Whole House Surge Suppressor

[AppsDBA]

We are having a new home built. I want to have a whole house surge supressor.
I have several questions:

1. Is it more difficult to add this after the home is built as opposed to
before the drywall goes up? Does this matter at all?

2. Would this work with electric, phone, cable and satellite connections or do
I need to have different one installed for each kind?

Thanks.

[Bill Crocker]

Typically, this is a device that is mounted in/on the breaker panel. It
shouldn't be a problem to add one later. It only protects the electrical
power circuits, not the phone, cable, etc.

Bill Crocker

"AppsDBA" <app...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011124214238...@mb-md.aol.com...

[Bruce Robin]

Check out the Leviton products. They have one with a module for phone built
in too.

"AppsDBA" <app...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011124214238...@mb-md.aol.com...

[w_tom]

You are about to be buried in information. Start here. A surge protector is
only as effective as its earth ground. That means even the distance from
protected utility to earth ground, through 'whole house' surge protector must be
less than 10 feet. IOW every incoming utility (including your own fresh water
well) must enter at the common service entrance all connect to the central earth
ground.

Others argued over pointed vs blunt air terminals. Nonsense. Because these
lightning rods were also only as effective as their earth ground. But humans tend
to understand only what they see - and therefore forget that the surge protector
is only a science - earthing is an art.

Your ground network starts with the footings. That is the point you start
installing surge protection. Some reading:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/199909/0143.html

So there is too much about radio protection? What is are those incoming utility
wires - antennas.
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
http://www.lightning-protection.com/solutions/solearth.htm
http://www.comm-omni.com/edcoweb/grndw.htm
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp
http://telebyteusa.com/catalog/manuals/m0161.htm

Some of the best discussion was by Richard Harrision in mid and end July in the
rec.radio.amateur.antenna newsgroup entitled "single point grounding".

A summary of effective surge protection and outright identification of the more
numerous ineffective devices in currently in discussion in the newsgroup
comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware entitled "(OT) IBM surge protectors last only a
couple of weeks" starting about 22 Nov.

Some 'whole house' devices:
In Home Depot Intermatic EG240RC or Siemens QSA2020
http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~StorminProtection/index-31.html
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispInfo.cfm?ID=280
http://www.mimcv.com/residential.html
http://www.elect-spec.com/wire_in2.htm
http://www.transtector.com/pdf/mcp.pdf

Telephone Protector:
http://www.one.co.uk/catalogue/telebyte/LightSurgeProtect/22PX.HTM
http://www.telebyteusa.com/catalog/products/22px.htm

Serious and Expensive protection:
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispinfo.cfm?id=579
http://www.ditekcorp.com/dispfamily.cfm?id=3
http://www.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/ECA90110AB7098CA85256A3A007091D7/$file/productsa2zFrameset.htm
(SDSB1175C) (SDSA1175 is undersized)

Telephone lines already have effective 'whole house' protection installed by the
telco. But most destructive surges to modems, answering machines, fax machines,
etc enter via the AC electric and are outgoing on the phone line to earth ground.

How to ID ineffective surge protection such as almost every plug-in power strip
and UPS - they have no direct, short connection to central earth ground AND the
also (conveniently?) forget to mention earth ground, its need, what it does, etc.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earthing is the art
of surge protection. That connection to earth must be short (less than 10 feet),
direct (no sharp bends, splices, not through conduit), and independent (all
connections to central earth ground are separate until they meet at the ground and
are not to be bundled with any other wires).

Did I mention that even the satellite dish must conform as every other incoming
utility?

[Gene Heskett]

Gene Heskett sends Greetings to w_tom ;

> You are about to be buried in information. Start here. A surge protector
> is
>only as effective as its earth ground. That means even the distance from
>protected utility to earth ground, through 'whole house' surge protector must
>be less than 10 feet. IOW every incoming utility (including your own fresh
>water well) must enter at the common service entrance all connect to the
>central earth ground.

> Others argued over pointed vs blunt air terminals. Nonsense. Because
> these
>lightning rods were also only as effective as their earth ground. But humans
>tend to understand only what they see - and therefore forget that the surge
>protector is only a science - earthing is an art.

Ah, but you are missing the point on the sharp points (if I can pun
around a bit)

Dull lightning rods do need a good, straight down, ground to earth.
Because they *are* going to get hit occasionally.

Sharp points are all the better, particularly if there are a gazillion
of them, arranged such that no part of the structure is "out from
under".

