dynalite or Clipsal CBUS for lighting?
Geoff Lamb
I am about to renovate our house and I want to automate the lights. I don't realy
want to use X-10 because of the problems so I want to go with a hard wired solution.
I am down to Dynalite and Clipsal CBus (I am in Australia.) Has anyone had
experiences with either? Any pros/cons? Can CBus only be programmed by someone
qualified? Are they about the same price?
Thanks in advance
Geoff
=============
Geoff...@ml.com
rlg
"Geoff Lamb" <Geoff...@ml.com> wrote in message
news:d7f2383a.02082...@posting.google.com...
I haven't used any of the new CBus gear, but the Dynalite has been very
robust in my installations.
Rod
> =============
> Geoff...@ml.com
MAGIC
worth checking out.
--
Regards,
MAGIC
Do not Meddle in the Affairs of Dragons, for you are Crunchy & good with
Ketchup
"rlg" <rodlou...@antispammedinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:3d6b35a9$1...@duster.adelaide.on.net...
rlg
"MAGIC" <ma...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:aDGa9.14723$MC2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> HPM also have anew automated light system which does more than C-Bus.
Prolly
> worth checking out.
The web site is interesting www.hpmtech.com.au. Don't know whether it does
more than CBus, but looks good. As with anything like this, it will be
interesting to see whether it is all working right now, as both CBus and
Dynalite have had years to get the programming right.
I am not sure about the limited range of dimming solutions - single, twin
and four channel boxes from what I can see on the web site. Dynalite has 12
x 2A in one box, and a range of higher rated dimmers in the one box.
Different design philosophy I suppose, but the one box only requires a
single supply, with centrally distributed power. I am not sure of the
philispophy of having lots of smaller boxes, each with it's own supply feed.
Anyone out there used it?
Anyone know the pricing?
Rod
Dennis
Geoff,
C-BUS can only be programmed by someone qualified, which makes it a
pain in the bum if you want to modify your switching later on, have
you heard of a Product called TEBIS sold by "Hager B&R" of Australia,
it is a simple to use and simple to change any setting, you don't need
a professional. Go and see you local Electrical Wholesaler, Ideal
Electrical etc and ask them about it.
Dennis
Miro
"MAGIC" <ma...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:aDGa9.14723$MC2....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Prolly
> worth checking out.
>
Oh Please .........
Miro
> Geoff,
> C-BUS can only be programmed by someone qualified,
Crap. C-Bus 2 can be done without a computer.
I have trained all my clients / home owners in C-Bus and it takes little or
no effort to master. Not to mention the Clipsal advice line for little
tricks and tips.
If someone wants to know about C-Bus they should consult someone that
actually uses it or lives with it. I dont like Dynalite because it can be
affected by RF noise from motors and go nuts. I have heard of several Dyna
setups that went ape after a big fridge motor kicked in. The noise from the
motor was enough to fool Dynalite into thinking it was a command in the
system. So now they revised the spec to run on Belden Shiedled RS-485 cable
that costs a mint.
C-Bus is professional, small, low cost and effective in installations where
the owner wishes to have total control over wiring, setup and expansion.
Since it is local product it will develop more modules to deal with Hi-fi
and general IR control, not just lighting. When you marry C-Bus to a
professional grade alarm panel (eg. Challenger) you get the smoothest and
neatest results.
For your benefit there is a list of installers in a link relating to C-Bus
on the clipsal website.
http://www.clipsal.com/cis/cis_ins_dir.php3
I have an old piece of C-Bus that I scored as part of my old training kit,
it says "Sydney Opera House" on it, so I guess its also useful for bigger
sites.
The greater challenge is also the cable planning, as only about 0.5% of
electricians know how to perform a C-Bus ready wiring job. Most cant seem to
help themselves but try to run 240V to the light switch. As you know, C-Bus
runs on Cat-5 cable at the switches. So even if you do source the gear
yourself, you will still need someone to plan it for you.
Miro
Paul
Geoff,
I built my house in July-Nov1998 with Clipsal CBUS, I did most of the
integration with a long time friend (electrician and CBUS installer).
However, I quickly mastered all the CBUS configuation and now do all my own
changes. My Cbus network consist of 12 four way gang plates, 8 two way gang
plates, 3 single gang plates, 8 x 4 channel 750W dimmers (yes thats 32
channels), 4 * four channel relay units, two IR movement sensors and three
power supplies. I have added along the way with a scene controller that sets
four moods in the home; movies, entertain, dinner party, all-off.
I am now five years down the track I am still very happy. I am programming a
Minder controller at the moment (but keeping it seperated from the security
system, #$%# contents insurance!).
A couple of things, Clipsal are constantly evolving the product, with
additions such as CBUS2 prodcuts, the touch screen, cbus power supplies now
built into the dimmer and relay modules, ethernet interfaces, and the list
goes on.
My advice, is to find an integrator you can work with. I originally had
trouble sourcing my Minder controller until I found an installer willing to
work with me. Quite rightly most installers want keep the IP rights to thier
Minder code, I just wanted to write my own and experiment.
WHAT THE
From someone who has worked extensively with all of the systems discussed,
there are quite a few issues to look at.
1. C-Bus 2 (learn mode) is easy to program but is extremely light on in the
functionality stakes. We always disable this function as it causes
problems.
2. C-Bus works well with a number of decent control systems like HomeMinder
and Crestron (if you have the bucks).
3. C-Bus on it's own doesn't offer a whole lot of functionality for the home
without a control system to back it up.
Depending on what state you are in, you should be able to find an integrator
to help you (there are good and there are cowboys).
The HomeMinder has the X-10 interface on board so you can still have a
hybrid of the two systems if you choose (C-Bus + X-10)
HPM's I-Control is the new kid on the block. It does have more
functionality than C-Bus alone but falls a little short of C-Bus and
HomeMinder together. It too can be coupled with Crestron for a more complex
system.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Geoff Lamb wrote in message ...
WHAT THE
I actually think it has valves
bad idea
Dennis wrote in message <126f95cb.0208...@posting.google.com>...
Miro
"'WHAT THE'" <che...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HMFb9.18849$g9.5...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Hagar's system is 15 years old
> I actually think it has valves
>
> bad idea
Mechanical or vacuum valves ?
ROFL
Miro
> 3. C-Bus on it's own doesn't offer a whole lot of functionality for the
home
> without a control system to back it up.
>
?
Are you suggesting that one needs lutron, AMX or crestron in order to run
C-Bus ? That has little or nothing to do with lighting. If you get the
lighting right you need not be bothered on the brand of the control gear for
the rest of the house, even though C-Bus will do 99% of it.
