Better to use separate cables? Or better to use a bundle?
m...@privacy.net
actually a "bundle" of cables. It contained two runs of RG6 and two
runs of CAt5e.....al enclosed in a plastic sheath. Needless to say
the cable was abt 3/4" inch in diameter.
The salesman at HD said there wasn't any price advantage in buying the
all-in-one cable.... that mainly it is a convenience factor when
building a house.
My question to al is....would YOU use such an all-in-one bundle? Or
would you still use separate runs of each....when say building a new
home?
Advice?
Lucas Tam
> My question to al is....would YOU use such an all-in-one bundle? Or
> would you still use separate runs of each....when say building a new
> home?
Like the Home Depot guy said - it doesn't really matter.
For a new house it doesn't matter - since the walls are all opened. In that
case, separate cables maybe cheaper. Also, if there is a bad cable run,
individual cables will be easier and cheaper to replace rather than a big
bundle of cables.
--
Lucas Tam (REMOV...@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
BruceR
justified. You'll also still run a bunch of individual cables because
the you'll need more or less at different locations.
m...@privacy.net
>justified. You'll also still run a bunch of individual cables because
>the you'll need more or less at different locations.
OK.... sounds like it bets NOT to go with the bundle then. Correct?
Robert L. Bass
As a general rule, no. I prefer to run individual cables. It's almost
always less expensive. It's easier to pull as the large diameter bundled
cables tend to grab the wood more than individual cables -- even a group of
them -- when you're pulling through drilled holes. Also, the bend radius of
bundled cable needs to be based on the diameter of the entire bundle. This
makes it more of a hassle to work with bundled cable and with no real
benefit.
The other issue for me is that bundled cable is not as flexible a medium.
You don't need 2xCAT5 + 2xRG6QS for your telephone jacks. One or at most 2
CAT5 cables are sufficient. You also don't need the 2+2 cable at most
remote entertainment outlets. One CAT5 and one or two RG6 is sufficient for
most such locations.
OTOH, there are places where you will want more than the 2+2 in the typical
bundled cable. Your home theater or entertainment center(s) will use more
of each type. A PC may need 3 CAT5: phone, LAN + whatever and only one may
require an RG6 for the cable modem.
I like structured cable centers like OnQ, Leviton, OpenHouse, etc., for
homes because they provide a neat, orderly and (big for WAF and resale
value) unintimidating place to configure everything. For cables and
outlets, I prefer to use individual components so I can build exactly what I
need into the system. YMMV.
BTW, I sell these systems online in case anyone's interested.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Robert L. Bass
Correct
m...@privacy.net
Great info Robert!
And thanks so much!
I will remember you when it comes time to buy supplies
Robert L. Bass
Thanks. :^)
Dan Irwin
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<UOKdnUFlAOE...@giganews.com>...
Robert L. Bass
I import product data sent to me every three months from ten distributors
and three manufacturers. You can find over 92,000 products from 400+
manufacturers on my websites. There are detailed product descriptions of
only about 12,000 of those products. The rest are done in small groups when
clients or suppliers request. As such there are numerous products listed
that I don't really prefer to use. Whenever anyone asks about bundled cable
I explain the same things I've said here. Most either buy individual cables
as suggested or find someone else more anxious to make the sale. :^)
Alarm Pro
news:ehfu509tgsaqg77i9...@4ax.com...
> >As a general rule, no. I prefer to run individual cables.
So do I most of the time but there are good reasons to run bundled cable
sometimes. Without details I can't tell if its right for you.
- Some builders will not let you run cables, their electrician has to do it.
The local ones here charge by the run. The bundled cable counts as 1 run,
not 4.
- Cat 5 can get damaged by ham fisted installers, such as when you hire the
electrician to run it for you. Its a lot harder to hurt bundled Cat 5
- It can be faster to run 1 large cable than 4 smaller ones.
I carry both on the truck. Sometimes its just the right stuff.
If you end up doing it yourself in a home being built make sure your have
the agreement of the builder and electrician. Make sure the right permits
were pulled and you know the rules about routing so it passes inspection.
> I will remember you when it comes time to buy supplies
As for prices, check your local supply places and on the net. On bulk
cable, Bobby's far from the best price.