The theory, and it works quite well for broadcasting towers and such, is
that a myriad of sharp points all tend to bleed off the charge in the
air, creating an area around them that is charge neutral. By draining
off the local charge, an area of higher resistance air is created around
the device, and it works so well that they have pictures of such a device
with a lightning strike coming toward it, getting about 10 feet away and
turning to one side, thereby missing a 300 foot radio tower entirely.

One can actually meter the current coming down from one or more of these
spike balls and get a pretty good idea of the local electrical activity.
There is a CA broadcaster who uses it to start the standby generator
even when the powerline is still up. Its done because they got tired of
getting their gear all blown to hell with the surges from the powerline,
and with a decent air gap in the transfer switch, they are well
protected from most of the junk that comes in on the powerline.

Winding an old bicycle wheel with loops of barbed wire works to make a
homemade one, but the commercial units use a stainless steel version
with really sharp barbs that are about 4 inches long. There are other
designs of course, almost as many as there used to be snake oil
peddlers. One I've seen looks like a giant pom-pom ball about 2 feet
across, and there was one mounted on each corner of the towertop
platform.

BTW, these aren't all terribly well grounded in most cases because there
isn't a direct hit on them, but more like a steady currant. I'm told
that there is a huge varister across the relay coil to protect it in the
CA installation, but that the varister shows no sign of taking a hit
after nearly 20 years.

There is much to be said in favor of a surge strip IF its used
correctly. After having the third modem blown, I bought the fanciest
one I could find, on that takes the phone lines and cable connections
too.

The theory is that if a surge comes thru, everything on that supressor
will bounce in unison, being made so by the virtual short circuit the
surge supressor represents. Everything in this room except the overhead
lighting is on this supressor. The only thing I've had damaged, and I
thing it was damaged before I even bought it, was a cheap 50 dollar
scanner. It was a parallel port model, and after a storm I could no
longer drive my printer thru it. And a one year warranty was denied
because I was running it with linux. That company, and its parent
companies, will get no more of my business. But thats another story.

Other than that, I think the 'bounce it all in unison' theory has worked
quite well here. I figure its now saved me a 14.4 modem, then a 28.8
and a pair of 56k's since I put it in. Not to mention the blown ports
on the motherboards...

[...]

Cheers, Gene
--
Gene Heskett, CET, UHK |Amiga A2k Zeus040, 70MB ram, 31 gigs
| Linux @ 500mhz, 320MB ram, 50 gigs
email gene underscore heskett at iolinc dot net
#Amiga based X10 home automation program EZHome, see at:#
<http://www.iolinc.net/gene_heskett>
This messages reply content, but not any previously quoted material,
is © 2001 by Gene Heskett, all rights reserved.
--

[w_tom]

The theory that "everything on that supressor will bounce in unison" is valid
but assumes that no other connection to earth ground exists. Some desktops and
even linoleum tile can also be paths to earth ground. Your scanner cable could
have been draped onto tile or a baseboard heater which is another and destructive
path to earth ground. It would explain the scanner port damage. Then there is
the alternative path through a human - another path not connected to the surge
protector. To succeed as described, everything on the power strip surge
protector must be electrically isolated to 6,000 volts from alternative surge
paths. In reality, that just cannot be accomplished. There are always
alternative paths through the network cable, the mouse wire, human operator, etc.

However for the same price as one or two plug-in surge protectors, 'whole house'
surge protection effectively protect that entire system AND everything else in the
home - and provides that protection longer. Price alone demonstrates that a
plug-in surge protector is grossly overpriced. A total isolation of equipment to
6,000 volts is not practical. Another problem - plug-in surge protection is
typically undersized (will fail without notice). There are just so many problems
with plug-in surge protection compared to effective 'whole house' protection.

Lets look at price vs size (joules). A power strip ($2 retail price at WalMart)
gets three MOV surge protector components (typically $0.05 to $0.25 each):
http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%253D1005%2526a%253D8821,00.asp
The surge protector then sells for $20+. What happened to the rest of the
money? Not only did they install insufficient (300 joules) protection, but they
charged exorbitant money for this undersized protection. And it leaves everything
else in the building unprotected.

BTW, because of location, the 300 joules really only provides as little as 100
joules in protection and never more than 200 joules. That would be something
like 1000 times less protection (based upon life expectancy) compared to a
standard 1000 joule 'whole house' surge protector for about the same price.