> HPM's I-Control is the new kid on the block. It does have more
> functionality than C-Bus alone but falls a little short of C-Bus and
> HomeMinder together. It too can be coupled with Crestron for a more
complex
> system.
>
I think you are confusing branding with function. Any home system can
perform any function. It may require a preset level of information in order
to integrate well, but if someone puts a wide selection onto the market with
the same badge, it does not mean that it does more.
As far as I can tell, there are only 3 possible outcomes in any system, ON,
OFF, DIMMED. So I feel anything can do that.
Mick
From a document I downloaded from their web site, they were adding IR control of
not only the lights but of hifi gear by using an emitter.
This would negate the need for another wiring system in the house, as you could
use the lighting system for all you IR control.
He software to program C-Bus is now available on the net for free (not long
after I paid for it mind you) and it is fairly basic to program the system.
Buying the manuals would be of a real benefit to understand some off the finer
details. Some things are not all that obvious like turning a whole area off,
you "rampof" instead of "off".
Integrating the system with a controller is easy of the controller is made for
it, such as the home minder. If you want greater control and have the money you
can use citect as gerard Ind. have written a driver for it. You could then
theoretically use and controller, but citect is in excess of $5000 (from what I
have been told - I want to integrate my GE Fanuc's with a screen and the C-bus
system using citect).
Homegate is supposed to be released later this year and it will provide a gui
(HMI) to the lighting system and hopefully to the internet so you can
control/monitor from remote location.
I think the fact that the system has been used in large installations such as
stadium Australia and the Opera House as someone mentioned should indicate that
the system will be here for the long haul.
Either way, what ever system you use it would be a real shame to use a last
century system in this century. I don't agree with building a house for last
year/decade.
Jeremy
"Mick" <st...@work.com> wrote in message news:3D6F66ED...@work.com...
> The evolution of the product was one of the reasons I chose to use C-Bus.
>
> From a document I downloaded from their web site, they were adding IR
control of
> not only the lights but of hifi gear by using an emitter.
>
> This would negate the need for another wiring system in the house, as you
could
> use the lighting system for all you IR control.
>
> He software to program C-Bus is now available on the net for free (not
long
> after I paid for it mind you) and it is fairly basic to program the
system.
> Buying the manuals would be of a real benefit to understand some off the
finer
> details. Some things are not all that obvious like turning a whole area
off,
> you "rampof" instead of "off".
Mick,
If you don't mind me asking, what sort of dollars does a typical home c-bus
installation equate to. Perhaps you could indicate how elaborate your system
is and what that represents dollar wise (for the components only).
Thanks,
Jeremy.
Miro
> If you don't mind me asking, what sort of dollars does a typical home
c-bus
> installation equate to. Perhaps you could indicate how elaborate your
system
> is and what that represents dollar wise (for the components only).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeremy.
>
A rough guide is $100 a point. What classes as a point is the following
i) Light switch
ii) A bunch of lights wired as one group (limit 240W)
iii) Relay events (sprinklers, garage door, front door.....)
iv) C-Bus PIR
A room in a house with 1 light bulb or group is $200.
Touch screens are more and Minder is extra.
Labour is low because it is a star topology (same way to wire as Cat-5
network), for electrical wires (all back to one point on each level). Wall
switch uses Cat-5 and is daisy-chain and/or star topology.
Jeremy
" Miro" <mir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d6ff62d$0$29909$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> A rough guide is $100 a point. What classes as a point is the following
>
> i) Light switch
> ii) A bunch of lights wired as one group (limit 240W)
> iii) Relay events (sprinklers, garage door, front door.....)
> iv) C-Bus PIR
>
> A room in a house with 1 light bulb or group is $200.
>
> Touch screens are more and Minder is extra.
>
> Labour is low because it is a star topology (same way to wire as Cat-5
> network), for electrical wires (all back to one point on each level). Wall
> switch uses Cat-5 and is daisy-chain and/or star topology.
>
Miro, thanks for that. I might have a look at a catalogue. Is there a
comprehensive one on line or do I need to contact Clipsal?
Thanks again,
Jeremy.
Mick
All the brochures are on line. You can also ring them and the will send them
out to you
Mick
Mick
long as you have an electrical connection you are right to go.
It is however a star (homerun) topology for the 240v lines.
At my prices a 12 ch relay is ~$850, light switches are ~$55. I think that the
$100 a point may be a little low if you are talking lights.
I have just done my shed in C-Bus, 12 ch relay, outdoor PIR, temp sensor 8 ch
dimmer (got it a good price but I am not using it yet) and 7 or 8 switches and
cable. Cost me about 2 grand. I wired it myself and programed it myself.
There is a new switch as well. Have a look at http://www.clipsalneo.com
MIck
Miro
"Mick" <st...@work.com> wrote in message news:3D702CAF...@work.com...
> Jeremy
> All the brochures are on line. You can also ring them and the will send
them
> out to you
>
Yeah, get them in print.
Miro
Neo doesnt take my fancy at all.
Miro
"Mick" <st...@work.com> wrote in message news:3D702EC8...@work.com...
> it is not star topology, but a combination of both daisy chain and star.
As
> long as you have an electrical connection you are right to go.
>
> It is however a star (homerun) topology for the 240v lines.
>
I think you are making it too complex. It is one wire, one load. Makes no
difference how you sort out the lights in a room. The main thing that
matters is you dont go from room to room to deliver 240V to different
circuits. All the runs are back to C-Bus.
Mick
WHAT THE
switches, a 'controller' is a good idea!!!
We install about 200 systems a year and only about 10% have C-Bus. Every
C-Bus installation should have at least a Minder (Home Minder...what ever
it's called this week). To get some real time functionality, coupled with
telephone control (not to mention the fact you get a fully operational
security system) and if you have the right software, a high level interface
to keyless entry, RF control and A/C control....then your 'lighting system'
really sings for about 20% more cost.
Clipsal are trying to sell C-Bus as an all up solution but in reality, it
will never do that as it remains a relatively slow (9600 baud) non-secure
bus.
BTW the IR reticulation being touted, is not quite what is going to be.
You need to learn the IR command into a transmitter unit and have a matching
signal (group address for those who knew C-Bus B4 V2 software) trigger it at
the other end. HPM's I-Control has true reticulation already (albeit only
at 38kHz which takes care of most situations)
Miro wrote in message <3d6f2e05$0$29913$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
WHAT THE
Miro wrote in message <3d6f2cb6$0$29907$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
Miro
> I'm suggesting that in order to get something more than some fancy looking
> switches, a 'controller' is a good idea!!!