Robert L. Bass
>
> So do I most of the time but there are good reasons
For example, if you want to charge the customer more money than the job is
worth you can sell him overpriced bundled cables.
> - Some builders will not let you run cables,
> their electrician has to do it.
Since it is virtually always easier, faster, cheaper and more flexible using
individual cables, there is no reason to push bundled cables. If one "local
electrician" charges an unfair price for individual cables hire another
electrician. It's th same thing with alarm installers. If one tries to
charge you for separate runs when there are four cables going to/from the
same location via the same route, get rid of him and hore someone honest.
> - Cat 5 can get damaged by ham fisted installers...
Ham fisted installers can damage bundled cable even more easily as it
requires even gentler (larger radius) bends than CAT5 or RG6. The idea
isn't to install something idiot proof. You have to get rid of the idiot
and install the right cable for the job yourself.
> such as when you hire the electrician to run it
> for you...
If he's not competent to do the job right, don't hire him at all.
> Its a lot harder to hurt bundled Cat 5
That is not correct. If you work with this stuff you'll learn that bundled
cable is no less susceptible to damage than any of its component parts.
> - It can be faster to run 1 large cable than 4 smaller ones.
Again, that is not true. Generally speaking, bundled "structured" cable
takes at least as long and often longer to install than individual cables.
It requires larger holes, significantly wider bend radii, etc. It also
tends to grab the holes as well as the inside of conduit more than
individual cables, even when the latter are drawn as a group. This is
because the surface contact area of a large diameter bundle is several times
that of the individual cables within a group.
> I carry both on the truck. Sometimes its just the right stuff.
Wrong. Bundled cable offers no advantages for the end user -- only
increased markup for the guys selling / installing it. Although I have it
available from several major brands which I carry online I invariably
recommend against it.
> If you end up doing it yourself in a home being
> built make sure your have the agreement of the
> builder and electrician...
Wrong again. You only need permission from the builder if it's not your
property. You don't need permission from other contractors in any case.
> Make sure the right permits were pulled and you
> know the rules about routing so it passes inspection.
Fortunately, the "rules about routing" are simple enough that even an "alarm
pro" can pull cables. There are innumerable FAQ's on the subject from
various manufacturers, dealers and HA afficianados from which the DIYer can
learn what is necessary to pull the cables correctly and pass inspection.
Some of the worst "structured cable" jobs I've ever seen were done by alarm
installers. Some of the best were actually homeowners.
>> I will remember you when it comes time to buy supplies
Thanks. If your order is greater than $125, shipping is free. With cable
that can mean a significant savings.
Alarm Pro
> >>>As a general rule, no. I prefer to run individual cables.
> >
> > So do I most of the time but there are good reasons
> > to run bundled cable sometimes...
>
> For example, if you want to charge the customer more money than the job is
> worth you can sell him overpriced bundled cables.
Well maybe you do that Bobby, but I price by the drop and choice of cable is
up to me. Sometimes it is a cheaper when I look at my overall cost.
> > - Some builders will not let you run cables,
> > their electrician has to do it.
>
> Since it is virtually always easier, faster, cheaper and more flexible
using
> individual cables, there is no reason to push bundled cables.
I pull rather than push cables. Works a lot better.
> If one "local
> electrician" charges an unfair price for individual cables hire another
> electrician. It's th same thing with alarm installers. If one tries to
> charge you for separate runs when there are four cables going to/from the
> same location via the same route, get rid of him and hore someone honest.
In a lot of tracts, the buyers have to use the tract subs. Many builders
even take a cut of whatever extras you get the subs to add. If its not his
property being built on by a general contractor he hired, he may not have a
lot of options, short of going elsewhere.
> > I carry both on the truck. Sometimes its just the right stuff.
> Wrong. Bundled cable offers no advantages for the end user -- only
> increased markup for the guys selling / installing it. Although I have it
> available from several major brands which I carry online I invariably
> recommend against it.
Tells me you must have higher markups on the single stuff
> > If you end up doing it yourself in a home being
> > built make sure your have the agreement of the
> > builder and electrician...
>
> Wrong again. You only need permission from the builder if it's not your
> property. You don't need permission from other contractors in any case.