Plug-in surge protectors cannot 'cover' all possible surge destructive paths.
It is also typically undersized and overpriced. Better protection is to shunt an
AC line surge (the typical source of modem destruction) to earth ground before it
enters a building. Once inside the building, a surge finds too many destructive
paths to earth ground. IOW a surge protector is only as effective as its earth
ground - as has been demonstrated since the 1930s.

How do we know that one particular setup is effective. Surges typically occur
once every eight years which is why the lessons of research and history are more
relevant than a personal experience of no damage. That research and history
demonstrates that surge protection is as effective as its earth ground.

[w_tom]

The idea of discharging the air is the basis of Early Streamer Emission type of
air terminals. They claim that many pointed rods discharge the air thereby
eliminating lightning discharges. There is absolutely no credible evidence that
this works. In fact, in a test installation on an FAA(?) tower, the first
lightning storm struck the ESE device and blew it right off the building. The
NFPA is so distrustful of these devices as to refused to accept a proposal for
Article 781 - repeatedly. Therefore manufacturers such as Hearly Bros. are suing
the non-profit NFPA in order to bankrupt this important organization.

Maybe this 'discharge the air' has merit. The problem is that those who
propose, promote, and sell such devices can never provide any proof. However
some even build these air terminals containing radioactive material to charge and
to 'increase' the discharge of air. Even with radioactive elements, ESE has still
not been proven any more effective.

The only technology proven to protect effectively from lightning is one that
channels the destructive bolt safely into earth. Until ESE people put up some
credible evidence that this 'discharge the air' concept works, well, they
currently have the reputation of 'Geritol for health' or 'cough drops to cure the
common cold'. Currently, ESE lightning protection devices have only proven to be
equivalent to a Franklin rod and only as effective as its earth ground.

That, BTW, is how some claim that ESE devices were superior. They installed the
ESE devices with enhanced earth ground - and the devices worked just like Franklin
rods - getting struck just like Franklin rods.

Further information is published in the IEEE Transactions on Power Delivery, Oct
1998, by Dr Abdul M Mousa entitled "Applicability of the Lightning Elimination
Devices to Substations and Power Lines". The only currently proven method of
lightning protection is the Franklin Air Terminal that channels lightning to earth
ground in a safer channel meaning that the air terminal is only as effective as
its earth ground.

If they have so much money to buy lawyers and sue the NFPA, then why can they
not perform credible research to prove this 'discharge the air' concept works?

[Gene Heskett]

The idea does have merit, albeit one that isn't going to convince the
unconvincable.

As a broadcaster with nearly 40 years experience in the field, I have
seen the evidence that convinces me, that of reduced damage to the gear.

We have an LEA whole building surge absorber at the transmitter, and
while its beginning to look a bit fat around the sides because its been
tagged so many times, I think its mostly working yet. Our internal
damages have been extremely miniscule in comparison, particularly when
before it was installed, I understand my predecessor was buying rectifer
diodes by the 500's to keep the rectifier stacks rebuilt for a year.
Since then, (17 years elapsed time now) I have ordered 200 once years
ago and 200 again recently, and I have a six-pack of stacks ready to go
should it get tapped again.

Also a few minor items, like 1 amp fast blow fuses.

The one item that wasn't protected, a satellite dish controller, I
finally had to retire as the pcb had become too conductive from all the
evaporated copper. There's little I can do about grounding it as its
sitting on an old tower base pedestal whose core goes down 20 some feet,
and has an 8" wide copper strap wrapped down 2 sides of it all the way
down. Ground resistance there is probably in the very low milli-ohm
range. I can measure from there, to another of those 3 pedestals with
the usual shop DVM and get basicly the lead resistance of the piece of
12 guage I'm useing to reach that 50 feet. To me, thats a handy path
for a powerline surge to exit thru, and its obviously done that many
times. In this cae, one can be said to have too good a ground.

However, this is a top of the mountain location, a far cry from the
environment 500 or more feet below us where people like to build homes.
We expect to get tagged many times a year, and do... Sometimes a hundred
or more times in a single day.

One of my operators was once chased out of the transmitter room by a
6" ball of fire that he says came from the tower light flasher. But its
still running after 40 years. An old, motorized crouse-hines flasher,
the one with the rocking mercury switches in it. I think it would take
a well placed shot from my Ackley-06 to stop it permanently...

Back at home, everything in this room but the overhead light is on this
one unit. The scanner that got blown was in the middle of about 16 feet
of parallel printer cable, the hit was right on top of me with no
discernable lag between the flash and the sound, so that 16 feet would
make a very good antenna. I was online at the time and still wonder why
I didn't blow a modem all to hell. That hit lifted me right up out of
my chair by a couple of inches, and a noticable pressure wave came in
the open window at my right elbow.