>
> We install about 200 systems a year and only about 10% have C-Bus. Every
> C-Bus installation should have at least a Minder (Home Minder...what ever
> it's called this week). To get some real time functionality, coupled with
> telephone control (not to mention the fact you get a fully operational
> security system) and if you have the right software, a high level
interface
> to keyless entry, RF control and A/C control....then your 'lighting
system'
> really sings for about 20% more cost.
>
> Clipsal are trying to sell C-Bus as an all up solution but in reality, it
> will never do that as it remains a relatively slow (9600 baud) non-secure
> bus.
>
Doesnt matter how much you do each each year, its what you can do with the
clients brief and budget that matters.
WHAT THE
Miro wrote in message <3d745d63$0$29907$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
Rohan Hamer
I have only just come accross your post and for what it is worth here are my
experiences.
I purchased, installed,programmed and now maintain and upgrade my CBUS
system myself. It was originally installed in1997 and is still the single
best thing that I have done to my home in the home automation arena.
I also have a minder controller in the system, but it was actually installed
a couple of years before the CBUS and was known then as Jeeves. Software
upgrades along the way (performed by me) have now turned it into a Minder
(series 1).
All this was retro fitted to an existing 1950's house, again by me, very
easily (as long as you don't mind a bit of crawling around) the trick is to
use the existing 240v wiring as a draw wire to pull the CBUS CAT5 up the
walls.
The problem that I find is obtaining the parts at a reasonable price,
Clipsal seem to be a little inconsistant in my view, claiming to only
distribute through the authorised dealers and yet I have gone to my local
electrical supplier and ordered over the counter (you need the correct part
numbers though as they have no idea what you are talking about and you pay
top price).
The trick is to find one of the authorised dealers that is prepaerd to deal
with you and then you are set, you can then get all the parts and
documentation you need at a reasonable price.
I am about to start a bit of an upgrade next week which will include the
addition of 2 touch screens and a new Minder (series 2) controller.
So in summary, I have no experience with the dynalite product so no comment
there, however I think that it is entirely possible to plan, install and
maintain your own CBUS network, I've done it and it works great!
Regards
Rohan Hamer
BTW are you the Geoff Lamb that used to work at AWA in Melbourne many years
ago?
Geoff Lamb
>
> I am about to renovate our house and I want to automate the lights. I don't realy
> want to use X-10 because of the problems so I want to go with a hard wired solution.
>
> I am down to Dynalite and Clipsal CBus (I am in Australia.) Has anyone had
> experiences with either? Any pros/cons? Can CBus only be programmed by someone
> qualified? Are they about the same price?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Geoff
> =============
> Geoff...@ml.com
Thanks for all the responses.
I have decided to go with Dynalite. They have a fairly new domestic range that
are about the same price as CBus. They have an dimmer,Lightstyle LSMC801, that
can take 2 plug in modules of any combination of4x1A dimmer, 4x1A relay or
1x5A Dimmer.
http://dynalite-online.com/products/dimming.asp
The Dynalite stuff is all open, I can use the controller I want (not locked into
using Minder.) The switch range is good - they sell a 1 ->5 switch and a
1 ->10 switch, they have the capacity to have 5 or 10 switches in one panel, but
you only use the amount you want and put a different face plate on it to cover
the un-used switches. This allows you to change configurations after you stick
everything in.
The CBus stuff is more in common household use, Dynalite is used in more
industrial applications. The CBus network is more error resistant to electrical
noise than the RS485 protocol that Dynalite uses, but using shielded cable
will remove any noise issues - and gives you an open protocol.
My house will be a 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom, dining room, family room, kitchen and
laundry, about 9m x 20m with master bedrom, robes and ensuite upstairs. I will
probably use:
4x 8@1A dimmers (so 32 dimmed light circuits)
2x 8@10A relay (or 0 volt) (8 other power circuits, 8 volt free devices e.g.
reversable motors, sprinkler systems, etc)
about 12 wall switches
half dozen PIR's
Interfaces to security system
Software to program
For about $AUS6k->$AUS7k ($US3.5k), which is about what CBus came in at.
So not cheap, but it works out to about 2% of the building project.
Geoff Lamb
Miro
> The CBus stuff is more in common household use, Dynalite is used in more
> industrial applications. The CBus network is more error resistant to
electrical
> noise than the RS485 protocol that Dynalite uses, but using shielded cable
> will remove any noise issues - and gives you an open protocol.
>
These generalisations are prone to debate. But there is no need to contest
these suggestions as the two products are worlds apart.
>
> For about $AUS6k->$AUS7k ($US3.5k), which is about what CBus came in at.
>
> So not cheap, but it works out to about 2% of the building project.
>
2% ..... more like 5% when you factor the alarm, audio and IR technology,
air-con controllers and other remote functions. Throw in a sat-dish a few
cameras for security and you have blown that too. Dont forget that a
pre-wire is only partly related to lighting.
If you are totally stretched to get home automation, you might consider the
likelyhood of the homes in the district being upgraded in the next 10 years.
Before you penny-pinch on a system that totally controls your living space,
make sure you can live without it. Or at least make such a clever wire plan
that it can be fitted later, I have done that too with 24V relays and rack
mount power supplies.
Would you for example drive a car without power windows, mobile phone kit
and remote locking. None of these features actually have anything to do with
driving, yet it would be a crap car if it didnt have it, let's not forget
the sun-roof.
Home automation is about growth and protential, the idea that you must have
it all now and pay for it now is meaningless, you need only cable for it, or
at the very least sink a few conduits and have secret junctions behind false
panels. In the last project I spent over $4,000 on ducting and tubing. Did
you factor in the cost of hidden panels and removable cabling.
As much as I can see that you are an intelligent consumer, you have gotten
in at the wrong end, the end that deals in screws, nails, glue and varnish.
What you are shopping for is furniture, not the bits that make it.
Miro
Hyperactive FruitlooP
" Miro" <mir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d7d67ef$0$28867$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Miro
setting a full budget, not just a jigsaw approach.
An average solution for a smart home cost about $20,000 a level including
normal electrical. For a 3 bedroom size footprint.
Deluxe treatment costs about $45,000 a level. That includes a number of
control systems and alarm components and maximum capability of control by
Dynalite or C-Bus.
After years of experience and dozens of fights with builders and architects,
I have yet to get it pear shaped on cost and hidden details. As a rule I
think it pays to know that simple cost of parts are nothing like the final
cost.
"Hyperactive FruitlooP" <cn...@cnut.com> wrote in message
news:Zbkf9.15797$_l1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Geoff Lamb
> >
> > industrial applications. The CBus network is more error resistant to
> electrical
> > noise than the RS485 protocol that Dynalite uses, but using shielded cable
> > will remove any noise issues - and gives you an open protocol.
