar.navy.mil> wrote:
>I want to get an Ada application for DOS recompiled for the Mac. What
>are the pitfalls in store for me, and is Meridian's product adequate for
>the task? I take it that GW-Ada/Ed is freeware? If so, where can I get
>it?
This depends on the kind of application. If it is written in fully
standard Ada, and was compiled with Meridian's DOS compiler, it will
compile with the Mac one too. If it uses DOS features (graphics,
command-line parameters, etc.), then you have a job ahead of you,
because the Mac's system services just ain't like DOS's. It's
more like creating a Windows app.
Meridian's system runs under MPW and lets you compile and link two ways:
(1) you can use Text_IO for your interactive input/output, and run the
program under the MPW shell. The effect is like running a Unix
program on a Teletype terminal, that is, line-oriented. There is,
sad to say, no support for vt100 (ANSI) escape sequences.
(2) you can create a double-clickable Mac app, but then you can't use
Text_IO, you have to use Meridian's Toolbox binding, which is a
competent binding if you're used to creating "real" Mac apps.
If you're new at Mac programming, it's like Windows programming:
not for the faint-hearted. Meridian provides no high-level UI
libraries above the baseline toolbox. Neither does anyone else AFAIK.
Hope this helps re: Meridian. The compiler's fine, but Meridian did not
invest enough in infrastructure to make it easily usable for real apps.
Now, on to GW-Ada/Ed. My next post will be a re-posting of the announcement
I posted in January when we released it. Yes, it's free. It may do your
job, but it's really intended more for teaching than for serious apps.
Good luck!