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Z-Wave Pool Thermostat with Water Temperature Sensor

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Richard Kaplan

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Sep 23, 2007, 8:09:28 PM9/23/07
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I am researching options to control a pool heating system as part of a
home automation system.

The Homeseer website lists a Z-wave thermostat (TZ40) from a company
called RCS, which also makes an optional remote pool/spa temperature
sensor (RSP2).

My thought is that I would install the TZ40 and RSP2 very close to my
pool pump/plumbing. Then I would set up a computer with home
automation software and a z-wave receiver elsewhere in thse house
(probably Homeseer with the Maestro Heat & Air Plug-in.

I got a technical service reply from RCS, however, saying that the RSP2
is discontinued and RCS no longer offers any type of pool/spa control.
Also RCS suggets that "this may not be too practical a use for z-wave
topology since it's a mesh network type of RF transmission and requires
retransmitters out to the pool pad area."

Are there other manufacturers who make a z-wave thermostat with a pool
water sensor? Is it true that z-wave is not a practical use for this
application? If so, what other design would be better?


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

b_weijenberg

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Sep 24, 2007, 1:54:55 AM9/24/07
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Hi Richard,

You can use an Oregon Scientific water temp sensor THWR288.
The Homeseer xAP plug-in supports this type of sensor already and the
ACRF2 plug-in will support it in the near future.
To receive the Oregon sensors you need an RFXCOM 433.92MHz receiver.

RFXCOM has USB connected receivers and using the newest Ethernet
connected receivers you can put your Home Automation receivers and
transmitter now on the optimum location for receiving all sensors in
your property. No longer problems with RF noise radiated by the PC.
Simply put the receiver at a larger distance from the PC with a LAN or
WLAN connection and it makes the receiver now more sensitive.

If the Ethernet interface is connected to the Internet it enables you
to add remote locations to your Home Automation system. Connect your
holiday home to receive the security sensors, temperature and humidity
and switch X10 or control Harrison curtains or even control and check
the home of your grandmother.

All existing Home Automation software that runs on a Windows platform
and has interfacing software for the W800RF receiver or the RFXCOM
receiver can use the RFXCOM Ethernet interface without any
modification in the HA software thanks to the CPR (COM Port
Redirector) software. This CPR software emulates a standard COM port
in Windows.

On other platforms like Mac and Linux, the communication protocol is
via TCP/IP with the receivers and transmitter. Of course, TCP/IP
communication is also possible on the Windows platforms.

All RFXCOM receivers have a W800RF compatible receiving mode and the
RFXCOM receiver translates all received non-X10 RF packets (like
Visonic, SecureLinc, KlikOn-KlikOff, Domia Lite) to an equivalent X10
packet. This makes it possible to process those non-X10 sensors and
remotes by all X10 oriented Home Automation software without any
modification in this Home Automation software.


There are 4 different types of RFXCOM Ethernet interfaces.
1. LAN with 1 COM port and connections for 1 or 2 receivers OR 1
transmitter,
2. WLAN with 2 COM ports and connections for 1 or 2 receivers AND 1
transmitter,
3. LAN with 2 COM ports and connections for 1 or 2 receivers AND 1
transmitter,
4. WLAN+LAN with 2 COM ports and connections for 1 or 2 receivers AND
1 transmitter.

http://www.rfxcom.com/receivers.htm

Bert

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 2:15:13 AM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 01:54:55 -0400, b_weijenberg <b_weij...@hotmail.com> said:

> You can use an Oregon Scientific water temp sensor THWR288.
> The Homeseer xAP plug-in supports this type of sensor already and the
> ACRF2 plug-in will support it in the near future.
> To receive the Oregon sensors you need an RFXCOM 433.92MHz receiver.

Thanks... it looks like that would work as a standalone thermometer.

What I am looking for though is a thermostat, not just a thermometer.
I would like this thermostat to sense the temperature in my pool and
then control my pool heater. Any idea how I can do that?

Dave Houston

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Sep 24, 2007, 6:42:13 AM9/24/07
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Richard Kaplan <rka...@flyimc.com> wrote:

>Also RCS suggets that "this may not be too practical a use for z-wave
>topology since it's a mesh network type of RF transmission and requires
>retransmitters out to the pool pad area."
>
>Are there other manufacturers who make a z-wave thermostat with a pool
>water sensor? Is it true that z-wave is not a practical use for this
>application? If so, what other design would be better?

