VU1 ESL bulbs with HA dimmers?
unfrostedpoptart
www.vu1.com). Looks really good and seems to address a lot of the
problems of CFL and LED. They specifically talk about (and show) that
it dims smoothly on normal dimmers. I was wondering if anyone knows
how they would work with X10/Insteon/etc electronic dimmers and the
infamous local-control problems.
I've given up on adding any more HA gear until there's a good,
inexpensive, high-efficiency, light bulb available that I can actually
dim!
David
Dave Houston
if they will work with X10 or Insteon dimmers. However, the fact that the
power factor is less than unity indicates they have an internal power supply
and that frequently causes problems with electronic dimmers.
Their demo is impressive. If they can pull off the A bulb at a reasonable
price, they likely have a winner. As it is, they will likely drive a stake
through the heart of CFL and LED reflectors.
D&SW
based technology just like flourescent bulbs, but rather than using
ultaviolet stimulation, they are using electron beam stimulation like an old
television CRT. So the question is what is the next thing we have to worry
about, X-ray emissions from our ESL bulbs?
Tagging on the Dave Houston's train of thought, With regard to X10 the ESL
probably will work in everything but the two wire wall switch, which relies
on a trickle of power through the filament of an incandescent bulb. But I'll
be waiting to see some independent lab analysis for secondary emissions. I
have feeling this is the new version of the foot/shoe X-ray machine that
every shoe store had back in the 40s and 50s until it was figured out they
were a big cancer hazard.
"unfrostedpoptart" <da...@therogoffs.com> wrote in message
news:d8a1f691-bef0-4d34...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Dave Houston
highly unlikely that the voltages involved will be anywhere near high enough
to generate significant x-ray emissions.
Here's an IBM blurb about x-rays from CRT type computer monitors that puts
it in perspective.
http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/healthycomputing/vdt14.html
But, your point about waiting for independent lab analysis is certainly
apropos as I'm sure the manufacturer is trying to show their light in the
best light.
aloe65
http://forums.cabling-design.com/homeautomation/VU1-ESL-bulbs-with-HA-dimmers-18550-.htm
:
Pure Spectrum has now patented a CFL build that is fully dimmable(no
flicker or dying out), instant on, cold to the touch, highest power
factor(.96), and the energy usage is proportional to the dimming level,
the light output is that of an incandescent and the price will be in the
$4-$6 range. This is the answer to the NEW CFL!
The have numerous patents and are manufacturing and filling orders now
worldwide. Utility companies are buying them up in the droves for their
free distribution program. The utility companies love them because it
costs them less to deliver the power to these bulbs due to the extremely
High Power Factor. ...which means the utility companies charge you less!
The also have a dimmable ballast for linear fluorescents(yes, you will be
able to dim fluorescents), also at a fraction of the cost of normal
ballast due to the fewer parts that they use in the ballast. This will be
huge, imagine a high rise office building in which the fluorescent lights
dim with the amount of sunlight coming in,....daylight harvesting at a
fraction of the cost...HUGE SAVINGS.
Hopefully the bulbs will be on Home Depot and Wal Mart shelves soon.
-------------------------------------
unfrostedpoptart wrote:
> David
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Joesepi
This all sounds good but time will tell if they can even deliver the first
bulb.
"unfrostedpoptart" <da...@therogoffs.com> wrote in message
news:d8a1f691-bef0-4d34...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Marc_F_Hult
<da...@therogoffs.com> wrote in message
<d8a1f691-bef0-4d34...@z3g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:
>I've just been reading about VU1's new ESL bulb technology (http://
>www.vu1.com). Looks really good and seems to address a lot of the
>problems of CFL and LED. They specifically talk about (and show) that
>it dims smoothly on normal dimmers.
All the CFL and LED lamps that we use that are designed to dim do so
"smoothly". Is 'non-smooth ' dimming something you've personally experienced,
or something that you've read/heard about? My own experiences with
'non-smooth dimming' is limited to the infamous 'full-on before dim'
characteristic of X-10 ( eg WS-467) dimmers.
If what you mean is that incandescent lamps not only have a greater _range_
in actual light output (lumens) than CFLs and LEDs, but also change color
temperature in a familiar and often desirable way when dimmed, then the
not-yet-available ESL lamp from VU1 will not satisfy your need either (but
new generation RGBx LEDs with new control mechanisms such as DMX might).
>I was wondering if anyone knows
>how they would work with X10/Insteon/etc electronic dimmers and the
>infamous local-control problems.