> >
>
> These generalisations are prone to debate. But there is no need to contest
> these suggestions as the two products are worlds apart.
>
But they both control lighting, they cost about the same, and can be pre-wired
using exaclty the same cables and configuration (if you are careful) where
you could drop in one product instead of the other (and we are talking about
switches controlling lights here - not controllers etc)
> >
> > For about $AUS6k->$AUS7k ($US3.5k), which is about what CBus came in at.
> >
> > So not cheap, but it works out to about 2% of the building project.
> >
>
> 2% ..... more like 5% when you factor the alarm, audio and IR technology,
> air-con controllers and other remote functions. Throw in a sat-dish a few
> cameras for security and you have blown that too. Dont forget that a
> pre-wire is only partly related to lighting.
>
Yes, but I was only asking/talking about the lights only.
> If you are totally stretched to get home automation, you might consider the
> likelyhood of the homes in the district being upgraded in the next 10 years.
> Before you penny-pinch on a system that totally controls your living space,
> make sure you can live without it. Or at least make such a clever wire plan
> that it can be fitted later, I have done that too with 24V relays and rack
> mount power supplies.
>
I think you mis-interpreted my comments. I was pointing out that the lights
are not cheap compared to standard lighting or X-10.
> Would you for example drive a car without power windows, mobile phone kit
> and remote locking. None of these features actually have anything to do with
> driving, yet it would be a crap car if it didnt have it, let's not forget
> the sun-roof.
>
Again yes, but I was only talking about the lights. I know (or are reasonably
confident) what I am doing with cabling, alarm, IR, etc. I was giving costs
as an indication to the groups as to what the lighting component (and without
the labour costs of installing) will cost.
> Home automation is about growth and protential, the idea that you must have
> it all now and pay for it now is meaningless, you need only cable for it, or
> at the very least sink a few conduits and have secret junctions behind false
> panels. In the last project I spent over $4,000 on ducting and tubing. Did
> you factor in the cost of hidden panels and removable cabling.
>
Agreed. And yes I have factored those costs in - just not here.
> As much as I can see that you are an intelligent consumer, you have gotten
> in at the wrong end, the end that deals in screws, nails, glue and varnish.
> What you are shopping for is furniture, not the bits that make it.
>
I don't think so. I know I wanted hard-wired lighting to complement the A/V,
wiring, security, controller etc that I have planned. The 2 obvious choices
in Australia are Clipsal and Dynalite, they both wire mains and switches
back to a central controller, the both cost about the same, they both have
the same type of features and options. Clipsal is used much more and is
backed by the large Clipsal corporation and has a better switch network
protocol. Dynalite is much more open and flexible. Being a UNIX guy the
descion I made was based on the open protocols! For a set and forget system
Clipsal is probably the better choice.
Geoff
Miro
A/V,
> wiring, security, controller etc that I have planned. The 2 obvious
choices
> in Australia are Clipsal and Dynalite, they both wire mains and switches
> back to a central controller, the both cost about the same, they both have
> the same type of features and options. Clipsal is used much more and is
> backed by the large Clipsal corporation and has a better switch network
> protocol. Dynalite is much more open and flexible. Being a UNIX guy the
> descion I made was based on the open protocols! For a set and forget
system
> Clipsal is probably the better choice.
Hang on Geoff, C-Bus doesnt have a central controller, it runs on a polled
network (not unlike an old version of TCP/IP). Who told you it needs a
master console of any kind. Minder is a special upgrade product for making
many things happen at once. I know you are not an installer, but someone has
fed you a load of BS.
C-Bus is stand-alone and does not need a controller of any kind. Such
features are special options if they are needed.All of the functions that
Minder performs can be bought as smaller modules, such as scene controllers.
I dont like sales people that carry on with nonsense and I dont approve of
potential clients misinforming others about a product flaw that does not
exist.
M
WHAT THE
see below
Miro wrote in message <3d7ec591$0$28861$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
>> I don't think so. I know I wanted hard-wired lighting to complement the
>A/V,
>> wiring, security, controller etc that I have planned. The 2 obvious
>choices
>> in Australia are Clipsal and Dynalite, they both wire mains and switches
>> back to a central controller, the both cost about the same, they both
have
>> the same type of features and options. Clipsal is used much more and is
>> backed by the large Clipsal corporation and has a better switch network
>> protocol. Dynalite is much more open and flexible. Being a UNIX guy the
>> descion I made was based on the open protocols! For a set and forget
>system
>> Clipsal is probably the better choice.
>
>Hang on Geoff, C-Bus doesnt have a central controller, it runs on a polled
>network (not unlike an old version of TCP/IP). Who told you it needs a
>master console of any kind. Minder is a special upgrade product for making
>many things happen at once. I know you are not an installer, but someone
has
>fed you a load of BS.
>
>C-Bus is stand-alone and does not need a controller of any kind. Such
>features are special options if they are needed.All of the functions that
>Minder performs can be bought as smaller modules, such as scene
controllers.
Yep and the smaller modules end up costing more and don't have the
functionality ie Phone control, RF remote control, IR control
For some reason, Clipsal will push their touchscreen before their Minder
product (selling on functionality). The very functionality they push can
easily be provided by Minder plus you get so much more.
I ask again, why does everyone aviod using Minder?
>M
>
>
>
Miro
> For some reason, Clipsal will push their touchscreen before their Minder
> product (selling on functionality). The very functionality they push can
> easily be provided by Minder plus you get so much more.
>
> I ask again, why does everyone aviod using Minder?
>
> >M
Its not that simple, too many clients these days ask for the right to not
have to pay for software changes to the system. This from people that spend
$24,000 a year on a car lease, $15,000 on a holiday and about something like
that on clothes, living in a 3 million dollar house.
After a year or two, most clients give up trying to be a jack of all trades
and then get an upgraded setup from someone that asks the right questions
and listens to the Mrs. The Mrs is the person that is the victim of
repositioned lighting commands that were done overnight while she was
asleep. She gets up in the morning to find that the kitchen light switch now
opens the garage door.
There may be a hidden virute in all this. Documentation still seems to be
the way to go for me.
Hyperactive FruitlooP
Ive seen them run on 400 percent voltage spikes
" Miro" <mir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d7df60f$0$28864$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Miro
> I programme PLC,s and they are more industrially hardened than cbus is
>
>
> Ive seen them run on 400 percent voltage spikes
C-Bus doesnt run on 400% spikes because a professional installer would
install several 970 series modules, a power filter and a lighting diverter
before it ever got to the C-bus. When I move into a factory I will get you
to weld me a kitchen.