Let me understand this - a manufacturer of a Z-Wave thermostat has told you
this is not a good application and you still to use Z-Wave for this? While
you may find greedy dealers who neither know nor care about suitability, you
should give a lot of credence when a manufacturer indicates you should look
elsewhere.

In general, Z-Wave and all other FCC-compliant RF devices have limited range
(although, outdoors with no obstructions is "best case"). Z-Wave and some
other mesh networks overcome this by using multiple units to relay the
signals but Z-Wave has a maximum number of hops (4 in the standard setup)
which limits the maximum distance even with multiple units. There are also
some issues with feedback from Z-Wave devices and Z-Wave devices relay the
signal sequentially so there are delays proportional to the number of hops.

I would not recommend RF as the heart of the system for this application.

There are numerous companies that specialize in automated pool controls.
Google using "pool automation" and you will be overwhelmed with choices.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 9:31:44 AM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 06:42:13 -0400, nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) said:

> Let me understand this - a manufacturer of a Z-Wave thermostat has told you
> this is not a good application and you still to use Z-Wave for this? While

Yes and no. They NO LONGER manufacture z-wave thermostats. Granted,
maybe that means it didn't work well.


> In general, Z-Wave and all other FCC-compliant RF devices have limited range
> (although, outdoors with no obstructions is "best case"). Z-Wave and some


But the distance involved here is no more than for any other devices in
my house. Is distance the only concern?

> I would not recommend RF as the heart of the system for this application.
> There are numerous companies that specialize in automated pool controls.
> Google using "pool automation" and you will be overwhelmed with choices.

Yes and no. Jandy's system for example is apparently proprietary and
cannot be operated over the Interernet except with some major hacking.
And Intermatic uses z-wave technology on a dedicated pool automation
system - so why does it work there?

What "official" or dedicated pool automation system which doesn't use
z-wave can be operated via the Internet?

Robert L Bass

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:06:57 AM9/24/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
> I am researching options to control a pool heating system as part
> of a home automation system.
>
> The Homeseer website lists a Z-wave thermostat (TZ40) from a
> company called RCS, which also makes an optional remote pool/spa
> temperature sensor (RSP2).
>
> My thought is that I would install the TZ40 and RSP2 very close to
> my pool pump/plumbing. Then I would set up a computer with home
> automation software and a z-wave receiver elsewhere in thse house
> (probably Homeseer with the Maestro Heat & Air Plug-in.
>
> I got a technical service reply from RCS, however, saying that the
> RSP2 is discontinued and RCS no longer offers any type of pool/spa
> control. Also RCS suggets that "this may not be too practical a
> use for z-wave topology since it's a mesh network type of RF
> transmission and requires retransmitters out to the pool pad area."

RCS is correct. If you do not plan to use other Z-Wave components
such as light switches or dimmers and the pool sensor is to be
mounted far from your master controls, Z-Wave is probably not the
best choice. The advantage of a mesh network like Z-Wave is that
each dimmer or other module acts as a repeater. This allows low
power RF devices to effectively cover a very large area. As RCS has
rightly pointed out, mesh networks don't offer any benefit if all you
need is one or two points of control.

> Are there other manufacturers who make a z-wave thermostat with a
> pool water sensor? Is it true that z-wave is not a practical use
> for this application? If so, what other design would be better?

I'm not sure. I'll check with some of our manufacturers and get back
to you. If you plan to use Z-Wave for lights and other things in the
home or at least in the pool area, that may still be worth
investigating. If not, you should consider other protocols. The
simplest approach might be to just run a wire. Is this still
possible or has the building been closed up already?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

Robert L Bass

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:17:25 AM9/24/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
> I am researching options to control a pool heating system as part
> of a home automation system.
>
> The Homeseer website lists a Z-wave thermostat (TZ40) from a
> company called RCS, which also makes an optional remote pool/spa
> temperature sensor (RSP2).
>
> My thought is that I would install the TZ40 and RSP2 very close to
> my pool pump/plumbing. Then I would set up a computer with home
> automation software and a z-wave receiver elsewhere in the house
> (probably Homeseer with the Maestro Heat & Air Plug-in.
>
> I got a technical service reply from RCS, however, saying that the
> RSP2 is discontinued and RCS no longer offers any type of pool/spa
> control. Also RCS suggests that "this may not be too practical a
> use for z-wave topology since it's a mesh network type of RF
> transmission and requires retransmitters out to the pool pad area."