Most of the homes being built these days are tract or spec homes. The
future owner does not own anything. Even if they have a contract on the
house, its still not their property.
Agreement and permission aren't the same thing. Assuming the builder will
even let the future owner do some of the LV wiring, he will still need to
work with the electrical guy. Best way is to do the LV stuff after the AC
stuff is in, especially in a tract house where there is an established
electrical buildout planned and costed. If he already owns the property, he
doesn't have a builder, he has general contractor he hired.
> > Make sure the right permits were pulled and you
> > know the rules about routing so it passes inspection.
>
> Fortunately, the "rules about routing" are simple enough
Never said otherwise. He just needs to understand them and some aren't
intuitive.
> If your order is greater than $125, shipping is free. With cable
> that can mean a significant savings.
He needs to look around. He will always be able to beat Basshome prices on
just about anything, especially high volume trade items like cable.
For the original guy: Builders aren't going to want you doing anything if
you don't own the property, especially a major. A small builder or a
general you've hired to build you a house on your property will be much
easier to work with. You got to work this kind of stuff out before you sign
anything.
Some electrical guys hate doing the kind of low voltage stuff HA guys want
and will gladly work with you so they don't have to do it. Others see it as
money out of their pocket and will go out of their way to make it hard for
you. Some will charge by the cable run. Some charge little for the cable
but lots if they terminate it. Variations are endless. Check the numbers
out carefully and do spreadsheets of the different options. Your time also
has value, especially if you are on commission or don't have paid vacations.
The right answer may surprise you.
Robert L. Bass
>> more money than the job is worth you can sell
>> him overpriced bundled cables.
>
Who is this "Bobby" fellow you keep referring to?
> but I price by the drop and choice of cable
> is up to me. Sometimes it is a cheaper when
> I look at my overall cost.
So you charge $$ per drop even when several cables are going to the same
place?
> I pull rather than push cables. Works a lot better.
If you knew the first thing about structured wiring you would know that you
have to do both. If you drag cables through multiple holes you're almost
certain to mess up the twist.
> In a lot of tracts, the buyers have to use the
> tract subs. Many builders even take a cut of
> whatever extras you get the subs to add...
And this justifies you pushing bundled cable when less expensive, easier to
install, more flexible, individual cables will do the job as well or better?
> If its not his property being built on by a general
> contractor he hired, he may not have a lot of
> options, short of going elsewhere.
One of the first things I discuss with a builder *before* signing anything
is the requirement that I be permitted to do my own low voltage work and/o
to hire my own subs for that work *without* interference from the GC. If
the builder is unwilling to accept that I suggest the home buyer do just
that -- go elsewhere.
>>> I carry both on the truck. Sometimes its just the right stuff.
>
>> Wrong. Bundled cable offers no advantages
>> for the end user -- only increased markup for
>> the guys selling / installing it. Although I have
>> it available from several major brands which I
>> carry online I invariably recommend against it.
>
> Tells me you must have higher markups on the single stuff
That comment, along with your repeated snipes, tells me you're not
interested in anything but starting an argument.
>>> If you end up doing it yourself in a home being
>>> built make sure your have the agreement of the
>>> builder and electrician...
>>
>> Wrong again. You only need permission from
>> the builder if it's not your property. You don't
>> need permission from other contractors in any
>> case.
>
> Most of the homes being built these days are tract
> or spec homes...
Perhaps in your little corner of the world that may be so. Where I live
there are at least as many custom builders as tract developers. Most of my
clients are not buying from US Home or Lennar.
> The future owner does not own anything...
Until he signs the contract he owns the right to negotiate his terms or walk
away. It's just like buying a car. If you're smart and you don't fall in
love with one vehicle you will be able to negotiate a good deal. If you're
easily taken in you will get only what the builder is willing to allow.
> Even if they have a contract on the
> house, its still not their property.
Even with tract homes around here (Sarasota) the buyer often owns the
property *before* the home is built.
> Agreement and permission aren't the same thing.
Get it in writing or it means nothing.
> Assuming the builder will even let the future owner
> do some of the LV wiring, he will still need to work
> with the electrical guy.