Same applies to the Phillips GU-10 globes. People tell me that they dont
last long. But I seem to notice that my Phillips globes have lasted quite a
while. Maybe the soft start has something to do with that.
Miro.
Geoff Lamb
> > I don't think so. I know I wanted hard-wired lighting to complement the
> A/V,
> > wiring, security, controller etc that I have planned. The 2 obvious
> choices
> > in Australia are Clipsal and Dynalite, they both wire mains and switches
> > back to a central controller, the both cost about the same, they both have
> > the same type of features and options. Clipsal is used much more and is
> > backed by the large Clipsal corporation and has a better switch network
> > protocol. Dynalite is much more open and flexible. Being a UNIX guy the
> > descion I made was based on the open protocols! For a set and forget
> system
> > Clipsal is probably the better choice.
>
> Hang on Geoff, C-Bus doesnt have a central controller, it runs on a polled
> network (not unlike an old version of TCP/IP). Who told you it needs a
> master console of any kind. Minder is a special upgrade product for making
> many things happen at once. I know you are not an installer, but someone has
> fed you a load of BS.
>
For "controller" I meant the actual "dimmer" unit - the thing that the
lighting mains is connected too with the switch network connected to it on
the other side (in the simpilest installation something like an 8 channel
1A Dimmer - a C-Bus L5508D1A, or a Dynalite LSMC801.) Yes, both systems will
work without a central "controller" and work with just one dimmer and
one switch.
"Minder is a special upgrade product for making many things happen at once"???
What was that about BS? I have not mentioned Minder! It might be a fine
home automation product, but I am not going to use it (I will use
HomeVision http://www.csi3.com/homevis2.htm) Again I was only asking/talking
about the lighting.
> C-Bus is stand-alone and does not need a controller of any kind. Such
> features are special options if they are needed.All of the functions that
> Minder performs can be bought as smaller modules, such as scene controllers.
>
Both Dynalite and C-Bus will work "stand alone", but you will only have
fancy lighting, not home automation. This is the main difference (for me
anyway) between the two, with C-Bus you are pretty much stuck Minder (or
maybe Crestron or AMX if you have lots of money) , with Dynalite you can use
pretty much anything that can "talk" RS485.
> I dont like sales people that carry on with nonsense and I dont approve of
> potential clients misinforming others about a product flaw that does not
> exist.
Then why are you reading USENET News? People have been giving un-informed views
and starting flame wars in news groups for about 15 years!
I am not "carrying on with nonesense". You are miss-interpreting what I am
saying, or reading too much(or little?) into what I am saying.
I asked for opinions about the "lighting" products Dynalite and C-Bus, and
gave MY opinion (as someone with a Comp Sci & Electronic Eng degree) about
the 2 products based on what I want to do with them.
Miro, what do YOU think are the pro's and con's of the 2 systems as
lighting systems?
Mick
I don't know if C-Gate is an OPC server or not yet, I am waiting to find out.
For those who are interested, Homegate has been released just recently, so I am waiting for info on that
as well
Mick
Miro
> Both Dynalite and C-Bus will work "stand alone", but you will only have
> fancy lighting, not home automation. This is the main difference (for me
> anyway) between the two, with C-Bus you are pretty much stuck Minder (or
> maybe Crestron or AMX if you have lots of money) , with Dynalite you can
use
> pretty much anything that can "talk" RS485.
A poker machine ?
Miro
> (as someone with a Comp Sci & Electronic Eng degree)
Well I hope that you or your family dont need these qualifications to live
in the house that you will design.
Miro
"Mick" <st...@work.com> wrote in message news:3D807F30...@work.com...
> > Doesn't C-Gate allow C-Bus to talk to "anything".
>
> I don't know if C-Gate is an OPC server or not yet, I am waiting to find
out.
>
> For those who are interested, Homegate has been released just recently, so
I am waiting for info on that
> as well
>
> Mick
I still dont really know how much we all need in that regard. I suggest that
many of the simple benefits of living in an enhanced home are
over-consumption of electricity. Most smart homes are like American
yank-tank cars.
Sure, lights on, lights off ..... what about a home that heats itself by
moving panels around. I look at the focus that many people have and its more
LED's of different colours.
Since I have no tendency to suck up to people, I don't mind putting it on
the line if the whole concept is a bit limited. After all, a professional is
more than just a man-servant, it needs to lead to an outcome that would
otherwise not have been possible.
So if one person has engineered a solution, then it only takes a red pen to
point out what the problems are on the blueprint. That's what trained eyes
do for a living. Sitting around and talking blah about different modules and
comparing brands is laughable...... it leads to absolutely nothing.
After all, why agonise over something that cant even be seen.
Borisi
Miro you seem to have a chip on your shoulder or you have pidgeon
holed everybody that wants to look at home automation into a "have
money and are dumb" or "not worth talking to as they don't have money"
box.
The fact of the matter is that there are many intelligent and
qualified people that get more pleasure out of the tinkering involved
with home automation than they do from actually using the stuff and
you seem to have some issue with that.
I probably sit half way between the tinkerer and end user camp. Like
Geoff I'm a qualified elec. eng. and my pleasure comes from playing
around with this stiff as well as delivering a usable outcome for the
non-techies in the family.
Do I love this to pay hobby so much to pay somebody $40,000 to do this
for me. Not a bloody hope in hell, so in your mind I'm a dickhead that
doesn't know what he is doing and shouldn't even consider HA as I am
not worthy.
I also do a lot of furniture and cabinet making not because I can't
afford to buy the stuff but because I get the satisfaction from doing
a little differently and doing it myself and this is what it is all
about for many of us.
Geoff, I'm looking at the Dynalite stuff now and will be interfacing
it to a Comfort system which will provide me with security, automation
and an interface to Dynalite. It is only around $1500 for core
controller.
Just out of interest my system has or will have:
-Dynalite for lighting control
-Movement and smoke detectors linked to the lighting and doors, eg
intruder comes in lights go on in a programmed fashion. Smoke alarm
goes off, all lights on, all doors unlock etc etc
-IR repeaters and receivers all through the house
-Component/S-video all through the house
-Audio all through the house
-Data and Phone by Cat 5 and Fibre to every room (fibre for future
expansion)
-Controlled by Pronto 6000 with RF extender
-Curtains and drapes control in the home theatre.
Seems to working well so far, but what the hell do I know, I don't
have a fat cheque book. :)
Geoff Lamb
> "Mick" <st...@work.com> wrote in message news:3D807F30...@work.com...
> > > Doesn't C-Gate allow C-Bus to talk to "anything".