RCS is correct. If you do not plan to use other Z-Wave components

such as light switches or dimmers and the pool sensor is to be
mounted far from your master controls, Z-Wave is probably not the
best choice. The advantage of a mesh network like Z-Wave is that
each dimmer or other module acts as a repeater. This allows low
power RF devices to effectively cover a very large area. As RCS has
rightly pointed out, mesh networks don't offer any benefit if all you
need is one or two points of control.

> Are there other manufacturers who make a z-wave thermostat with a

> pool water sensor? Is it true that z-wave is not a practical use
> for this application? If so, what other design would be better?

I'm not sure. I'll check with some of our manufacturers and get back

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:27:42 AM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 11:06:57 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> be worth investigating. If not, you should consider other protocols.
> The simplest approach might be to just run a wire. Is this still
> possible or has the building been closed up already?

Running a wire from the thermostat to the pool is no problem - in fact
that is what I planned to do as I understand the remote probe is
hard-wired.

My reason for z-wave is to be able to then have my computer control the
thermostat on my computer network such as with the HomeSeer Air and
Heat plug-in. Is z-wave not reliable for that purpose? How would I do
this with a wire instead?

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:27:58 AM9/24/07
to

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:29:34 AM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 11:17:25 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> If not, you should consider other protocols.

Such as?

I like the idea that I can connect a thermostat to my computer without
having to deal with the major installation effort of a fixed box such
as one of the Intermatic controls systems or the ELK-M1G which I think
is overkill for me. I thought the idea of a z-wave thermostat plus
HomeSeer software seems quite simple to implement. Other ideas?

Dave Houston

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:41:08 AM9/24/07
to
Richard Kaplan <rka...@flyimc.com> wrote:

>What "official" or dedicated pool automation system which doesn't use
>z-wave can be operated via the Internet?

http://www.innovativepools.com/Results.tpl?rnd=7882&cart=1BF45B15-92E8-466F-A455-3BBCA5DFCC85&category=39&startat=1

Robert L Bass

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Sep 24, 2007, 11:57:52 AM9/24/07
to
"Robert L Bass" wrote:

>
> "Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>>
>> Are there other manufacturers who make a z-wave thermostat with a
>> pool water sensor? Is it true that z-wave is not a practical use
>> for this application? If so, what other design would be better?
>
> I'm not sure. I'll check with some of our manufacturers and get
> back to you. If you plan to use Z-Wave for lights and other things
> in the home or at least in the pool area, that may still be worth
> investigating. If not, you should consider other protocols. The
> simplest approach might be to just run a wire. Is this still
> possible or has the building been closed up already?

Followup: I checked with ELK Products and they were not aware of an
alternative Z-Wave compatible temperature sensor for use in the
swimming pool. However, as mentioned below, there are hard-wired
probes which will do the job quite well. ELK Products makes a
ELK-M1ZTSR temperature sensor and remote probe kit. There are other
manufacturers producing similar products. Since I sell ELK Products
I'll use this one in my own application.

There's a brief thread on the ELK web forum where one user describes
how he monitors and controls his swimming pool system using the
ELK-M1G controller. You may find it interesting, regardless what
controller you decide to use. If you want to read it, call my office
and I'll get you a user name and password from the manufacturers.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 12:33:48 PM9/24/07
to

That
>
looks very interesting - thanks. I will look at that in detail.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 12:35:25 PM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 11:57:52 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> There's a brief thread on the ELK web forum where one user describes
> how he monitors and controls his swimming pool system using the ELK-M1G
> controller. You may find it interesting, regardless what controller
> you decide to use. If you want to read it, call my office and I'll get
> you a user name and password from the manufacturers.

Does this require operating a computer full-time for the pool heating
system to operate?

If yes then I think that's a risk - maybe not in Florida but definitely
in Pennsylvania for a year-round pool.

If it can work independent of a computer then yes, I'd be interested.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 1:38:03 PM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 12:33:48 -0400, Richard Kaplan <rka...@flyimc.com> said:

>>
> looks very interesting - thanks. I will look at that in detail.

OK some follow-up:

(1) It looks to me as if this system has a hardwired probe and then an
X-10 connection to other devices. Why is that more reliable than
x-wave?