[Dennis Heidner]

In addition to the whole house suppressor, push real hard for all the
utilities to come through one common area (phone, cable, electric and your
satellite. That way you can use a common ground.

[w_tom]

They say one is at greater risk at home than at work. I don't think this
was the example they had in mind. Lightning entered through the window?

[Gene Heskett]

Gene Heskett sends Greetings to w_tom ;

> They say one is at greater risk at home than at work. I don't think this

>Gene Heskett wrote:

No, it didn't "come in" the window. Later, after it had quit storming
the next morning, I walked around the yard looking for signs of the hit,
but found none. There is one tree considerably taller than any of mine
in the yard next door, but I walked around it looking for telltale
streaks of blackened bark too, without seeing anything. So I don't know
what it hit, other than it had to be right on top of me. At best, it
hit someplace on a wooded hill about 150 feet north of me, but the delay
was less than that IMO.

All I can say is that the electrical click in the computers speakers
wasn't more than 20 milliseconds ahead of the very sharp crack that left
my ears ringing worse than usual, a crack that could actually be felt as
a blast of air thru the window. They ring slightly all the time at my
age (67), such damage brought on by wearing out of 3, 30 caliber rifle
barrels over the last 40 years while not wearing any earmuffs for the
first barrels demise, while actually buying 4 boxes of ammo. I load my
own obviously. Mostly in Lake City 1955 brass. I like making nickle
sized holes in paper at 100 meter plus ranges. Dime sized is even
better... And deer season for the first tag was a one shot deal.

[w_tom]

From research by the US Forestry Service (I believe it was Alan Taylor), most
trees (well over 90%) struck by lightning show no appreciable indication. The
idea that a direct lightning strike must leave a mark is urban myth because some
(very few) direct strikes leave such marks. Furthermore, lightning often forks
at the area of strike meaning that many who attribute the strike as nearby
actually suffered a direct strike from the same nearby bolt.

However having been so close to a strike, I am sure you will agree, it is
hard to believe that lightning is really such a low energy event.

[BruceR]

Just a little anecdote here - not meant to contradict in any way: When I
was about 9 years old (MANY years ago), I went to a summer camp and was
there during a severe lightning storm. The next morning we were gathered
around a big tree that had been struck where we saw a 3 inch wide strip from
top to bottom, where the bark had been stripped away by the lightning. It
was one of those memories that you never forget.

"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3C0532D9...@usa.net...
: From research by the US Forestry Service (I believe it was Alan Taylor),

:

[w_tom]

Those are the memorable and most powerful strikes. However to obtain some
idea how often lightning does strike earth, estimate that 99 other trees in the
region were also struck (from different strikes). They simply had no
appreciable indication. Many assume lightning always has awesome energy
everytime only because they saw results of the rare, more powerful strike.

[Gene Heskett]

Gene Heskett sends Greetings to w_tom ;

> From research by the US Forestry Service (I believe it was Alan Taylor),

> most
>trees (well over 90%) struck by lightning show no appreciable indication.
>The idea that a direct lightning strike must leave a mark is urban myth
>because some
>(very few) direct strikes leave such marks. Furthermore, lightning often
>forks at the area of strike meaning that many who attribute the strike as
>nearby actually suffered a direct strike from the same nearby bolt.

> However having been so close to a strike, I am sure you will agree, it is
>hard to believe that lightning is really such a low energy event.

Low energy? When a direct strike can reach 10,000 amperes 40ns after
the path has been established, that portion of which may take several
milliseconds while the feelers reach their way up from the ground, the
end result can be quite a few megawatts in each of the multiple
discharges over the next 250 milliseconds as it bounces back and forth.

I was one driving toward a 1049 foot tower in northeast Nebraska, and
saw lightning play around on the top of that tower, heating things up
such that the reddish glow of hot steel was visible during the off cycle
of the beacon lamps for about 10 seconds after the strikes petered out.
There were 3 distinct lines of those strikes. On arrival at the site, I
found one blown 1 amp slow-nlo fuse as the damages in the whole
building.

A later tower climber who went up to change those lamps a couple of
months later made the comment when he was back on the ground that
something sure warmed up the paint in places as it was completely burnt
off of the hardware mount for that beacon assembly. And one lamp had a
hole punched in it, nice and clean, about 2" in diameter with nothing
metallic surviving inside the glass, but no damage to the internal glass
stem other than the missing wires that were molded into it at
manufacturing time by Durotest. And no holes in the surrounding red
filter, which amazed us no end.