He'll need to have the electrician supply outlets where he wants them. The
builder will charge him for having the electrician do it. If he wants a
special wiring topology he'll pay the builder for that, too. He will *not*
need the electrician's permission to do his LV work. That is between buyer
and builder.
> Best way is to do the LV stuff after the AC
> stuff is in, especially in a tract house where
> there is an established electrical buildout
> planned and costed. If he already owns the
> property, he doesn't have a builder, he has
> general contractor he hired.
Wrong again. In many cases the title to the land is transferred so that the
builder can unburden himself of the cost of the construction loan. He's
still a GC but the property belongs to the buyer. In any case, the buyer
does not need any other contractor's permission to do anything. Please
don't post misleading information. You do a disservice to the readers.
>>> Make sure the right permits were pulled and you
>>> know the rules about routing so it passes inspection.
>>
>> Fortunately, the "rules about routing" are simple enough
>
> Never said otherwise...
You have tried to make it appear much more complicated than it is. This is
typical of "install only" dealers.
>> If your order is greater than $125, shipping is free.
>> With cable that can mean a significant savings.
> For the original guy: Builders aren't going ...
The previous poster has personal issues with me due to disagreements which
started in alt.cesspool.alarms. His posts here are aimed not at informing
but at antagonizing. A little Google search will back this up.
Starwolf
Alarm Pro
> >> For example, if you want to charge the customer
> >> more money than the job is worth you can sell
> >> him overpriced bundled cables.
> >
> > Well maybe you do that Bobby...
>
> Who is this "Bobby" fellow you keep referring to?
You
> > but I price by the drop and choice of cable
> > is up to me. Sometimes it is a cheaper when
> > I look at my overall cost.
>
> So you charge $$ per drop even when several cables are
> going to the same place?
> And this justifies you pushing bundled cable when
> less expensive, easier to install, more flexible,
> individual cables will do the job as well or better?
I charge by the jack for extra low voltage stuff in a tract home. That
includes termination, plates and testing. Easy for builders to price. If the
buyer wants lots of extras, I do a custom quote which will be cheaper. The
cable choice is mine and does not cost the buyer extra. Like I keep telling
you, we figure that sometimes bundled cable is cheaper overall.
> > If its not his property being built on by a general
> > contractor he hired, he may not have a lot of
> > options, short of going elsewhere.
>
> One of the first things I discuss with a builder *before*
> signing anything is the requirement that I be permitted
> to do my own low voltage work and/o to hire my own subs
> for that work *without* interference from the GC.
> If the builder is unwilling to accept that I suggest
> the home buyer do just that -- go elsewhere.
Right now its a builder's market pretty much nationwide, cause of the low
interest rates. They don't need to accept non standard requests from buyers
for anything, not just for extra wiring. The tracts all sell out just the
same. Local custom builders are backed up a year or more. A guy wanting a
new middle class house may not really have a lot of choice.
> >>> I carry both on the truck. Sometimes its just the right stuff.
> >
> >> Wrong. Bundled cable offers no advantages
> >> for the end user -- only increased markup for
> >> the guys selling / installing it. Although I have
> >> it available from several major brands which I
> >> carry online I invariably recommend against it.
> >
> > Tells me you must have higher markups on the single stuff
>
> That comment, along with your repeated snipes, tells me you're not
> interested in anything but starting an argument.
No snipes here friend, just the more complete picture of what is involved in
doing supplemental wiring in a new tract home. Also nothing wrong with
telling the readers that you are not the only source for the stuff you push
and they could find wire and cable near them for less.
> > Most of the homes being built these days are tract
> > or spec homes...
>
> Perhaps in your little corner of the world that may be
> so. Where I live there are at least as many custom
> builders as tract developers. Most of my
> clients are not buying from US Home or Lennar.
Most of the building in Florida and elsewhere is being done in tracts, most
likely even in Sarasota. Its also a builder's market, with most tracts
selling out quickly. Norm Mungford could get you the official Florida stats.
I do work for about 10 builders. All the tract guys work about the same
way, big or little.
> Please don't post misleading information.
> You do a disservice to the readers.
Actually Bobby I am pointing out to potential novice buyers how hard it is
to add their own stuff in a tract home being built. You be surprised how
many people don't know that. See it all the time at jobsites. Really upsets
them. Not telling the readers not to do it, just that it needs to be worked
out up front and not to expect a lot of support. Thats the real world out
there.