(2) The manual is very lmited in terms of web capabilities - maybe this
is very new?

(3) The company's website prominently invites customers to click and
see a demo of their web interface. But the link is broken. Not very
impressive.

Has anyone had experience with this company?

Dave Houston

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Sep 24, 2007, 2:03:40 PM9/24/07
to
I'm not acquainted with the details and, since I have no direct interest,
will not spend time doing your homework.

I did not look at the details but it looks to me like it uses UPB rather
than X10. UPB costs more but most reports here are that it is more reliable
than X10.

I have, in the past, exchanged email with them and can attest that they are
quite knowledgeable and always looking to improve reliability.

I couldn't connect either but that may be due to internet or ISP problems.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 2:09:56 PM9/24/07
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On Sep 24, 2:03 pm, nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:

> I did not look at the details but it looks to me like it uses UPB rather
> than X10. UPB costs more but most reports here are that it is more reliable
> than X10.

I just called them... Their demo is down today. As for their
hardware, it is all in a
transition from X10 to UPB. They don't recommend anyone buy their
system today
for purposes of connecting to the Internet "but it will be available
soon."

In other words... it looks like terrific vaporware... oh well.

Dave Houston

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Sep 24, 2007, 3:04:00 PM9/24/07
to
Richard Kaplan <richard...@gmail.com> wrote:

They've been around awhile and, AFAIK, have a good track record so it may be
available faster than you think. If their system can work without the web
connection and can offer the control you need, it may be worthwhile to go
with them anyway and add the web connection once available. It does look
like it runs without the need of a PC while some of the other things you've
investigated need a PC. You've already seen that they are honest and upfront
about the system. You may not get that elsewhere.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 4:02:58 PM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 15:04:00 -0400, nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) said:


> They've been around awhile and, AFAIK, have a good track record so it may be
> available faster than you think. If their system can work without the web
> connection and can offer the control you need, it may be worthwhile to go
> with them anyway and add the web connection once available. It does look
> like it runs without the need of a PC while some of the other things you've
> investigated need a PC. You've already seen that they are honest and upfront
> about the system. You may not get that elsewhere.

I've been around the block way too long to buy an incomplete product.

Besides - controlling pool temperature remotely (i.e. by web) is a
fundamental point of my project.

In any event, I think I found another option to consider. Does anyone
have any experience with HAI? They offer a professional-level pool
control system and Homeseer has a Plug-in which can interface with
their thermostats (thus resulting in web access). Here is their info:

http://www.homeauto.com/Products/HAISystems/homecontrolsystems.asp

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 24, 2007, 6:16:22 PM9/24/07
to
On 2007-09-24 11:57:52 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> "Robert L Bass" wrote:

> Followup: I checked with ELK Products and they were not aware of an
> alternative Z-Wave compatible temperature sensor for use in the
> swimming pool.

Are you familiar with the HAI Omnistat series? I did some searching
today and it appears they have new models RC-90BZ and RC-100BZ
thermostats which are part of their "Omnistat-Z" series with Z-wave
transceivers.

Would these work?

Frank Olson

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Sep 25, 2007, 1:33:16 AM9/25/07
to
Robert L Bass wrote:

> There's a brief thread on the ELK web forum where one user describes how
> he monitors and controls his swimming pool system using the ELK-M1G
> controller. You may find it interesting, regardless what controller you
> decide to use. If you want to read it, call my office and I'll get you
> a user name and password from the manufacturers.
>

Why not just steal and post it like you do everything else??

Robert L Bass

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Sep 25, 2007, 10:28:24 PM9/25/07
to
> Does this require operating a computer full-time for the pool
> heating system to operate?

No. You program and test the ELK system with a PC. Once it's up and
running you can disconnect the PC. The M1G runs as a stand-alone
unit. It can be part of a PC-centric system if desired but that's
not necessary to keep things humming.

> If yes then I think that's a risk - maybe not in Florida but
> definitely in Pennsylvania for a year-round pool.
>
> If it can work independent of a computer then yes, I'd be
> interested.

Contact me off the group if you like.

Robert L Bass

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Sep 25, 2007, 10:43:47 PM9/25/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" <rka...@flyimc.com> wrote in message
news:46f82b38$0$26400$8826...@free.teranews.com...