If by "local-control problems" you are asking whether they will work without
a neutral conductor as the X10 WS-467 does, I wouldn't hold my breath --
partly because the consumer demand for a lamp that provides the required
trickle circuit is miniscule. While we still used WS-467's the air-gap
switch that was required by the use of the trickle current, those X$%#
switches were the single most frequent source of Home Automation 'failure'
because an unsuspecting elder or visitor or non-geek would move the air-gap
switch and so 'break' the light. Set WAF back a decade.
>I've given up on adding any more HA gear until there's a good,
>inexpensive, high-efficiency, light bulb available that I can actually
>dim!
I am generally pleased with the "good,inexpensive, high-efficiency, light
bulb [s] ... that I can actually dim" that we currently use. (Another example
not previously mentioned in this news group was replacing the
INSTEON-controlled MR16 halogen in my bed reading lamp with an MR-16 LED.)
... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
D&SW
thinner and non leaded as in a CRT. I was just thinking of back in the late
60s, early 70s (yeah, I'm a geezer, not a geek) when government mandated
more shielding around high voltage rectifier and damper cage in TVs because
of X-rays out the bottom of the set. I think this applied to B&W sets also.
Perhaps I have been living too long in the "progressive" world of Chicken
Little and the Sky is Falling. ;-)
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4be9d...@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
Radiation increases with the voltage. It's not likely that these lights will
have anywhere near that voltage - not if they are going to fit existing
fixtures.
Joesepi
The 12" sets only ran about 10-15kV and the X-radiation didn't really start
until higher levels were used.
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4ab843ef...@nntp.fuse.net...
Ian Shef
news:4ab843ef...@nntp.fuse.net:
> I think that was only for color TVs where the voltage is 32,000 volts.
> Radiation increases with the voltage. It's not likely that these lights
> will have anywhere near that voltage - not if they are going to fit
> existing fixtures.
The TVs get the same line voltage that these bulbs get. Also, high voltage
supplies can be made quite tiny if the current is low and if the environment
suppresses arcing.
While I agree that these bulbs are likely to be safe, I think that the issue
bears scrutiny. Trust, but verify!
B Fuhrmann
FALSE
> This all sounds good but time will tell if they can even deliver the first
> bulb.
TRUE
B Fuhrmann
>>www.vu1.com). Looks really good and seems to address a lot of the
>>problems of CFL and LED. They specifically talk about (and show) that
>>it dims smoothly on normal dimmers.
>
> All the CFL and LED lamps that we use that are designed to dim do so
> "smoothly". Is 'non-smooth ' dimming something you've personally
> experienced,
> or something that you've read/heard about? My own experiences with
> 'non-smooth dimming' is limited to the infamous 'full-on before dim'
> characteristic of X-10 ( eg WS-467) dimmers.
I suspect that there is a confusion of terms. I have seen "dimmable" CFLs
and LEDs that dim "smothly" for a little range and then suddenly turn off.
I would not consider that a smoothly dimming bulb.
Dave Houston
recall, higher voltages are required for higher delection of the beam so the
bigger the CRT the higher the voltage. Few B&W TVs had large screens so they
had lower voltages. Since these folks are not deflecting a beam, the voltage
is likely to be much less. And, even if they were deflecting a beam, the
"screen" size is much, much smaller than a TV.
I asked Vu1 about the internal voltage and whether the bulbs emit x-rays and
got the following (non)response.
"Detail specifications will be made available after independent and UL lab
testing have completed. Please refer to our website and blog site for
current updates."
I do not know whether UL will test for x-rays.
Joesepi
deflection but rather the amount of energy to light up the increased area of
a larger screen in the same amount of time. The voltage on the deflection
plates may need to be higher to change the angle amount.
I would conclude to get 50, 100 or even 200W of light a fair bit of energy
would be required and therefore a large voltage, also. What was the enrgy of
light output from the ole' CRT screen. I always had about 300W, in mind, for
a larger TV set. but only based on rough hearsay from TV guys.
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4aba5e35...@nntp.fuse.net...
Dave Houston
cathode of the electron gun causes it to emit electrons which are then
focused into a beam, accelerated and guided by other electrodes. The amount
of delection depends on the voltage on the deflection plates. Only an area
the (unchanging) diameter of the very thin beam "lights up" as the beam
traverses the screen. It's the kinetic energy of the beam which causes this
- not an electrical interaction.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question694.htm
http://www.scienceclarified.com/Ca-Ch/Cathode-Ray-Tube.html
Electron guns are not limited to CRTs.