> The previous poster has personal issues with me due to
> disagreements which started in alt.cesspool.alarms.
> His posts here are aimed not at informing but at
> antagonizing. A little Google search will back this up.
I'll do you one better, here is the link to all my posts:
http://groups.google.com/groups?&as_ugroup=alt.security.alarms&as_uauthors=Alarm%20Pro&filter=0
No disagreements that I can see. Real issue here is that Bobby does not
want it known here that there are lots of places to buy the things he pushes
cheaper, like local suppliers, Worthington, and the other HA places.
For the original guy: Builders aren't going to want you doing anything if
you don't own the property, especially a major. A small builder or a
general you've hired to build you a house on your property will be much
easier to work with. Don't expect it to be welcomed, but you should be able
to work something out. Best to figure on using the tract subs unless it a
true custom. Make sure its all in writing. When comparing prices, check
the numbers out carefully and do spreadsheets of the different options.
Don't forget your time also has value, especially if you are on commission
or don't have paid vacations. Finally bulk material like cable should be
cheaper locally if you look around.
Robert L. Bass
>
> You
Only my frinds use my nickname. You are not a friend.
> I charge by the jack for extra low voltage stuff in a
> tract home. That includes termination, plates and
> testing.
I only charge for the hardware. Labor is free. :^)
>> One of the first things I discuss with a builder *before*
>> signing anything is the requirement that I be permitted
>> to do my own low voltage work and/o to hire my own subs
>> for that work *without* interference from the GC.
>> If the builder is unwilling to accept that I suggest
>> the home buyer do just that -- go elsewhere.
>
> Right now its a builder's market pretty much nationwide...
Bullshit! I can walk into a dozen different developments withing 10 minutes
of my home and at least ten of the builders will negotiate an agreement
where I or my chosen subs do the low voltage work. I know because when I
first started looking for a home here that is what I did. As it happens I
bought an existing home but now we're starting to look for a bigger place.
The next one will be custom built and I will do the low voltage wiring
myself. The builders I'm considering are among the most successful in the
county.
Because I've been in the trade for so many years I know what to insist upon
in a construction contract.
> cause of the low interest rates.
If you're mainly dealing with low end tract homes, forget negotiating
anything. With mid- to high-priced, custom homes the buyer can almost
always negotiate for what he wants *before* he signs. Once you give the
downpayment, negotiation takes on an aura more like that of a serf pleading
with the king for a spare loaf of bread. :^)
>> That comment, along with your repeated snipes,
>> tells me you're not interested in anything but
>> starting an argument.
>
> No snipes here friend...
We're not friends, pal. :^)
> Most of the building in Florida and elsewhere is being
> done in tracts, most likely even in Sarasota....
I'll give you an example of what we consider "tract" housing around here.
http://www.lakewoodranchliving.com/Listings.aspx?FileName=ourfeaturedhomes.x
There are also (unfortunately) Lennar and US Home, both of which are more
like the kind of builders you apparently are accustomed to working for.
> Norm Mungford...
How freudian. :^)
> could get you the official Florida stats.
I deal with DIYers every day. My business caters to DIY. I've been in the
trade for over 26 years and I know for a fact that your claims are nonsense.
Sure there are a few builders who won't allow home buyers to do anything.
But if you deal with the issue before signing the vast majority will agree.
Most will have you sign waivers to the effect that if you get hurt it's your
problem and that if you screw something up you have to pay for it.
> I do work for about 10 builders.
Having read your comments before I don't really give much credence to
anything you say.
>> Please don't post misleading information.
>> You do a disservice to the readers.
>
> ... I am pointing out to potential novice buyers
> how hard it is to add their own stuff in a tract
> home being built...
As a paid installer you have an axe to grind. DIYers don't pay people like
you to do what they can do for themselves at a significant savings. Also,
since they don't have to accept the limited number of products you offer,
they can obtain a system which fits their needs -- not whatever "package
deal" you or your boss happen to be offering that week.
> You be surprised...