> >
> > I don't know if C-Gate is an OPC server or not yet, I am waiting to find
> out.
> >
But C-Gate needs a PC to run on and C-Gate can not manage a C-Bus network
through a C-Bus network bridge, so a PCI is required for every C-Bus network.
So you can get your Home Automation Controller to talk to the PC running C-Gate.
But you are then relying on a PC running Windows to be up 24x7 (Unix bias
comming out).
[Mick]> > For those who are interested, Homegate has been released just recently, so
> I am waiting for info on that
> > as well
> >
> > Mick
>
[Miro]> I still dont really know how much we all need in that regard. I suggest that
> many of the simple benefits of living in an enhanced home are
> over-consumption of electricity. Most smart homes are like American
> yank-tank cars.
>
We don't NEED any of it! But that is not the point of these news groups.
We read them because we are interested in the bells and whistles.
[Miro]> Sure, lights on, lights off ..... what about a home that heats itself by
> moving panels around. I look at the focus that many people have and its more
> LED's of different colours.
>
But that is one of the reasons we read these news groups. We know what we
want things to do - we are asking "is model xyz better than abc?" and we
want people to give their opinions about specific features. Where else can
you do that? We want real life feedback on products from people who have
them in place in their own homes.
[Miro]> So if one person has engineered a solution, then it only takes a red pen to
> point out what the problems are on the blueprint. That's what trained eyes
> do for a living. Sitting around and talking blah about different modules and
> comparing brands is laughable...... it leads to absolutely nothing.
>
> After all, why agonise over something that cant even be seen.
Sure, for 95% of the population that is true - they don't care. But the
people on these news groups read them because they DO care! They want to
know what particular brand to buy AND why you would chose one above
another!
Geoff
Geoff Lamb
Yes! good example.
When someone wins a jackpot you can get the lights in the place
to start flashing on and off, the lights could spotlight the winning
machine and you can send a "jackpot of $x won" to the rolling LED signs.
With an open system you can do this! You can do what YOU want.
Miro
dont have a fixation with specs and figures. Life bias coming out.
I can make lots of systems do the exact same thing. So there is no point in
getting bothered over C-Bus if you dont like it.
Miro
Miro
kitchen ?
There are a lot of things I dont do, even though I am qualified to do them.
That's called an occupation.
M
Boris Ivancic
a bloody hobby. Get a dose of reality and stop being such a pompous stuffed
shirt.
" Miro" <mir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d8189da$0$23168$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Miro
very large. If I didnt give a Sh__ I would be posting your messages and not
mine.
For ever person that feels inclined to get involved there are a dozen or
more that want to excel themselves in talking about not getting involved.
Only because it proves to them that being fastidious and attentive is not
cool.
What would you rather have ....... someone giving you advice that really
minds their work or a pug-nosed someone like you that punts at the last
moment and adds nothing.
"Boris Ivancic" <biva...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3d830b0f$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Boris Ivancic
mean better. 2. Go back and read your stuff, your advice is bagging people
for their choices and is at best condescending and patronising and at worst
rude. So far the only advice you've given is to call people idiots for doing
it themselves and telling them they need to spend heaps of money to do want
they want to do. Please do me and some of the other enthusiasts here a
favour and tell us your business name so we can avoid you, I may be pug
nosed but at least I'm not a patronising wanker hiding behind an alias.
" Miro" <mir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d83499e$0$23168$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Miro
> Now, now, calm down. 1. Open forum, I can post when I want, earlier
doesn't
> mean better. 2. Go back and read your stuff, your advice is bagging people
> for their choices and is at best condescending and patronising and at
worst
> rude. So far the only advice you've given is to call people idiots for
doing
> it themselves and telling them they need to spend heaps of money to do
want
> they want to do. Please do me and some of the other enthusiasts here a
> favour and tell us your business name so we can avoid you, I may be pug
> nosed but at least I'm not a patronising wanker hiding behind an alias.
>
People that spend vast sums of money doing something they do not know how to
do are at best amusing. As for your candour, refreshing, seemingly more
close to a pointless tirade about nothing. Obviously a Seinfeld fan.
If I was blatanty wrong about the issues at hand it may have surfaced by
now. *crickets* Last time I looked, people prefer to work with a simple
approach that leads to results rapidly. We tend to avoid the wastage that
most people expect in large projects simply because we disregard what is
written on the back of brochures. For some reason the cohort around us are
acutally concerned about results.
People who are so easily offended are clearly not inclined to take their own
interests at heart, but prefer to have their hip-pocket nerve massaged and
the green papers painlessly removed. One of the corporate standards here is
aimed at putting facts before emotions. Those persons so obsessed with being
told they are supremely clever, seldom get that advice from us, the final
results are adequate compensation.
Miro
> Now, now, calm down. 1. Open forum, I can post when I want, earlier
doesn't
> mean better. 2. Go back and read your stuff, your advice is bagging people
> for their choices and is at best condescending and patronising and at
worst
> rude. So far the only advice you've given is to call people idiots for
doing
> it themselves and telling them they need to spend heaps of money to do
want
> they want to do. Please do me and some of the other enthusiasts here a
> favour and tell us your business name so we can avoid you, I may be pug
> nosed but at least I'm not a patronising wanker hiding behind an alias.
>
People that spend vast sums of money doing something they do not know how to
do are at best amusing. As for your candour, refreshing, seemingly
closer to a pointless tirade about nothing. Obviously a Seinfeld fan.
If I was blatantly wrong about the issues at hand it may have surfaced by
now. *crickets* Last time I looked, people prefer to work with a simple
approach that leads to results rapidly. We tend to avoid the wastage that
most people expect in large projects simply because we disregard what is
written on the back of brochures. For some reason the cohort around us are
actually concerned about results.
Geoff Lamb
> "Boris Ivancic" <biva...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3d841a6b$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> doing
> > it themselves and telling them they need to spend heaps of money to do
> want
> > they want to do. Please do me and some of the other enthusiasts here a
> > favour and tell us your business name so we can avoid you, I may be pug
> > nosed but at least I'm not a patronising wanker hiding behind an alias.
> >
>
> do are at best amusing.
Like any HOBBY, it will cost lots of money, could probably be done better by an
"expert", and probably take twice as long. And for once I agree with you - I
find playing with home automation amuses me ;-) That is what a hobby is about!
>
> [Miro]If I was blatantly wrong about the issues at hand it may have surfaced by
> now.
What? You need more than the half dozen different people arguing with you to
post before it gets to the surface?
> [Miro]*crickets* Last time I looked, people prefer to work with a simple
> approach that leads to results rapidly. We tend to avoid the wastage that
> most people expect in large projects simply because we disregard what is
> written on the back of brochures. For some reason the cohort around us are
> actually concerned about results.