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/accelerators/electrongun.html
http://www.kimballphysics.com/electron_guns/egun_prod.htm
Charles Sullivan
Hold on there... The horizontal and vertical deflection of the electron
beam in a TV CRT is normally accomplished magnetically with steering
coils.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/tv5.htm
Dave Houston
days electrostatic deflection was prevalent.
This page gives an explanation of the x-rays and of the high voltage. I
still am pretty sure that these new bulbs will not have such high voltages
nor emit x-rays.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube
Dave Houston
equivalent LED bulb from Philips that has the same color as a 60W
incandescent. It doesn't say anything about heat, power factor or
compatibility with existing dimmers and, while it has no specific cost
numbers, indicates it _might_ eventually sell for $20-25. (That may be
wishful thinking.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/technology/25bulb.html?hp
I especially liked this paragraph about the Energy Department...
"At first, the department set no standards for compact fluorescent bulbs and
inferior products flooded the market. Consumers rebelled against the bulbs�
shortcomings: the light output from compact fluorescent bulbs was cold and
unpleasant, their life was much shorter than claimed, many were large and
undimmable, they would not work in cold environments and they contained
polluting mercury."
They didn't note that many of the CFLs also put out about half as much light
as claimed, even when new. But, otherwise, they made most of the points that
I made here when the big push for CFLs first began. Of course, when they
outlaw CFLs, Wall Mart will make out yet again.
Marc_F_Hult
message <4abc9b71...@nntp.fuse.net>:
>This is getting interesting. Today's NYT has an article on a new 60W
>equivalent LED bulb from Philips that has the same color as a 60W
>incandescent. It doesn't say anything about heat, power factor or
>compatibility with existing dimmers and, while it has no specific cost
>numbers, indicates it _might_ eventually sell for $20-25. (That may be
>wishful thinking.)
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/technology/25bulb.html?hp
>
>I especially liked this paragraph about the Energy Department...
>
>"At first, the department set no standards for compact fluorescent bulbs and
>inferior products flooded the market. Consumers rebelled against the bulbs�
>shortcomings: the light output from compact fluorescent bulbs was cold and
>unpleasant, their life was much shorter than claimed, many were large and
>undimmable, they would not work in cold environments and they contained
>polluting mercury."
>
>They didn't note that many of the CFLs also put out about half as much light
>as claimed, even when new.
ROTFL: But the article does say that " We test LED bulbs today that they're
equivalent to 40 watts but are really like 20 watt bulbs". New product same
story.
Fox-like, Dave continues to purposely distort and selectively report in order
to support his misguided claim that CFL's were a "bad idea" and that nothing
had changed in 10 years.
In fact, many issues with early CFLs were largely the same as with _all_
fluorescent lamps and have largely been resolved. The early exaggerated
claims for CFL output are now paralleled by exaggerated claims for LEDs. This
is the nature of an unregulated marketplace that has next to nothing to do
intrinsically with CFLs ( or LEDs or widgets).
>But, otherwise, they made most of the points that
>I made here when the big push for CFLs first began.
No. Most importantly, Dave said that CFLs were a "bad idea" and that nothing
had changed in 10 years and maligned the very folks working to test, and
regulate and refine CFLs into the better product that they evolved into.
What the NY Times article does state is that "the department considers the
INTRODUCTION [emphasis added] of compact fluorescents, today's alternative to
standard bulbs, to have been in a debacle. At first, the department set no
standards for compact fluorescent bulbs and inferior products flooded the
market."
In my experience, it is human nature for the first of otherwise comparable
changes to encounter more resistance than subsequent, similar changes. The
introduction of LEDs -- and all of _its_ problems -- will have an easier time
of it because CFLs -- and regular fluorescents before CFLs -- paved the way.
And FACT is that all reduction in energy use and CO2 emissions and reduced
mercury pollution that has occurred in the last 15 years because of the use
of CFLs would not have occurred is we were still waiting for the perfect
alternative. All it takes is a trip or two outside the US to see the enormous
popularity of CFLs around the world and the great benefits that they provide.
Those are all actual benefits that actually would have been lost if the
naysayers and hyper-critics had prevailed.
... Marc
_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
J Miller
load of an LED Bulb.
If it's too low, the current sense of something like an x10 module will
get "confused.
It will only be a month or so before posts start showing up here about
"why wont my x10 module work right with my LED xmas lights? They are
always on with a low dim!"
Dave Houston
uses 10W. That means it draws at least 83mA - but it's sure to draw more
than that because the power factor (unknown at this time) is certain to be
less than unity. 0.08333/PF will give the total current.