Lightning is not 'low energy' in my 67 years of observation.

[w_tom]

The term 'low energy' is relative to a much higher energy source - the electric
utility. For example, when equipment is physically destroyed, lightning does not
have sufficient energy to perform that damage. However the low energy, high
power event called lightning can, for example, setup a plasma path that shorts
13KV or 33KV into the low voltage lines. The resulting damage is quite
spectacular. Many confuse that damage with lightning. But lightning rarely
contains such energy. It is also why trees, directly struck, rarely have
indications of such damage.

Interesting is that hole size. Experiments to measure diameter of a lightning
bolt (using items such as screens) came to the same conclusion: a lightning bolt
tends to be about 2 inches in diameter. Your bulb damage is an excellent
indication that is was the target of a strike.

Gene Heskett wrote:

> Gene Heskett sends Greetings to w_tom ;
>
>

[Dennis Heidner]

Somewhat off topic..... my near hit with lightning was at a local
amusement park (Enchanted Village - for the Seattle people), we had just
gotten on the carrousel when lightning hit a tall evergreen tree about 30
feet away. We saw it... and everybody was going --- wow, I'm glad we are
under the carousel --- for about 30 seconds -- at which time they stopped
the carousel and made us get off... to STAND by the darn trees.... not a
comforting feeling with pouring rain and lightning going all over.
Fortunately the park wasn't real busy that day... most of the riders head
straight for their "gift stores" where it instantly became wall to wall
people.

I went back and looked at the tree, you couldn't tell it had been hit....
be we saw it! Apparently wet trees suffer less damage....???

[previous^@hotmail.com seismo]

About 6 years ago my mom had lightning hit a 40 year old maple tree on her
side yard. The sound made her dog pee on the rug, and it literally
shattered the tree. Looked like an explosive was placed in the core of the
tree and set off. About 3 years latter, a matching tree about 30 feet from
the first was also hit by lightning and split down part of the center
(although not as spectacular as the first explosion). Maybe we just notice
the less frequent, but physically powerful damage that can occur from
lightning.

"Dennis Heidner" <den...@heidners-no-spam.net> wrote in message
news:01c17a28$32c4e6d0$031e82c0@bigbird...

[Terry McGowan]

After some electrical damage from lightning, I installed a whole house surge
suppressor some years ago.

It goes in the circuit breaker panel on the incoming service line and is
easily installed at any time although I would suggest that a professional
electrician do the work.

It can't, of course, protect the cable or telephone lines. Individual
suppressors would have to be added to each of those.

The model that I used (a GE unit) is a "black box". It would be helpful if
there were an indicator of some sort to show that the unit continues to
provide protection.

Terry McGowan

AppsDBA <app...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011124214238...@mb-md.aol.com...

[A. Seals]

I called my utility company and they came out and put a "Strike Stop"
unit on my house. It is installed behind the meter. I'm sure that
there are other electric companies that do the same thing...it is not
advertised, heard about it from a friend.

The unit was paid for in 12 installments, so the cost wasn't
noticable.

For $2/month, they will also cover cable/phone surges. (insurance, not
physically).

Unfortunately, lightning struck the window of my house before the
until was in place, so I don't know if it works.

Andy

[Robert L Bass]

A. Seals wrote:
:
: Unfortunately, lightning struck the window of my house before the

: until was in place, so I don't know if it works.

Sure, you do. Without the unit lightning struck. Therefore, your home displays
a propensity to be hit by lightning without the unit. (NOT-A ~ B)
Now if we take the contrapositive... :*)

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota, FL 34233
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 voice (Florida)
941-926-9857 fax
Rober...@home.com
=============================>

[w_tom]

Did you also upgrade your central earth ground? The reason a 'whole house'
surge protector works: a surge protector is only as effective as its earth
ground. That also means the connection, through surge protector, to central
earth ground must be less than 10 feet.

For surge protection, all incoming utilities require a connection to earth
ground before servicing the house. Telephone lines already have such
protection. Did you visually confirm the NID (or Telephone Network Interface)
connect to that enhanced central earth ground? Its part of your surge
protection 'system'. Another critical part of that 'system' is that ground
wire on the transformer utility pole. They both can only be visually verified.

Same for the CATV and the incoming satellite dish wire. Individual
suppressors are typically useless - no less than 10 foot connection to earth
ground.