<flame proof suit>
And THIS is the issue at hand!! People with lots of money, very large houses
and no technical ability or knowledge would prefer to hire someone like you
or your company, and would probably be better for it.
***** BUT THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT READING THESE NEWS GROUPS!!!!!!!******
So can you please leave us hobbiests, geeks, techno-nerds and gear-heads to
have our technical discussion!!
</flame proof suit>
Newsy
Hi Miro,
I have sat back and read this thread with interest.
You are obviously very passionate about your work.
You do appear to have excellent technical capability in this area. However,
your client manners suck bigtime.
It is one thing to be able to get in front of a client and talk to them one
to one about the pro's and con's of a particular system
architecture/capabilities/whatever (I do know about this because I have to
do it all the time). Unfortunately, it is another thing entirely to convince
an anonymous person on a ng of the same thing.
There is always more than one way to "skin a cat", and people make decisions
on what is right to them based upon vastly different parameters than what
may be important to you. This does not mean that they are wrong, it just
means that they have the different perspective.
Rod
>
>
Miro
> Like any HOBBY, it will cost lots of money, could probably be done better
by an
> "expert", and probably take twice as long. And for once I agree with you -
I
> find playing with home automation amuses me ;-) That is what a hobby is
about!
Like any person that is in charge of dozens of "quad-9" machines you
probably wouldnt be satisfied with anythig less than raw code. I dont feel
that super users in the PC world are typical of the DIY home builder.
Any person with technical goggles can read for themselves what they need.
Did I not make that point clear to this forum ?
I take no notice of people that think being arrogant or demanding is a sign
of weakness. In fact, one is more likely to attain results by expecting
clients to follow a path, usually one well travelled. Could care so little
about people that want to taint others with a tar brush, whilst offering no
new information as a balance.
Miro
> I have sat back and read this thread with interest.
> You are obviously very passionate about your work.
> You do appear to have excellent technical capability in this area.
However,
> your client manners suck bigtime.
<snip>
>
> Rod
What part about my comment "we dont suck up" did you misread.
Miro
Newsy
I don't think I misread any of your post(s)
My comments were directed at the way you have alienated people on the ng.
Regardless of whether you are the best in the world at what you do, or not,
you do not win clients by talking down at them with a holier than thou
attitude.
You don't have to suck up to anyone in the ng. However, I have always
operated on the adage of treatig others in the manner in which I would like
to be treated. This includes respect for their opinions. Even when you think
they are wildly wrong.
Unfortunatey, this seems to be an adage that has been sorely missing from
this and other ng's over the last few months (In my opinion the abuse seems
to have become worse lately)
I think that it is exceptionally difficult to change someones opinion on a
ng - I've given up trying.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Rod
>
Miro
> My comments were directed at the way you have alienated people on the ng.
> Regardless of whether you are the best in the world at what you do, or
not,
> you do not win clients by talking down at them with a holier than thou
> attitude.
> You don't have to suck up to anyone in the ng. However, I have always
> operated on the adage of treatig others in the manner in which I would
like
> to be treated. This includes respect for their opinions. Even when you
think
> they are wildly wrong.
Perfectly happy to alienate people that want to talk about me and not
products. As for how I wish to be treated, I would say factual and to the
point. However I did step in when I felt that someone misquoted the
"meaning" of certain concepts. There is enough confusion already and
diffusing it is worthwhile in the long term.
As for winning clients through this newsgroup, I should think not, should
probably make it clear that newsgroups are for chats and not commercial
gain, in my experience. Only an idiot would invest so much time and energy
in a public forum and expect to make money out of it - how does that work ?
My suggestion is that you not confuse the desire to debate with the desire
to profit. To some people it seems totally absurd to make a living from this
NG. In fact it is a sink, for time and ideas.
We make money because we dont BS, pad quotes and seldom if ever get the
budgets wrong. I dont know many in this NG that wouldnt say PFFFTT to my
estimates. Thinking I was making a squillion, only to find out in the end
the guy that quotes less is dead wrong. All of my current clients are those
that put me in second place on a big job, long ago, only to find that my
quote was spot on by the end of the job. Then comes all the BS about
variations and things nobody knew about ..... as if.
Someone bright enough to work out what they need is up to the challenge of
being questioned over planning and allowances. I have helped many people
educate themselves over the years and it seems to me that the willing like
to be challenged. What you are sensitive about is that I didnt sugar coat
the information and hopefully score some kind of job from someone else.
That's hardly an issue for me to deal with, the last thing I need is a
client that knows more about my job than I do, or even worse, the kind that
want the information and then get a "cheaper" quote.
Let's assume that I make a living by doing something other than talking. Its
a great thing to stand on top of a mound of sand with a blueprint and switch
on the final result several months later. The client realises about a year
after moving in that it was all planned on top of that sand mound. BTW, I
dont deal with home owners that often, past the first stage, I deal with pig
headed stubborn SOB's builders that dont believe anything.
"Why do you need 14 ducts to the pool house "
" Why do you need a cable trench under the garage"
" Why do you need 6 tubes in the cavity of the front door"
" Is this the only way we can run power underground."
" Why cant yo bury the phone lines next to the power lines"
" We dont need lights on the garage walls."
" We wont dig this trench ..... its wrong"
" Why cant we put the pool heater under the pool"
" Why does the alarm have so many sensors"
The list is endless.
Let's stick to asking questions ......
Newsy
>
> Perfectly happy to alienate people that want to talk about me and not
> products. As for how I wish to be treated, I would say factual and to the
> point. However I did step in when I felt that someone misquoted the
> "meaning" of certain concepts. There is enough confusion already and
> diffusing it is worthwhile in the long term.
Agreed
>
> As for winning clients through this newsgroup, I should think not, should
> probably make it clear that newsgroups are for chats and not commercial
> gain, in my experience. Only an idiot would invest so much time and energy
> in a public forum and expect to make money out of it - how does that work
?
>
> My suggestion is that you not confuse the desire to debate with the desire
> to profit. To some people it seems totally absurd to make a living from
this
> NG. In fact it is a sink, for time and ideas.
I certainly don't have any illusions about the comercial possibilities of
the ng. However, your desire to debate at times borders on the obsessive -
when the op has made a decision you have continued to rant.
I coouldn't agree more about the "sink, for time and ideas" tho.
>
> We make money because we dont BS, pad quotes and seldom if ever get the
> budgets wrong. I dont know many in this NG that wouldnt say PFFFTT to my
> estimates. Thinking I was making a squillion, only to find out in the end
> the guy that quotes less is dead wrong.