You'd be surprised how many people successfully install their own security
and home automation systems every day. I sell about three to four systems a
day, seven days a week, 365 days a year and I own just one small online
business. My sales are not even one tenth what the big online dealers do
(although my prices are better than almost all of them and I give better
support than many, despite your repeated claims to the contrary).
Alarm Pro
> > I charge by the jack for extra low voltage stuff in a
> > tract home. That includes termination, plates and
> > testing.
>
> I only charge for the hardware. Labor is free.
I have people who tought about DIY but had me do it since the figured out it
was cheaper when they considered unused material, new tools, and time
required. They understood that even their labor is never free. The new
home buyer needs to fully understand all costs. You don't help them do
that.
> > Right now its a builder's market pretty much nationwide...
>
> Bullshit! I can walk into a dozen different developments withing 10
minutes
> of my home and at least ten of the builders will negotiate an agreement
> where I or my chosen subs do the low voltage work. I know because when I
> first started looking for a home here that is what I did. As it happens I
> bought an existing home but now we're starting to look for a bigger place.
> The next one will be custom built and I will do the low voltage wiring
> myself. The builders I'm considering are among the most successful in the
> county.
Sarasota must be unique then. Its certainly not the national practice.
Every builder I work with, high end custom to middle class tracts, locals to
nationals discourages or forbids buyers from doing their own work. Its the
industry norm. Liability, delays and disruptions, inspection issues, and
all that. Since you are unlicensed, you will need to find an electrician
willing to cover you and get the permits. Good luck.
> I deal with DIYers every day. My business caters to DIY. I've been in
the
> trade for over 26 years and I know for a fact that your claims are
nonsense.
> Sure there are a few builders who won't allow home buyers to do anything.
> But if you deal with the issue before signing the vast majority will
agree.
> Most will have you sign waivers to the effect that if you get hurt it's
your
> problem and that if you screw something up you have to pay for it.
You are clearly out of touch with the current approaches to residential home
building.
> > I do work for about 10 builders.
>
> Having read your comments before I don't really give much credence to
> anything you say.
You find offering alternative opinions and options that offensive?
> >> Please don't post misleading information.
> >> You do a disservice to the readers.
> >
> > ... I am pointing out to potential novice buyers
> > how hard it is to add their own stuff in a tract
> > home being built...
>
> As a paid installer you have an axe to grind. DIYers don't pay people
like
> you to do what they can do for themselves at a significant savings. Also,
> since they don't have to accept the limited number of products you offer,
> they can obtain a system which fits their needs -- not whatever "package
> deal" you or your boss happen to be offering that week.
Can you show anything that I have said that is against DIY? Giving them a
heads up of what they are walking into helps them, not hurts them. Like
you most people have never bought a home from a new home builder. Tracts
aren't big buck customs. Builders do business the way they do to protect
themselves and maintain a profit. Letting a DIYer know not to expect much
if any support for doing their own work is stuff they need to know. You
certainly don't tell them about it. I see it a lot homes already under
contract and then the buyer wants to add stuff himself. They get real
disappointed. Telling people to work it out ahead of time and in writing is
important. You don't and some of those disappointed people I have talked to
have been your customers!
> You'd be surprised how many people successfully install their own security
> and home automation systems every day. I sell about three to four systems
a
> day, seven days a week, 365 days a year and I own just one small online
> business. My sales are not even one tenth what the big online dealers do
> (although my prices are better than almost all of them and I give better
> support than many, despite your repeated claims to the contrary).
Never said anything about your size or your support, just your pricing. So
lets look at it on the new Elk Panel you have been so hot on. New
Worthington catalog page 51. M-1 System 3 Package (Panel with a Keypad,
speakers, RJ31, Transformer and Battery) is 395.95 from them and $640 from
you. Additional keypads are $99.95 from them and $145 from you. Thats
pretty hefty. Now on the bulk stuff, lets try Genesis at CAT-5e: $51.37 for
Worthington, $57.00 for you. I can beat either of these by a bit locally.
Network kits on Ebay like may be an even better deal for the DIYer. Your
prices are better than Smarthome, but there are many choices for the DIYer
that are lower cost than you are.
Finally Bobby, let me give you a suggestion for a new FAQ. "How to work
with your new home builder". Selling DIYers equipment, tools, and telling
them how to do it is less than half the story in new construction. Write
the FAQ and I will be glad to comment on it for you, since clearly you are
not up to date on how things are done in residential construction industry.