Surge protectors don't stop or absorb surges. This was defined in previous
posts of this thread. Surge protectors only shunt (short, connect, divert,
share) a surge from one wire to all others. Lets say you put a surge protector
on the CATV wire where it enters the TV. What does the surge do? It seeks
earth ground. The surge protector simply shunts that surge from one wire to all
wires. Now the surge has many paths to seek earth ground, destructively,
through your TV.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Plug-in surge
protectors are too far from ground to be effectively grounded. No earth ground
means no effective surge protection.

Notice how most, ineffective, overhyped, overpriced, plug-in surge protection
forgets to mention critical earth ground? That is the strong indicator that
they are not effective surge protection. A surge protector is only as effective
as its earth ground which is why effective surge protection has a dedicated
connection, short, to central earth ground.

Telephone service already has such protection at the premise interface.
Properly installed CATV should also already provide same.

[Larry Nielsen]

> For surge protection, all incoming utilities require a connection to
earth
> ground before servicing the house. Telephone lines already have such
> protection.

Make that "should have" such .......

The Bellsouth A-holes here run the ground wire to the outside garden hose
spigot. The house is plumbed with plastic pipe!

Check, check, check everything!

Regards, Larry Nielsen

[Malcolm W]

So, how do you feel about a good earth ground then? ;-)

I can see I'm going to have to go over everything with a fine tooth comb.

I have a lightning system and a whole house surge protector for a start.
Power company, telco and cable company all put their feeds in the ditch last
week and power and phone were terminated.

The NID is inside, right under the AC panel and whole house supressor.
Ground is right below to outside.

The ground wire for the NID is clamped to a heavy light green wire that
goes?....

Nowhere!

One end goes through an inside wall a few feet vaguely toward the sewer
pump. The other end is loose.

Haven't gotten a hold of the electrician to see if he knows what the story
is.

==========================================================
All sentences that don't include "earth ground" below were removed for
emphasis,
not to be a smart ass.
==========================================================

"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3C150C1A...@usa.net...

> Did you also upgrade your central earth ground?

> a surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

> That also means the connection, through surge protector, to central
> earth ground must be less than 10 feet.

> For surge protection, all incoming utilities require a connection to earth
> ground before servicing the house.

> Did you visually confirm the NID (or Telephone Network Interface)

> connect to that enhanced central earth ground? Its part of your surge
> protection 'system'. Another critical part of that 'system' is that
ground
> wire on the transformer utility pole.

> Individual suppressors are typically useless -

> no less than 10 foot connection to earth ground.

> It seeks earth ground.

> Now the surge has many paths to seek earth ground, destructively,
> through your TV.

> A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

> No earth ground means no effective surge protection.

> Notice how most, ineffective, overhyped, overpriced, plug-in surge
protection
> forgets to mention critical earth ground?

> A surge protector is only as effective

[w_tom]

Electricians know the code. The code is concerned with human safety; not
transistor safety. A ground for transistor safety traditionally must be
enhanced. Some basic guidelines for transistor safety grounding: The
connection must be short (less than 10 feet to a single point ground), direct
(no sharp bends, no splices, no passing inside metallic pipes or conduit), and
independent (every ground wire runs independent of other ground wires until they
all meet at the single point ground. Ground wires not, absolutely not, bundled
with other wires).

Unfortunately electricians like to make wires neat. Bad for transistor safety
grounds. No clean corners and wire making a bee line for the single point
ground is what you want.

Unfortunately new homes often contain superior Ufer ground - and we don't use
them. Ufer grounding is unnecessary for code but a perfectly superior and less
expensive grounding method. Having not installed it during the foundation, you
could install what others use to suffer no surge damage. See the cell phone
site example for an extreme version of superior grounding, including the
critical MGB (the single point ground window) in pictures at:
http://www.leminstruments.com/pdf/LEGP.pd or
http://leminstruments.com/grounding_tutorial/html/index.shtm .
You may have to first register at their home page to access the pictures.

The principal is to make the connection to earth through the single point
ground the best ground in the facility. Also to make the entire earth under the
building as equipotential as possible during the surge. IOW the entire building
could surge up to 1,000 volts but suffer no damage because everything inside is
equally at 1,000 volts AND because the surge is finding earth without entering
the building.

The telephone green wire is 10 AWG as is standard from the surge protection
inside the NID. Even the water pump should enter the building at the service
entrance so that it has a short connection to earth ground before wires
traverse the building. Satellite dish wire should also enter at the same
location.