I have been through this many times as well, and people like us will
continue to meet this resistance and incredulity on the bottom line. It's a
sad fact of life that there are many "experts", and so few people who
actually "know".
All of my current clients are those
> that put me in second place on a big job, long ago, only to find that my
> quote was spot on by the end of the job. Then comes all the BS about
> variations and things nobody knew about ..... as if.
>
> Someone bright enough to work out what they need is up to the challenge of
> being questioned over planning and allowances. I have helped many people
> educate themselves over the years and it seems to me that the willing like
> to be challenged. What you are sensitive about is that I didnt sugar coat
> the information and hopefully score some kind of job from someone else.
Not sensitive at all - just questioning the response when the op went "the
other way".
> That's hardly an issue for me to deal with, the last thing I need is a
> client that knows more about my job than I do, or even worse, the kind
that
> want the information and then get a "cheaper" quote.
>
> Let's assume that I make a living by doing something other than talking.
Its
> a great thing to stand on top of a mound of sand with a blueprint and
switch
> on the final result several months later. The client realises about a year
> after moving in that it was all planned on top of that sand mound. BTW, I
> dont deal with home owners that often, past the first stage, I deal with
pig
> headed stubborn SOB's builders that dont believe anything.
Been there, done that as well. I do this on a commercial basis, not domestic
situations.
Your posts show that you know what you are talking about. This has never
been the reason for my post.
>
> "Why do you need 14 ducts to the pool house "
> " Why do you need a cable trench under the garage"
> " Why do you need 6 tubes in the cavity of the front door"
> " Is this the only way we can run power underground."
> " Why cant yo bury the phone lines next to the power lines"
> " We dont need lights on the garage walls."
> " We wont dig this trench ..... its wrong"
> " Why cant we put the pool heater under the pool"
> " Why does the alarm have so many sensors"
Why do we need 100 x RJ45 point in ONE Room
Why do we need to spend $50K on speech reinforcement in one room
Wont standard RG59 video cable do for high res computer images
Yes we all have our crosses to bear, and our builders and architects to deal
with.
Rod
Miro
of
> > being questioned over planning and allowances. I have helped many people
> > educate themselves over the years and it seems to me that the willing
like
> > to be challenged. What you are sensitive about is that I didnt sugar
coat
> > the information and hopefully score some kind of job from someone else.
>
> Not sensitive at all - just questioning the response when the op went "the
> other way".
>
Hmmm, was questioning the validity of the reasons given in public. Could not
say it mattered on a deeper level. It may have been a case of shorthand
explaining that didnt say the right things.
Currently quoting on a job to renovate an occupied building where all the
apartments are wired for TV with fishing line. RG11 was only a joke to the
installer. No sat or Pay-tv / cable modem either. The occupants got a quote
for $10,000 and mine for the extra 0. Mine made more sense though, this
client wants it fixed not looked at. Some rooms do not have phone services
..... nice eh.
Spend most of my life with a mop fixing the cheaper quotes for 2X the
difference. Seen all the tricks and all the contracts for getting it done.
Hence my rule, blow your nose on the cheap quote and light your BBQ with the
highest one.
M
Newsy
> > > Someone bright enough to work out what they need is up to the
challenge
> of
> > > being questioned over planning and allowances. I have helped many
people
> > > educate themselves over the years and it seems to me that the willing
> like
> > > to be challenged. What you are sensitive about is that I didnt sugar
> coat
> > > the information and hopefully score some kind of job from someone
else.
> >
> > Not sensitive at all - just questioning the response when the op went
"the
> > other way".
> >
>
> Hmmm, was questioning the validity of the reasons given in public. Could
not
> say it mattered on a deeper level. It may have been a case of shorthand
> explaining that didnt say the right things.
Not questioning the validity of the reasons - once the decision is made it
sounds like sour grapes more often than not to respond to the "published"
reasons. I have been guilty of this in the past, and had to learn the hard
way.
>
> Currently quoting on a job to renovate an occupied building where all the
> apartments are wired for TV with fishing line. RG11 was only a joke to the
> installer. No sat or Pay-tv / cable modem either. The occupants got a
quote
> for $10,000 and mine for the extra 0. Mine made more sense though, this
> client wants it fixed not looked at. Some rooms do not have phone
services
> ..... nice eh.
>
> Spend most of my life with a mop fixing the cheaper quotes for 2X the
> difference. Seen all the tricks and all the contracts for getting it done.
> Hence my rule, blow your nose on the cheap quote and light your BBQ with
the
> highest one.
Got told some years back that we were too expensive - the competition is
still doing AV jobs for $45 an hour in a regional city, whilst we have a
national business! There is a very valid reason for sticking to your guns,
but you also have to learn when to bow out.
I find I do not have the time to fight the ones which are unwinnable!
Good luck with the building renovation:~)
Rod
>
> M
>
>
>
>
Miro
> not
> > say it mattered on a deeper level. It may have been a case of shorthand
> > explaining that didnt say the right things.
>
> Not questioning the validity of the reasons - once the decision is made it
> sounds like sour grapes more often than not to respond to the "published"
> reasons. I have been guilty of this in the past, and had to learn the hard
> way.
>
I'm the guy with the mop remember. I cringe at the sight of someone posting
info from a brochure. I question it since it needs to make more sense. Then
again I doesnt really matter at all. ........."C-Bus is more domestic and
Dynalite is more industrial"........... I suppose then the conveyor belt in
the kitchen will run better with Dynalite. Not to metion the coal loader
just above the metal crusher out back. You can never have too much value add
to a house.
The truth is, the last time Dynalite saw a factory is when it was being
made. So that must be what set me off. Its a natural mistake but it sounds
like pure nonsense to me. We go for egg-shell thin carbon fibre Ferrari's
and lighting systems used at BHP. Apples with apples please.
> Got told some years back that we were too expensive - the competition is
> still doing AV jobs for $45 an hour in a regional city, whilst we have a
> national business! There is a very valid reason for sticking to your guns,
> but you also have to learn when to bow out.
> I find I do not have the time to fight the ones which are unwinnable!
No fight is ever worth winning. Life is too short ...... why did you go
national ? Sheesh .... talk about ulcers.
Newsy
>>
> No fight is ever worth winning. Life is too short ...... why did you go
> national ? Sheesh .... talk about ulcers.
In my case it was a matter of niche market with a national focus, rather
than trying to be all things to all men. In fact - less ulcers cause we
don't have to fight for the work against all the so-called "experts" out
there, cause our clients have been burnt too many times before. We have
remained small by focussing. It is more managable being three, rather than
the fifteen we used to be when doing state-wide work.
Rod
>
>