>>
>> Followup: I checked with ELK Products and they were not aware of
>> an alternative Z-Wave compatible temperature sensor for use in the
>> swimming pool.
>
> Are you familiar with the HAI Omnistat series? I did some
> searching today and it appears they have new models RC-90BZ and
> RC-100BZ thermostats which are part of their "Omnistat-Z" series
> with Z-wave transceivers.

Several of my customers use Omnistat thermostats. They are
compatible with ELK's M1G system.
> Would these work?

For operating your HVAC equipment, yes. I don't know if their water
probe interfaces to the Omnistat or directly to the controller. From
what I've read so far, it's a separate unit.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 25, 2007, 10:47:23 PM9/25/07
to
On 2007-09-25 22:43:47 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

>>
>
> For operating your HVAC equipment, yes. I don't know if their water
> probe interfaces to the Omnistat or directly to the controller. From
> what I've read so far, it's a separate unit.

Well in any event it turns out that the Z-series is vaporware for now -
it is in the catalog but not yet available.

So it looks as if there is no Z-wave thermostat at all on the market
currently? How can that be?

Robert L Bass

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Sep 25, 2007, 11:25:43 PM9/25/07
to
> I've been around the block way too long to buy an incomplete
> product.
>
> Besides - controlling pool temperature remotely (i.e. by web) is a
> fundamental point of my project.
>
> In any event, I think I found another option to consider. Does
> anyone have any experience with HAI? They offer a
> professional-level pool control system and Homeseer has a Plug-in
> which can interface with their thermostats (thus resulting in web
> access). Here is their info:
>
> http://www.homeauto.com/Products/HAISystems/homecontrolsystems.asp

HomeSeer has been around for quite a while and they have plug-ins for
numerous subsystems. When Rich was first developing the software I
supplied the test hardware (a Napco P9600 system with HA interface).
One issue you might have with this approach is that it requires the
PC to be running to integrate your systems as well as to allow remote
access. The ELK system does not require a dedicated PC. I prefer a
design that does not hinge entirely upon a central PC. YMMV of
course.

Richard Kaplan

unread,
Sep 26, 2007, 12:19:34 AM9/26/07
to
On 2007-09-25 23:25:43 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> HomeSeer has been around for quite a while and they have plug-ins for
> numerous subsystems. When Rich was first developing the software I
> supplied the test hardware (a Napco P9600 system with HA interface).
> One issue you might have with this approach is that it requires the PC
> to be running to integrate your systems as well as to allow remote
> access. The ELK system does not require a dedicated PC. I prefer a
> design that does not hinge entirely upon a central PC. YMMV of course.

The most critical function for me is operating the pool heat 24/7 in
the winter.

With the HomeSeer system, a PC is needed for remote access, but if I
use z-wave thermostats then the pool heat will continue working even if
the PC is down. Any other functions I add such as lighting are
inconsequential and if they stop when the PC is down that does not
matter.

I am intrigued though by your comment about the ELK system not
requiring a dedicated PC. Are you saying the rules are located in a
microprocessor in the ELK-M1G and therefore will still function with
the PC inoperative?

Richard Kaplan

unread,
Sep 26, 2007, 12:29:59 AM9/26/07
to
On 2007-09-25 23:25:43 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> I prefer a design that does not hinge entirely upon a central PC.
> YMMV of course.

Could you elaborate further? I am uncertain why I would want a system
which has the complexity of a hardware panel like the M1G. The M1G
requires a hardware panel, a PC, and hardware sensors. Homeseer
eliminates the hardware panel and works with just a PC and hardware
sensors. I am not sure what I lose by avoiding a hardware panel.

Robert L Bass

unread,
Sep 26, 2007, 7:23:02 AM9/26/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
>> HomeSeer has been around for quite a while and they have plug-ins
>> for numerous subsystems. When Rich was first developing the
>> software I supplied the test hardware (a Napco P9600 system with
>> HA interface). One issue you might have with this approach is that
>> it requires the PC to be running to integrate your systems as well
>> as to allow remote access. The ELK system does not require a
>> dedicated PC. I prefer a design that does not hinge entirely upon
>> a central PC. YMMV of course.
>
> The most critical function for me is operating the pool heat 24/7
> in the winter.
>
> With the HomeSeer system, a PC is needed for remote access, but if
> I use z-wave thermostats then the pool heat will continue working
> even if the PC is down. Any other functions I add such as lighting
> are inconsequential and if they stop when the PC is down that does
> not matter.