Typically, this will all be new to your electrician who, for example, does not
understand that a 60 Hz AC ground wire can be long, but the same ground wire for
surge protection must be less than 10 feet. Wire has resistance to 60 Hz
current - maybe less than 0.2 ohms. But the same wire has impedance to surges -
maybe 130 ohms. Distance is not critical for human safety but is essential to
transistor safety. The connection to earth ground must be short, direct, and
independent - because a surge protector is only as effective as its earth
ground.

[Malcolm W]

Let's see how much of this I have right.

Phone
=====
The NID is inside, right under the panel. I'll take their ground wire and
clamp it to the main ground (right there) and run the phone lines from my
side of the NID through the SquareD surge protector.

Cable
=====
Comes in at the same point. I don't think they terminated it inside yet but
I'll do something similar to the phone.

Sat
=====
I'll bring them around the side of the house in a shallow trench and run
them through the SquareD as well. I'll use a grounding block and clamp to
the main ground.

I hope SquareD has a way to add phone and cable modules.

Driveway probes
============
Enter building at the same point where they will connect to a powerflash
module in an outlet right under the panel that also connects directly to the
main ground.

I didn't want to run them right to the panel.

Well pump
========
Other side of the house. They plan on running back to the panel through the
basement. I don't think it would be that much more expensive to run around
the building.

Grinder pump
==========
Same deal here. I should try to get it run around the side, it's right by
the sat dish.

Pool
====
Should this go out through the single point also?

Outdoor Lighting
============
Same question. They are on opposite sides (as well as the pool). The
switch is not close either but that is less of a problem since all the
switches are ALC so I can control something else with no problem.

Lightning
=======
4 rods are on the chimney and one on the end of each gable. These are tied
together at the chimney and go down to three points. One is two feet from
the main ground and is jumpered. The others are at opposite corners.

By the way, I couldn't find a link to register at the leminstruments site.

Thanks for all the good info.

Malcolm

"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3C163422...@usa.net...

[Larry Nielsen]

> Grinder pump
> ==========

Just curious. What is a grinder pump?

Thanks, Larry Nielsen

[w_tom]

The ground wire from NID should exit the building and meet the panel ground
wire only where both attached to central ground. The telephone and power
grounds must be common per the NEC. The grounds must run separate to the ground
rod just so that a surge on one is less likely to travel back in the other.

The well water wire can travel through the basement if it is kept clear of all
other wires. The reason for an exterior path to the breaker box is that it is
just that much easier to electrically isolate that potential ground from all
other wires - from electromagnetic coupling. The closer the water storage tank
is to service entrance, then the easier it is to electrically ground the well
pump system to a single point ground even if wire must run inside the building.

Cable should always drop down to earth where a 10 AWG ground wire connects
from the cable to the outside central earth ground. Only then does the cable
enter the building. Again, the cable must meet with all other grounds to
satisfy NEC. But it should meet those other grounds at the single point ground
rod and not share a ground wire connection to that ground rod.

CATV and Telephone NID are traditionally installed on the building outside
which is why the ground wire so easily connects to the exterior ground rod. Why
are your premise interface connections inside?

Pool - treat all wires to a pool as if the pool was a separate structure. For
example, all lines between your building and the telephone building are
connected to your central earth ground and to their central earth ground before
the wire enters your building or their building. Basically treat the pool wires
like the pump wires. Treat those wires as if coming from another structure and
don't let them into the building until they have first encountered your single
point ground window.

If you are trenching around the house, then consider also burying a bare
copper ground wire in that trench as exampled in that Leminstrument diagram. I
believe NEC requires the ground wire to be 6 AWG or larger. It also requires
the trench to be at least 2 feet deep. Since the trench exists, then the
quality of your single point earth ground would be enhanced by that buried
ground wire connecting direct to the single point ground..

Outdoor lights - technically should also be single point grounded before they
enter the building. However there does become a point where a good thing can be
too much. If such routing becomes difficult, then maybe don't bother.

The one part I would not compromise on is to expand the single point ground if
it is convenient.

For those cell phone site diagrams at leminstruments, first enter their store
and go to the page for "GEO Earth/Ground Testers ". At the bottom of that page
is a hyperlink for "Electrical Grounding Techniques; Ground Resistance
Principles, Testing, Techniques & Applications". That should take you to the
application notes on grounding, measuring grounds, and demonstrate how the
single point ground (MGB) is enhanced for better surge protection.

The idea is not to duplicate what they have done but to select and use those
principals where they are convenient for you to use. But don't compromise on
making single point ground the best earth ground connection to earth.