You owe your customers and the people here the full story if you are going
to take their money.
Robert L. Bass
--
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
"Alarm Pro" <nospam@theAlarmPro> wrote in message
news:862f8ae79787a576...@news.teranews.com...
Nope. Sarasota is typical of many upscale, developing cities. Sure, there
are a few tract developers like USH and Lennar who make cheap, cookie cutter
houses cutting every corner imaginable. Those companies won't allow the
homeowner to do anythying. OTOH, there are numerous top quality contractors
around building fine, custom homes.
If you cater to the bottom end of the market I can understand why you don't
know about better contractors. Explaining this to you is like trying to
teach manners to the MM. It's just not part of your experience set.
> Every builder I work with...
Both of them?
> Since you are unlicensed, you will need to find an electrician
> willing to cover you and get the permits. Good luck.
That is more "alarm installer" hogwash. The home buyer does not need a
license and he doesn't need to get an electrician to "cover" anything. I've
been catering to DIYers for more than 26 years and I can assure you that is
simply a falsehood often repeated by paid alarm installers.
> You are clearly out of touch with the current
> approaches to residential home building.
Uh-huh. I sell well over a thousand systems a year to DIYers. All of the
other online firms selling alarms and home automation systems every day to
literally thousands of people all over the country must also be completely
out of touch with the "currecnt approaches to 'residential home' (that's
another one for the Department of Redundancy Department) building. Or...
you're completely FOS.
>>> I do work for about 10 builders.
>>
>> Having read your comments before I don't really
>> give much credence to anything you say.
>
> You find offering alternative opinions and options
> that offensive?
I said nothing about you being offensive. I said I give little credence to
your claims. In simpler terms, I don't believe you.
>> As a paid installer you have an axe to grind.
>> DIYers don't pay people like you to do what
>> they can do for themselves at a significant
>> savings. Also, since they don't have to accept
>> the limited number of products you offer,
>> they can obtain a system which fits their needs
>> -- not whatever "package deal" you or your
>> boss happen to be offering that week.
>
> Can you show anything that I have said that is
> against DIY?
Need I?
> Giving them a heads up of what they are walking
> into helps them, not hurts them....
More accurately, I give them an opportunity to walk away from folks like
you.
> Like you most people have never bought a home
> from a new home builder...
As though you have any idea what I have purchased. :^)
> Tracts aren't big buck customs.
Baseline tract homes are rarely purchased by the folks who order from me.
If that is the extent of your marketplace I can understand how you would
have no knowledge of custom homes.
> Builders do business ...
> --- snip nonsense ---
> Telling people to work it out ahead of time and in writing is
> important. You don't...
That's a lie and you know it! Here are but a few of the times when I have
advised DIYers to discuss their plans before signing:
http://tinyurl.com/2ga32
http://tinyurl.com/2839b
http://tinyurl.com/2qb2o
Chuck Yerkes
Or take it off line or to AIM or whatever.
Nobody here, cept you two, care. And I'll bet you 2 don't
even care.
to your rooms. Both of you. Time for a timeout.
You may have dessert afterwards if you behave.
Frank Olson
news:9Nt9c.21098$w54.149943@attbi_s01...
ROFL!!!
Frank Olson
news:862f8ae79787a576...@news.teranews.com...
> Finally Bobby, let me give you a suggestion for a new FAQ. "How to work
> with your new home builder". Selling DIYers equipment, tools, and telling
> them how to do it is less than half the story in new construction. Write
> the FAQ and I will be glad to comment on it for you, since clearly you are
> not up to date on how things are done in residential construction industry.
I've got a better idea... You write it and I'll post it at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/faqs.htm.
Alarm Pro
> "Alarm Pro" <nospam@theAlarmPro> wrote in message
> news:862f8ae79787a576...@news.teranews.com...
> > "Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:8o2dnVX6_JD...@giganews.com...
> >
> > > > I charge by the jack for extra low voltage stuff in a
> > > > tract home. That includes termination, plates and
> > > > testing.
> > >
> > > I only charge for the hardware. Labor is free.
> >
contractors
> around building fine, custom homes.