The issue here is that Z-wave doesn't travel great distances. If the
distance from the thermostat (or any other device) to the controller
exceeds ~30 feet, it won't work. Thus, if you were already planning
to automate lighting, etc., Z-Wave might have been your best choice.
Since lighting control is not important to you, Z-Wave is not the
best protocol.

> I am intrigued though by your comment about the ELK system not
> requiring a dedicated PC. Are you saying the rules are located in
> a microprocessor in the ELK-M1G and therefore will still function
> with the PC inoperative?

Yes, precisely. Bear in mind that ELK is synonymous with Z-Wave.
The system can work with Z-Wave, USB, X10, etc. Their M1XSP (up to
eight RS232 units) can also be used to communicate with a number of
proprietary lighting and HVAC devices. For your swimming pool
application, the optimum choice will be a stand-alone, programmable
controller with the ELK piggy-backed to monitor and operate it.
That's actually not difficult to do.

Robert L Bass

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Sep 26, 2007, 8:44:35 AM9/26/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
>> I prefer a design that does not hinge entirely upon a central PC.
>> YMMV of course.
>
> Could you elaborate further? I am uncertain why I would want a
> system which has the complexity of a hardware panel like the M1G.
> The M1G requires a hardware panel, a PC, and hardware sensors.
> Homeseer eliminates the hardware panel and works with just a PC and
> hardware sensors. I am not sure what I lose by avoiding a hardware
> panel.

A stand-alone panel like the M1G or Omni does not require a PC to
operate your systems. You only use a PC to configure it. The
sensors are a constant since you need some form of sensor no matter
what controls you use. The purpose of the M1G in this application is
to tie everything together and to provide online access to monitor
and control via the Internet.

Dave Houston

unread,
Sep 26, 2007, 10:03:39 AM9/26/07
to
Richard Kaplan <rka...@flyimc.com> wrote:

>So it looks as if there is no Z-wave thermostat at all on the market
>currently? How can that be?

It might be that the firms who made them want to avoid patent suits. I have
not read the details of the patents involved so this might be a stretch but
the description of one about "a transceiver sharing the same junction box
with a switch" might apply to the Z-Wave thermostats which are essentially
nothing more than transceivers and switches.

http://www.cepro.com/article/lutron_sues_leviton_over_rf_lighting_controls/

Have you asked RCS or ACT (HomePro) why they discontinued theirs?

Dan Lanciani

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Sep 26, 2007, 4:33:18 PM9/26/07
to
In article <qirKi.2279$6K4.1480@trnddc06>, Rober...@verizon.net (Robert L Bass) writes:

| Yes, precisely. Bear in mind that ELK is synonymous with Z-Wave.

I'm sure you meant to say "isn't synonymous" here. I realize it
is clear from the context as long as you know the other keywords
but since a new user is involved I thought I should point it out. :)

| The system can work with Z-Wave, USB, X10, etc. Their M1XSP (up to
| eight RS232 units) can also be used to communicate with a number of
| proprietary lighting and HVAC devices.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

Robert L Bass

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Sep 26, 2007, 6:21:17 PM9/26/07
to
"Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
news:134...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...

>
> | Yes, precisely. Bear in mind that ELK is synonymous with Z-Wave.
>
> I'm sure you meant to say "isn't synonymous" here.

Yes, I did. Brain fart. Sorry.

> I realize it is clear from the context as long as you know the
> other keywords but since a new user is involved I thought I should
> point it out. :)

Thank you.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 26, 2007, 7:02:45 PM9/26/07
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On 2007-09-26 07:23:02 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:


> The issue here is that Z-wave doesn't travel great distances. If the
> distance from the thermostat (or any other device) to the controller
> exceeds ~30 feet, it won't work. Thus, if you were already planning to
> automate lighting, etc., Z-Wave might have been your best choice. Since
> lighting control is not important to you, Z-Wave is not the best
> protocol.

All I need to do is plug in a few lighting control devices and the
distance issue is resolved, right? No problem at all.

> Yes, precisely. Bear in mind that ELK is synonymous with Z-Wave. The
> system can work with Z-Wave, USB, X10, etc. Their M1XSP (up to eight
> RS232 units) can also be used to communicate with a number of
> proprietary lighting and HVAC devices. For your swimming pool
> application, the optimum choice will be a stand-alone, programmable
> controller with the ELK piggy-backed to monitor and operate it. That's
> actually not difficult to do.