Malcolm W wrote:

> Let's see how much of this I have right.
>
> Phone
> =====
> The NID is inside, right under the panel. I'll take their ground wire and
> clamp it to the main ground (right there) and run the phone lines from my
> side of the NID through the SquareD surge protector.
>
> Cable
> =====
> Comes in at the same point. I don't think they terminated it inside yet but
> I'll do something similar to the phone.
>
> Sat
> =====
> I'll bring them around the side of the house in a shallow trench and run
> them through the SquareD as well. I'll use a grounding block and clamp to
> the main ground.
>
> I hope SquareD has a way to add phone and cable modules.

> ...

[Malcolm W]

Thanks again for responding with all the good stuff.

"w_tom" <w_t...@usa.net> wrote in message news:3C1F97AF...@usa.net...

> The ground wire from NID should exit the building and meet the panel
ground
> wire only where both attached to central ground. The telephone and power
> grounds must be common per the NEC. The grounds must run separate to the
ground
> rod just so that a surge on one is less likely to travel back in the
other.

OK, will do. With CATV also.

> The well water wire can travel through the basement if it is kept clear
of all
> other wires. The reason for an exterior path to the breaker box is that
it is
> just that much easier to electrically isolate that potential ground from
all
> other wires - from electromagnetic coupling. The closer the water storage
tank
> is to service entrance, then the easier it is to electrically ground the
well
> pump system to a single point ground even if wire must run inside the
building.

I'll have to check that. I think the tank is to go in the back also. And
the feed line has been run as well.
I might be able to rearrange the feed since the ceiling won't be finished
right away.

What's the minimum distance of clearance? I assume that running parallel is
worse than crossing at 90 degrees.

> CATV and Telephone NID are traditionally installed on the building
outside
> which is why the ground wire so easily connects to the exterior ground
rod. Why
> are your premise interface connections inside?

Darned if I know. Conduit runs from the tranformer pad to the building and
there is nice fake stone so maybe they didn't want to make it ugly. I could
probably move it out if needed.

> Pool - treat all wires to a pool as if the pool was a separate structure.
For
> example, all lines between your building and the telephone building are
> connected to your central earth ground and to their central earth ground
before
> the wire enters your building or their building. Basically treat the pool
wires
> like the pump wires. Treat those wires as if coming from another
structure and
> don't let them into the building until they have first encountered your
single
> point ground window.

I can do that. I need to get a more direct circuit of water to the oil
burner and back but it will be in plastic.

> If you are trenching around the house, then consider also burying a bare
> copper ground wire in that trench as exampled in that Leminstrument
diagram. I
> believe NEC requires the ground wire to be 6 AWG or larger. It also
requires
> the trench to be at least 2 feet deep. Since the trench exists, then the
> quality of your single point earth ground would be enhanced by that buried
> ground wire connecting direct to the single point ground..

Sounds good.

> Outdoor lights - technically should also be single point grounded before
they
> enter the building. However there does become a point where a good thing
can be
> too much. If such routing becomes difficult, then maybe don't bother.

Next year at the earliest.

> The one part I would not compromise on is to expand the single point
ground if
> it is convenient.

> The idea is not to duplicate what they have done but to select and use

those
> principals where they are convenient for you to use. But don't compromise
on
> making single point ground the best earth ground connection to earth.

I did something like that but much simpler at two different repeater sites
and never had a problem after.

I'll see what I can do here.

Thanks

[Malcolm W]

"Larry Nielsen" <lar...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:hxLT7.200566$er5.1...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...

> > Grinder pump
> > ==========
>
> Just curious. What is a grinder pump?

About seven feet high and $3000. You bury it up the the lid (which looks
like a green garbage can top) and it grinds up the household sewerage and
pumps it under pressure through a 2" plastic line in the general direction
of the processing plant.

[w_tom]

My guess would be to keep wires to the pump at least 6 inches from any other
wires. There is another alternative to try. A surge is less likely to seek
earth ground through the pump if the AC wire is inside metallic conduit. The
conduit act as increased inductance to the higher frequency surge currents. IOW
wire inside a conduit that is only grounded at the breaker box side. The
problem with this is code wants conduit grounded at both ends so that a ground
currents can travel on the conduit. But you don't want that current seeking
earth through the pump wires. You want to encourage higher frequency current to
seek earth ground at the single point ground window. IOW the conduit idea is a
good solution but, as I understand NEC code, it is a violation of code.

Conduit not only discourages surge current from using pump wires, but also
isolates pump wires from other household wires.

We are, of course trying to 'dot every I'. Convenience determines, in part,
how extensive your surge protection system will be.