I think we'll have to wait to see how they perform with X10.
ginchinchili
http://forums.cabling-design.com/homeautomation/Re-VU1-ESL-bulbs-with-HA-dimmers-18555-.htm
:
aloe65, I've seen this exact same post in a few different places, all of
them on threads commenting about Vu1. Sounds like SPAM to me, or are you
just feeling as if Vu1 is a threat to your PureSpectrum investment?
Not only is this spaming, but you're not telling the truth, i.e., you're
misleading people. PureSpectrum's bulbs are not fully dimmable, and I know
you know that. They dim down to about 10%, then flicker off, which is
about the same as most dimmable CFLs. I've seen 3 different videos of
PureSpectrum's bulbs being dimmed and each one cuts off the camera just
before they are finished dimming. And I should point out that Vu1's bulbs
ARE FULLY dimmable, just like an incandescent.
Furthermore, you can't validate any sales by Vu1 and yet you'd have these
people believing that people are "buying them up in droves." That's simply
not true. Right now you couldn't produce one bit of evidence that verifies
that PureSpectrum has any sales, except for a press release put out by a
company run by a man, Tony Golden, who owns 20 million shares of
PureSpectrum. But you can't produce anything verifiable.
Also, according to the S-4 they filed w/the SEC on Sept 3, they haven't
completed developing the prototype for their ballasts, much less selling
them. Nor do they have any funding and they're burning through money. This
company's in bad shape and you're freaking out because the stock's been
dropping and you're losing money.
If you're going to SPAM, at least stick with the truth.
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-------------------------------------
aloe65 wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> unfrostedpoptart wrote:
>> David
| comp.home.automation - 16673 messages and counting! |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Joesepi
of the beam "
The electron beam is created by a combo of a hot emitter and high voltage
difference between the filament and the phospours on the screen. There are
focusing electrodes and magnetic deflectors in the process of getting the
electron beam to "get there". In a scope, plates are used mainly, but in
TVs, where the Xrays are a problem, magnetic coils (yoke) are used to
deflect the beam.
The voltages required for "deflection of the beam" are not the "high
voltage" problem. As I stated, The "voltage of the electron beam" is the
problem. Perhaps now you should remember... the high voltage that the
flyback transformer creates? Heating the cathode (filament) only makes the
electrons available and not "emit". The high voltage differential applied
across the cathode to screen (beam path) causes them to "emit".
As fas as the "kinetic energy" read the article link you posted. Not the
first one, it's for children. Damn! Busted again!
"Dave Houston" <nob...@whocares.com> wrote in message
news:4abb7d7d...@nntp.fuse.net...
aloe65
:
PSPM is the superior bulb, not just in price but in overall quality. VU1
hasn't produced anything close to the PSPM bulb. On the contrary, it
sounds like you are nervous about the PSPM product hitting the market and
drowning out ESL technology.
-------------------------------------
ginchinchili wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> aloe65 wrote:
>> -------------------------------------
>> unfrostedpoptart wrote:
>>> David
| comp.home.automation - 16676 messages and counting! |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
aloe65
http://forums.cabling-design.com/homeautomation/VU1-ESL-bulbs-with-HA-dimmers-18550-.htm
:
Pure Spectrum is about to release a CFL that is dimmable with a
conventional dimmer. It will smooothly dim to 10% with an "instant on"
capability too. They have an extremely high power factor(.96) and the
power useage will be proprtional to the dimming level that you have set,
whic his a great conservation aspect. The light level is supposed to be
very good and it will be "cold to the touch" also. Unlike a lot of new
technology like LED's and ESL's, they will be in the $4-$6 range, and not
$20-$25. There is a lot of junk on the market shelves these days with
reference to CFL's, I believe this bulb has addressed all the concerns
that consumers have to CFL's. I am waiting for it to hit the market.
-------------------------------------
unfrostedpoptart wrote:
> David
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ginchinchili
$6 is wrong. The following link will take people to a site where this
bulb you keep touting is available online: http://www.microlamp.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?
The price of the bulb is $8.95. Also, this "PureSpectrum" bulb you
continuously pump is only a PureSpectrum bulb in name. The bulb is
made by Litetronics who is allowing PureSpectrum to sell it using
their name. It's just another dimmable CFL. I personally think this
arrangement is suspicious because it really doesn't make sense.
PureSpectrum had been promoting their super CFL for over 2 years now
and finally come out with a non-proprietary bulb made by Litetronics.
Sounds like a bait and switch scheme to me.
On Sep 28, 8:13 am, jdsafe_at_hotmail_dot_...@foo.com (aloe65) wrote:
> aloe65 had written this in response tohttp://forums.cabling-design.com/homeautomation/VU1-ESL-bulbs-with-HA...