OK I must be missing something really basic - why bother with the
hardware controller like the M1G at all? What not stick with just a
computer and a bunch of devices?

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 26, 2007, 7:05:12 PM9/26/07
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On 2007-09-26 08:44:35 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> A stand-alone panel like the M1G or Omni does not require a PC to
> operate your systems. You only use a PC to configure it. The sensors
> are a constant since you need some form of sensor no matter what
> controls you use. The purpose of the M1G in this application is to tie
> everything together and to provide online access to monitor and control
> via the Internet.

So if I write a bunch of complex rules with an ELK-M1G the rules are
stored on the M1G? It functions as a computer with onboard memory?

Frank Olson

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Sep 26, 2007, 9:13:18 PM9/26/07
to


Correct. The M1G is by far the best automation controller on the market
(and it's a powerful security system as well). It's pricey, but well
worth it.

Robert L Bass

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Sep 27, 2007, 1:57:42 AM9/27/07
to

"Richard Kaplan" <rka...@flyimc.com> wrote in message
news:46fad916$0$26387$8826...@free.teranews.com...

You can do it either way. The hardware controller will usually be
more reliable though and it costs less than a dedicated PC. It's
also more powerful in most cases.

Robert L Bass

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Sep 27, 2007, 1:59:09 AM9/27/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
> So if I write a bunch of complex rules with an ELK-M1G the rules
> are stored on the M1G? It functions as a computer with onboard
> memory?

Yep. It's like a dedicated computer with specialized I/O geared to
do this sort of stuff.

Richard Kaplan

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Sep 27, 2007, 2:24:58 AM9/27/07
to
On 2007-09-27 01:59:09 -0400, "Robert L Bass" <Rober...@verizon.net> said:

> "Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>>
>> So if I write a bunch of complex rules with an ELK-M1G the rules are
>> stored on the M1G? It functions as a computer with onboard memory?
>
> Yep. It's like a dedicated computer with specialized I/O geared to do
> this sort of stuff.

OK got it - thanks. I will first get it running with the PC as a proof
of concept test and then look into the controller.

Robert L Bass

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Sep 27, 2007, 5:27:43 PM9/27/07
to
"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
>
>> Yep. It's like a dedicated computer with specialized I/O geared
>> to do this sort of stuff.
>
> OK got it - thanks. I will first get it running with the PC as a
> proof of concept test and then look into the controller.

Sure thing. If I can be of any help along the way, feel free to call
or post.

Richard Kaplan

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Nov 4, 2007, 10:47:26 AM11/4/07
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On Sep 23, 7:09 pm, Richard Kaplan <rkap...@flyimc.com> wrote:

> I am researching options to control a pool heating system as part of a
> home automation system.

Just some follow-up for those who are interested..and a thanks to all
those who offered help while I was researching this.

I have completed the home automation system installation and it has
been working well for a couple of weeks now.

I was able to locate two remote water sensors for the RCS TZ40 Z-wave
thermostat. I connnected one of these thermostats to my pool heat
pump and another to the pool gas heater. I also connected two more
TZ40 thermostats inside my house for my heating and air conditioning
systems. For the pool I also set up Z-wave switches for my main pool
pump, a recirculator pump to heat my pool dome, and assorted lights
working on motion detection. And I set up a number of lights inside
my house with Z-wave switches as well to increase coverage of the Z-
wave network.

For temperature sensing I installed an RFXCOM receiver which reads air
and water temperature at various locations using Oregon Scientific
probes.

I also re-plumbed my pool heat sources so the heat pump and gas heater
run in series and thus I can operate either or both without switching
any valves.

I installed HomeSeer software to operate all of the above, and I am
tweaking the control logic to determine the most efficient way to
manage the various heat sources - in particular this setup lets me
choose between the heat pump and gas heater in a manner which is
energy-efficient depending on the outside temperature. Also the
control logic can turn on the pump in freezing temperatures to avoid
frozen pipes. I can control all of this in an automated fashion via
HomeSeer events or I can monitor and control the system remotely via
an Internet link to my PC which runs HomeSeer.

So far so good... it seems like a very nice solution to the problem of
pool automation with dual heat sources.

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