LED dimmable bulbs with X10 switches

[Bob F]

I just bought some Cree LED soft white "60W" "4FLOW filamant design" bulbs.

On one circuit, with just one bulb, the bulb lights at a mid level when off or
full brightness when switched on at the switch. The switches involved are the
old X10 switches with a lower section that slides to the left to cut off all
power. The problem is that the X10 controller cannot turn that bulb either on or
off. Turning other circuits using the same controller continues to work fine.

On another circuit, there is a 2 bulb fixture downstairs and a 2 bulb fixture
upstairs, all currently incandescent bulbs. If I remove one of the incandescent
bulbs downstairs and replace it with the LED bulb, everything works OK, with the
incandescent bulbs dimming much more than the LED bulb when the dimming function
is used. When I removed the downstairs incandescent bulb,leaving the LED bulb,
again I could not control the lights with the X10 controller. This is despite
the 2 incandescent bulbs in the upstairs fixture.

Has anyone here seen similar problems, and come up with any solutions to them?

I do realize that the low brightness issue in the off position of the initial
circuit is do to the switch sense feature of the X10 switches, and that the
incandescent bulbs in the second circuit eliminate that problem there.

[Bob F]

I just tried the second circuit again, and it seems I can turn in off with the
controller, but not on.

[Pat]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 11:03:33 -0800, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Interesting. The last time I was in Home Depot, I saw those. I
suppose they disipate heat better than the old sealed ones. The
application I was buying bulbs for is outside and has lots of insects
in the summer, so I bought the older style to avoid those slots from
becoming filled with dead insects.

Anyway, the older style work well with my X10 installation. However,
I am using older smarthome wall switches (old, but not as old as your
even older switches). So, I'm not sure if the 4FLOWs make more noise
or my switches handle them better. Good luck.

[Geoff]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 11:03:33 -0800, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

You are dealing with a limitation in the triacs in the X10 that switch
the current to the load on and off. There is a minimum sustaining
current that a triac needs to keep itself on after it's been fired by
the trigger circuit. Replacing an incandescent with an LED can put you
below that minimum current and cause the triac in the X10 module to
turn itself off.

The load required by an X10 dimmer varies with the manufacturer but
what I've found during a quick google search is a 40W minimum might be
typical. At 120VAC this means the minimum load current needs to be
around 0.33 Amps.

With LED technology you need to ignore the "wattage" of the bulb since
it's an equivalent rating, not a power consumption rating. A Cree 60W
equivalent bulb uses only 9 to 9.5 Watts in the soft-white and
daylight types and that's less than 0.08 Amps at 120 volts, a very
economical current indeed and about 4 times less current than a 40W
incandescent will draw.

If it's a multi-bulb fixture you can add three more LED bulbs to get
the total current up into the sustaining range of the X10 but it may
be more economical to use an appliance module instead. It uses a relay
and you lose the dimming capability and the "all lights on" capability
but if remote on-off is your desire then it's definitely preferable to
loading up on LED's just to get back into the higher current draw that
LED's are supposed to be avoiding.

P.S. I love my Cree LED bulbs and I've made it my goal to replace all
my incandescents with Cree bulbs as the incandescents burn out.

[Bob F]

The switch at the wall has no trouble turning them on and off. It's only the
remote control that has the problem, which would make me think it's a
communication problem rather than a triac holding voltage problem.

I did just go try the bulb in another lamp controlled by an appliance module.
Interestingly, this bulb did not glow when off like the other LED bulb that had
been in that lamp. It also switched on/off remotely just fine.

Wierdness!

[Geoff]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 17:33:48 -0800, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>

Yes, that you will get weirdness when running X10 units without a
minimum load is well-documented for years.

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Power_Products/Power_Management/Efficient_dimming_for_LED_lighting.aspx

[Art Todesco]

Yes, and from what I understand, they are made in the USA in NC! Well,
at least, "assembled in USA". And, one more thing about x10, some of
the newer modules have less control current than the old ones. I used a
Smarthome unit to power a string of LED Christmas lights. Most modules I
tried, would have them glowing in the off setting. However, the with
the SH unit they glowed so little, that you'd have to look very
carefully in a totally dark room to even see the slight glow. BTW, I
even tried a few modified modules that used a solid state relay and
there was enough leakage to make some LED bulbs glow. And this
modification had the monitoring current removed.

[mea...@gmail.com]

Excellent Reference Article!
Thank you.

[Bob F]

I recently picked up a couple Philips "Slimstyle 10.5W (60W Repl.)" Dimmable
bulbs #9290002707. These bulbs work fine in both X10 situations described above.
On the X10 dimming wall switch, they turn on and off fine, and dim fine with
incandescent bulbs also on the circuit, although the incandescents are pretty
dim before the LEDs dim much. On the other lamp with an appliance module, they
turn completely off when turned off, whereas the Cree bulb put out significant
light, like a nite light, when off.

These philips bulbs look a little wierd, as they are relatively flat, with a
flat panel in the middle of a LED tube.

https://www.bulbamerica.com/products/philips-slimstyle-10-5w-a19-led-2700k-dimmable-bulb-60w-equivalent?CAWELAID=120150920000718360&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=120150920000714548&cadevice=c&gclid=CIvb_fTHnsYCFQVbfgodkxsDNQ

Mine were $4 at HD, but that could be a Seattle City Light subsidized price, as
the Cree bulbs were previously.

[Bob F]

I just bought a Phillips 8W LED spot lamp, model 9290002329, which work
perfectly with an old X10 lamp module. Turns on and off and dims, all perfectly.
Along with a gooseneck lamp I just picked up, this combo will make a perfect bed
reading lamp, bright, and focused to not light up any more area than needed.

I'm really liking these Phillips LED bulbs.

[Art Todesco]

One little, ok big, thing. I have had to be careful of noise from LED
bulbs, actually the electronics that drives the LEDs. I bought 4 of
these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NV1YAC4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
for use in a range hood.
And every time any one of them was on, all X10 communications in the
house, was blocked by noise from the bulb. So I replaced them with
these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KRJZXV0?&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00
Even though they were a completely different design, they did the same
thing. I have many LED bulbs in the house and none have behaved like
this. Even the LED strips driven by 12 volt switching power supplies,
didn't cause noise.

BTW, even though these were dimmable, they were not being dimmed. And
they were not on an X10 controller. I could have installed a filter in
the range hood, to keep the noise from getting to the rest of the house,
however, they should work and I didn't want to kludge up the install.

I ended up replacing them with 35 watt halogen bulbs, the same as they
were for the last 5 years. Still trying to find an LED lamp in that form
factor that will work!