What you state goes against everything I see on a daily basis and read in
the
industry pubs. You should insist that your customers talk to their builder
to understand what they will be able to do. Some haven't to their sorrow.
> That is more "alarm installer" hogwash. The home buyer does not need a
> license and he doesn't need to get an electrician to "cover" anything.
I've
> been catering to DIYers for more than 26 years and I can assure you that
is
> simply a falsehood often repeated by paid alarm installers.
During new construction in most jurisdictions low voltage permits are
required. Covers things like TV, phone, security, and networks, and
integral low voltage lighting. I have seen homes fail inspection over low
voltage wiring too.
> > You are clearly out of touch with the current
> > approaches to residential home building.
>
> Uh-huh. I sell well over a thousand systems a year to DIYers. All of the
> other online firms selling alarms and home automation systems every day to
> literally thousands of people all over the country must also be completely
> out of touch with the "currecnt approaches to 'residential home' (that's
> another one for the Department of Redundancy Department) building. Or...
> you're completely FOS
What percentage are retrofits? How many actually get installed?
> > Can you show anything that I have said that is
> > against DIY?
>
> Need I?
Only if you want to speak the truth.
> > Giving them a heads up of what they are walking
> > into helps them, not hurts them....
>
> More accurately, I give them an opportunity to walk away from folks like
> you.
Actually its the builder they walk from, who then sells it almost
immediately to the next person.
> > Like you most people have never bought a home
> > from a new home builder...
>
> As though you have any idea what I have purchased. :^)
You have lived your life out on the net as much as any reality show,
assuming what you post is truthful.
> > Telling people to work it out ahead of time and in writing is
> > important. You don't...
>
> That's a lie and you know it! Here are but a few of the times when I have
> advised DIYers to discuss their plans before signing:
Could not tell that by the customers of yours I personally have had to tell
they can't install what you sold them since they did not understand the
contract they signed with the builder.
Alarm Pro
news:9Nt9c.21098$w54.149943@attbi_s01...
>
> Or take it off line or to AIM or whatever.
Good call. I'll do that, even let Bobby have the last word (which he surely
will). Would have even skipped my last post but was reading in order.
I got going on this since what he is posting as absolute was wrong. There
are times where bundled is the right and lower cost answer. Full cost can
be elusive and having a DIYer understand the full cost is not in his
interest.
He also repetitively trashes other vendors like Worthington whose prices are
lower than his. They won't respond to him in public, but some of us do know
the whole story.
Bobby will never respond to price comparisons and cuts them out of any
response he posts. Worthington is making a fair profit on everything they
sell. He wants 40% or more on top of that. Look at the price differences
on the Elk panel. Even a newbie DIYer can do better than that.
His views on the new home construction industry are out of date and hurtful
to the DIYer buying a new home. Several of his clients have been more than
disappointed when they spoke to me at jobsites. Don't know if he took the
stuff back or it went on Ebay.
Bobby has pretty much chased all the pros out of CHA. Southern, Frank
Olson, and I seem to be the only ones contributing regularly. We don't make
any money by posting here but its how Bobby makes his living. He has the
time and its in his economic interest to drown out those who offer
alternative opinions and purchase options. The DIY community is ill served
hearing only his view which is clearly colored by his pocketbook.
Nuff said. I will stick around and contribute as time is available.
Chuck Yerkes
quit the line after "good call").
I've been reading this group on and off for around 8-9 years. And
Mr Bass is one of several regular resources making an effort to
contribute.
You have issues? Contribute then. And no snide comments about others.
I will take moment to point to the RFD and voting archived at:
http://open-systems.ufl.edu/mirrors/ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/comp/comp.home.automation
Alarm Pro wrote:
> "Chuck Yerkes" <New...@Mar2004.NOSPAMsnew.com> wrote in message
> news:9Nt9c.21098$w54.149943@attbi_s01...
>
>>Good lord, end it.
>>
>>Or take it off line or to AIM or whatever.
>
>
> Good call. I'll do that, even let Bobby have the last word (which he surely
> will). Would have even skipped my last post but was reading in order.
>
> I got going on this since what he is posting as absolute was wrong. There
> are times where bundled is the right and lower cost answer. Full cost can
...